Saturn vs PC FX; Which was the better 2D machine?

Started by Artabasdos, 03/20/2017, 10:35 PM

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Artabasdos

03/20/2017, 10:35 PM Last Edit: 03/21/2017, 02:31 AM by Artabasdos
The Saturn is known for being a 2D powerhouse, especially with the likes of the 4MB RAM cart. However, looking at the PC FX's specs, it seems it is pretty capable too. So, does anyone know the answer?

SignOfZeta

#1
03/21/2017, 12:42 AM
Nobody ever made shit for FX so there's no way to know. I'd assume the Saturn obliterates it though, especially with that four mega meter rammer.
IMG

Artabasdos

#2
03/21/2017, 06:56 AM
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/21/2017, 12:42 AMNobody ever made shit for FX so there's no way to know. I'd assume the Saturn obliterates it though, especially with that four mega meter rammer.
Well, the PC FX got 60 odd games lol. Not quite up there with the Saturn's 1500+, but it has to be better than the Atari Jaguar!

majors

#3
03/21/2017, 08:46 AM
Quote from: Artabasdos on 03/21/2017, 06:56 AM... but it has to be better than the Atari Jaguar!
Low bar.
TG/PCE Collection.
"Booze should be a choice, not a privilege" -KCDC (The FP)

NecroPhile

#4
03/21/2017, 09:50 AM
The Saturn is more capable in pretty much every way.  The only thing the PC-FX has that's superior is more background layers.

That said, the PC-FX's capabilities aren't so terribly out classed that it couldn't pull off nice ports of most any of the Saturn's 2D games.
Ultimate Forum Bully/Thief/Saboteur/Clone Warrior! BURN IN HELL NECROPHUCK!!!

Gypsy

#5
03/21/2017, 11:33 AM
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/21/2017, 12:42 AMNobody ever made shit for FX so there's no way to know. I'd assume the Saturn obliterates it though, especially with that four mega meter rammer.
This was my first thought when I saw the thread. Would have been cool to see what later release PC-FX games would have looked like but oh well.

exodus

#6
03/21/2017, 03:43 PM
yeah, it's certainly the saturn across the board, especially when you add in the ram expansion.

Artabasdos

#7
03/21/2017, 04:43 PM
Quote from: guest on 03/21/2017, 09:50 AMThe Saturn is more capable in pretty much every way.  The only thing the PC-FX has that's superior is more background layers.

That said, the PC-FX's capabilities aren't so terribly out classed that it couldn't pull off nice ports of most any of the Saturn's 2D games.
I'd say it would probably beat the PS1 & 3DO in 2D games.

SignOfZeta

#8
03/21/2017, 05:21 PM
I'd say it beats anything made at that resolution for 2D. Yes it can't run Geo games perfectly but it can do things the Geo could never dream of.
IMG

SamIAm

#9
03/22/2017, 04:23 AM Last Edit: 03/22/2017, 04:27 AM by SamIAm
The PC-FX has several significant disadvantages, most of them related to sprites.

The biggest issue is that it can only draw 128 sprites on-screen at once. These come without any possible rotation or scaling effects, and they will flicker if you put too many of them on one horizontal line. Also, each sprite is limited to one 15/512 color sub-palette just like the PCE.

The Saturn's VDP1, by contrast, can draw so many sprite pixels that it can fill up the screen several times over. It could theoretically draw more background layers and sprites than the PC-FX without even using VDP2. It can rotate, scale, and otherwise warp sprites very freely, and it can draw them at a much greater color-depth. Of course, since it buffers everything, it never flickers.

The Playstation is no slouch, either. While the Saturn is so inefficient at making VDP1 sprites transparent over VDP2 backgrounds that most developers went with fake checkerboard transparencies, the Playstation doesn't have this problem, and it shows in a lot of games.

The problems for the PC-FX go on. It's got a significantly slower CPU, even against only one of the Saturn's SH2s. You're basically limited to 256x240 resolution if you want to use a lot of background layers, and there are no interlaced high-resolution modes. It can do one "Mode 7" layer and one transparent background layer, but no more than that. Video RAM for sprites and the CD drive buffer are only 256 kilobytes each vs. the Saturn's 512. Though it does potentially have more RAM for background tiles, that RAM is also where ADPCM goes, and there is plenty of motivation to want to store lots of that instead since the rest of the sound hardware is so obsolete.

