svideomodTG16DuoSupergrafxetc.webp
svideomodTG16DuoSupergrafxetc.png (https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/customs/svideomodTG16DuoSupergrafxetc.png)
In similar fashion to the Sony CX one I did for my old crusty site. :wink:
You know, I wanted to point out, and this includes s-video mods regarding the Genesis, etc also, that even if your Tv DOES NOT support S-Video input, the mod is still worth doing. You can use a decent small S-video to Composite adapter like they sell online and at Radio Shack, and the picture quality from that Composite output will still be better then the native Composite output signal provided by the system in most cases. It still wont be as good as s-video, but the picture will still be a notch sharper, and the shimmering effect you see on sprites and objects during screen movement will still be reduced a noticeable amount. Just something to think about for all those stuck with Composite only input on CRT and LCD sets but who still desire improvement in picture quality.
(screen caps comparing composite and svideo on this mod can be found here:
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?msg=280373)
Keep in mind, ymmv.
No need to solder straight to the ic pin. I soldered to the surface mount resistor that the trace connects to you'll get a much bigger spot to solder with doing that.
Quote from: Drakon on 09/13/2012, 06:19 PMNo need to solder straight to the ic pin. I soldered to the surface mount resistor that the trace connects to you'll get a much bigger spot to solder with doing that.
Yeah I noticed too that between the Tg16 on that pin and on Pce Duo-R that the TG had a bit more/wider soldering area then the other system on pin 40 to attach to on that pin if you decide to solder there, so the pin spot on the TG-16 is easy to use. But in general, as long as you solder on something leading to that pin then it works. If I remember right too the Duo-R has a tiny solder blob leading off of a trace to pin 40 that is very close by, so you can solder on to that too if need be. If you don't have steady hands I'd def recommend finding a spot leading to the pin to attach to, or use a very fine point soldering iron.
Basically why I didn't bother posting any pic of any wires actually soldered to the pin directly, as the layout seems to vary some between systems. Everyone is just going to have to choose the spot leading to the pin that works best for them. Some people will want to attach directly, some wont.
Awesome, can't wait to try it out on my TG-16
Great diagram. Makes me wish I hadn't already A/V modded my TG16. If I hadn't I would have totally done this S-Video mod. Oh well, maybe in the future I'll add it.
The two of you need to keep up the good work. idiots like me need these diagrams to keep from blowing things up.
Quote from: HercTNT on 09/13/2012, 11:38 PMThe two of you need to keep up the good work. idiots like me need these diagrams to keep from blowing things up.
I get worried when someone who can't read diagrams tries to mod it themselves. I always prefer the idea of hiring an experienced modder. I get clients frying a lot of expensive hardware because they wanted to try stuff themselves. Even when I started modding I sat down and learned how to read simple shematics before doing the actual mods.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 09/13/2012, 06:37 PMQuote from: Drakon on 09/13/2012, 06:19 PMNo need to solder straight to the ic pin. I soldered to the surface mount resistor that the trace connects to you'll get a much bigger spot to solder with doing that.
Yeah I noticed too that between the Tg16 on that pin and on Pce Duo-R that the TG had a bit more/wider soldering area then the other system on pin 40 to attach to on that pin if you decide to solder there, so the pin spot on the TG-16 is easy to use. But in general, as long as you solder on something leading to that pin then it works. If I remember right too the Duo-R has a tiny solder blob leading off of a trace to pin 40 that is very close by, so you can solder on to that too if need be. If you don't have steady hands I'd def recommend finding a spot leading to the pin to attach to, or use a very fine point soldering iron.
Basically why I didn't bother posting any pic of any wires actually soldered to the pin directly, as the layout seems to vary some between systems. Everyone is just going to have to choose the spot leading to the pin that works best for them. Some people will want to attach directly, some wont.
Yeah I understand why you did it this way. When I first posted my improved 32x s-video mod one guy was so non steady he took off the solder pad when removing the 0 ohm resistor and wasn't able to solder to the ic pin. If he hadn't removed the solder pad he could have used that which would have been much easier, but it's certainly not impossible to solder to the pin on the ic, it's just more annoying. Also if the duo doesn't have the expansion port maybe you should show which pin is 5v on something easy to show in a picture like the power regulator?
Quote from: Drakon on 09/14/2012, 06:50 AMI get worried when someone who can't read diagrams tries to mod it themselves. I always prefer the idea of hiring an experienced modder. I get clients frying a lot of expensive hardware because they wanted to try stuff themselves. Even when I started modding I sat down and learned how to read simple shematics before doing the actual mods.
To be honest, everyone has to start somewhere, and to suggest someone
not try and opt to hire someone instead is just discouraging, making it out like this is something only for the elite, and its most certainly not. Some people learn better by getting their hands dirty getting right to the work, and there are plenty of folks out there with more then capable soldering ability from doing cap repairs, etc, who simply never learned to read a schematic. There is no reason why something like having to decipher squiggly line symbols and arrows should somehow hold someone back if they otherwise have steady hands and could do the work once they are told what parts they need and where to solder. A complicated schematic is only doing one thing for the person having trouble reading or having never read a schematic, being complicated. There are better ways to share knowledge then that if you want to reach a broader audience.
Quote from: Drakon on 09/14/2012, 06:50 AMAlso if the duo doesn't have the expansion port maybe you should show which pin is 5v on something easy to show in a picture like the power regulator?
I am not sure what you mean here. My understanding is the Duo has the same AV port as the Duo-R with the exact same pin out. That means that per what the schematic states, 5 volts can be pulled from Pin 4 of the AV port. If it helps you understand which pin to tap it from, I have revised to include a view of the bottom of the port showing its solder points, which have been labeled for easy understanding for anyone who cant figure out which solder point goes to what pin.
What I mean is if the person isn't willing to learn how to read a simple schematic. Then they're most likely not patient enough for modding. A schematic involving 1 transistor a couple of resistors and 1 cap isn't complicated at all to learn. My schematics are already highly simplified showing pictures of the actual parts. I admire you making a super easy to follow guide. I've seen lots of threads on forums where people try to follow some super dumbed down guide but still manage to mess it up all over the place. I don't try to make mods for "elites" only I just like to keep it difficult enough that if you demonstrate enough patience to learn how to read and wire it then you should have enough patience to get it done right.
I've never had a duo in my posession I didn't know if it has the same expansion port as the tg16 / pc engine. I'm pretty certain that all consoles contain a 7805 voltage regulator. If they all use the same expansion port then using the expansion port's fine.
drakon the duo does not have the expansion port, but has 5V at the AV port.
ALL DUO's have the same AV port, as do some PCE's
Quote from: thesteve on 09/14/2012, 04:19 PMdrakon the duo does not have the expansion port, but has 5V at the AV port.
ALL DUO's have the same AV port, as do some PCE's
Oh okay so maybe grabbing from the regulator is more of a universal spot.
Quote from: Drakon on 09/14/2012, 03:23 PMWhat I mean is if the person isn't willing to learn how to read a simple schematic. Then they're most likely not patient enough for modding. A schematic involving 1 transistor a couple of resistors and 1 cap isn't complicated at all to learn. My schematics are already highly simplified showing pictures of the actual parts. I admire you making a super easy to follow guide. I've seen lots of threads on forums where people try to follow some super dumbed down guide but still manage to mess it up all over the place. I don't try to make mods for "elites" only I just like to keep it difficult enough that if you demonstrate enough patience to learn how to read and wire it then you should have enough patience to get it done right.
I've never had a duo in my posession I didn't know if it has the same expansion port as the tg16 / pc engine. I'm pretty certain that all consoles contain a 7805 voltage regulator. If they all use the same expansion port then using the expansion port's fine.
I can't read schematics and i mod all the time. Also, modding is for everyone, some people learn by example and not by reading charts. Its done right when it works.
http://www.learn-c.com/schemat.htm
well thats fine and dandy, but without someone to tell me what it all means it does not help me much.
now see I have the opposite problem, I can read the schematics all day long. (thank you 70 hours of science credit hours) Hell I've even made things on practice bread boards, but when I try to do my own stuff, with real electronics and soldering, I never seem to be able to make the repair correctly. Although reading the modding boards here has me thinking about trying again, Maybe the next turbo-16 I come across will be fiddled with.
everyone is different, some people have the manual skill but the lack of book smarts, some have the book smarts but lack of manual skill. usually though most go to school to learn how to do this stuff and can't simply absorb it. What freezer and the professor are doing is making simplistic easy to follow walk throughs that help those of us who are not as gifted.
Quote from: HercTNT on 09/14/2012, 07:55 PMeveryone is different, some people have the manual skill but the lack of book smarts, some have the book smarts but lack of manual skill. usually though most go to school to learn how to do this stuff and can't simply absorb it. What freezer and the professor are doing is making simplistic easy to follow walk throughs that help those of us who are not as gifted.
Yeah, and I think it's great. Just saying that for me, it's not the schematics that hang me up, so to say that everyone should learn them is silly, because learning them did me no good. However, I've met many who can simply pick it up and with a minimal amount of guidance, and do a 100% better job than me.
My comment was more of a general one, thats why i did not quote you. I actually agree with you and thought you made a good point :)
ha. oops, read yours wrong, lol. it makes sense now.
no worries :)
Quote from: HercTNT on 09/14/2012, 07:34 PMwell thats fine and dandy, but without someone to tell me what it all means it does not help me much.
I used google to learn. I really doesn't take that much effort. People not being able to do it right is what worries me. Like I said some of my clients send me messages about how many systems and expensive hardware they fried trying to do things on their own. Heck some clients got fried or improperly built hardware because they cheaped out and got some amateur modder to try to get the work done. I think this super easy guide is a good thing, I'm just concerned about people bridging the pins on the IC and killing their systems. They're more than welcome to try. I've been around a lot of modding forums where people follow ultra beginner friendly guides and I get to see how much hardware gets murdered.
I understand why you would be concerned about those that try to sell shoddy work. Just saying there are alot of us that mod for our own private use and our inability to read a schematic does not diminish our patience or the quality of our work. I know that was not the intent of your comment :)
Lets stay on topic here please, which is just about the svideo mod itself. If you want Drakon, you could write up a guide with tips and pics to help people new to soldering make the transition easier, and post it it in another thread, maybe help a few avoid making certain mistakes.
I don't feel the need you can just google it. Now that you have pictures of where to get 5v from every model it's pretty much as good as it can get.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 09/15/2012, 02:57 PMLets stay on topic here please, which is just about the svideo mod itself. If you want Drakon, you could write up a guide with tips and pics to help people new to soldering make the transition easier, and post it it in another thread, maybe help a few avoid making certain mistakes.
Quote from: Drakon on 09/15/2012, 07:12 PMNow that you have pictures of where to get 5v from every model it's pretty much as good as it can get.
I agree. I dont have any issues reading schematics myself, but I found that people ended up liking that one Sony CX one I did due to its ease of use, so hopefully people will find this one helpful. Other then the schematic, all people really need is a good soldering iron, good wire, maybe a good desoldering pump just in case they make a mistake, dremel or power drill, and the parts needed for the mod.
Quote from: Drakon on 09/15/2012, 07:12 PMI don't feel the need you can just google it.
There is actually a nice amount of soldering and desoldering tips videos up on youtube if someone needs them in case they are a beginner at soldering.
