FACT: There is no God.

[rag-time4]

this is a stupid thread, I kinda regret suggesting a "war room" thread now.

FACT: This thread is a disaster.

I like it!

It's very healthy and quite cathartic to have these sort of free discussions. If I find myself getting upset or offended (which I don't) I would just not participate... I would instruct anybody else to freely do the same.

I think anyone who is upset or offended should just try to derail this thread completely!!

[quoth09]

Wow, this topic jumped pages quick. I didn't even get to see it before it has already hit here. I don't even have to read the rest of the thread, because it is always the same on these things.

It doesn't matter if anything or anyone exists, deity or otherwise. If this is all real (and by that I mean life in general), think about everything that has occurred related to religion in any form over the whole time line of the world. Deaths and everything else you can think of, all due to everyone's beliefs (aka opinions) about what they think is a higher power and what compels them to do such actions. It doesn't matter what language, country, race or any of that nonsense. It's all the same.

This is my opinion and all I will say about it, so you can take it or leave it how you choose, but plainly put:

Religion in general pushes the world back as a whole, keeping it from advancing far beyond what any of us could ever imagine. Religion is nothing but a fear tactic in all ways, shapes and form. The only people that believe in such nonsense are the ones that are either brainwashed, are insecure in themselves that they feel the need to believe in something else besides themselves, or feel at ease thinking there is something there more than themselves, making their lives easier to live (aka cop out for the way life itself being the way it is).

The same people that believe otherwise, are the same ones that dispute scientific FACTS about anything in general, and oppose research.

---

On a side note, all of these christian fuck wits and their bullshit about Laminin can fuck off. They all wanna oppose scientific fact until something comes along that benefits them and their belief. If you aren't familiar with what Laminin is, do a search on Google for the wiki page. Basically put it is a protein molecule that is vital to making sure overall body structures hold together. It's essentially the protein molecule that holds us all together, forming the bonds between cells. Without it we would fall apart, and be a big pile of mush and bones.
So you are probably saying, what is the big deal, and what does this have to do with religion or anything in general?
Laminin is in the shape of a lower case 't' or a crucifix, but I have seen real photos of it, and it looks more like a + sign to me.
Basically all of these christian idiots, as usual, all jumped on the bandwagon saying this was a sign from their 'god'. Then you have the same people turning around saying, no we don't worship cross shaped objects, it's just uplifting and encouraging.  
They use diagrams that make it look like a cross, and start in with all this bullshit about how this is proof that their 'god' exists.
And that is EXACTLY what it is: BULLSHIT.
Just like seeing an image of the catholic mother mary on a piece of toast.

[Joe Redifer]

But if others [pray], then why criticize it?

Because this is the Fighting Street forum.  Argument is not just encouraged here, it is mandatory!

[rag-time4]

But if others [pray], then why criticize it?

Because this is the Fighting Street forum.  Argument is not just encouraged here, it is mandatory!

I agree!

[Keranu]

But if others [pray], then why criticize it?

Because this is the Fighting Street forum.  Argument is not just encouraged here, it is mandatory!

Good point.

[guyjin]

I love having mature interfaith (and inter-lack-of-faith?) dialogues too. I just say a thread like this is a disaster because there are so many different opinions flinging food at each other that it's hard to keep up with everything.

You're just jealous that my thread is longer than yours 

But if others [pray], then why criticize it?

Because sometimes they do that instead of what they ought to be doing. Ferinstance:
http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSTRE52N63B20090325

[albinoMithos]

There may not be a god but there is a great Goddess.  All glory to Lolth, the great Demon Queen of the Spiders!!!!!

Dragonlance was great, wunnit? but they had to go and fuck it up...

Agreed.

[Zeon]

Religion in general pushes the world back as a whole, keeping it from advancing far beyond what any of us could ever imagine. Religion is nothing but a fear tactic in all ways, shapes and form.

I agree, religion is often this way. Faith, on the other hand is a completely different thing altogether. The problem is people often associate the two as one. "Religion" is basically the pointless traditions and the rigid rules, that are all entirely human made and not divinely inspired. The bible actually warns against religion. If you do believe the bible and Jesus teachings you will see that more than anything it is a guidebook, laying out ways we should live. It teaches about selflessness, humility, and generally things that if every human followed, would help to further advance the human race not be a detriment. The problem arises when people misinterpret the bibles teachings, twist and convolute them, and take them out of context.

The only people that believe in such nonsense are the ones that are either brainwashed, are insecure in themselves that they feel the need to believe in something else besides themselves, or feel at ease thinking there is something there more than themselves, making their lives easier to live (aka cop out for the way life itself being the way it is).

There are many so called "Christians" who are brainwashed, i agree. They simply follow what others have told them/forced upon them, and done nothing to look into it any further. Often they have never read any of the bible, they hear others tell them what the bible says instead, and follow these other people's teachings. Others simply do not have a good enough understanding of Christianity and let their passion get the best of them. These people often think they are doing things in the name of God, yet if any of them sat down and did some more research, they would find that they weren't following the bibles teachings at all.

Christianity is not about sitting back and let god take care of everything, or being completely helpless. This is a very complex and tricky subject to explain, but if you dig deep it becomes very clear. There is this one verse in the bible where Jesus walks on water during a storm from a boat. He then and asks one of his disciples to do the same (I think it may have been Peter, can't remember). The disciple does ask Jesus asks and before long starts to drown. Jesus grabs him, and pulls him back to the boat upon which he basically says to him: It was not me you lacked faith in. You had complete faith I could walk on the water, it was you that you lacked faith in. You doubted yourself, and in doing so you doubted me. Elsewhere in the bible is becomes apparent that not only do we need god, but he needs us. It sounds odd but it's in there. So it's not about just sitting back and letting god do his thing and being completely free from responsibility. A true Christian that follows Jesus teachings knows that they can believe in God and in themselves at the same time. Also nothing about believing in a god either actually makes life seem or be any easier.