About the only advantage that the PC-FX has over the Saturn is its FMV playback. You can start playing streaming FMV anytime without taxing any hardware other than the dedicated FMV chip, and you can mix it into games however you like. For example, you could easily make an auto-scrolling platformer or shooter that uses FMV as a background.

It certainly would have been possible to make beautifully animated action games for the PC-FX. It sounds like it would have been the most enjoyable system to program, too, and clever design probably could have gotten some surprises out of it. On the other hand, almost every graphically-fancy 2D game from the 32-bit era would have had to have been compromised in some way to run on the PC-FX with little room to compensate in other areas.

FraGMarE

#10
03/22/2017, 06:11 AM
Let's just cut all the bullshit.  Would it run Symphony of the Night?  ;)  lol

SignOfZeta

#11
03/22/2017, 10:49 AM
It would flicker for sure.

What about Mr Bones?

I'd like to see a good Densha de Go! type game for FX since those work very well with FMV.
IMG

elmer

#12
03/22/2017, 04:07 PM Last Edit: 03/22/2017, 05:21 PM by elmer
Quote from: SamIAm on 03/22/2017, 04:23 AMIt certainly would have been possible to make beautifully animated action games for the PC-FX. It sounds like it would have been the most enjoyable system to program, too, and clever design probably could have gotten some surprises out of it. On the other hand, almost every graphically-fancy 2D game from the 32-bit era would have had to have been compromised in some way to run on the PC-FX with little room to compensate in other areas.
This ... but with a few limits to my agreement.

Anything 2.5D or 3D (like Radiant Silvergun) would have needed the "3D" add-on in the PC-FXGA (basically a VDP1), to even start to compete, and then you might hit 3D-math performance issues with the V810 processor. OTOH ... it would have been able to pump out scaled & rotated sprites like mad!

But for a lot of the best 2D games that are relying on high-quality pixel art ... the Saturn's theoretical CPU power (it was MUCH lower in practical use) wouldn't be of any benefit at all.

After a quick look at YouTube ... I don't see that the PC-FX as-it-shipped would have had much trouble doing excellent versions of 2D games like Lunar or Princess Crown.

Sure, your backgrounds would probably be 256-wide instead of 320-wide ... but you could switch the PC-FX VDPs to 320-wide for the sprites if you don't mind losing its excellent multi-layer (I believe) transparency and using a Sega-style stipple-mask for shadows instead (probably not a good idea).

But where it would have dramatically lost against the Saturn in those games (in some sections) would be in the audio.

You'd *sometimes* need to keep the CD drive free for streaming new graphical assets into memory (on both the Saturn and the PC-FX), but the Saturn's audio hardware could still play back good music anyway.

Then the PC-FX would be limited to it's PC Engine sound, perhaps with an ADPCM instrument or two, and with no DSP-effects.

*PERHAPS* the PC-FX could have gotten away with streamed-ADPCM-audio, but the CD-seeking would have been rough on the drive.

Basically ... I think that the PC-FX could have done some really-nice 2D games, but there would always be *some* aspect where you'd say that the Saturn version was better.

The PC-FX's better FMV, and better transparency-control might have helped to mitigate those effects


But practically speaking, out-of-the-box, the Saturn has the more-powerful hardware ... it's just a huge PITA to program, and some of the limitations of the VDP1 and VDP2 can trip you up.

The PC-FX, OTOH, is a clean, simple and powerful architecture, just like the original PC Engine was in comparison to the limitations inherent in the "more-powerful" SNES and Genesis architectures.

SignOfZeta

#13
03/22/2017, 04:31 PM
Yeah, you don't hear it often, but Saturn chip tunes are at times first rate. For example, Panzer Dragoon Saga.
IMG

SamIAm

#14
03/22/2017, 10:51 PM
Symphony of the Night is a tough one.

The PC-FX basically couldn't do a straight port. Whether it could do a "good-enough" port really depends on where you draw the line. The game is chock full of graphical flourishes that probably would have to be cut from a PC-FX port. Tons of things rotate and scale. Alucard himself seems to be animated with the help of multiple rotating limbs.

