RGB vs. Composite: screencaps (14400 baud warning ;-P)

ccovell · 12/08/2008, 11:36 AM

Hey, folks. I jury-rigged my Composite/S-Video capture box for my computer to accept R/G/B+sync over the luma line, so I could capture RGB video. Take a look below at the quality difference between regular composite and RGB, for those who have never modded their PCE or any other systems for RGB.

Sorry for the picture size, but you need large pictures to see the detail.
Composite ----> RGB

And here's Rockman 3 on the Famicom. Composite AV Fami vs. RGB Famicom Titler.

I adjusted the contrast/saturation level of the composite images to match the vividness of the RGB picture as much as I "realistically" could (ie: the same that you could adjust on a regular TV), but RGB is still much more vivid.

Joe Redifer · 12/08/2008, 11:52 AM

Wow, composite is so much more gooder with its blurring to create fake colors old games were meant 2 b played in composite not RGB lol.

That's what I get a lot over on Sega-16.com

I demand you find a way to mod my NES for RGB. No, I don't want a Famicom titler. I will send you my NES and you will send it back with an RGB mod and also $50 just for being graced by my NES.

ccovell · 12/08/2008, 12:18 PM

Yeah, I really ought to do some caps from the SMS and MD just to show how shitty composite is on those systems...

guyjin · 12/08/2008, 12:33 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 12/08/2008, 11:52 AMWow, composite is so much more gooder with its blurring to create fake colors old games were meant 2 b played in composite not RGB lol.

That's what I get a lot over on Sega-16.com

Would you rather watch a movie on 24 fps film, or 60fps video?

NecroPhile · 12/08/2008, 12:37 PM

Quote from: guyjin on 12/08/2008, 12:33 PMWould you rather watch a movie on 24 fps film, or 60fps video?

4K.

Joe Redifer · 12/08/2008, 01:29 PM

Quote from: guyjinWould you rather watch a movie on 24 fps film, or 60fps video?

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but I'll take 24fps film. As for Necro's "4K" comment, most films these days have a 2K digital intermediate which is barely a few lines better than 1080p. Pathetic.

rolins · 12/08/2008, 01:59 PM

Quote from: ccovell on 12/08/2008, 11:36 AMHey, folks. I jury-rigged my Composite/S-Video capture box for my computer to accept R/G/B+sync over the luma line, so I could capture RGB video. Take a look below at the quality difference between regular composite and RGB, for those who have never modded their PCE or any other systems for RGB.

Nice. What capture device did you modified to get RGB?

guyjin · 12/08/2008, 05:19 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 12/08/2008, 01:29 PM
Quote from: guyjinWould you rather watch a movie on 24 fps film, or 60fps video?
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but I'll take 24fps film.

more is not necessarily better. 'clearer' isn't either.

NecroPhile · 12/08/2008, 05:40 PM

I have no complaint over my Duo's composite, but the RGB screen shots look better (to me) in almost every way. The only bad thing I see is the cracked out hot pinks (i.e. - the title ribbon and Doraemon's tongue).

One question for you Mr. Covell: why do the screens change size?

awack · 12/08/2008, 06:02 PM

I kinda like the composite, shading is much smoother, colors used to soften outlines are less pixelated, the smoke coming off the evil looking dude on the left looks more convincing, as for Rockman, the characters are all flesh color, but then maybe they wanted the characters to be yellow.

Duo_R · 12/08/2008, 06:47 PM

I like the RGB better, look at the bad guys eyes in the first screenshot. Looks awesome in RGB! His eyes look more red VS brown in composite. And wait....the middle of his head is a red dot, u can't even see that in composite (it looks black)!!!

somery · 12/08/2008, 06:48 PM

LOL, Simpsons Mega Man characters.

Joe Redifer · 12/08/2008, 07:27 PM

Quote from: guyjinmore is not necessarily better. 'clearer' isn't either.

That was an awful analogy! 60i video is a downgrade to 24fps film (it doesn't actually add new frames, it just adds interlacing and 3:2 pulldown), just like composite is a downgrade from RGB. Using your logic, then there is no need to go beyond RF.

Anyway these screen grabs don't do true RGB justice. True RGB as displayed on a CRT will have scanlines that smooth out the "blockiness".

guyjin · 12/08/2008, 07:40 PM

but it was never meant to go beyond composite. the only reason it's not the same as film to video conversion is because most people don't notice 3:2 pulldown.

Joe Redifer · 12/08/2008, 07:44 PM

All I know is that I'd take this:

over this:

ANYDAY.