I think the problem here, is that there are many "Christians" or people who purport to be, who either don't know and don't follow half or more of the teachings of the bible, or people who think they are doing the right thing but are way off the mark. There are also people who are "Christians" for the wrong reasons mentioned, brainwashing and insecurity. Unfortunately these people give Christianity a bad rep, and given how vocal some can be and how much more the bad stands out than the good, it is a very big problem.

On a side note, all of these christian fuck wits and their bullshit about Laminin can fuck off. They all wanna oppose scientific fact until something comes along that benefits them and their belief. If you aren't familiar with what Laminin is, do a search on Google for the wiki page. Basically put it is a protein molecule that is vital to making sure overall body structures hold together. It's essentially the protein molecule that holds us all together, forming the bonds between cells. Without it we would fall apart, and be a big pile of mush and bones.
So you are probably saying, what is the big deal, and what does this have to do with religion or anything in general?
Laminin is in the shape of a lower case 't' or a crucifix, but I have seen real photos of it, and it looks more like a + sign to me.
Basically all of these christian idiots, as usual, all jumped on the bandwagon saying this was a sign from their 'god'. Then you have the same people turning around saying, no we don't worship cross shaped objects, it's just uplifting and encouraging. 
They use diagrams that make it look like a cross, and start in with all this bullshit about how this is proof that their 'god' exists.
And that is EXACTLY what it is: BULLSHIT.
Just like seeing an image of the catholic mother mary on a piece of toast.

Oh man this is a perfect example of what I am talking about. For starters, trying to prove the existence of god goes COMPLETELY against what the bible teaches! If these people bothered to truly read the bible and understood what it says they would not be doing stuff like this. Also many of said people are using said tactics for attention, fame, money, etc. and the bible specifically warns against people such as this.

The problem with trying to prove god exists is that it clashes with the whole idea of free will of which Christians believe god gave humans. In creating us God gave us free will, he wants us to come to him and seek him from our own free will, not because he says so or has control over us. What good would we be to god if we were simply puppets, or robots to his every command? It is meaningless to him. God has power to do anything he wants; if god wanted he could come before us and proclaim that he is God, and that all must follow him. However, what would he need slaves or puppets for? In giving us free will it means more to him. People who come to him do so of their very own free will, against high opposition and overwhelming odds. This is like having a wife or husband chose to be with you because they care for and love you, vs having a robot that has no attachment or sense of caring for you be with you because it has no other choice. For this reason there will never be proof that God exists, not until the end anyways. Christians who seek to prove God exists are wasting their time that could better used for doing things God actually wants his disciples to be doing.

Finally this goes without saying, but humans are not perfect, and being Christian doesn't make you any better or any more perfect than anyone else.  Christians are human too, we don't go through some magical transformation process that makes us not sin anymore. We try our best to live as God and Jesus teaches us, however we can and do often fall short. However look before you leap and don't believe everything these "Christians" are saying or that they are truly following God's word at all.

[Sparky]

To me, religion usually seems to be a way for people to feel comfortable in their existence.  They cannot accept the fact that there is no afterlife.  Religion is a means of living forever, so to speak.  The thought of death frightens people to no end since they are so primitive.  There's gotta be something after death, right?  There's just gotta!!!

i will take that... and count me as believing in god.

I want to believe in something more out there, whatever, there is no harm in it, i do not go to church and i do not consider my self a very religious man but my little girl says her prays each night and in my own way i give thanks to a higher being (and it is not when i am yelling "OH GOD" when i am having sex ) living my life in this screwed up world at times with a belief in a god is just fine by me.

I am not brainwashed or naive or fucked a little in the head ( maybe a little  ) believing in a god you either do or you dont, does not have to be complicated... believe what you want, your life
Anyway why not believe, in the end if there is or is not i am covered I will wave Joe as you are falling into hell 

[Ceti Alpha]

I don't believe in God, because I have seen no evidence to prove its existence. I don't believe aliens have visited our planet on spaceships and there's technically more (bad) evidence to prove UFOs are, in fact, aliens spacecraft. I wouldn't be very consistent with my logic if I made an exception with God.

Now, if there's some sort of "higher intelligence", who cares? That only begs the question: "Who created that being?" Maybe our universe is the result of a high school student's science project. It makes no difference. We are here because we are here. Our universe is amazing and it obviously "peoples" as part of its nature.

Furthermore, atheists are not dogmatic. Atheists don't believe in their disbelief. We don't have a Ten Commandments of Disbelief. Most atheists dislike even calling themselves "atheists" - How can you label yourself for something you scarcely even think about?

Even if "God" came to Earth to judge us, I would be scared shitless. But I still wouldn't consider this being "God". It would just be some nutcase super alien with a serious ego problem.

The whole idea of creationism and intelligent design is full of holes. The creationist's main argument for intelligent design is that the universe and biology is too complex to just be random chance. That's bologna. Take a mouse trap. By this logic, if you remove a piece of the mouse trap it becomes useless. Not true. You could use it as a tie clip, or a paper clip. The universe works the way it works because that's the way it is. Maybe in other universes things work completely different.

I accept that people believe in God and that's fine. There's nothing I can do about it. However, I don't see how believing in God gives anyone answers, because it answers nothing.

[nectarsis]

I don't believe in God, because I have seen no evidence to prove its existence. I don't believe aliens have visited our planet on spaceships and there's technically more (bad) evidence to prove UFOs are, in fact, aliens spacecraft. I wouldn't be very consistent with my logic if I made an exception with God.

Now, if there's some sort of "higher intelligence", who cares? That only begs the question: "Who created that being?" Maybe our universe is the result of a high school student's science project. It makes no difference. We are here because we are here. Our universe is amazing and it obviously "peoples" as part of its nature.

Furthermore, atheists are not dogmatic. Atheists don't believe in their disbelief. We don't have a Ten Commandments of Disbelief. Most atheists dislike even calling themselves "atheists" - How can you label yourself for something you scarcely even think about?