Princess Crown, by the way, also does a lot of animating with rotation/scaling/warping. The main character's sword, for example, is actually just one graphic that gets manipulated like crazy.

From a player's standpoint, I don't think that the PC-FX is best remembered as a system that could have kept up with the Saturn and Playstation graphically in 2D if it had only had the support. I try to appreciate it more as a dream-machine for people of the 16-bit-era school of design.

Minus the sound hardware, of course.

SignOfZeta

#15
03/22/2017, 11:51 PM
The fair question is, how does the FX rate against the Playdia?
IMG

elmer

#16
03/23/2017, 12:09 AM
Quote from: SamIAm on 03/22/2017, 10:51 PMPrincess Crown, by the way, also does a lot of animating with rotation/scaling/warping. The main character's sword, for example, is actually just one graphic that gets manipulated like crazy.
The stuff that I saw on YouTube ... like the sword ... just looked like things that could easily be done with sprites, or on a high-priority background layer (without rotation). I missed the scaling in the game, wherever it was.


QuoteFrom a player's standpoint, I don't think that the PC-FX is best remembered as a system that could have kept up with the Saturn and Playstation graphically in 2D if it had only had the support. I try to appreciate it more as a dream-machine for people of the 16-bit-era school of design.
IMHO ... that's the realistic way of looking at it.

It could have easily held its own against Sega's rumored 5th-generation 2D-gaming sprite machine ... but then Sony appeared over the horizon, and Sega saw the Playstation specs and sh*t in their pants, and they started randomly throwing hardware into the Saturn design until they believed that it could compete.

The horrible everything-including-the-kitchen-sink and only-jokingly-called-a-design that they came up with, is an absolute monstrosity compared to the simple elegance of the Playstation ... but it sure is an interesting system, and very powerful if you can afford to spend the time to tailor your design to its hardware.

The PC-FX has a lot of excellent capabilities, I really like what I see in those design docs ... but it was primarily designed for a different war than the one that it ended-up fighting in.

Artabasdos

#17
03/23/2017, 05:45 AM
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/22/2017, 11:51 PMThe fair question is, how does the FX rate against the Playdia?
I have a Playdia! D:

Artabasdos

#18
03/23/2017, 05:47 AM Last Edit: 03/26/2017, 11:15 AM by Artabasdos
Quote from: SamIAm on 03/22/2017, 10:51 PMSymphony of the Night is a tough one.

The PC-FX basically couldn't do a straight port. Whether it could do a "good-enough" port really depends on where you draw the line. The game is chock full of graphical flourishes that probably would have to be cut from a PC-FX port. Tons of things rotate and scale. Alucard himself seems to be animated with the help of multiple rotating limbs.

Princess Crown, by the way, also does a lot of animating with rotation/scaling/warping. The main character's sword, for example, is actually just one graphic that gets manipulated like crazy.

From a player's standpoint, I don't think that the PC-FX is best remembered as a system that could have kept up with the Saturn and Playstation graphically in 2D if it had only had the support. I try to appreciate it more as a dream-machine for people of the 16-bit-era school of design.

Minus the sound hardware, of course.
IIRC Symphony of the Night is actually 3D as 2D, on both PS1 & Saturn, so I doubt the PC FX could handle it at all.

Was there ever a 3D add on planned for the FX?

SamIAm

#19
03/23/2017, 07:00 AM
Quote from: Artabasdos on 03/23/2017, 05:47 AMIIRC Symphony of the Night is actually 3D as 2D, on both PS1 Saturn, so I doubt the PC FX could handle it at all.
This...makes little sense, I'm afraid.

There is nothing in the game's core logic - the physics, the collision detection, the AI -  that would have necessitated or even had any use for a Z-axis. The same goes for the vast majority of the graphics. Only a tiny number of objects and effects, like the clock tower at the very beginning of the game, use what might be described as real 3D. These things would be mostly impossible on the PC-FX, it's true, but they're just ornaments. If anything, the developers probably had do extra work to adapt those objects to work in the main 2D engine.