CrackTiger · 12/08/2008, 08:08 PM

But Joe, text in games was never meant to become readable.

Quote from: awack on 12/08/2008, 06:02 PMI kinda like the composite, shading is much smoother, colors used to soften outlines are less pixelated, the smoke coming off the evil looking dude on the left looks more convincing, as for Rockman, the characters are all flesh color, but then maybe they wanted the characters to be yellow.

With TG-16/PC Engine composite, the picture isn't just blurrier, it's washed out. If you like the way that blurriness blends pixels together, you can have the best of both by outputing an RGB mod through composite-

http://superpcenginegrafx.com/video666.html

Same with NES, Virtual Console NES games displayed through Wii composite look hella better color/contrast-wise than NES hardware composite.

As for Megaman's yellow skin color, that particular Famicom hardware just happens to display colors differently than other systems and emulation. It's not because of the RGB clarity-

guyjin · 12/08/2008, 08:10 PM

i suppose it looks better in that case, but as someone noted earlier, sometimes it makes boss robots look like Simpsons characters.

Joe Redifer · 12/08/2008, 08:14 PM

I don't really get the Simpsons reference.

EDIT: Oh.

CrackTiger · 12/08/2008, 08:14 PM

Quote from: guyjin on 12/08/2008, 08:10 PMi suppose it looks better in that case, but as someone noted earlier, sometimes it makes boss robots look like Simpsons characters.

See my just edited post.

guyjin · 12/08/2008, 08:18 PM

Tatsujin · 12/08/2008, 08:35 PM

wow, cool thread and so true. but the very bad thing about AV can not be even seen on those static pictures. it starts, when the picture starts to move on (scroll). then you confront with teh real problem of AV.

Joe Redifer · 12/08/2008, 08:55 PM

I know what you mean. Great examples are climbing up the rope at the beginning of Legendary Axe or the Ys 1&2 title screen (see below), Stage 2 in SMS Shinobi (where the purple stripes on the buildings seem to move with you) or just about EVERY NES game.

I present to you the Ys title screen as viewed in composite (slowed WAAAAY down, of course):

In RGB or s-video, it is one solid image, no shimmering.

guyjin · 12/08/2008, 08:57 PM

She's supposed to shimmer, she's that awesome!

Duo_R · 12/08/2008, 09:02 PM

her hair is completely still in component vid, and u can see every little detail (even her bewbies).....J/K

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 12/08/2008, 08:55 PMI know what you mean. Great examples are climbing up the rope at the beginning of Legendary Axe or the Ys 1&2 title screen (see below), Stage 2 in SMS Shinobi (where the purple stripes on the buildings seem to move with you) or just about EVERY NES game.

I present to you the Ys title screen as viewed in composite (slowed WAAAAY down, of course):

In RGB or s-video, it is one solid image, no shimmering.

Tatsujin · 12/08/2008, 09:22 PM

nice joe. that has to do with interferences which are produced by distorted informations due to the losses which AV bings with it. best example if you have a steady raster which looks quite good in static, but starts to produce any kind of patterns when it moves on. it also depends on the used resolution of how bad this effect will show up in the end.

awack · 12/08/2008, 10:46 PM

QuoteWith TG-16/PC Engine composite, the picture isn't just blurrier, it's washed out. If you like the way that blurriness blends pixels together, you can have the best of both by outputing an RGB mod through composite-

That RGB mod looks great, as for the washed out composite, i might be crazy but for some games i actually like the subtler more subdued colors, take Drac x for example, it goes from a Harmony of dissonance pallet when using something like RGB to a sotn pallet when using composite, of course Ive never seen RGB in person

, i,m guessing it looks similar to a emulator monitor combo.

TH0R · 12/20/2008, 12:13 AM

Quote from: ccovell on 12/08/2008, 12:18 PMYeah, I really ought to do some caps from the SMS and MD just to show how shitty composite is on those systems...

how do you get rgb out of these?

Duo_R · 12/20/2008, 12:25 AM

The RGB fairy. You have to take your old non RGB system, put it under your pillow and hope that you get the RGB goodness!

Serious note - u have to mod your console for the Duo. For MD RGB is available in the port and you just have to get scart cable or build from scratch (or build a custom AV port).

Quote from: TH0R on 12/20/2008, 12:13 AM
Quote from: ccovell on 12/08/2008, 12:18 PMYeah, I really ought to do some caps from the SMS and MD just to show how shitty composite is on those systems...
how do you get rgb out of these?

ccovell · 12/20/2008, 11:31 AM

OK, here are a few more, from the MD and SMS:

Composite --> RGB

These are all 256 pixel-wide games. I'll take some 320-wide ones from the MD later. Plus, explain the tech stuff.

guyjin · 12/20/2008, 01:21 PM

QuoteThese are all 256 pixel-wide games.

so why do the composite shots look bigger?