Even if "God" came to Earth to judge us, I would be scared shitless. But I still wouldn't consider this being "God". It would just be some nutcase super alien with a serious ego problem.

The whole idea of creationism and intelligent design is full of holes. The creationist's main argument for intelligent design is that the universe and biology is too complex to just be random chance. That's bologna. Take a MOOSE trap. By this logic, if you remove a piece of the MOOSE trap it becomes useless. Not true. You could use it as a tie clip, or a paper clip. The universe works the way it works because that's the way it is. Maybe in other universes things work completely different.

I accept that people believe in God and that's fine. There's nothing I can do about it. However, I don't see how believing in God gives anyone answers, because it answers nothing.

fixed

[Ceti Alpha]

I don't believe in God, because I have seen no evidence to prove its existence. I don't believe aliens have visited our planet on spaceships and there's technically more (bad) evidence to prove UFOs are, in fact, aliens spacecraft. I wouldn't be very consistent with my logic if I made an exception with God.

Now, if there's some sort of "higher intelligence", who cares? That only begs the question: "Who created that being?" Maybe our universe is the result of a high school student's science project. It makes no difference. We are here because we are here. Our universe is amazing and it obviously "peoples" as part of its nature.

Furthermore, atheists are not dogmatic. Atheists don't believe in their disbelief. We don't have a Ten Commandments of Disbelief. Most atheists dislike even calling themselves "atheists" - How can you label yourself for something you scarcely even think about?

Even if "God" came to Earth to judge us, I would be scared shitless. But I still wouldn't consider this being "God". It would just be some nutcase super alien with a serious ego problem.

The whole idea of creationism and intelligent design is full of holes. The creationist's main argument for intelligent design is that the universe and biology is too complex to just be random chance. That's bologna. Take a MOOSE trap. By this logic, if you remove a piece of the MOOSE trap it becomes useless. Not true. You could use it as a tie clip, or a paper clip. The universe works the way it works because that's the way it is. Maybe in other universes things work completely different.

I accept that people believe in God and that's fine. There's nothing I can do about it. However, I don't see how believing in God gives anyone answers, because it answers nothing.

fixed

 

That would be one giant tie clip. lol Maybe I'd give it to God as a gift. I'm sure his ties get all greasy and stained from creating nebulae and black holes.

[TheMilford]

Furthermore, atheists are not dogmatic. Atheists don't believe in their disbelief. We don't have a Ten Commandments of Disbelief. Most atheists dislike even calling themselves "atheists" - How can you label yourself for something you scarcely even think about?

You make my point better for me. Thankee Sai!

[NecroPhile]

You don't believe in God?  Good for you, I don't give a fuck.
You do believe in God?  Good for you, I don't give a fuck.

It always amuses me to see people get so cranked up because others are 'wasting' their time on religion, as if it somehow affects them personally.  It's as silly as the religious trying to save everyone's soul.  It's my time and my soul, so why don't y'all just fuck off?

If there were a god, women wouldn't be so crazy. But I'd be crazy too if I bled where I pee once a month.

This doesn't disprove God, but rather proves that He has a sense of humor. 

I accept that people believe in God and that's fine. There's nothing I can do about it. However, I don't see how believing in God gives anyone answers, because it answers nothing.

Does not believing in God give answers?  For many people, prayer and worship has made them feel better by assuaging their fears and giving answers to unknowable questions.  Whether or not said answers are correct is irrelevant, as it's made 'em happy.

[TheMilford]

It always amuses me to see people get so cranked up because others are 'wasting' their time on religion, as if it somehow affects them personally. 

It's not the wasting of time that burns me up. It the backing of the right-wingers, the gutting of our constitution, the judgment of gays, single moms, freaks, artists, science, logic, etc. And unfortunately they vote, they organize and the influence/brainwash others.

They are logic-less and full of poisonous, contagious fear.

We're not talking about backroom perverts or benign hobbyists here... these "christians" actually have a hand in shaping our nation's policies.

That is what I rail against. Not the idea of god itself but the fear and carelessness it has promoted.

[guyjin]

It always amuses me to see people get so cranked up because others are 'wasting' their time on religion, as if it somehow affects them personally.

Doesn't it? People injure and kill themselves and others because they think their god told them to.

Does not believing in God give answers?

No, but it doesn't pretend to. 

For many people, prayer and worship has made them feel better by assuaging their fears and giving answers to unknowable questions.  Whether or not said answers are correct is irrelevant, as it's made 'em happy.

It would make me immensely happy if Transformers were real. (the G1 ones, not the crappy movie ones.) But they aren't. People would, rightly, reject me if I ran around saying Optimus Prime has come to earth to save us from the evil Decepticons. because it's nonsense. The only difference between that nonsense and any religion you care to name is that religions are more popular.

[Ceti Alpha]

Megatron would kick Jesus' ass.

You don't believe in God?  Good for you, I don't give a fuck.
You do believe in God?  Good for you, I don't give a fuck.

It always amuses me to see people get so cranked up because others are 'wasting' their time on religion, as if it somehow affects them personally.  It's as silly as the religious trying to save everyone's soul.  It's my time and my soul, so why don't y'all just fuck off?

If there were a god, women wouldn't be so crazy. But I'd be crazy too if I bled where I pee once a month.

This doesn't disprove God, but rather proves that He has a sense of humor. 

I accept that people believe in God and that's fine. There's nothing I can do about it. However, I don't see how believing in God gives anyone answers, because it answers nothing.

Does not believing in God give answers?  For many people, prayer and worship has made them feel better by assuaging their fears and giving answers to unknowable questions.  Whether or not said answers are correct is irrelevant, as it's made 'em happy.

Well, unfortunately, people's belief in God does affect me and others personally - abortion laws, war, what is taught in classrooms, etc... The reason people get cranked up is because old archaic beliefs are actually affecting how we live. It's absurd that whether or not evolution should be taught in schools is still being debated in certain regions. Now, if someone believes in God and keeps it to themselves, that's fine. Whatever floats your boat. Organized religion, however, is not so quiet with its beliefs.