You might have heard that the Playstation does all 2D as 3D because it slaps 2D graphics onto 3D polygons and displays everything from one locked perspective. This is kind of true. I don't know, I'm not a programmer and I'm not deeply familiar with the hardware. I'm guessing, though, that this only makes a very superficial difference in the way a 2D Playstation game is processed, e.g. that you have to add some perfunctory Z-axis coordinates but not actually do any math with them.

Anyway, 3D is not the reason why the PC-FX would have trouble doing a close conversion of Symphony of the Night. Lack of rotation and scaling support in the graphics hardware is.

QuoteWas there ever a 3D add on planned for the FX?
Yep. They had a chip lined up and everything. There was a board they released for PCs called the PC-FXGA that was aimed at hobbyists, and it actually had the chip in addition to the rest of the PC-FX hardware. Here is a video of the demo game that came with it.

Artabasdos

#20
03/23/2017, 07:12 AM
Quote from: SamIAm on 03/23/2017, 07:00 AM
Quote from: Artabasdos on 03/23/2017, 05:47 AMIIRC Symphony of the Night is actually 3D as 2D, on both PS1 Saturn, so I doubt the PC FX could handle it at all.
This...makes little sense, I'm afraid.

There is nothing in the game's core logic - the physics, the collision detection, the AI -  that would have necessitated or even had any use for a Z-axis. The same goes for the vast majority of the graphics. Only a tiny number of objects and effects, like the clock tower at the very beginning of the game, use what might be described as real 3D. These things would be mostly impossible on the PC-FX, it's true, but they're just ornaments. If anything, the developers probably had do extra work to adapt those objects to work in the main 2D engine.

You might have heard that the Playstation does all 2D as 3D because it slaps 2D graphics onto 3D polygons and displays everything from one locked perspective. This is kind of true. I don't know, I'm not a programmer and I'm not deeply familiar with the hardware. I'm guessing, though, that this only makes a very superficial difference in the way a 2D Playstation game is processed, e.g. that you have to add some perfunctory Z-axis coordinates but not actually do any math with them.

Anyway, 3D is not the reason why the PC-FX would have trouble doing a close conversion of Symphony of the Night. Lack of rotation and scaling support in the graphics hardware is.

QuoteWas there ever a 3D add on planned for the FX?
Yep. They had a chip lined up and everything. There was a board they released for PCs called the PC-FXGA that was aimed at hobbyists, and it actually had the chip in addition to the rest of the PC-FX hardware. Here is a video of the demo game that came with it.
Here, this explains it a bit. AFAIK the Saturn version is handled in the same fashion, so is inferior to the PS1 game. No doubt had they built it from the ground up on Saturn it would have surpassed thevPS1.

That's pretty impressive. Looks around the 3DO or 32X level of 3D!

Artabasdos

#21
03/23/2017, 08:01 AM
Also, this is a pretty nice example of the PC FX graphics wise.

elmer

#22
03/23/2017, 12:20 PM
Quote from: Artabasdos on 03/23/2017, 08:01 AMAlso, this is a pretty nice example of the PC FX graphics wise.
You might want to watch this video instead ...

pc_kwajalein

#23
03/23/2017, 04:49 PM
Quote from: elmer on 03/23/2017, 12:20 PM
Quote from: Artabasdos on 03/23/2017, 08:01 AMAlso, this is a pretty nice example of the PC FX graphics wise.
You might want to watch this video instead ...
That shit is utterly amazing. I admit I've never heard of Choujin Heiki Zeroigar before this thread, but it's hitting on all the right notes for me.
My past-life would've surely led to our demise, and I had left it not a moment too soon. Our escape, though dangerous, had gone well. The train ride, sunlight, and passing snow-covered pine trees came together in a flickering show of our bright, new future together. Her head rested on my shoulder as she soundly slept to the gentle rocking of the passenger car. We felt freedom. We felt peace.

Gypsy

#24
03/23/2017, 05:20 PM
Zeroigar rocks and even has an English patch.

elmer

#25
03/23/2017, 06:10 PM
I'm curious to know how he found the unlock for the energy-cheat ... I thought that I'd hidden it pretty well.

He makes the game look way too easy ... which it isn't.