Bumping this, as it was a few pages back and I'm going to use it as a reference when modding my spare TG16 soon. Thanks for the diagram!
Thought I'd post an update on doing S-video for a TG16 or PC engine that originally had the RF out. This is the easiest S-video mod to do. Some of you may already know this but I found better spots to tap moist signals needed. You can tap 5V and the Composite sync straight from two of the pins that originally went to the RF out. So if you de-solder your RF you can do your mod this way. So this saves having to run really long wires all the way to your expansion port and makes a sturdier connection for the transistor. Also, make sure to still use a 0.001 capacitor. There isn't one in the picture shown. I temporarily hooked it up that way for quick testing purposes.
/cimg6863.jpg
/cimg6867i.jpg
Thanks for the pic Keith Courage and the diagram ProfessorProfessor (Props to you guys), now I am able to add Svideo to my turbo which is long overdue. I was going to do the AV mode but will also incorporate the SVideo at the same time. Man I got to say its great having guys like you willing to share their knowledge with others. Thanks and I hope my mod works.
Nice!
I had a question regarding the picture with all the pin outs ?? At the bottom left corner that says BOTTOM OF AV PORT ON DUO SYSTEMS, does that also apply for my Duo-R ?? I looking to AV mod it myself, so that later in the future when I decide to have it RGB modded I can have my audio come out from those output jacks ...
AV Port is the same for all Duo models.
Quote from: Keith Courage on 11/02/2012, 01:41 PMThought I'd post an update on doing S-video for a TG16 or PC engine that originally had the RF out. This is the easiest S-video mod to do. Some of you may already know this but I found better spots to tap moist signals needed. You can tap 5V and the Composite sync straight from two of the pins that originally went to the RF out. So if you de-solder your RF you can do your mod this way. So this saves having to run really long wires all the way to your expansion port and makes a sturdier connection for the transistor. Also, make sure to still use a 0.001 capacitor. There isn't one in the picture shown. I temporarily hooked it up that way for quick testing purposes.
Thanks for this. Just finished up fixing a TG16 I got with a broken RF port, so this mod was perfect for that. This has now become my main TG16 for streaming video. The picture quality is mind-blowingly good. Thanks again, couldn't have done it so nicely without this image.
I dig this, simple and effective. This is kickass, Prof.
want to do this myself, thanks mike for the circuit, thanks keith for the pic.
Nice to see you guys placing the svideo port in place of the rf port. Here is an idea for the audio - place a mini jack plug where the channel selector used to be.
/imagetpe.jpg
duo, would love to see the internal on that one.
I should have taken pictures but was in a rush. Its pretty straightforward, gutted the RF box, then dremelled holes for the Composite video and audio jack. Then connected to the expansion port internally.
You guys are wiring the composite video straight into the Chroma pin? That can't be right. Wouldn't the damage already be done to that Chroma, since its mixed with Luma before you're tapping it? Does that chip produce Chroma by itself?
Quote from: jamisonia on 01/14/2013, 03:22 PMYou guys are wiring the composite video straight into the Chroma pin?
It goes through a capacitor first so no, it's not straight into the S-video jack. I take it you've never seen S-video on the PCE/TG-16 in action?
Quote from: ApolloBoy on 01/14/2013, 06:17 PMQuote from: jamisonia on 01/14/2013, 03:22 PMYou guys are wiring the composite video straight into the Chroma pin?
It goes through a capacitor first so no, it's not straight into the S-video jack. I take it you've never seen S-video on the PCE/TG-16 in action?
I have not yet. I see it goes through a very small capacitor. My concern would be since the chroma is already part of composite signal, and has been mixed with Luma, hasn't the damage already been done?
Quote from: jamisonia on 01/14/2013, 03:22 PMYou guys are wiring the composite video straight into the Chroma pin? That can't be right. Wouldn't the damage already be done to that Chroma, since its mixed with Luma before you're tapping it? Does that chip produce Chroma by itself?
Yeah, what Apollo said, the cap acts as a decent filter, but if you want the *best* result you can disconnect the Luma in the amplifier circuit so that at the end of the Composite output all you would have is Chroma, and thus no need for a filtering cap. That's how I wanna do my S-Video mod eventually and make a diagram for it as well.
You asked previously how this S-Video craze got started. Best as I can trace it back to would be first here:
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=9150.0
Bonkuts/TurboXray posted the circuit for the NEC Composite amplifier which showed that a working Luma was being outputted by the 6260 video chip and then thesteve posted his initial design for an amp here:
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?msg=206287
So I'd say early 2012 is when things kicked off with Steve's initial circuit there. Then Keith Courage made the first clear, big image here (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?msg=230092) revising it a bit after consulting with thesteve.
Drakon actually did it another way in the link below which was something I had been consulting thesteve about. I wanted to know if there was a superior way to produce/obtain a clean Chroma and if that was better than a filtering capacitor. He said yeah, it is. So here's that, (disconnecting Luma from the Composite amp to get a clean Chroma):
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=12339.0
(
I wouldn't recommend his technique for disconnecting Luma though. I wanna find an early trace and just razor it to achieve disconnection, rather than his idea of soldering off a resistor... This way, you could scrape both ends of the trace and solder them back to restore it if you wanted or connect to a manual switch. Anyhow, you get the idea of what is trying to be accomplished here from that image.)
I wanna put all that together eventually but with a Luma + Chroma mix, since while this idea gives you the best possible S-Video, it breaks Composite output. So to do this right, you'd break the trace of the Composite output near the AV-Out and you'd add a basic Luma+Chroma Mix to restore back Composite support. So, you'd get the best possible S-Video output, while still having Composite support, only that it would be slightly inferior...
(https://web.archive.org/web/20101031055601im_/http://infocellar.com/television/files/svideo-to-composite-schematic.jpg)
I think that is the circuit that those bi-directional S-Video-to-Composite adapters use. That's what you'd need to do if you did this the more involved way. It will be slightly inferior, yeah, but the benefit of the best S-Video output outweighs that con I feel. In principle, you'll stop using the Composite output anyway after such a mod. Thing is though, a lot of new TVs are phasing out S-Video support and you'll only find Composite, Component, or HDMI, etc. So, you don't want to be lazy and permanently break Composite support to get this quality gain, so it'd be smart to restore it this way should you go this extra route. There is a possibility that connecting that 470pF cap to your perfect Chroma and Luma lines to restore Composite ruins them when they travel out the S-Video jack... That was the other thing I was thinking of, so you'd want to put two new transistors so as not to attenuate your S-Video output in order to restore Composite and not have it interfere... (I dunno for sure if this will happen, haven't done it yet, but it's a concern). Not a problem at all if you don't care about restoring Composite though. You would simply have to make sure you get one of these:
(http://www.cablewholesale.com/prodimages/svideo-female-rca-female-adapter.jpg)
So that if you switch to a TV without S-Video, you could still use Composite with it. Or, look into the Component mod we've been working on, once again, thanks to thesteve. I think Professor mentioned that these adapters can be better than the native Composite output if you've got S-Video to work with. I bought a cable that does this from RadioShack for a $1 (RS, can you believe it??), a close out item, but my experience is that it's probably that cheap circuit I linked above because the quality is inferior than the existing Composite output that I tested it against from my BluRay player. Anyhow, if you want the best, there ya go! ;)
that bI-directional mixer, is just that.
it would (contaminate your Luma, with chroma.
Ah, thanks for confirming it! So would my idea for a way out work ? Basically, having gone this extra route, you've got a clean Chroma line going to the S-Video jack and a properly prepared Luma line as well. You tap this clean Chroma and Luma, add transistors, attenuate them down properly with resistance and then connect that combining capacitor on the output end, thus restoring a Composite signal AFTER 2 extra transistors...
Would that prevent the contamination ? You combine them AFTER 2 transistors? If not, fuck it, just sacrifice the Composite output for good and purchase one of these adapters or cables and keep it handy should you have to switch to a TV that only has Composite some time in the future.
yes on the transistors, dont attenuate.
better idea is simply isolate the signals from the chip, mixing the luma/chroma after the first transistor
then have a transistor pair for S-Vid and the stock (almost) amp
Your circuit from the 3.5" LCD mod thread:
(?action=dlattach&topic=9334&attach=7918&image)
1) Break the Luma trace in the internal amp so at the Composite output, you have a clean Chroma.
2) Tap the Luma pin, build the well-known amp at the start of this thread, connect both clean Chroma and Luma to female S-Video jack.
3) Build your circuit pictured above (extra soldering to pins in question) to maintain Composite support, and who cares if it's slightly inferior since you'll mostly be using S-Video after this mod.
4) Break the Composite trace at some point near the AV out and connect it to this simpler amp, achieving a bypass, etc.
All in all, I would need 5 resistors and one transistor for this extra distance idea. (Of course, this was for TE and no lifting and grounding pins is necessary.)
Thumbs up or ? I think you cited a simpler idea but I can't visualize it from what I read.
simpler yes
do the amp from luma (like S-Vid scat)
connect a resistor from it to after the first transistor in the composite circuit.
connect amp shown above twice (once without luma, and again with just luma)
Quote from: thesteve on 01/14/2013, 07:17 PMthat bI-directional mixer, is just that.
it would (contaminate your Luma, with chroma.
This is cheesy but this reminded me of that you got peanut better in my chocolate, no you got chocolate in my peanut butter commercial.
You got Chroma in my Luma... no you got luma in my chroma!
NightWolve I agree that simply cutting the trace would be more desirable than removing the resistor. Its just strange that the PC Engine doesn't create fully formed Chroma before Luma is mixed in. Its not ideal to remove features.
TVs have already dropped s-video. My Plasma was mid range in 2012, and did not have either VGA input or s-video. However I keep around a Sony Wega for retro gaming. Of course if that YPbPr mod comes out and looks good I'll just skip s-video and go straight to it.
(?action=dlattach;topic=13231;attach=7889;image)
it works and looks decent
just need wolve to verify my schematic, so we can have boards made
I prefer S-video myself since I still like to do all of my gaming on a CRT TV. I hate playing games on a flat screen. I can't stand seeing the picture all streched out or a square in the center with black all around it. So for those of us who prefer CRT gaming S-video is still a great option.
How abuot a CRT with YPbPr inputs? Many of the later SD CRTs had them. Might I suggest trying to track down a KV-xxFV310. the xx is the size, which ranges I beleive from 27 to 36". This TV has a subwoofer inside the TV, better speakers than most TVs. It also has a 3D Comb Filter which is the best comb filter designed, great for composite only systems (Only the NES remains I believe), and finally the coup de grace for me was 2 YPbPr Inputs, 2 S-video Inputs, and 1 additional Composite only input. Additionally you can maintain a separate calibrations on the YPbPr and other inputs, and it has a Pro Calibration mode. Its really the best SD CRT one can find.
3D comb filters aren't always the best, but generally any TV with one is a good TV and there are usually lots of options to keep them from interfering with the signal too much.
And yeah, lots of CRTs have component inputs. All four of mine do.
Quote from: jamisonia on 01/14/2013, 06:40 PMQuote from: ApolloBoy on 01/14/2013, 06:17 PMQuote from: jamisonia on 01/14/2013, 03:22 PMYou guys are wiring the composite video straight into the Chroma pin?