[Zeon]

You don't believe in God?  Good for you, I don't give a fuck.
You do believe in God?  Good for you, I don't give a fuck.

It always amuses me to see people get so cranked up because others are 'wasting' their time on religion, as if it somehow affects them personally.  It's as silly as the religious trying to save everyone's soul.  It's my time and my soul, so why don't y'all just fuck off?

I believe in at least informing people of the word and what I believe. If they decide to take it to heart all the better, If they want me to fuck off, very well then, no point in discussing it any further, I leave them alone. So many Christians don't understand this concept, that even the bible very clearly lays out. Plant the seed and leave it at that, if it grows it grows, and if it doesn't, oh well at least you made an effort.

[Joe Redifer]

God enjoys sacrifices.  He love's 'em to death.  The more we kill, the happier he is.  That is why I dedicate every abortion to Him.  Happiest god EVAR!

[NecroPhile]

I see little harm in following a religion (faithfully anyway - most of the actions being bemoaned are entirely contrary to Christian teachings), and find it utterly goofy to blame all of society's ills on religions; as Keranu noted, we're all a bunch of greedy fucks who'll do shitty things to each other to get what we want.  Sure, many evils have been committed in the name of religion, but a lot more good has come from it - most philanthropic endeavors are faith based, some people likely would've been 'bad' if not for a fear of God, and many people find solace in prayer and worship, thus having their lives enriched.  

It's not the wasting of time that burns me up. It the backing of the right-wingers, the gutting of our constitution, the judgment of gays, single moms, freaks, artists, science, logic, etc. And unfortunately they vote, they organize and the influence/brainwash others.

They are logic-less and full of poisonous, contagious fear.

We're not talking about backroom perverts or benign hobbyists here... these "christians" actually have a hand in shaping our nation's policies.

That is what I rail against. Not the idea of god itself but the fear and carelessness it has promoted.

So the religious fanatics and their crazy antics have rendered all religion horribly dangerous.  Thank God there aren't any atheists judging others, working in the government and other places of power, or committing evil deeds.  

Doesn't it? People injure and kill themselves and others because they think their god told them to.

And there are atheists who've killed themselves or others for various reasons, so what's your point?  There's no direct link between belonging to a religion and being a dangerous nutter, so it's no less valid for me to argue that it's dangerous to not believe in God (and that's just plain dumb).

It would make me immensely happy if Transformers were real. (the G1 ones, not the crappy movie ones.) But they aren't. People would, rightly, reject me if I ran around saying Optimus Prime has come to earth to save us from the evil Decepticons. because it's nonsense. The only difference between that nonsense and any religion you care to name is that religions are more popular.

No argument here, though you'd only be laughed at and pitied; I doubt people would scorn you and cry that you're ruining everything and causing all the world's ills.

Well, unfortunately, people's belief in God does affect me and others personally - abortion laws, war, what is taught in classrooms, etc... The reason people get cranked up is because old archaic beliefs are actually affecting how we live. It's absurd that whether or not evolution should be taught in schools is still being debated in certain regions. Now, if someone believes in God and keeps it to themselves, that's fine. Whatever floats your boat. Organized religion, however, is not so quiet with its beliefs.

So all religious people are pro-life and all atheists are pro-choice (and vice versa)?  All wars are fought over religion and nothing else?  Without religion, we'd all live in a happy fairytale land with gumdrops, kitties, and free weed, eh?  At least you have the absurd part correct.

People press their personal agendas regardless of whether or not they is faith based.  More often than not, they are in the pursuit of power, not Jesus.

I believe in at least informing people of the word and what I believe. If they decide to take it to heart all the better, If they want me to fuck off, very well then, no point in discussing it any further, I leave them alone. So many Christians don't understand this concept, that even the bible very clearly lays out. Plant the seed and leave it at that, if it grows it grows, and if it doesn't, oh well at least you made an effort.

Go ahead and spread the word of God, but don't waste your time preaching it to the majority of people in the US.  This is a predominantly Christian nation, so we've already heard it and the seed's already been planted.

[Ceti Alpha]

Well, unfortunately, people's belief in God does affect me and others personally - abortion laws, war, what is taught in classrooms, etc... The reason people get cranked up is because old archaic beliefs are actually affecting how we live. It's absurd that whether or not evolution should be taught in schools is still being debated in certain regions. Now, if someone believes in God and keeps it to themselves, that's fine. Whatever floats your boat. Organized religion, however, is not so quiet with its beliefs.

So all religious people are pro-life and all atheists are pro-choice (and vice versa)?  All wars are fought over religion and nothing else?  Without religion, we'd all live in a happy fairytale land with gumdrops, kitties, and free weed, eh?  At least you have the absurd part correct.

People press their personal agendas regardless of whether or not they is faith based.  More often than not, they are in the pursuit of power, not Jesus.

I certainly don't believe in a possible utopia, nor that religion is solely responsible for stopping us from achieving it. I would just prefer our laws and governance to be free of any influence from superstitious believes that have no real bearing on reality. Clearly that's what the forefathers of the United States intended when they tried to separate Church and State. People will always try and push their own agenda, but at least let those agendas be based on reality. I'm not anti-religion. I don't care if someone believes that the Moon is actually an egg carrying the creator of the Universe, which will hatch when Mars crosses between the Earth and the Sun during the Solar System's crossing of the galactic plane. That's fantastic, but I certainly don't want people's taxes being spent on Moon warming generators to keep the creator safe until its rebirth.

[guyjin]

[Joe Redifer]

That video is awesome!  But it clearly won't have an effect on the close-minded.

[Zeon]

Lol at that video. For someone so open minded the person in that video likes to contradict himself. He makes an argument that people who believe in supernatural powers make many assumptions about those who say they don't believe in something. Such as "I don't believe" = "It is not true". This in of itself is an assumption and over generalization and I find it quite humorous.