Artabasdos

#26
03/23/2017, 09:29 PM
Quote from: elmer on 03/23/2017, 12:20 PM
Quote from: Artabasdos on 03/23/2017, 08:01 AMAlso, this is a pretty nice example of the PC FX graphics wise.
You might want to watch this video instead ...
Cool stuff. Makes me wanna pickup an FX even more!

exodus

#27
03/24/2017, 06:53 PM
Bit of a side-note, but here's a cool thing to read about the PSX vs Saturn versions of SotN! http://www.vgmuseum.com/mrp/cv-sotn/documents/nocturne-port.htm

SamIAm

#28
03/24/2017, 09:02 PM
I had actually googled that just before.

On one hand, I could certainly buy that the Saturn version has more slowdown because they did sloppy retrofitting on the original Playstation code.

But on the other hand, the conclusion that SotN is really a 3D game and the Saturn has trouble with it because it's bad at 3D seems like it's probably a big oversimplification, and in more ways than one.

But I'll leave it at that.

You should all go play Zeroigar.  :)

Artabasdos

#29
03/25/2017, 01:28 PM
Quote from: SamIAm on 03/24/2017, 09:02 PMI had actually googled that just before.

On one hand, I could certainly buy that the Saturn version has more slowdown because they did sloppy retrofitting on the original Playstation code.

But on the other hand, the conclusion that SotN is really a 3D game and the Saturn has trouble with it because it's bad at 3D seems like it's probably a big oversimplification, and in more ways than one.

But I'll leave it at that.

You should all go play Zeroigar.  :)
Yeah, but is Zeroigar as pricey as some PCE stuff?

Gypsy

#30
03/25/2017, 03:04 PM
You can play Zeroigar for 10 cents on the original hardware.

Artabasdos

#31
03/25/2017, 03:14 PM
Quote from: Gypsy on 03/25/2017, 03:04 PMYou can play Zeroigar for 10 cents on the original hardware.
I'll have to dress my cat up as a parrot...

elmer

#32
03/25/2017, 03:35 PM
Quote from: Artabasdos on 03/25/2017, 03:14 PMI'll have to dress my cat up as a parrot...
Or pay $250+ to get a copy from Japan (last time that I looked).

It's a good game ... but not that good.

Gypsy

#33
03/25/2017, 04:14 PM
Yeah I mean, I don't want to start a morality debate or anything. Is the game available to buy digitally? A very quick and lazy search on my part says no, in which case I really see zero harm in downloading it. Ultimately it's a personal decision, but I can't see paying hundreds for it.

Artabasdos

#34
03/26/2017, 01:38 PM
Quote from: Gypsy on 03/25/2017, 04:14 PMYeah I mean, I don't want to start a morality debate or anything. Is the game available to buy digitally? A very quick and lazy search on my part says no, in which case I really see zero harm in downloading it. Ultimately it's a personal decision, but I can't see paying hundreds for it.
Highly doubt it. The FX is so obscure outside of hardcore retro fans.

Michirin9801

#35
03/26/2017, 02:49 PM
Quote from: Gypsy on 03/25/2017, 04:14 PMYeah I mean, I don't want to start a morality debate or anything. Is the game available to buy digitally? A very quick and lazy search on my part says no, in which case I really see zero harm in downloading it. Ultimately it's a personal decision, but I can't see paying hundreds for it.
If the original creators, or at the very least the publishers or rights holders aren't making any money off of the game anymore, then I'd say it's fair game...

Artabasdos

#36
03/27/2017, 02:38 AM
Quote from: Michirin9801 on 03/26/2017, 02:49 PM
Quote from: Gypsy on 03/25/2017, 04:14 PMYeah I mean, I don't want to start a morality debate or anything. Is the game available to buy digitally? A very quick and lazy search on my part says no, in which case I really see zero harm in downloading it. Ultimately it's a personal decision, but I can't see paying hundreds for it.
If the original creators, or at the very least the publishers or rights holders aren't making any money off of the game anymore, then I'd say it's fair game...
I can sort of agree with that. If it's cheap though I'd rather have the real thing.

esteban

#37
03/27/2017, 05:27 PM Last Edit: 03/27/2017, 05:29 PM by esteban
IMGIMG IMG  |  IMG  |  IMG IMG

Artabasdos

#38
03/28/2017, 02:54 AM
Nice, but be careful! This might be considered promoting piracy. IIRC that's against the rules.