It goes through a capacitor first so no, it's not straight into the S-video jack. I take it you've never seen S-video on the PCE/TG-16 in action?
I have not yet. I see it goes through a very small capacitor. My concern would be since the chroma is already part of composite signal, and has been mixed with Luma, hasn't the damage already been done?
You'd think so, but while I haven't gotten around to doing this mod, I did do a very similar one on my MkI Genesis and the difference in video quality is HUUUUUGE so I'm sure it could help the PCE as well.
lol, i game on CRT in pic
i use the flat panel for mod testing
Quote from: thesteve on 01/16/2013, 01:55 AMlol, i game on CRT in pic
i use the flat panel for mod testing
Really, I've always preferred a CRT for mod testing because all digital TVs have a delay in establishing a picture, and it will often filter out random noise. An analog TV shows everything. Better for troubleshooting video mods if they're not working.
Quote from: Keith Courage on 01/15/2013, 01:30 PMI prefer S-video myself since I still like to do all of my gaming on a CRT TV. I hate playing games on a flat screen. I can't stand seeing the picture all streched out or a square in the center with black all around it. So for those of us who prefer CRT gaming S-video is still a great option.
You do know that modern LCDs allow you to set aspect ratio of the inputs, right?
Quote from: vxbinaca on 01/17/2013, 06:18 AMQuote from: Keith Courage on 01/15/2013, 01:30 PMI prefer S-video myself since I still like to do all of my gaming on a CRT TV. I hate playing games on a flat screen. I can't stand seeing the picture all streched out or a square in the center with black all around it. So for those of us who prefer CRT gaming S-video is still a great option.
You do know that modern LCDs allow you to set aspect ratio of the inputs, right?
If you'd actually read his post you'd see he was quite aware of that.
Quoteall streched out or a square in the center with black all around it
so a side note, would there be any way to adapt this so that i could put the jack on a PCE IFU-30?
I'd love to have the S-video option, but i'd have a hard time figuring out where to put the jack on just the system.
The signal originates in the PCE itself so you'd have to run wires from it to the IFU which would be kind of silly. Many people remove the OEM video socket and replace it with something else like a DIN with more pins on it or whatever.
If you have a white PCE you can just ditch the useless OEM RF socket completely and replace it with a 4 pin mini DIN.
yeah, running a beefcase setup with a CGXI right now, but i may just do that.
what do you think would be the best way to mount the socket if i were to go the route of replacing it?
Quote from: bartre on 01/20/2013, 08:23 PMyeah, running a beefcase setup with a CGXI right now, but i may just do that.
what do you think would be the best way to mount the socket if i were to go the route of replacing it?
Doujindance has a nice video on youtube showing how he replaces the din socket with one accepting more pins. If you look around you could probably find it on there by searching his name or something. It will be in his RGB mod video I believe.
yeah you just need the right socket that solders up nicely to the board. I found one on ebay that works.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 01/20/2013, 08:19 PMIf you have a white PCE you can just ditch the useless OEM RF socket completely and replace it with a 4 pin mini DIN.
That's what I did with mine and Black Tiger's PCEs. It's a very clean solution and you don't have to drill any extra holes which is really nice.
Quote from: Keith Courage on 01/15/2013, 01:30 PMI prefer S-video myself since I still like to do all of my gaming on a CRT TV. I hate playing games on a flat screen. I can't stand seeing the picture all streched out or a square in the center with black all around it. So for those of us who prefer CRT gaming S-video is still a great option.
Sounds like you missed out on a CRT with YPbPr inputs then! I've got a 32" Panasonic with three S-Video jacks and one YPbPr Component, although I modded it and added another set of jacks on the right side for convenience since I'm doing a lot of testing and plugging cables in & out frequently enough (
only one set of jacks works at a time, obviously - I bought so many of these (https://web.archive.org/web/20190511000104im_/http://www.ezlister.net/Images/ba3/P1017071.jpg), I had to do something with them.).
(https://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff216/Sephiroth1975/General/DuoYPbPrSVideoMod_zps36f8a011.gif)
No reason you can't do both mods, right? ;)
Nice thing is, a 240p Luma signal is guaranteed to work with a CRT and the picture is just plain lovely; the shimmering effects when scrolling are mostly eliminated (
not completely, but better than S-Video), the colors are more solid and there's less interference (wavy lines, etc.). It's not raw analog RGB, but it's pretty close from my understanding. I finished the SNES Component mod and I'm still so impressed by the difference (This is the amplifier circuit I built (https://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff216/Sephiroth1975/General/EarlySNESYPbPrCircuitAmp_zps99c7a3aa.png) with steve's favorite transistors)!:
(https://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff216/Sephiroth1975/General/EarlySNESYPbPrCircuitAmp_zps99c7a3aa.png)
People seem to forget the old saying YMMV at times like these. Just having an component option does not automatically make it superior across the board for everyone. Different tv sets will offer different quality on their inputs. What works great for one in component may not do as well for another via the same option. I personally have two CRT sets, both supporting composite and svideo, and one supporting component in also. The one without component support, its svideo in is totally superior to the others component in, simply due to it being a better tv, so I wont even bother using anything on the other one other then cable tv, xbox, and GC. Others may have similar issues like myself, or simply no set that supports component in at all CRT wise. They could also run into issues like what my mom's old crt used to experience, with her component in being a tad, just a tad, worse then her svideo in. Something that wasn't easy to spot when watching dvds but was noticeable when connected to a jrok encoder and doing some game testing.
At any rate, please try to stay on topic on this one and keep the component mod discussion and info on the component thread. If the component mod is finalized and actually on par with svideo now, or superior, in both color and sharpness or quality, then some actual quality screen grabs or video capture needs to be done now, for one, to show its been finalized, and two, to compare against the s-video mod (no moar cell phone pics, damn you Steve!). The component thread needs to be updated with that info, and a final schematic if it has not yet (sorry, I dont read that thread really, so have no idea if you guys have done this yet or not). Nice gold plated jacks btw Nightwolve. I used to use them on my supergun kits. They hold up well.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 01/24/2013, 07:56 AMPeople seem to forget the old saying YMMV at times like these. Just having an component option does not automatically make it superior across the board for everyone. Different tv sets will offer different quality on their inputs. What works great for one in component may not do as well for another via the same option. I personally have two CRT sets, both supporting composite and svideo, and one supporting component in also. The one without component support, its svideo in is totally superior to the others component in, simply due to it being a better tv, so I wont even bother using anything on the other one other then cable tv, xbox, and GC. Others may have similar issues like myself, or simply no set that supports component in at all CRT wise. They could also run into issues like what my mom's old crt used to experience, with her component in being a tad, just a tad, worse then her svideo in. Something that wasn't easy to spot when watching dvds but was noticeable when connected to a jrok encoder and doing some game testing.
I hear ya, and I don't doubt this at all, but I think in principle or say in general, you ought to be able to get better picture quality with YPbPr Component because then it becomes counter-intuitive, that is to say, why would the industry bother to adopt the YPbPr standard as the successor to S-Video if you *generally* couldn't get a better result, etc. ? But yeah, based on what I've heard over time, I'm not gonna say in every case you get a better result, but there's certainly a good chance that you will and that's only ever been my experience. Anyway, with steve's cheap circuit, we can have both options as mentioned! :) Some creativity is needed for using the limited real estate of the Duo for jack placement though, but yeah...
QuoteAt any rate, please try to stay on topic on this one and keep the component mod discussion and info on the component thread.
I wouldn't have thought the tangent to be too off or unwanted, but sure.
QuoteIf the component mod is finalized and actually on par with svideo now, or superior, in both color and sharpness or quality, then some actual quality screen grabs or video capture needs to be done now, for one, to show its been finalized, and two, to compare against the s-video mod (no moar cell phone pics, damn you Steve!). The component thread needs to be updated with that info, and a final schematic if it has not yet (sorry, I dont read that thread really, so have no idea if you guys have done this yet or not).
Oh yeah, it'll happen. Goes without saying. I believe he feels the circuit is purty final (it works for the customer), but would like backup verification by others (me, Blue and anyone else) to build it off the schematic before proceeding with further plans to manufacture pre-made boards. Not something you wanna rush of course, and everyone works in their own time and mood, etc. (P.S. steve, I wouldn't wait on me, I'm distracted by other things lately so I dunno when I'll get to it).
QuoteNice gold plated jacks btw Nightwolve. I used to use them on my supergun kits. They hold up well.
Yeah, got a local store (American Science'n'Surplus) that sells them for $1 (
all 3 jacks on a wall plate)! Of course, they only come in standard yellow, white and red so I had to improvise and use green and blue nail polish to get proper Component coloring... ;) The green polish is strong, but blue came with glitter which requires more care or you'll nick it off unfortunately... I'm just being cheap, is all - you can buy them online with proper coloring obviously. The other thing though, I wish my drilling had gone a bit better for it, but good enough I guess... =\
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 01/24/2013, 07:56 AMPeople seem to forget the old saying YMMV at times like these. Just having an component option does not automatically make it superior across the board for everyone. Different tv sets will offer different quality on their inputs. What works great for one in component may not do as well for another via the same option. I personally have two CRT sets, both supporting composite and svideo, and one supporting component in also. The one without component support, its svideo in is totally superior to the others component in, simply due to it being a better tv, so I wont even bother using anything on the other one other then cable tv, xbox, and GC. Others may have similar issues like myself, or simply no set that supports component in at all CRT wise. They could also run into issues like what my mom's old crt used to experience, with her component in being a tad, just a tad, worse then her svideo in. Something that wasn't easy to spot when watching dvds but was noticeable when connected to a jrok encoder and doing some game testing.
At any rate, please try to stay on topic on this one and keep the component mod discussion and info on the component thread. If the component mod is finalized and actually on par with svideo now, or superior, in both color and sharpness or quality, then some actual quality screen grabs or video capture needs to be done now, for one, to show its been finalized, and two, to compare against the s-video mod (no moar cell phone pics, damn you Steve!). The component thread needs to be updated with that info, and a final schematic if it has not yet (sorry, I dont read that thread really, so have no idea if you guys have done this yet or not). Nice gold plated jacks btw Nightwolve. I used to use them on my supergun kits. They hold up well.
This is simply not true. If the source material originates in RGB the quality of the output will be RGB > YPbPr > S-Video > Composite > RF. This rules are hard and fast and always apply, if the material is stored in a component format. It should be stated that YPbPr and RGB are closer to how the actual source material looks, it may not look better. Better may be a matter of opinion. It will look more accurate to the source material. You can argue whether this is "better" nor not. People argue using s-video isn't better because it destroys video trick the developers relied on back in those days.