I believe everything has a legitimate explanation, whether or not we at any given point understand the reason things happen. However I also believe that through us god has a hand in things. I don't discredit science, nor do I think it is "devils work" or some such nonsense, in fact I embrace science. I don't think I've ever expected anyone to take my word for truth when I have nothing to back up my claims other than I say so. In fact I believe in Jesus, God, and spirituality as well as breakthroughs in science and technology and I entertain new ideas. Yes he does acknowledge people like me who have beliefs and accept science. But is a very short blurb near the end, and the focus quickly goes back to attacking "close minded zealots" It's like he mentions that to cover his ass, but he doesn't sound too convinced that such people exist or at least he doesn't seem to care that they exist. Yes I made an assumption, but he does too.

In fact I love how all his examples are exaggerated  extremes of a situation. I'm not saying their aren't people or situations out there like in the examples he provides, but there certainly most don't come near to those extremes. The example about a stranger who claims to have a magical dust that can heal your wounded friend is a prime example of this as it has almost no basis in reality. Just about anyone can make their argument sound much more convincing when you use crazy fanciful stories such as those. At the very least it cracked me up. In all honesty though I don't discredit the existence of such people, however they are more rare extremes.

Also, his tone and word choice come off as an attack to those who hold spiritual beliefs, such as "...believing in more paranormal things than the next person, isn't a sign of open mindness, but it can be a sign of being more gullible" Yeah you sure sound REAL open minded their pal   

"...people who believe being easily persuaded is a virtue"

........

Ok you lost me their pal. Never in my life have I come across anyone who made such a claim. Where do you meet such fanciful people? Do you live in a place where people migrated there straight from opposite land? Seriously did this guy even listen to the stuff he says?

Since when is having some sort of spiritual beliefs posing a risk? Sure you can't prove any of it, but a risk? Where did he pull that one from? Cause you know believing in reincarnation or a god or whatever is so very dangerous to you health and well being.

Finally I disagree on his definition of open mindedness. It is the willingness to listen to others ideas whether you choose to accept them of not. Not the willingness to listen to new ideas. By saying new ideas he seems to propose that old ideas are not worth considering or listening to. He himself basically said that not all new ideas are necessarily good or correct ideas. After listening and through evaluation of his arguments I believe this is one of those "Rubbish" viewpoints. Not because I am close minded, but because he doesn't provide a very compelling argument with much if any hard evidence to support it. Which is ironically something he reiterates time and time again is VERY important to back up a claim, of which he makes many, but does not provide any himself. In fact it seems to be nothing more than a mere attack to those that oppose his viewpoints.

Way to follow what you preach man. 

[termis]

Can all atheists who try to use science to somehow "prove" atheism take this part to heart?



And if you haven't figured it out by now, no, I'm not religious at all, I simply don't give a rat's ass about any religion.  But what bugs me is that atheists go on an on and on about how religion is holding science down and blah blah blah, and how religion is evil and blah blah blah, but I don't give a shit about that -- PROVE your statement. 

It's the exact same thing I ask to religious, or non-religious folks.

Atheists simply haven't explained or proved jack shit about non-existence of god to people like me, agnostics.

[albinoMithos]

......the very fact that you can deny the existence of a god proves that said god exists.  Now whether or not you worship this god is up to you.....'nuff said.

[esteban]

Sugarcandy Mountain, here we come!

[Joe Redifer]

the very fact that you can deny the existence of a god proves that said god exists.

Mithos, you are a fucking retard.  You seriously deserve AIDS and Ihope your dad rapes you in the anus again and gives you his AIDS.  Also, your mom is a whore and you are fucking ugly as all hell.  I hope you die.  Soon.  Please commit suicide.

[Ceti Alpha]

......the very fact that you can deny the existence of a god proves that said god exists.  Now whether or not you worship this god is up to you.....'nuff said.

OK, prove to me that the Moon isn't actually an egg that is holding Jesus. You can't? Then it's true.

[albinoMithos]

......the very fact that you can deny the existence of a god proves that said god exists.  Now whether or not you worship this god is up to you.....'nuff said.

OK, prove to me that the Moon isn't actually an egg that is holding Jesus. You can't? Then it's true.

I'm not.  I'm saying that even if you don't believe there's a supernatural being in the world that does all the things people say it does the very fact that you all are sitting down and arguing about it means it exists.  I mean even if it's fictional he/she/it now exists even if it's in the same capacity that bonk, star trek, etc. exists. Like I said before you can worship it or not, but if it didn't exist in some way shape or form you wouldn't be arguing about it.

[OldRover]

That which cannot be proven also should never be assumed. People should not assume God exists just because it has never been proven that God doesn't exist. However, there are many examples throughout history that definitively prove that God could not possibly exist, not the least of which being the existence of cultures worshiping multiple deities, including ones perceived as female. All holy books were written by humans and are so full of contradictions and blatant inaccuracies that it's incomprehensible why people still even follow deity-based religions in this enlightened age.

It's quite simple, really, and anyone who's played Exile should understand how deities came to be in the first place...man could not explain his surroundings and how they worked, so he invented stories to "explain" things. Over time, stories turned to law, which turned into control over other humans. This control has passed from generation to generation, century after century...it's like a plague that is passed from mother to child.

Mithos, your argument is circular and nonsensical. No one has ever seen the Loch-Ness Monster, yet its existence is still debated and argued. By your logic, it must exist because people talk about it. And what about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? How much argument and debate has that sparked in certain areas of the USA? So it must exist too, right? By your logic, it does.

[albinoMithos]

Mithos, your argument is circular and nonsensical. No one has ever seen the Loch-Ness Monster, yet its existence is still debated and argued. By your logic, it must exist because people talk about it. And what about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? How much argument and debate has that sparked in certain areas of the USA? So it must exist too, right? By your logic, it does.