Saying that, I have no problem with this. That's some good quality work on the manual.

geise

#39
03/28/2017, 06:20 PM
BAN ESTEBAN!!!!

esteban

#40
03/28/2017, 06:21 PM
Quote from: geise on 03/28/2017, 06:20 PM
BAN ESTEBAN!!!!
ASAP.

Thank you.
IMGIMG IMG  |  IMG  |  IMG IMG

elmer

#41
03/28/2017, 07:23 PM
Hey ... you can't ban esteban ... that manual and labels are far too nice!  :wink:

Thanks for those!  :dance:

ClodBusted

#42
03/29/2017, 01:22 AM
You'd rather get banned for posting a pair of bare boobies.

Will you accept the challenge?

Artabasdos

#43
03/29/2017, 04:06 AM Last Edit: 03/29/2017, 06:46 AM by Artabasdos
Quote from: elmer on 03/28/2017, 07:23 PMHey ... you can't ban esteban ... that manual and labels are far too nice!  :wink:

Thanks for those!  :dance:
As amusing as you may think that suggestion is, if this site runs off a 3rd party host, even those relatively benign posts could be enough to breach the hoster's rules, therefore likely leading to a suspension at best. They won't give a shit about the wink-wink attitudes between forum members.

ClodBusted

#44
03/29/2017, 06:36 AM
Vegeta, what does esteban's post count says about his penis length?

Artabasdos

#45
03/29/2017, 07:45 AM
Quote from: guest on 03/29/2017, 06:36 AMVegeta, what does esteban's post count says about his penis length?
Shouldn't that be in the T&A thread?

ClodBusted

#46
03/29/2017, 09:29 AM
Wrong answer.

NecroPhile

#47
03/29/2017, 09:58 AM
Quote from: Artabasdos on 03/28/2017, 02:54 AMNice, but be careful! This might be considered promoting piracy. IIRC that's against the rules.
Long timers like esteban know what's up.

The rules prohibit roms and isos being directly linked; that's it.  Nobody has prohibited scans of manuals, case/disc art, magazines, or the like.
Ultimate Forum Bully/Thief/Saboteur/Clone Warrior! BURN IN HELL NECROPHUCK!!!

Artabasdos

#48
03/29/2017, 10:38 AM
Quote from: guest on 03/29/2017, 09:58 AM
Quote from: Artabasdos on 03/28/2017, 02:54 AMNice, but be careful! This might be considered promoting piracy. IIRC that's against the rules.
Long timers like esteban know what's up.

The rules prohibit roms and isos being directly linked; that's it.  Nobody has prohibited scans of manuals, case/disc art, magazines, or the like.
That's good. I'd just feel a bit guilty if someone got banned in a thread I made.

Also, one of those pages discusses how to burn CD-Rs. Whilst fairly benign within a community, a 3rd party hoster could well consider it instructions for piracy. After being in that industry for a bit I can assure you I've seen account terminations for less. If this site is hosted from a private server the previous doesn't apply.

xcrement5x

#49
03/29/2017, 02:45 PM
Quote from: esteban on 03/27/2017, 05:27 PMASIDE:

For Zeroigar fans or the Zeroigar-curious:

Quotehttps://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_00_Cover.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_01_TOC.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_03_Ripping.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_05_Emulating.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_07_Story.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_09_Controls.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_11_Items.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_13_Leveling.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_15_Mode.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_17_Battle.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_19_Options.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_21_Gou.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_23_Kaoru.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_25_Zemu.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_27_Zars.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_29_Bavea.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_31_Credits.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_CD_Traycard.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_CD_Spinecard.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_CD_Label_Color.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_CD_Label_Gray.jpg

FAN COVERS:

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_00_Cover2.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_Page_00_Cover3.jpg


FAN CD LABELS (Color & Gray):

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_CD_Label_Fan_Color.jpg

https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Zeroigar_CD_Label_Fan_Gray.jpg
Someone should totally set that up so I can just run it through a printer with duplexing and that would be excellent.  I wonder if I could also use lightscribe to make a B/W print of the disc. 
Demented Clone Warrior Consensus: "My pirated forum clone is superior/more "moral" than yours, neener neener neener..."  ](*,)
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