I'd also like to make note that the s-video inputs are labeled incorrectly in the first post. When looking at a female s-video port, as the picture depicts, Luma is going into the right top in (pin 3), and Chroma goes into the left top pin (pin 4).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Video
Not sure what video trick you refferring to, but many people here have s-vid modded turbo's. I have an s-vid modded turbo and genesis and the improved visual quality is not subjective. S-vid is clearly superior to composite in any good screenshot anywhere on the web or here your going to find it. Take an s-vid modded and composite genny side by side and tell me the s-video is debatable (i'm sure you will) :roll:
Quote from: jamisonia on 01/24/2013, 12:19 PMQuote from: PCEngineHell on 01/24/2013, 07:56 AMPeople seem to forget the old saying YMMV at times like these. Just having an component option does not automatically make it superior across the board for everyone. Different tv sets will offer different quality on their inputs. What works great for one in component may not do as well for another via the same option. I personally have two CRT sets, both supporting composite and svideo, and one supporting component in also. The one without component support, its svideo in is totally superior to the others component in, simply due to it being a better tv, so I wont even bother using anything on the other one other then cable tv, xbox, and GC. Others may have similar issues like myself, or simply no set that supports component in at all CRT wise. They could also run into issues like what my mom's old crt used to experience, with her component in being a tad, just a tad, worse then her svideo in. Something that wasn't easy to spot when watching dvds but was noticeable when connected to a jrok encoder and doing some game testing.
At any rate, please try to stay on topic on this one and keep the component mod discussion and info on the component thread. If the component mod is finalized and actually on par with svideo now, or superior, in both color and sharpness or quality, then some actual quality screen grabs or video capture needs to be done now, for one, to show its been finalized, and two, to compare against the s-video mod (no moar cell phone pics, damn you Steve!). The component thread needs to be updated with that info, and a final schematic if it has not yet (sorry, I dont read that thread really, so have no idea if you guys have done this yet or not). Nice gold plated jacks btw Nightwolve. I used to use them on my supergun kits. They hold up well.
This is simply not true. If the source material originates in RGB the quality of the output will be RGB > YPbPr > S-Video > Composite > RF. This rules are hard and fast and always apply, if the material is stored in a component format. It should be stated that YPbPr and RGB are closer to how the actual source material looks, it may not look better. Better may be a matter of opinion. It will look more accurate to the source material. You can argue whether this is "better" nor not. People argue using s-video isn't better because it destroys video trick the developers relied on back in those days.
I'd also like to make note that the s-video inputs are labeled incorrectly in the first post. When looking at a female s-video port, as the picture depicts, Luma is going into the right top in (pin 3), and Chroma goes into the left top pin (pin 4).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Video
This is under the assumption of one: the component mod is working 100 percent up to snuff, and two: you have a great set. Just because the TV offers component does not suddenly make it a awesome set, nor does it mean the manufacture implemented component well. CRT's are not created equal. Quality will vary among them, among the inputs and the TV's using them depending on how great the manufacturer did of a job putting the set together. I'm sorry you think its a lie, but I have been in the game long enough to speak from vast experience concerning the matter. If you have a hard time understanding why or how a great built crt using a Panasonic or other quality tube using s-video can beat a shitty Emerson with god awful inner working and a terrible no name crt tube from China, then I'm sorry, I cant help you. You are a lost cause.
As for the s-video soldering info, evidently you don't understand what "
REAR" of the jack means, as the schematic clearly states. It means solder side, as in, not the front of the jack that you plug the svideo cable into. Again, if you don't understand what this means, then sorry, I cant help you. If it makes you feel better though, you can burn a effigy of me or something and shout a few curses my way.
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/customs/rearnfront.png)
svideomodTG16DuoSupergrafxetc.webp
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/customs/svideomodTG16DuoSupergrafxetc.png
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 01/24/2013, 02:02 PMAs for the s-video soldering info, evidently you don't understand what "REAR" of the jack means, as the schematic clearly states.
So this isn't the s-video schematic for the illiterate then? It requires reading. To be honest I just simply looked at the picture, and noticed something didn't look right.
I think you can see my point though. The picture shows you looking at the female socket end of an s-video plug. Additionally its inconsistent with the Turbo's DIN plug you show right below it. I'm not sure why you're being a jackass about it. I think you can see that there should be some consistency, especially if this is supposed to be for those that can't read schematics.
Insofar as the YPbPr goes, you really believe that the circuit used to implement on YPbPr on cheap TVs is inferior to the circuit used to separate the C into its separate colors from the Y/C input? By you own admission DVDs still looked better. DVDs are a far superior test source.
as i see it S-Vid is the prefered output for the PCE/Turbo, as it does it native.
Composite:
CompositeTest.webp
S-Vid:
S-VideoTest.webp
Note the color bleed on composite (same TV)
Even if component can look better the fact still remains that this S-video mod is easy to do. Where as for someone who hasn't done much soldering the component mod schematic could look like an alien language and end up taking much much much more time to complete. So for those looking for an easy Video upgrade S-video is the way to go.
Quote from: Keith Courage on 01/25/2013, 02:46 PMEven if component can look better the fact still remains that this S-video mod is easy to do. Where as for someone who hasn't done much soldering the component mod schematic could look like an alien language and end up taking much much much more time to complete. So for those looking for an easy Video upgrade S-video is the way to go.
Given, but to say some TVs work with Y/C signals better than they work with YPbPr signals makes no sense. No matter what the signals are divided into Red, Green, and Blue Signals. The more separated the signals are to begin with the more accurate reproduction. However, given that YPbPr doesn't actually contain the green color signal, I will admit that YPbPr will look "greener" compared to composite and Y/C. Obviously straight RGB is still the best. (Not in the case of BDs and DVDs though)
Quote from: jamisonia on 01/25/2013, 09:54 AMQuote from: PCEngineHell on 01/24/2013, 02:02 PMAs for the s-video soldering info, evidently you don't understand what "REAR" of the jack means, as the schematic clearly states.
So this isn't the s-video schematic for the illiterate then? It requires reading. To be honest I just simply looked at the picture, and noticed something didn't look right.
I think you can see my point though. The picture shows you looking at the female socket end of an s-video plug. Additionally its inconsistent with the Turbo's DIN plug you show right below it. I'm not sure why you're being a jackass about it. I think you can see that there should be some consistency, especially if this is supposed to be for those that can't read schematics.
Insofar as the YPbPr goes, you really believe that the circuit used to implement on YPbPr on cheap TVs is inferior to the circuit used to separate the C into its separate colors from the Y/C input? By you own admission DVDs still looked better. DVDs are a far superior test source.
Dvds being outputted in normal play via component, with the video in motion, not running a THX or similar calibration test , using still images for that matter, no you would not see much a difference as compared to an analog out, non-progress scan component signal on a jrok encoder, when running a arcade game boards calibration test. There is a big difference there between the two, and that is where the quality issues were shown.
Its not being rude, its stating a fact. You having issues accepting that, let alone accepting the fact that a shitty crt tube and shitty circuitry, is not going to compete with a solid built set, regardless of the shity one offering component over the better ones s-video out, is not my problem, nor anyone else here. And trying to clog up this thread with your imaginary issues and inability to tell the difference between a bad tv and a good one, that is being a jack ass.
No one here is saying component itself in general is worse then svideo quality wise. Its not. It is superior signal wise. What matters however is the total quality of the sum of the parts used. Its the same thing as having a thousand dollar surround THX receiver and slapping it with a 50 dollar set of used generic no name speakers, versus a solid Pioneer Stereo receiver with two solid Dynaudio speakers. The other guy may have 5.1, but who fucking cares, because it sounds like 5.1 out of a few tin cans due to the weakest link being the speakers. The same applies to the crt being used. If it is a shitty crt, it is going to be your weakest link in the chain, and therefore your end picture quality is going to suck, regardless of the shitty crt offering component, all it is doing is giving you a worse representation of a otherwise solid signal.
And that worse representation of said signal, being component, is then not going to stand a chance against the best representation of s-video, which is a quality signal just a notch below it for that matter. This also applies to the mod itself. If the component mod is not yet up to snuff, then the end quality is still not going to compete with, nor surpass, the svideo mod that is. As stated before, and now I am basically sounding like a broken record, if you don't understand why all of this is the fact of the matter, then you are a lost cause.
Also, stating REAR of the jack, everyone else seems to know what it meant but you. I mean come on, 5 pages later and the only guy complaining and accusing someone of lying is the one guy who dropped me a pm talking about how he and others argue on the other forum he is on, and is fishing for some back talk about Drakon, who no one else gives a flying fuck about? Seriously?
Also, in what world does a svideo jack have anything to do with a TurboDuo din plug? They are separate entities, and each were labeled accordingly. Just because you can invent some complaints does not make them valid, and seriously, if you cant READ the words on the schematic, then probably just as well you should not be on the net, since you obviously cant read or type then, correct? Implying someone as being schematic illiterate is a bit different then just implying they are illiterate, which I did not do. Are you some global representative for The Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Do Other Stuff Good Too or something?
Seriously, stop trying to clog up this thread with bullshit already. It is not warranted, wanted, nor appreciated by anyone here who actually knows wtf they are doing, let alone in general.
Quote from: jamisonia on 01/25/2013, 03:01 PMQuote from: Keith Courage on 01/25/2013, 02:46 PMEven if component can look better the fact still remains that this S-video mod is easy to do. Where as for someone who hasn't done much soldering the component mod schematic could look like an alien language and end up taking much much much more time to complete. So for those looking for an easy Video upgrade S-video is the way to go.
Given, but to say some TVs work with Y/C signals better than they work with YPbPr signals makes no sense. No matter what the signals are divided into Red, Green, and Blue Signals. The more separated the signals are to begin with the more accurate reproduction. However, given that YPbPr doesn't actually contain the green color signal, I will admit that YPbPr will look "greener" compared to composite and Y/C. Obviously straight RGB is still the best. (Not in the case of BDs and DVDs though)
I think you are underestimating how shitty a TV can be, and encoders as well.
I installed a JROK in my CMVS and I'm telling you there is zero improvement over s-video. Yeah, there SHOULD be, but there isn't. This is probably because the JROK has a so-so component transcoder, and also because my Sony XBR960 has a fucking wicked bunch of super high tech circuitry in it. I'm not sure, I just know that the encoder was kind of a waste of money. I should have just used the standard JROK.
It might make a bigger difference on my pro JVC since it has no comb filters or anything, being a reference monitor. I've never tried it though.
The point is: things vary a lot from set to set, and anyone bothering to go through this process probably has a nice Sony or JVC from the golden era of CRT and the PCE is going to look amazing on it with this very mod.
I went ahead and got off my lazy ass and did these since I figured it needed to be done for this thread to compare s-video against composite. There is some drawbacks to this though. For one, I do not have the capture card I used to have, nor the software I used to cap with, so I was limited to using my Geforce FX 5950 Vivo in and Windows movie maker. Anyone in the know as far as video capping is concerned is that it is near impossible to play games and cap video in Windows Movie Maker due to the lag and choppiness present in their software when capping from S-Video and Composite. Due to this I did not cap as wide a range of games, nor did I do any actual videos. Actual videos would have shown the degree to which the shimmering effect has been minimized, however I cant give you that. Also, my 5950 is not great where color is concerned, so you are not going to see much variation between color quality in these pics.
Saying all of that, I will go on record and state what I have stated prior, PCE/TG Composite was never terrible to begin with. It was one of the best examples of composite done right on a game system, compared to the likes of the Genesis, Master System, or early AES, where composite was simply terrible. My only real complaint with the TG/PCE composite was the shimmering, which happens on most any system via composite anyway. Sharpness was fairly good as is, as was color. Regardless, what these pics will show you is the degree to which sharpness has been improved, and due to that, finer details are nicer looking. Don't try looking at the total picture, as that will probably make it harder to compare on these pics.