You half-way understand my argument.  I am in no way saying that they're real.  I'm saying gods exist in the same way the Loch-Ness monster or even the Flying Spaghetti monster exist.  They're fiction yes, but someone brought them into existence by making them.  My logic is simple, people talk about them because they made them up at one point or another.  Some people believe evidence exists to prove it's real and others think it's bullshit.  It's the same way Superman exists or hell it's even the same way M'ldor V. Fakeness exists.  I just made them myself.  Now how they exist is up to you.  I see them as works of fiction. But I see them as existing in the sense that fictional characters do.  As I've said before you can worship them or you can't.  You're alive and have your own free will so do so.  Some people think gods are made up while some think they're able to interact with the world we're in.  All I'm saying is that if they didn't exist in some way, shape, or form then no one would've created the tale, no one would have communicated with it, no one would worship it, etc.

I'll say that I'm not one to believe in a god at all, but I do acknowledge that one exists because of the fact that people came up with the story, but I also know that Jean-Luc Picard exists because Mr. Roddenberry made him up as well.   Neither would exist if someone didn't think it up.  That's all I'm saying.

[Ceti Alpha]

Mithos, your argument is circular and nonsensical. No one has ever seen the Loch-Ness Monster, yet its existence is still debated and argued. By your logic, it must exist because people talk about it. And what about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? How much argument and debate has that sparked in certain areas of the USA? So it must exist too, right? By your logic, it does.

You half-way understand my argument.  I am in no way saying that they're real.  I'm saying gods exist in the same way the Loch-Ness monster or even the Flying Spaghetti monster exist.  They're fiction yes, but someone brought them into existence by making them.  My logic is simple, people talk about them because they made them up at one point or another.  Some people believe evidence exists to prove it's real and others think it's bullshit.  It's the same way Superman exists or hell it's even the same way M'ldor V. Fakeness exists.  I just made them myself.  Now how they exist is up to you.  I see them as works of fiction. But I see them as existing in the sense that fictional characters do.  As I've said before you can worship them or you can't.  You're alive and have your own free will so do so.  Some people think gods are made up while some think they're able to interact with the world we're in.  All I'm saying is that if they didn't exist in some way, shape, or form then no one would've created the tale, no one would have communicated with it, no one would worship it, etc.

I'll say that I'm not one to believe in a god at all, but I do acknowledge that one exists because of the fact that people came up with the story, but I also know that Jean-Luc Picard exists because Mr. Roddenberry made him up as well.   Neither would exist if someone didn't think it up.  That's all I'm saying. 

Yes, and I would call anybody crazy who thinks Jean Luc Picard is actually real.

[albinoMithos]

Mithos, your argument is circular and nonsensical. No one has ever seen the Loch-Ness Monster, yet its existence is still debated and argued. By your logic, it must exist because people talk about it. And what about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? How much argument and debate has that sparked in certain areas of the USA? So it must exist too, right? By your logic, it does.

You half-way understand my argument.  I am in no way saying that they're real.  I'm saying gods exist in the same way the Loch-Ness monster or even the Flying Spaghetti monster exist.  They're fiction yes, but someone brought them into existence by making them.  My logic is simple, people talk about them because they made them up at one point or another.  Some people believe evidence exists to prove it's real and others think it's bullshit.  It's the same way Superman exists or hell it's even the same way M'ldor V. Fakeness exists.  I just made them myself.  Now how they exist is up to you.  I see them as works of fiction. But I see them as existing in the sense that fictional characters do.  As I've said before you can worship them or you can't.  You're alive and have your own free will so do so.  Some people think gods are made up while some think they're able to interact with the world we're in.  All I'm saying is that if they didn't exist in some way, shape, or form then no one would've created the tale, no one would have communicated with it, no one would worship it, etc.

I'll say that I'm not one to believe in a god at all, but I do acknowledge that one exists because of the fact that people came up with the story, but I also know that Jean-Luc Picard exists because Mr. Roddenberry made him up as well.   Neither would exist if someone didn't think it up.  That's all I'm saying. 

Yes, and I would call anybody crazy who thinks Jean Luc Picard is actually real.

He's not real in the sense that you can meet him.  He's real in the sense that someone made him up.  Call me crazy, but Picard wouldn't exist if Roddenberry didn't make him up.  It's all up to your whole perspective how you think of their existence.  Be it in the fictional plane, the plane we exist on, or wherever.   The fact still remains that gods exist because we've imagined them.  Like I've said a million times you can worship them or not you have the ability to follow your own will.

[Ceti Alpha]

Look!! It's the hand of Apollo!!!!




...and here's even more evidence!! Star Trek pwns

[albinoMithos]

Look!! It's the hand of Apollo!!!!




...and here's even more evidence!! Star Trek pwns

Captain's Log, Stardate 9521.6: A giant hand made out of some sort of energy is flipping us off...... I've sent an expeditionary team to investigate it and possibly tell it to go fuck itself.

[NecroPhile]

You half-way understand my argument.  I am in no way saying that they're real.  I'm saying gods exist in the same way the Loch-Ness monster or even the Flying Spaghetti monster exist.  They're fiction yes, but someone brought them into existence by making them.

You're argument remains circular and nonsensical, due to the invalid use of two terms.  By definition, if something is real, then it exists; and if something exists, then it must be real.

real: being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verified existence; not illusory
exist: to be; have existence; have being or reality

If someone believes in God, UFOs, Sasquatch, or whatever, then the concept of them exists, nothing more.

[albinoMithos]

You half-way understand my argument.  I am in no way saying that they're real.  I'm saying gods exist in the same way the Loch-Ness monster or even the Flying Spaghetti monster exist.  They're fiction yes, but someone brought them into existence by making them.

You're argument remains circular and nonsensical, due to the invalid use of two terms.  By definition, if something is real, then it exists; and if something exists, then it must be real.

real: being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verified existence; not illusory
exist: to be; have existence; have being or reality

If someone believes in God, UFOs, Sasquatch, or whatever, then the concept of them exists, nothing more.