Digi.k · 12/20/2008, 01:29 PM

I did some pics of this with the Sega saturn too.

composite
/composIMG_0284.jpg

RGB
/scartIMG_0285.jpg

termis · 12/21/2008, 01:02 AM

RGB shots look awesome. (Though with the RGB goodness, it definitely helps to have the scanlines in there!)

RaZiel · 12/22/2008, 10:42 AM

Quote from: guest on 12/08/2008, 08:08 PMWith TG-16/PC Engine composite, the picture isn't just blurrier, it's washed out. If you like the way that blurriness blends pixels together, you can have the best of both by outputing an RGB mod through composite

So once you do a RGB mod the composite video will get better or are you saying going from say a scart 2 composite adapter.

Duo_R · 12/22/2008, 02:19 PM

If I understand he is taking svideo and using adapter to composite although I think that is pointless.

CrackTiger · 12/28/2008, 06:49 PM

Quote from: Duo_R on 12/22/2008, 02:19 PMIf I understand he is taking svideo and using adapter to composite although I think that is pointless.

Other than demonstrating that the S-Video mod isn't displaying an unnatural image, it's a huge improvement in accurately displaying the true colors of the TG-/PCE for all those (many more than I would've guessed) people who strongly believe that pre-32-bit games should only be played with composite. Even more so with the Genesis, anyone who insists on only playing under composite should still get some sort of RGB conversion/mod or XMD-3 or whatever and then hook it up to your TV via composite.

ccovell · 08/25/2010, 10:16 AM

A long-delayed update: I've made a new page combining these screencaps and a few more for an easier, clearer comparison. I also explain how I captured the RGB images. See the page below:

https://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/rgb_compare.html

Mathius · 08/26/2010, 01:14 AM

Chris, I wish you would set up a workshop for idiots like myself. I understand that RBG > S-Video > Composite, but that's about it. What are scanlines? Someone said that the port on a Genesis can technically display RGB (or scart?). Is this true, and what would I need to make that happen?

Joe Redifer · 08/26/2010, 02:31 AM

Do I spy Midnight Resistance? That is indeed a great game to make a comparison with, especially the red text over the weapons. Blue's Journey is also another good choice.

EDIT: I'm not sure what you mean by the Neo-Geo's image being too wide. I have never experienced this on any TV I have played it on.

Tatsujin · 08/26/2010, 02:41 AM

Quote from: Mathius on 08/26/2010, 01:14 AMChris, I wish you would set up a workshop for idiots like myself. I understand that RBG > S-Video > Composite, but that's about it. What are scanlines? Someone said that the port on a Genesis can technically display RGB (or scart?). Is this true, and what would I need to make that happen?

1. scanlines are the horizontal lines produced by a CRT (cathod ray tube) TV. they give you the typical oldskool game feeling. nowadays TVS do not use horizontal lines anymore, they are controlled by a dot-matrix system, therefore you will not have scanlines anymore, unless you use a scanline re-producing device between your TV and the game machine.

2. the Genesis video-port provides RGB ex-works. so you need the right cable as well a RGB-capable low-res TV/monitor.

Mathius · 08/26/2010, 12:20 PM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 08/26/2010, 02:41 AM
Quote from: Mathius on 08/26/2010, 01:14 AMChris, I wish you would set up a workshop for idiots like myself. I understand that RBG > S-Video > Composite, but that's about it. What are scanlines? Someone said that the port on a Genesis can technically display RGB (or scart?). Is this true, and what would I need to make that happen?
1. scanlines are the horizontal lines produced by a CRT (cathod ray tube) TV. they give you the typical oldskool game feeling. nowadays TVS do not use horizontal lines anymore, they are controlled by a dot-matrix system, therefore you will not have scanlines anymore, unless you use a scanline re-producing device between your TV and the game machine.

2. the Genesis video-port provides RGB ex-works. so you need the right cable as well a RGB-capable low-res TV/monitor.

Thanks for the answers, Tats! I have a low-res RGB capable TV, I think. That's just having component jacks right? As for the cable, is it just a cable with one end being a Genesis type video connector, and the other RGB component?

NecroPhile · 08/26/2010, 12:32 PM

Quote from: Mathius on 08/26/2010, 12:20 PMI have a low-res RGB capable TV, I think. That's just having component jacks right? As for the cable, is it just a cable with one end being a Genesis type video connector, and the other RGB component?