What I suggest is to focus on finer details, like the straight lines on the buildings on the background of Air Zonk, rocks on the bottom area of Keith Courage, or how nice and smooth the old mans staff is in Cadash, along with how smooth the status field looks in that game in S-video compared to composite. Or for that matter how much sharper the character portraits look on Cadash on character select (especially in the Fighters case). Basically just building on already great image quality composite provided for the system, S-video really just fixed what little problems are there a bit more. On a good CRT, in motion, you will obviously notice more then what these pics provide. Sorry I could not get you any decent gameplay videos, just not possible with my current gear.
CompositeSVideo-compare1.webp (https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/customs/compare1.png)
CompositeSVideo-compare2.webp (https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/customs/compare2.png)
CompositeSVideo-compare3.webp (https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/customs/compare3.png)
CompositeSVideo-compare4.webp (https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/customs/compare4.png)
CompositeSVideo-compare5.webp (https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/customs/compare5.png)
I may catch shit for this....but I find it really hard to tell the difference... I just ain't seeing it.
no, your right bernie. just goes to show just how good the composite on the turbo really is. s-vid helps, but composite is very close. its not like the diff between the composite and s-vid on a genny. that will open your eyes.
Quote from: Bernie on 01/25/2013, 10:27 PMI may catch shit for this....but I find it really hard to tell the difference... I just ain't seeing it.
Glad I wasn't the only one thinking that...
I'd be willing to bet, though, when in motion the S-Video would be alot better. I've noticed alot of the "shimmering" effect with composite vs the lack of with S-Video
Like I said, sharpness is improved by a degree. The shimmering for me was always the major issue. The sharpness thing is more of a nit picking thing, and you really have to have a good eye and notice certain things to see the difference some times depending on the display being used. It also helps if your tv by chance somehow managed terrible composite in but good svideo in, as more flaws will be noticeable. Only issue with this is you are viewing these grabs from caps, so the whole sdtv CRT/scanline factor has been taken away, making it harder to spot differences. As stated prior, ymmv anyway. You will be less likely to notice a improvement on your LCD between the two then compared to a CRT too.
If this helps you spot some differences, here you go:
compare6.webp (https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/customs/compare6.png)
While I haven't seen the TG16/PCE in S-Video I have seen the difference using the Genesis, Saturn, PS1 & 2 with composite and s-video and the difference is very noticeable. Especially in motion.
Video capture cards are a pretty useless gauge of video quality, IMHO. In this case it seems to be doing a great job of presenting the composite at least, usually you get the opposite. Usually everything looks crap. Often times they are wired internally to combine Y/C anyway. Sometimes they have awesome 3D comb filters superior to what's probably in your TV. Then there is all the hardware compression they do which ends up giving you new artifacts not present in the signal, or artificially cleaning it up. Either way, a capture card puts its own unique twist on the signal.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 01/26/2013, 12:54 AMVideo capture cards are a pretty useless gauge of video quality, IMHO. In this case it seems to be doing a great job of presenting the composite at least, usually you get the opposite. Usually everything looks crap. Often times they are wired internally to combine Y/C anyway. Sometimes they have awesome 3D comb filters superior to what's probably in your TV. Then there is all the hardware compression they do which ends up giving you new artifacts not present in the signal, or artificially cleaning it up. Either way, a capture card puts its own unique twist on the signal.
Yeah I agree. The prior card I used to use, a Gainward Golden Sample Ti4200, with InterVideo WinCoder, was a lot better for this sort of task. There was no lag when capping vids, and it did not try to clean up composite at all, as found here:
svidcomparesonycx.webp (https://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/customs/svidcomparesonycx.png)
Unfortunately the FX 5950 I have does more clean up on the composite lines image quality then the Ti 4200 did, which is great for people who wanted a quality clean up job when capping video from vcr's, laserdisc, etc. But it's bad for using it when doing a compare like this because it trumps up the signal quality more then the average tv probably would on the composite line . It makes me feel a bit foolish for selling my old Gainward.
S-Video looks way better in person. I have a S-video modded DUO-R and in many games I have switched from Composite to S-Video back and forth to see the change and the difference is like night and day depending on the game. Some games the difference is minimal but on others it's just amazing. I am playing through Blood Gear right now and I have to say that S-Video tromps standard composite.
Yeah, like I said, my 5950 cap card is doing some cleanup on the composite line, which is also partly why I get lag when I record video with it via composite in. Its very likely more often then not that hardly anyone's TV here will have a composite image looking as nice as it did in the pics above, though I image some people with really really good monitors can get fairly close, with the same, or better color quality. High quality still shots, and seeing stuff in motion on a traditional crt though, is another issue all together. Active movement in the image would expose more weakness in the composite quality that the still shots alone are not going to show, and I wish I could present that, but I cant play the games with the degree of lag that is present on that setup.
that is why i prefer live shots of actual monitors/TV's
i have always found cap cards to add excessive blur/filtering
Live shots are fine if you can actually see what the pic is showing. You need to be using a decent camera to do those types of shots and get really good results though. I even have issues getting good shots with my camera on a CRT due to glare and crap. To be honest with like with the shots you posted, I honestly have a hard time telling whats what on screen because it looks bad. If I have to choose between something like cellphone or iphone pics, and screen caps on a capture card, I am going to choose the cap card every time.
Quote from: Keith Courage on 01/25/2013, 02:46 PMEven if Component can look better the fact still remains that this S-video mod is easy to do. Where as for someone who hasn't done much soldering the component mod schematic could look like an alien language and end up taking much much much more time to complete. So for those looking for an easy Video upgrade S-video is the way to go.
(https://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff216/Sephiroth1975/General/DuoCaseYPbPrSVidMod_zps8bf1b9b9.gif) Oh sure, there was never any "
Don't do the S-Video mod in favor of Component only" message here (
It was do both and it's worth it!) and of course the S-Video mod alone is naturally far easier. You can see from my Turbo Duo's case, I aim to do both simultaneously and I have some ideas I wanna try on how to best tweak the Luma and Chroma although there are pros/cons to it all as discussed earlier.
(
There's a little story behind the female S-Video jack that you see above... I was billed $10 for it total from http://www.markertek.com/ and this happened because I assumed the shipping would be reasonable, but they don't tell you what the charge will be until they're ready to ship... Disgusted, I sent a nasty email to their support desk and they wound up completely refunding the shipping charge to me, so I only paid the $1.50 for it... The fun didn't end after I received it, though. It didn't include the locking nut, even though it's clearly shown in the picture (http://www.markertek.com/Connectors-Adapters/Video-Connectors/S-Video-Connectors/Calrad-Electronics/30-507T.xhtml?TCS7848), so I had to improvise and make my own which required using a hack saw and my bench grinder... It uses metric threading of size 13mm and I could only find a nut for plumbing applications that would work, I shopped around several places before making my own... Anyway... Heh-heh! I never bought anything from them again suffice to say...)
Given your point about difficulty though, eventually steve and BlueBMW are gonna be manufacturing an amp PCB for RGB, YPbPr, and *I think* S-Video as well. A PCEFX Jrok equivalent but just meant for NEC systems and without some $50+ price tag. Thus, for us seasoned DIY folks that want a little electrical engineering challenge on the side, we can go ahead and build it ourselves, but those with less skills/confidence/time can buy a custom, ready-to-go board for a reasonable price where you'd just have to solder wires up properly to the 6260 video chip and elsewhere, along with deciding on jack placement or going with DIN, etc.
Quote from: thesteve on 01/26/2013, 03:05 AMthat is why i prefer live shots of actual monitors/TV's
i have always found cap cards to add excessive blur/filtering
It's kind of funny... Steve can learn how to come up with a S-Video circuit, a YPbPr circuit, an RGB amp, a 3.5" LCD Mod for the Turbo Express, strategically placing a few caps around a video chip to eliminate jail bars, and all sorts of repairs of hardware both electrical and mechanical, etc... BUT, what he can't learn to do or come up with is how to take some decent screenshots, let alone organize them in a useful fashion for the viewer... Heh-heh! Just messin' with ya. ;)
Quote from: NightWolve on 01/26/2013, 07:42 AMIt's kind of funny... Steve can learn how to come up with a S-Video circuit, a YPbPr circuit, an RGB amp, a 3.5" LCD Mod for the Turbo Express, strategically placing a few caps around a video chip to eliminate jail bars, and all sorts of repairs of hardware both electrical and mechanical, etc... BUT, what he can't learn to do or come up with is how to take some decent screenshots, let alone organize them in a useful fashion for the viewer... Heh-heh! Just messin' with ya. ;)
Hahahhahahhaaha. Seriously. He does amazing things but when he documents his accomplishments, it looks like a broken flip phone circa 1998 took the pictures. :pcgs:
I feel bad for even joking about the extreme discrepancy between his contributions and his photos. :pcgs:
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 01/25/2013, 05:00 PMDvds being outputted in normal play via component, with the video in motion, not running a THX or similar calibration test , using still images for that matter, no you would not see much a difference as compared to an analog out, non-progress scan component signal on a jrok encoder, when running a arcade game boards calibration test. There is a big difference there between the two, and that is where the quality issues were shown.
Its not being rude, its stating a fact. You having issues accepting that, let alone accepting the fact that a shitty crt tube and shitty circuitry, is not going to compete with a solid built set, regardless of the shity one offering component over the better ones s-video out, is not my problem, nor anyone else here. And trying to clog up this thread with your imaginary issues and inability to tell the difference between a bad tv and a good one, that is being a jack ass.
No one here is saying component itself in general is worse then svideo quality wise. Its not. It is superior signal wise. What matters however is the total quality of the sum of the parts used. Its the same thing as having a thousand dollar surround THX receiver and slapping it with a 50 dollar set of used generic no name speakers, versus a solid Pioneer Stereo receiver with two solid Dynaudio speakers. The other guy may have 5.1, but who fucking cares, because it sounds like 5.1 out of a few tin cans due to the weakest link being the speakers. The same applies to the crt being used. If it is a shitty crt, it is going to be your weakest link in the chain, and therefore your end picture quality is going to suck, regardless of the shitty crt offering component, all it is doing is giving you a worse representation of a otherwise solid signal.
And that worse representation of said signal, being component, is then not going to stand a chance against the best representation of s-video, which is a quality signal just a notch below it for that matter. This also applies to the mod itself. If the component mod is not yet up to snuff, then the end quality is still not going to compete with, nor surpass, the svideo mod that is. As stated before, and now I am basically sounding like a broken record, if you don't understand why all of this is the fact of the matter, then you are a lost cause.
Also, stating REAR of the jack, everyone else seems to know what it meant but you. I mean come on, 5 pages later and the only guy complaining and accusing someone of lying is the one guy who dropped me a pm talking about how he and others argue on the other forum he is on, and is fishing for some back talk about Drakon, who no one else gives a flying fuck about? Seriously?
Also, in what world does a svideo jack have anything to do with a TurboDuo din plug? They are separate entities, and each were labeled accordingly. Just because you can invent some complaints does not make them valid, and seriously, if you cant READ the words on the schematic, then probably just as well you should not be on the net, since you obviously cant read or type then, correct? Implying someone as being schematic illiterate is a bit different then just implying they are illiterate, which I did not do. Are you some global representative for The Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Want to Do Other Stuff Good Too or something?