I misspoke when I say real.  It's not circular and nonsensical otherwise. The ideal exists regardless, but the actual being exists if you define existence the way I do.  I'll also point out that I'm not the only one who subscribes to this logic and I'm not the originator of the ideal.  That being said you can attack it all you'd like that's why I put it out there.  If you read it the way everyone else here has then it's circular, but if you sit down and think differently or at the very least try to see it the way I see it then it makes sense.   

Come to think of it who's to say what is or isn't illusory? What is verified existence?  Can you say for sure that you exist?  Realness and existence are abstract in nature even in science.  Or at least that's the way I think.  Now do I believe there's a supernatural being  governing the universe around me? Probably not, but I do have a different perspective on things.

[NecroPhile]

I misspoke when I say real.  It's not circular and nonsensical otherwise. The ideal exists regardless, but the actual being exists if you define existence the way I do.

The definition of 'existence' is not open to debate; I can define 'banana' as 'carburetor', but does that make it so in any logical sense?  If you say that something exists, then you can not simultaneously say that it is a fabrication (fiction).

I'll also point out that I'm not the only one who subscribes to this logic and I'm not the originator of the ideal.  That being said you can attack it all you'd like that's why I put it out there.  If you read it the way everyone else here has then it's circular, but if you sit down and think differently or at the very least try to see it the way I see it then it makes sense.   

Are you referring to the Ontological Argument, which relies on false logic and baseless assumptions?  Though it doesn't exactly fit, that's the closest oft used argument for God's existence that I can think of, and it's only valid if we arbitrarily agree that God is greater than anything imaginable and that real is superior to imagined.  By the way, this is a discussion not an attack.

I can imagine a amazingly intelligent, wealthy, four breasted beauty that loves playing Turbo games, is an excellent cook, has a nearly insatiable sex drive, and loves me dearly, but that doesn't mean that she exists anywhere outside of my dreams (unfortunately).  The only thing real about her is the concept.

Come to think of it who's to say what is or isn't illusory? What is verified existence?  Can you say for sure that you exist?  Realness and existence are abstract in nature even in science.  Or at least that's the way I think.

Buy a dictionary.  There is nothing abstract about realness or existence in nature or science.  If you want to start some metaphysical argument about the color of your bellybutton lint and what the definition of 'is' is, then you're on your own.

[albinoMithos]

I misspoke when I say real.  It's not circular and nonsensical otherwise. The ideal exists regardless, but the actual being exists if you define existence the way I do.

The definition of 'existence' is not open to debate; I can define 'banana' as 'carburetor', but does that make it so in any logical sense?  If you say that something exists, then you can not simultaneously say that it is a fabrication (fiction).

I'll also point out that I'm not the only one who subscribes to this logic and I'm not the originator of the ideal.  That being said you can attack it all you'd like that's why I put it out there.  If you read it the way everyone else here has then it's circular, but if you sit down and think differently or at the very least try to see it the way I see it then it makes sense. 

Are you referring to the Ontological Argument, which relies on false logic and baseless assumptions?  Though it doesn't exactly fit, that's the closest oft used argument for God's existence that I can think of, and it's only valid if we arbitrarily agree that God is greater than anything imaginable and that real is superior to imagined.  By the way, this is a discussion not an attack.

I can imagine a amazingly intelligent, wealthy, four breasted beauty that loves playing Turbo games, is an excellent cook, has a nearly insatiable sex drive, and loves me dearly, but that doesn't mean that she exists anywhere outside of my dreams (unfortunately).  The only thing real about her is the concept.

Come to think of it who's to say what is or isn't illusory? What is verified existence?  Can you say for sure that you exist?  Realness and existence are abstract in nature even in science.  Or at least that's the way I think.

Buy a dictionary.  There is nothing abstract about realness or existence in nature or science.  If you want to start some metaphysical argument about the color of your bellybutton lint and what the definition of 'is' is, then you're on your own.

Really now?  Prove to me you exist then. By prove I mean provide me with sufficient evidence that you aren't a creation of someone's imagination or sufficient evidence that you don't.  A belief is a belief.  Existence isn't up to debate to you because you can't bring yourself to think why it is.  A dictionary is only one definition and isn't the thing that decides how all people define things.  It provides something which is accepted.  Metaphysical arguments are what my 'faith' (or lack there of) is based on.  If you didn't want to argue with that then you shouldn't have bothered responding to me at all.

Oh and I realized another way to state my argument.  A creation exists how you want it to exist be it in your imagination, someone's imagination, or another plane (including the imaginary one you create with your imagination).  I mean to say my goal isn't to prove god exists and has the influence people claim he/she/it has in the sense that people claim gods do, only that one exists somewhere.

[NecroPhile]

Really now?  Prove to me you exist then. By prove I mean provide me with sufficient evidence that you aren't a creation of someone's imagination or sufficient evidence that you don't.  A belief is a belief.  Existence isn't up to debate to you because you can't bring yourself to think why it is.  A dictionary is only one definition and isn't the thing that decides how all people define things.  It provides something which is accepted.  Metaphysical arguments are what my 'faith' (or lack there of) is based on.  If you didn't want to argue with that then you shouldn't have bothered responding to me at all.

Oh and I realized another way to state my argument.  A creation exists how you want it to exist be it in your imagination, someone's imagination, or another plane (including the imaginary one you create with your imagination).  I mean to say my goal isn't to prove god exists and has the influence people claim he/she/it has in the sense that people claim gods do, only that one exists somewhere. 

And now we're back to nonsensical and circular logic, capable of simultaneously 'proving' and 'disproving' anything and everything.  I can imagine that I exist, therefor I do; I can also imagine that I don't exist, therefor I don't.  Wow, heavy. 

[albinoMithos]

Really now?  Prove to me you exist then. By prove I mean provide me with sufficient evidence that you aren't a creation of someone's imagination or sufficient evidence that you don't.  A belief is a belief.  Existence isn't up to debate to you because you can't bring yourself to think why it is.  A dictionary is only one definition and isn't the thing that decides how all people define things.  It provides something which is accepted.  Metaphysical arguments are what my 'faith' (or lack there of) is based on.  If you didn't want to argue with that then you shouldn't have bothered responding to me at all.