No on both counts. Some goon over at sega-16 wrote a nice article that explains it rather well.

Mathius · 08/26/2010, 12:55 PM

Quote from: guest on 08/26/2010, 12:32 PM
Quote from: Mathius on 08/26/2010, 12:20 PMI have a low-res RGB capable TV, I think. That's just having component jacks right? As for the cable, is it just a cable with one end being a Genesis type video connector, and the other RGB component?
No on both counts. Some goon over at sega-16 wrote a nice article that explains it rather well.

Wow, thanks NecroPhile. That was really helpful!

ccovell · 08/26/2010, 06:16 PM

A word to the wise: RGB =/= "component" video. They're terms for two different video formats.

(ah, I wrote the same thing here: https://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/index.html )

Joe Redifer · 08/27/2010, 01:58 AM

In a nutshell: RGB is full bandwidth color. Component uses evil trickery to get similar image quality with less bandwidth.

Quote

EDIT: I explained how Component works in my Sega-16 article linked to above. Also please note that when I wrote that article, I was using a kind of crappy, small TV so the differences in the pictures aren't as pronounced as they really are on a decent TV (which I now have).

Mathius · 08/28/2010, 01:48 AM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 08/27/2010, 01:58 AMIn a nutshell: RGB is full bandwidth color. Component uses evil trickery to get similar image quality with less bandwidth.

EDIT: I explained how Component works in my Sega-16 article linked to above. Also please note that when I wrote that article, I was using a kind of crappy, small TV so the differences in the pictures aren't as pronounced as they really are on a decent TV (which I now have).

That's a really great article, Joe. I will study it more thoroughly on my days off coming up, along with trying to figure out what's up with my joysticks on my Super Contra arcade.

Vecanti · 09/14/2010, 11:11 PM

Quote from: Digi.k on 12/20/2008, 01:29 PMI did some pics of this with the Sega saturn too.

composite
/composIMG_0284.jpg

RGB
/scartIMG_0285.jpg

I don't know how people can think the RGB version of these two pictures looks 'better'. Certainly you can see the pixels and it is less blurry.

But look at those two pictures. The composite one looks like a painting to me. It looks beautiful for a video game! That dark plant stock in the foreground on the right really give the picture depth. Gorgeous!

The RGB version looks nothing like a painting, but a just a lo-res pixely graphic. The whole thing just looks flat and you get none of the depth you do in the composite one. What I see in RGB is lo-res and clunky, and a 'not real' feeling. I know this all subjective, but I'd rather play the top one.

I remember when I got an RGB monitor for my Amiga 1000. I had been using a TV for a long time. I mostly played games on it and Flight Simulator was almost unplayable on the TV because I couldn't read what the text was for all the airplane controls. I got that RGB monitor and the text looked AWESOME in RGB, crystal clear and I finally could really play flight sim. All my other games however sort of lost their charm/beauty. They looked so bad in RGB. For a long time I left the TV hooked up for games and used the RGB monitor for regular computer stuff.

Mathius · 09/14/2010, 11:55 PM

I just got Astal last week along with the mentioned Sexy Parodius. The game is definitely gorgeous! I can't speak for the RGB though.

ccovell · 09/15/2010, 08:07 AM

Quote from: GobanToba on 09/14/2010, 11:11 PMI don't know how people can think the RGB version of these two pictures looks 'better'... The composite one looks like a painting to me. It looks beautiful for a video game!

There are always those that see the clearer reality but still choose to regress to the more romantic, blurred one. See Brazil, or the cave allegory, et cetera.

Mathius · 09/15/2010, 11:19 AM

Quote from: ccovell on 09/15/2010, 08:07 AM
Quote from: GobanToba on 09/14/2010, 11:11 PMI don't know how people can think the RGB version of these two pictures looks 'better'... The composite one looks like a painting to me. It looks beautiful for a video game!
There are always those that see the clearer reality but still choose to regress to the more romantic, blurred one. See Brazil, or the cave allegory, et cetera.

Heh, thanks for the philosophy lesson Chris.

Vecanti · 09/15/2010, 11:28 AM

Quote from: ccovell on 09/15/2010, 08:07 AM
Quote from: GobanToba on 09/14/2010, 11:11 PMI don't know how people can think the RGB version of these two pictures looks 'better'... The composite one looks like a painting to me. It looks beautiful for a video game!
There are always those that see the clearer reality but still choose to regress to the more romantic, blurred one. See Brazil, or the cave allegory, et cetera.

Interesting. I do love Brazil. Robert De Niro's character is awesome.