Seriously, stop trying to clog up this thread with bullshit already. It is not warranted, wanted, nor appreciated by anyone here who actually knows wtf they are doing, let alone in general.
You clearly don't understand how video works. Pick up a copy of Digital Video Essentials and educate yourself.
Quote from: jamisonia on 01/28/2013, 12:33 AMYou clearly don't understand how video works. Pick up a copy of Digital Video Essentials and educate yourself.
So Mike makes a nice detailed post and that's all you have to say? OK...
DIGITAL Video Essentials? Isn't this a calibration disc? Much education could possible be contained there? And regardless, this isn't digital video we are taking about.
Next he'll be talking about how we are all tools for not understanding that the HDMI mod clearly trumps the YPBPR ones...
Quote from: ApolloBoy on 01/28/2013, 03:42 AMQuote from: jamisonia on 01/28/2013, 12:33 AMYou clearly don't understand how video works. Pick up a copy of Digital Video Essentials and educate yourself.
So Mike makes a nice detailed post and that's all you have to say? OK...
There was nothing else I felt like saying after he insisted on flaming me with this bullshit, bullshit bullshit. If he wants to maintain that s-video can be superior to YPbPr on the same set, that demonstrates of lack of understanding about video. Additionally I see no reason for him to flame me over mentioning that the S-video jack pin markings were inconsistent the DIN port markings right below it, and how that is not conducive to a post made specifically for those who can't read schematics. Correct or not is one thing, but to flame me for mentioning it.
Yes Digital Video Essentials, in addition to being a calibration disc is a very detailed explanation of how video and TV works. It goes into great details about analog signals as well. Although Video Essentials goes into greater detail about analog (being that it was for LaserDisc). In fact all this education is people's #1 complaint about DVE. They just want to calibrate their sets, they don't want to know how or why it works, and exactly what they're doing. Popping in DVE forces you to watch about 30 minutes at least on the difference video standards, how TVs work, and the history of TVs before you get to calibration. If you watch all three Video Essentials discs, Video Essentials, Digital Video Essential, and DVE HD Basics, you'll get a pretty good handle on how video was worked for the inception of TV through today. If you just want to calibrate get Disney's WoW Disc.
In unrelated news, and I'm sure this will be of great despair to you all, I am done with this community.
I have Video Essentials, the LD. It's pretty useful, but it isn't exactly educational and it doesn't go into much detail at all about analog signals. I agree it is too long winded though.
The point, anyway, is that Y/C can indeed be superior to YPBPR on the same set in certain circumstances. In other circumstances composite can be better than Y/C. This is absolutely positively true. Mike is a gigantic asshole but he's absolutely correct in this matter and you maybe need to go back to working at Best Buy to repeat the home theater sales floor crash course you flunked out of.
Quote from: jamisonia on 01/28/2013, 12:25 PMQuote from: ApolloBoy on 01/28/2013, 03:42 AMQuote from: jamisonia on 01/28/2013, 12:33 AMYou clearly don't understand how video works. Pick up a copy of Digital Video Essentials and educate yourself.
So Mike makes a nice detailed post and that's all you have to say? OK...
In unrelated news, and I'm sure this will be of great despair to you all, I am done with this community.
Dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.... :) Have a nice day.
Because fuck all, so enjoy the lulz:
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?msg=280766
Anyway, if I can track down a copy of the old software I used to use for capping game play, I will make some composite/s-video compare videos to update this thread.
Jamisonia, ahh yes, a true breakfast cereal if i ever saw one. Fruits, nuts, and flakes. Noob jumps into the forums and immediatly stirs the shit by crapping on mike, ignores everyone else's statements, then claims he was doing it in self defense. Just one more troll looking for 15 minutes of forum fame. Now he's gonna take his football and go home, leaving us empty handed with no ball to play with. Guess he showed us...............
Not exactly empty handed, I got a video out of it. :P
=D>
Back on the original topic, has anyone compared this newer s-video mod with the CXA1645 one?
I made a screenshot comparison page based on the CXA mod some time ago if anyone is interested: http://quebecgamers.com/sensato/Workshop/PCE_svid.htm
I took my screenshots with some ATI All-In-Wonder capture card from an old PC I don't have anymore.
The difference between svideo and composite seems bigger to me with these screenshots (based on the CXA1645 svideo mod) than with the newer mod but I will have to try the newer mod to see how it really does.
I almost pray that the output from the new mod is of similar quality than with the CXA mod because the new mod is simply MUCH easier to perform.
Quote from: Sensato Black Lion on 03/05/2013, 09:23 AMBack on the original topic, has anyone compared this newer s-video mod with the CXA1645 one?
I made a screenshot comparison page based on the CXA mod some time ago if anyone is interested: http://quebecgamers.com/sensato/Workshop/PCE_svid.htm
I took my screenshots with some ATI All-In-Wonder capture card from an old PC I don't have anymore.
The difference between svideo and composite seems bigger to me with these screenshots (based on the CXA1645 svideo mod) than with the newer mod but I will have to try the newer mod to see how it really does.
I almost pray that the output from the new mod is of similar quality than with the CXA mod because the new mod is simply MUCH easier to perform.
My Duo originally had the even better CXA 2075 S-video mod, which looked just a bit better than CXA 1645 from what I could tell. Now I have it with the newer S-video mod in the same Duo... which I added while I sent it off for a cap replacement after my attempt that went wrong.
I can tell you for sure, it is definitely better. First of all, even the pics you posted show it very well; the colors are more accurate and has a brighter picture more like you see in the original composite video, but much more vibrant and sharp. So you get the right colors and the brighter picture as intended. The new S-Video mod along with some caps added also gets rid of any jail bars and the subtle RF-like interference.
I say remove any CXA based S-Video mods and replace it with the new one.
Quote from: Sensato Black Lion on 03/05/2013, 09:23 AMBack on the original topic, has anyone compared this newer s-video mod with the CXA1645 one?
I made a screenshot comparison page based on the CXA mod some time ago if anyone is interested: http://quebecgamers.com/sensato/Workshop/PCE_svid.htm
I took my screenshots with some ATI All-In-Wonder capture card from an old PC I don't have anymore.
The difference between svideo and composite seems bigger to me with these screenshots (based on the CXA1645 svideo mod) than with the newer mod but I will have to try the newer mod to see how it really does.
I almost pray that the output from the new mod is of similar quality than with the CXA mod because the new mod is simply MUCH easier to perform.
That's a great comparison, Sensato. I don't think my composite looks that bad, but when I record it to DVD it ends up blurrier than what I see on the TV. S-video looks sooo much sharper, though. I'm really tempted to try this out.
Quote from: SNKNostalgia on 03/05/2013, 07:46 PMMy Duo originally had the even better CXA 2075 S-video mod, which looked just a bit better than CXA 1645 from what I could tell. Now I have it with the newer S-video mod in the same Duo... which I added while I sent it off for a cap replacement after my attempt that went wrong.
I can tell you for sure, it is definitely better. First of all, even the pics you posted show it very well; the colors are more accurate and has a brighter picture more like you see in the original composite video, but much more vibrant and sharp. So you get the right colors and the brighter picture as intended. The new S-Video mod along with some caps added also gets rid of any jail bars and the subtle RF-like interference.
I say remove any CXA based S-Video mods and replace it with the new one.
Good to have some opinions on that.
Something bugs me a bit though. Aren't the right colors are supposed to be the ones you get with RGB? S-video should be closer to RGB than composite, no? I mean composite colors might be the ones we are used to, but are they really the right colors?
This might already have been talked about earlier in the topic but since the chroma from the new svideo mod actually comes from a filtered composite video, I have a bit of a hard time understanding how they can be better than with the CXA mod.
New Svid colors: RGB to composite to chroma
CXA svid colors: RGB to chroma
I might not be as simple as that...
I have to agree that the CXA mod makes things a bit darker than they should be and that the jailbars can be annoying.
I will definitely do a side by side comparison very soon.
Quote from: guest on 03/05/2013, 08:03 PMThat's a great comparison, Sensato. I don't think my composite looks that bad, but when I record it to DVD it ends up blurrier than what I see on the TV. S-video looks sooo much sharper, though. I'm really tempted to try this out.
Yeah, the screen caps from that page are a bit off compared to what they look like on your TV. It's unfortunately like that for ll my screenshots comparison pages.
I did a quick test earlier this morning and I must admit that I'm impressed with the "new mod".
I have some major color bleeding for now though but I blame the old .001 uf cap I used. The bleeding I have does not appear in screencaps seen in previous posts from other members.
There is VERY little chances that I'll ever spend 3-4 hours building another CXA1645 svideo circuit for the PCE...
Props to everyone who contributed to this mod!
Quote from: Sensato Black Lion on 03/05/2013, 09:48 PMSomething bugs me a bit though. Aren't the right colors are supposed to be the ones you get with RGB? S-video should be closer to RGB than composite, no? I mean composite colors might be the ones we are used to, but are they really the right colors?
Bonknuts talked about this somewhere; essentially, the RGB pins from the Hu6260 video encoder chip haven't gone through some kind of colorspace adjustment that occurs internally. So actually, the raw RGB is technically kind of wrong colorspace-wise versus the Luma/Y that the same chip produces internally and outputs via pin 40 (
this applies to the Chroma as well). Search his account if you want details.
Quote from: Sensato Black Lion on 03/06/2013, 09:20 AMThere is VERY little chances that I'll ever spend 3-4 hours building another CXA1645 svideo circuit for the PCE...
Yeah, unnecessary for numerous reasons, the one above and the obvious one as far as how easy and cheap this is! Some foreign chip is never going to match the properly produced/mixed Luma/Y that the Hu6260 chip was already producing. What happened is it appears that technical people discovered the RGB+Sync pins first and the Luma/Y pin was discovered much later... So that's why the early mods required some foreign chip and hooking it up to the RGB+Sync lines. Luma/Y is produced by mixing RGB+Sync, 4 signals, and it's far more likely that Hudson engineers did a better job of mixing it properly than what some foreign chip can do by starting over, etc.
Still, there are more tweaks possible. You can get a pure/perfect Chroma by disconnecting the Luma/Y from the internal amplifier instead of using a filter capacitor - go a couple of pages back on this thread, I already talked about it. That's if you're willing to do that and restore Composite support by alternate means. The other thing is that the S8050 or 2n3904 transistors aren't the best way to amplify a video signal... There are chips that do a better job than a transistor and give you different/better results like the NJM2267 chip for example. Refer to ConHuevos here who used my SNES Component amp circuit (http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?p=108698#p108698) which I designed around the S8050. He built that first, but then bought the NJM2267 and built a far more complex circuit just for purely amplification purposes here (NOT mixing). It's visibly better than the result with the S8050 transistor (
which is equivalent to the 2n3904).
Anyhow, the simple point is you're dealing with a natively produced Luma/Y signal here and all you need is a good way to amplify it; going as far as getting another chip to mix it from raw RGB+Sync is never going to be as good and it might even introduce incompatibility problems as well (
because of the Sync mixing and amplifying!!)... But on the other hand, when it comes to amplifying, these chips will tend to be better than generic transistors, etc. Overall, this transistor-based S-Video circuit is very cheap and very easy, so most people will be able to do it themselves and that outweighs most other factors. If you're a perfectionist like me though, you'll wanna go further. ;)
Quote from: Sensato Black Lion on 03/05/2013, 09:23 AMhttp://quebecgamers.com/sensato/Workshop/PCE_svid.htm
Great job on this BTW; a Javascript mouseover to switch between the S-Video shot and back was a good idea. My Turbo Duo Composite was pretty shitty I always thought, I think your shots capture it, even though it's with a capture card.