Oh and I realized another way to state my argument.  A creation exists how you want it to exist be it in your imagination, someone's imagination, or another plane (including the imaginary one you create with your imagination).  I mean to say my goal isn't to prove god exists and has the influence people claim he/she/it has in the sense that people claim gods do, only that one exists somewhere. 

And now we're back to nonsensical and circular logic, capable of simultaneously 'proving' and 'disproving' anything and everything.  I can imagine that I exist, therefor I do; I can also imagine that I don't exist, therefor I don't.  Wow, heavy. 

And that's why we can't have thanksgiving ham anymore!~ 

[Zeon]

Really now?  Prove to me you exist then. By prove I mean provide me with sufficient evidence that you aren't a creation of someone's imagination or sufficient evidence that you don't.  A belief is a belief.  Existence isn't up to debate to you because you can't bring yourself to think why it is.  A dictionary is only one definition and isn't the thing that decides how all people define things.  It provides something which is accepted.  Metaphysical arguments are what my 'faith' (or lack there of) is based on.  If you didn't want to argue with that then you shouldn't have bothered responding to me at all.

Oh and I realized another way to state my argument.  A creation exists how you want it to exist be it in your imagination, someone's imagination, or another plane (including the imaginary one you create with your imagination).  I mean to say my goal isn't to prove god exists and has the influence people claim he/she/it has in the sense that people claim gods do, only that one exists somewhere. 

Seriously are you guys so retarted you can't understand what Mithos is trying to say, or do you just want to argue about an extremely simple point that bad?

The second something is created it exists, imagined or otherwise. Stabby McStabbins may not physically exist and he didn't before Mithos thought him up, but now there is a Stabby McStabbins whether he is an idea or not. It's no different from having an idea for an invention that you eventually bring into reality. The idea exists prior to invention does it not? Does it not exist in a physical form afterwards?

And now we're back to nonsensical and circular logic, capable of simultaneously 'proving' and 'disproving' anything and everything.  I can imagine that I exist, therefor I do; I can also imagine that I don't exist, therefor I don't.  Wow, heavy. 

In the realm of ideas once someone has imagined you or anything else you or any other imagined thing exist from then on Even if every single person denied your existence including you, it does not change the fact (assuming you were just an idea) that you existed at one point in time.

Furthermore as you exist in the physical realm your imagining your existence or not does not actually make you exist or not exist. Obviously you have a physical presence in this world, you are typing and arguing are you not? Even if you were an automated response you would still exist as a machine.

Atlantis may have very well physically existed, just because we have never found evidence of it does not mean it MIGHT have existed at one point in time. At the very least it exists for the very fact that I can talk about it and explain it in great detail and others will know what I am talking about, whether is was an actual physical place or not.

Finally it's not about proving or disproving something exists. In fact I don't think anyone said you can disprove something because you deny or imagine it doesn't exist. It only works one way.

Also, keep in mind we aren't just talking about existence in our physical plane. We are talking about the imagined plane too.

And that's why we can't have thanksgiving ham anymore!~ 

So YOU'RE the one responsible for that Necromancer!!!!! Oh you can go to the lowest depths of whatever would be most physically and mentally agonizing to you. 

[guyjin]

you are playing semantic games. "exists in someone's imagination" and "exists in the physical world" are not even remotely similar, and you are both trying to confuse the two to justify your mythology. I don't know if this is just how you justify it to yourselves, or if you're deliberately being dishonest, but either way, knock it off.

[Zeon]

you are playing semantic games. "exists in someone's imagination" and "exists in the physical world" are not even remotely similar, and you are both trying to confuse the two to justify your mythology. I don't know if this is just how you justify it to yourselves, or if you're deliberately being dishonest, but either way, knock it off.

Wrong, I am trying to prove God exists, if you somehow pulled that out of your ass, you are making assumptions. If you know mithos, he actually does not believe in god, his argument had nothing to do with proving he exists either. I was only clarifying what he said. Besides I don't need to justify my beliefs, if that were the case I probably wouldn't truly believed that god exists.

YOU are the one who needs to knock it off. You are making assumptions and drawing conclusions about my argument that simply aren't true, probably because I have stated I believe in god, and for whatever reason everything I say MUST be trying to defend his existence. Yes this is also an assumption, but it's how I see it. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Seriously if you believed that God existed solely due to my above clarification of Mithos' argument, you really need some help as you'd likely drink a bucket of acid if someone asked you to.

[CrackTiger]

/fail-owned-reason-fail.jpg

[guyjin]

/fail-owned-reason-fail.jpg

It's a quote from Martin Luther. (the not-king, not-junior one.)
The guy was basically Hitler in a priests frock.

[albinoMithos]

you are playing semantic games. "exists in someone's imagination" and "exists in the physical world" are not even remotely similar, and you are both trying to confuse the two to justify your mythology. I don't know if this is just how you justify it to yourselves, or if you're deliberately being dishonest, but either way, knock it off.

Like a boss!

[CrackTiger]

It's a quote from Martin Luther. (the not-king, not-junior one.)
The guy was basically Hitler in a priests frock.

Wow really? I thought that it was just another unique slogan like "Our Sundays are better than DQ".

[guyjin]

Wow really? I thought that it was just another unique slogan like "Our Sundays are better than DQ".

yep. Martin Luther is indeed fail. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but--more frequently than not --struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God."

Some other choice ones:

"But the Jews are so hardened that they listen to nothing; though overcome by testimonies they yield not an inch. It is a pernicious race, oppressing all men by their usury and rapine. If they give a prince or magistrate a thousand florins, they extort twenty thousand from the subjects in payment. We must ever keep on guard against them. "

"Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads."

"If [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth--that is why they are there."

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God."