There is a lot of interesting info in that post NightWolve. I will definitely read this entire post and look more deeply into it.
Quote from: NightWolve on 03/06/2013, 01:11 PMhttp://quebecgamers.com/sensato/Workshop/PCE_svid.htm
Great job on this BTW; a Javascript mouseover to switch between the S-Video shot and back was a good idea. My Turbo Duo Composite was pretty shitty I always thought, I think your shots capture it, even though it's with a capture card.
Thanks! The mouse over idea wasn't mine though. I borrowed it from a guy who had PCE Screenshots vs Wii Screenshots. I believe it was Black Tiger on his Superpcenginegrafx site. There were some Virtual Console screenshots vs PCE screenshots done with the rollover script. Can't seem to find that page anymore.
Glad that people are using this mod to much success, and also finding ways to improve on it. At any rate, because I don't want anyone to be confused as to who originated this mod, actual thanks should go to the others who worked on it originally, which did not include me (certain Genesis II region mod, or Sony CXA1145 svideo mod, sure I was involved, but this one, nope, not me). All I did was do my own testing once I got a couple decks again, and provided a easy to understand schematic for some to use who might have a harder time with a more traditional one.
The guys who actually came up with this mod originally should be taking the credit for it. TheSteve was one of them I believe, and also one or two others. I don't think Drakon can be included in that list though, since whatever he was doing was going in a separate direction, removing components and using diff values, etc.
As for the color bleeding you are getting Black Lion, I cant really comment on that. I don't have that kind of issue on the decks I have done. Hopefully you can get it sorted out.
If you're getting color bleeding through S-video, try checking your ground connections. I've found that leaving the ground unconnected on either the chroma or luma lines can lead to some horrible color bleeding.
Quote from: ApolloBoy on 03/12/2013, 01:11 PMIf you're getting color bleeding through S-video, try checking your ground connections. I've found that leaving the ground unconnected on either the chroma or luma lines can lead to some horrible color bleeding.
I'll check that thanks. I went and got some new .001 uf caps from a local shop. I tested the circuit with a cap from the batch he gave me and now I get no colors at all! Nice.
I asked for 1 nanofarads ceramic caps but he apparently gave me 1 picofarads caps. I also paid 50 cents each which seems a bit expensive to me. I'm always glad to buy local but sometimes it's a bit hard considering the difference in price. In this case, it still doesn't make the mod very expensive so I guess I shouldn't really complain.
that is a bit high
you can leave the cap out as well
For the 220 ohm resistor, what do you recommend? 1w? 1/4w?
The smallest are perfectly fine, 1/8 watt. Get a 500 pack from somewhere like this:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2994585
A solid 220 Ohm resistor will actually be like ~215 Ohms when measured, which is just about perfect resistance for the amplified output of a 2n3904 or S8050 transistor when powered with a +5V source for the Luma signal.
Right on, thanks for the info. Here are the digikey part numbers for what I'll be using in case people don't feel like digging through their catalog. I think it should be fine to use 30awg wire to get the 5v from the expansion port to the SS8050, someone correct me if I should use thicker wire or stranded wire.
S-video jack - CP-2840-ND
SS8050 transistor - SS8050CBU-ND
220 ohm resistor - CF18JT220KCT-ND
SPDT rocker switch (if you want to retain composite) - 450-1016-ND
Other Stuff:
Wire wrap 30 AWG that I like from sparkfun - https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8031 (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/8031)
Solder from sparkfun - https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10240 (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10240)
S-video cable from monoprice - http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10207&cs_id=1020701&p_id=2896&seq=1&format=2 (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10207&cs_id=1020701&p_id=2896&seq=1&format=2)
Quote from: Sensato Black Lion on 03/06/2013, 09:20 AMI did a quick test earlier this morning and I must admit that I'm impressed with the "new mod".
I have some major color bleeding for now though but I blame the old .001 uf cap I used. The bleeding I have does not appear in screencaps seen in previous posts from other members.
DSC01256CustomCustom.jpg (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/jpbsun/Duo%20Repair/DSC01256CustomCustom_zpsa9105ed3.jpg)
I found out a few weeks ago that the "bleeding" I was talking about only occurs on one of my monitor. Turns out that that monitor doesn't like the composite video through the cap for chroma. The bleeding was all gone when I removed the resistor mentionned in Drakon's variant of the mod. I thought this might interest some of you...
Quote from: chipperkwah on 03/27/2013, 03:02 PMSS8050 transistor - SS8050CBU-ND
FYI, ebay's the way to go for this transistor.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-PCS-S8050D-S8050-8050-NPN-Transistor-NEW-TO-92-/ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-PCS-S8050D-S8050-8050-NPN-Transistor-NEW-TO-92-/260805941343?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb93ed85f)
Pay $4 bucks with shipping, get 100 pieces and have plenty to spare in case of other projects, etc. You must specify to the seller that you want the S8050, not the other 2 types listed.
QuoteS-video jack - CP-2840-ND
Fair warning on this female S-Video jack part: I bought the same one from markertek and it did NOT include the hexagonal nut as pictured in the photo! I had to make my own, a really improvised solution...
Quote from: Sensato Black Lion on 04/29/2013, 12:24 AMI found out a few weeks ago that the "bleeding" I was talking about only occurs on one of my monitor. Turns out that that monitor doesn't like the composite video through the cap for chroma. The bleeding was all gone when I removed the resistor mentionned in Drakon's variant of the mod. I thought this might interest some of you...
Hmm, that's good to know, so some monitors might not like the Chroma filtered out of a Composite signal via a simple capacitor. You might wanna think about my idea here (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=12339.msg288288#msg288288) though of a switch instead of permanently breaking Composite support via resistor removal. A little more work, but better than permanently breaking it. It's based on what I did for my SNES:
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff216/Sephiroth1975/Tech/CompositeSwitch.jpg)
So in the case of a TG-16/Turbo Duo, when the switch is in the C position (or Off), Luma is disconnected from the internal Composite circuit and all you're getting out of the yellow Composite output is a pure Chroma signal. When you disconnect your S-Video cable and need to go back to using Composite, you flip the switch and voila, it's back to working normally, etc. Note that modern TVs are phasing out S-Video support while still mostly maintaining Composite support, so you really don't want to permanently break it...
My trick above was so that I didn't need to drill a hole for a 4th yellow RCA jack. When it's in the C position, the green jack is outputting regular Composite. When it's in the opposite position, it's outputting pure Luma for use via a Component connection as intended, etc. I don't have a 'L' sticker to put there for 'Luma'. But anyway, you get the idea. You'd have a switch just like that next to your female S-Video output jack and the switch would interrupt a trace of the Luma signal; break the trace, connect 2 wires to both ends and to the switch. That's about it, just gotta find a good point to break/cut the trace. I hope this was a PC Engine with a normal sized resistor and not a surface mount one, or otherwise, I guess you probably broke it for good and didn't care at the time.
What was the name of the monitor/model number for the one having issues? That has to be a pretty rare event because even my sucky Dynex crt TV worked with the s-vid mod fine. I've yet to run into issues with any of my Tvs via the mod (I own 5 tvs, plus cap card also which it worked on fine), so makes me wonder.
Quote from: NightWolve on 04/29/2013, 04:15 PMHmm, that's good to know, so some monitors might not like the Chroma filtered out of a Composite signal via a simple capacitor. You might wanna think about my idea here (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=12339.msg288288#msg288288) though of a switch instead of permanently breaking Composite support via resistor removal. A little more work, but better than permanently breaking it.
I hope this was a PC Engine with a normal sized resistor and not a surface mount one, or otherwise, I guess you probably broke it for good and didn't care at the time.
Yeah, there is no way I'm breaking composite compatibility. The mod was done on a US Duo and I aready installed a composite/svideo switch. I'm curious to know what that switch does on your SNES...
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 04/29/2013, 05:57 PMWhat was the name of the monitor/model number for the one having issues? That has to be a pretty rare event because even my sucky Dynex crt TV worked with the s-vid mod fine. I've yet to run into issues with any of my Tvs via the mod (I own 5 tvs, plus cap card also which it worked on fine), so makes me wonder.
The monitor is an LG M228WA. I've had it for about 5 years and, from what I recall, I never had any problem with any other svideo output/mod (and I've tried many different svideo mods on it). Other mods still look good on it to this day.
Not that it would make any difference but, I get the same "bleeding" results with the mod on that monitor whether it's done on a TG16 or an american Duo.
Is anyone one else here running into that issue that Black Lion is having? Also, Black Lion, I've read both good and bad things about your monitor. That one hails from back in 07 when they were kind of skimping on the SD inputs processing, so I am not too surprised that you are having a issue on it, even if it does seem like a random fluke for you. You're monitor maintains like a 6.5 out of 10 rating on Testfreaks. That is really not a good rating at all for a LCD. Pretty much the only really good reviews for it are from people who only use it for modern equipment.
If anyone else is having the same or similar issue with this mod as Black Lion, what tv are you using? LCD, CRT, make, model, year, etc?
Quote from: Sensato Black Lion on 04/29/2013, 07:22 PMYeah, there is no way I'm breaking composite compatibility. The mod was done on a US Duo and I aready installed a composite/svideo switch.
Ah good.
QuoteI'm curious to know what that switch does on your SNES...
Already mentioned, 2nd paragraph under the photo. Got the idea from new TV sets that had 3 RCA jacks for Component, but the green jack is colored half green/half yellow to indicate that it'll accept either a Composite signal or a Luma if using Component. I wouldn't be smart enough to do a digital automatic switch, so a manual switch is what I could do and that really is the best way technically (no contamination possible at all). The reason manufacturers are doing it is to save on real estate. Instead of 4 female RCA jacks in the input module, you'll only need 3. So lately, all you see on input modules is RF for the antenna, 3 RCA jacks for Component/Composite and 2 or more HDMI inputs, etc.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 04/29/2013, 07:49 PMIs anyone one else here running into that issue that Black Lion is having? Also, Black Lion, I've read both good and bad things about your monitor. That one hails from back in 07 when they were kind of skimping on the SD inputs processing, so I am not too surprised that you are having a issue on it, even if it does seem like a random fluke for you. You're monitor maintains like a 6.5 out of 10 rating on Testfreaks. That is really not a good rating at all for a LCD. Pretty much the only really good reviews for it are from people who only use it for modern equipment.
If anyone else is having the same or similar issue with this mod as Black Lion, what tv are you using? LCD, CRT, make, model, year, etc?
From what I've seen, most complaints I've read about this monitor is that it has bad sound. I'd also assume that most of the people who bought this monitor were to use it with modern stuff.
This MIGHT be the ONLY monitor with which this newer svideo mod causes trouble, but untill I'm 100% sure of this, I won't take any chances modding systems for others without adding a composite/svideo switch.
@NightWolve: oups sorry, looks like I didn't read that last paragraph. Hm, well thought about that composite/component switch!
Quote from: Sensato Black Lion on 04/29/2013, 08:28 PMThis MIGHT be the ONLY monitor with which this newer svideo mod causes trouble, but untill I'm 100% sure of this, I won't take any chances modding systems for others without adding a composite/svideo switch.
I don't blame you on that, but I did read that others had issues with SD content on that monitor in regards to picture quality leaving a lot to be desired. It's pretty much a given that its chips handling the analog SD contents processing is subpar. As with any older cheaper to medium priced LCD monitor, this can happen. Everything analog SD wise is handled with a lot of processing compared to a SD CRT tv, so skimp on the tv cost, risk having issues. I waited until 2010 before I bought my Toshiba, and I only did it after looking up tons of reviews for its SD support, which ended up being rather highly regarded. I paid almost $500 for mine, but it gives good results. I am just at that point anymore where I don't want to run 8 to 16-bit stuff on it anymore. I have become spoiled.
Like I said, if anyone else is having the same or similar issue, would be helpful to have it posted on here, and to have their monitor model and type and year make listed. I would be really curious to see if it is happening to others if it is only related to LCD type monitors and if so, if it is just older types. Also just to state, I don't think the people who developed this mod had any intentions for others to just use it to mod other peoples systems for profit, nor did I provide the original post easy to read one for this purpose. Unless you have access to quite a few SD and HD tvs for testing (like me) then you have no business doing it for others for pay either.
I say to hell with the LCD for retrogaming and locate a Sony PVM/BVM RGB monitor (handles composite and S-Video nicely also). If you can't get one that easily, just find yourself a decent 20"-27" Sony Trinitron from '99-2004. Stay away from the EDTV/HDTV CRTs for 240p gaming if you can. They are a nice alternative for 480i/p gaming but you lose scanlines with 240p due to line-doubling.
Color bleeding can be happen if the wrong capacitor to go from composite sync to the S vid jack is used. Also double check the grounding cause that does what you have pictured as well. Test for a moment without the capacitor and see what happens.
Going to be doing the s-video mod here in the next couple days, whenever my new iron shows up. I'll be taking nice high-res photos throughout the process, and I was wondering if it would be preferable to post them in this thread or start a new one? If PCEngineHell wants I can just send him the photos and he can add them to the first post. Or, anyone that wants to use them can use them in a guide.
sorry to bump this but with the transistor, I want to make sure I'm looking at this right.
obviously the Base leg goto HuC6260
is the collector leg the 5 volt line and the emitter to the s-video socket? I assume yes but want to be sure.
Quote from: bigbacon on 01/28/2014, 07:34 PMsorry to bump this but with the transistor, I want to make sure I'm looking at this right.
obviously the Base leg goto HuC6260
is the collector leg the 5 volt line and the emitter to the s-video socket? I assume yes but want to be sure.
Yes, and don't forget to add the 220 ohm resistor to the emitter.
ok so I tried this tonight and failed. I don't get video. My standard composite mod still works fine but the s-video is a no go.
far as I can tell, everything is connected correctly. the grounds work as I can use my multimeter and get a reading from the s-video cable to the pin on the EXT port.
I am not a electronic wiz but I get no reading through the capasitor, is that normal? I am assuming as even a new unused one does the same.
I assume I did something stupid but not sure what. My connections all seem good from the end of the cable to the back of the connector. Not sure how to test the rest.
Post a picture please. I may be able to help you out if I can see what was done.
Here are some pics of how I did the S-video for a TG16. Maybe this will help you. Also, please note that there is no capacitor in the picture. I hadn't hooked one up yet when the pic was taken.
Quote from: Keith Courage on 11/02/2012, 01:41 PMThought I'd post an update on doing S-video for a TG16 or PC engine that originally had the RF out. This is the easiest S-video mod to do. Some of you may already know this but I found better spots to tap moist signals needed. You can tap 5V and the Composite sync straight from two of the pins that originally went to the RF out. So if you de-solder your RF you can do your mod this way. So this saves having to run really long wires all the way to your expansion port and makes a sturdier connection for the transistor. Also, make sure to still use a 0.001 capacitor. There isn't one in the picture shown. I temporarily hooked it up that way for quick testing purposes.
cimg6863.jpg
cimg6867i.jpg
I'll get some photos later today. I stupidily encased stuff in hot glue BEFORE testing it like an idiot.
I have other photos if needed. it is quite messy.
starshipvonbraun.com/ss/sega/p1050230.jpg
well... doesn't matter now. I broke it
Quote from: bigbacon on 01/29/2014, 10:29 AMI have other photos if needed. it is quite messy.
http://starshipvonbraun.com/ss/sega/p1050230.jpg (http://starshipvonbraun.com/ss/sega/p1050230.jpg)
Lol looks like a Drakon job.
I remember reading somewhere someone was working on a kit similar to the ones for Atari and Colecovision has anyone heard anything about that.
Cheers
For something this simple I don't really think you need a kit. It's only a single transistor, single cap, single resistor and an S-vid jack, not much else to it.
Easy for you to say :)
Also I like a professional look underneath ( OCD )
2600-6.jpg
I think that I may try this soon. It looks relatively simple and should be able to get all the parts I need at the Fry's Electronics near where I work.
I plan on hooking this up to a Commodore 1702 monitor, which allows for separate Chroma/Luma inputs. I figure the S-Video Mod plus one of the below cables will really make things look nice on that monitor (which looks amazing even with composite).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hosa-6Ft-S-Video-Breakout-Cable-S-Video-Male-Male-RCA-VSA356-/390929793225?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b053b40c9 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hosa-6Ft-S-Video-Breakout-Cable-S-Video-Male-Male-RCA-VSA356-/390929793225?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b053b40c9)
I also recently got a RetroN 3 system, which allows for S-Vid out, so using that cable and monitor I think that the NES/SNES/Genny games I'll be playing will look great too.
Any suggestions or advice on potential pitfalls with this mod? I'm a bit rusty with the ol' soldering iron, but overall this looks very simple.
Quote from: Marll on 10/24/2014, 03:23 PMI think that I may try this soon. It looks relatively simple and should be able to get all the parts I need at the Fry's Electronics near where I work.
I plan on hooking this up to a Commodore 1702 monitor, which allows for separate Chroma/Luma inputs. I figure the S-Video Mod plus one of the below cables will really make things look nice on that monitor (which looks amazing even with composite).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hosa-6Ft-S-Video-Breakout-Cable-S-Video-Male-Male-RCA-VSA356-/390929793225?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b053b40c9 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hosa-6Ft-S-Video-Breakout-Cable-S-Video-Male-Male-RCA-VSA356-/390929793225?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b053b40c9)
I also recently got a RetroN 3 system, which allows for S-Vid out, so using that cable and monitor I think that the NES/SNES/Genny games I'll be playing will look great too.
Any suggestions or advice on potential pitfalls with this mod? I'm a bit rusty with the ol' soldering iron, but overall this looks very simple.
+1 to this man for the necro.
Haha, very true!
At least the last post before me was this year and not something from 2008 I suppose :oops:
Quick question, I see a lot of people talking about retaining composite when doing the s-vid mod. Are there any worries about not being able to get composite vid from the expansion port once the mod is done? I'd like to retain the capability of my CD dock, just adding s-vid to the Turbo.
Also I see that what appears to be the easiest way to mount the s-vid jack is to remove the RF box. For arguments sake, would it be easy (though with case mods) to mound the s-vid on the back of the system?
yes S-vid can be done without losing composite
yes if you want to cut a hole you can mount it wherever
That being said it appears that the easiest way to do the s-vid mod would be to remove the RF box and mount the jack in that hole.
What is the preferred method that people use to mound it to the PCB or case?
Does anyone have a preferred parts list/model numbers for the various items required for the mod?
Should be noted that Chroma and Luma can be combined to make Composite from S-Video, even temporary when needed.
These always work well if you need composite instead of s-video at any point http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-Female-Composite-Video-to-S-Video-VHS-Male-Adapter-Connector-Gold-Plated-/301130903739?pt=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item461cccf0bb (http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-Female-Composite-Video-to-S-Video-VHS-Male-Adapter-Connector-Gold-Plated-/301130903739?pt=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item461cccf0bb)
Yeah those connectors might come in handy at some point. My plan is to take s-vid from the TG16 and sound from the CD dock.
I don't think I saw one (but maybe I missed it buried in other posts), but is there a parts list for the various components needed for the mod? Like a preferred s-vid jack, transistor, etc.? How do people that do the mod typically prefer to mount the s-vid jack to the system?
Quote from: Keith Courage on 11/05/2014, 04:02 PMThese always work well if you need composite instead of s-video at any point http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-Female-Composite-Video-to-S-Video-VHS-Male-Adapter-Connector-Gold-Plated-/301130903739?pt=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item461cccf0bb (http://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-Female-Composite-Video-to-S-Video-VHS-Male-Adapter-Connector-Gold-Plated-/301130903739?pt=US_Video_Cables_Adapters&hash=item461cccf0bb)
I was going to ask about these. Seems to be a good idea if we're "removing" composite for s-video.
Hey, I just wanted to post an update on this modification. Especially when it comes to the background hex pattern that people have been mentioning seeing when the screen scrolls.
I have tested this on many TVs and have found that some Newer HD CRT TVs have this issue where as slightly older CRT TVs do not.
For example I have owned two 36" Sony Trinitron HDCRT TVs. One was made in 2001 and the other 2002. Both TVs show an extreme hex pattern in backgrounds when the screen scrolls using this s-video modification. However any non HD CRT TV I have tried it on looks absolutely perfect with no signs of the hex pattern whatsoever. So wiring is definitely not the problem. I would like to also add that the same TV that has problems with this mod also will not work with Light guns for various systems nor does it appear to have any visible scan-lines even though it is a CRT TV. So be aware that some newer HDCRT TVs may not work well for retro games or this s-video mod and that the picture in general may not be as good as some other CRT TVs from the missing scanlines whether you are going s-video or not.
Not all HDCRT TVs are bad for retro games. I came across a 27" Sanyo HDCRT that still has scanlines, still works with light guns, and displays no hex background pattern when using s-video.
I just wanted to warn people since I've heard of lots of retro gamers getting Sony HDCRT TVs for their gaming. Test before you buy.
Yeah, I'm not crazy about HDCRTS, they are better than lcd sets for old gaming but not great. Better to get one of the later SD Trinitrons.
I just wish my Mitsubishi megaview was working... I just picked it up for RGB and it died the next day. Was a month the ago. I can't find the service manual...
for most things you dont need the service man
tell us more about this megaview
I took it to a local repair guy. I can solder and add wires to stuff but I'm afraid of really messing around in a CRT. I don't know what I'm really doing in there...
He says its putting out only 6v, from the PSU. He changed some "misc parts" but is not being very informative. I should just pick it up... I don't think he really knows how to troubleshoot or trace an issue. He's asking for help on finding schematics.
It was flashing a picture, at startup for a split second, and then going black. Audio was working fine - I cycled the power a couple times and then the audio was super low (like caps).
I was getting the same result in s video and composite (currently no RGB and don't try VGA)
When it worked, this thing was great.
Console Repair/Mod Center => Topic started by: PCEngineHell on 09/13/2012, 04:37 PM