Why is the TG-16 way fatter than the PC-Engine?

rtdzign · 01/10/2004, 02:57 AM

Why would they make the system bigger and fatter? Arent they the same thing? Wouldn't it cost more for shipping?

esteban · 01/12/2004, 05:54 PM

companies redesign products for various reasons. in the U.S. the FCC requires electronic devices to be shielded to prevent interference with other devices. but NEC didn't have to make the tg16 huge-- so maybe they thought that a "bigger console" would make U.S. consumers feel that they were getting their money's worth.

sometimes a product is redesigned to fix design flaws in the original product.... i doubt this is the case with the pc engine, since it was a great console design.

NEC Avenue · 05/18/2004, 02:14 AM

Well at launch the TG-16 was competing with the Genesis which was much bigger than a PC Engine. I guess at the time most consumers weren't really into the technology side of game consoles. If you had told the average Joe that the PC Engine had comparable graphics processing power to the Genesis even though it was much smaller in size, they probably wouldn't believe you so IMO that's why the TG-16 was made bigger to compete with the Genesis because to the average Joe bigger is better.

NEC is just really good at semiconductor technology among other things, that's why they can pack so much processing power into such a small device like the PC Engine.

Even today when people see the Game Cube which is really small and looks like a toy with a handle, they automatically think it's a weaker non-serious system than PS2 when in fact it's more powerful in many ways even though it's so small.

theoakwoody · 01/30/2006, 01:44 AM

Sorry if this has been answered before but where can I find pics of the tg16's guts? I know that on gamesx they show chip info and stuff but I am just interested to see how much case space was wasted without having to buy the special tool to open up the case myself.

Ninja Spirit · 01/30/2006, 02:27 AM

Back in 1985, there were similar feelings like that toward the Famicom and why the NES looks the way it does. The Famicom does look like a toy.

D-Lite · 01/30/2006, 02:34 AM

Quote from: "theoakwoody"Sorry if this has been answered before but where can I find pics of the tg16's guts? I know that on gamesx they show chip info and stuff but I am just interested to see how much case space was wasted without having to buy the special tool to open up the case myself.

I'll try to get some up soon.

But the PCB fills the entire case. The whole system was redesigned for the US. They didn't simply plop a PCE inside the US case.

CrackTiger · 01/30/2006, 12:23 PM

What I don't get is why did they go and make it with an empty shell for the back end?

Why not just design it so that it was big + solid and compatible with a CD unit?

Although they might've thought that they didn't want to redesign the actual interface port, they went ahead and made a TG sized bed for it to sit on, so why not make that part a big shell and stick a full sized TG into it instead of the T-shaped one? Then the combo wouldn't have had to be T-shaped either.

They could've just used a little plastic band-aid size cover for the TG like on the PC Engine systems.

I still like the TG-16's design(I'll never be able to judge it completely objectively though), but its not as sleak as the PCE units.

And one more thing, why the hell did they make the Turbo Booster so damn big? Have you seen the PCE version? Its like and inch long. Even the Booster Plus didn't need to be so long. It transforms the TG into a surf board.

I'm just glad that they left the Turbo Express and Duo alone. I wouldn't want to see Americanized versions of them(of course I would, but you know what I mean).

esteban · 01/30/2006, 02:33 PM

Quote from: CrackTiger on 01/30/2006, 12:23 PMWhat I don't get is why did they go and make it with an empty shell for the back end?

Why not just design it so that it was big + solid and compatible with a CD unit?

Although they might've thought that they didn't want to redesign the actual interface port, they went ahead and made a TG sized bed for it to sit on, so why not make that part a big shell and stick a full sized TG into it instead of the T-shaped one? Then the combo wouldn't have had to be T-shaped either.

They could've just used a little plastic band-aid size cover for the TG like on the PC Engine systems.

I still like the TG-16's design(I'll never be able to judge it completely objectively though), but its not as sleak as the PCE units.

And one more thing, why the hell did they make the Turbo Booster so damn big? Have you seen the PCE version? Its like and inch long. Even the Booster Plus didn't need to be so long. It transforms the TG into a surf board.

I'm just glad that they left the Turbo Express and Duo alone. I wouldn't want to see Americanized versions of them(of course I would, but you know what I mean).

Yeah, I love the Americanized hardware as well

. To continue the discussion...

TG-CD
I think the T-shaped design was used for stability (i.e. you can pick up the entire TG-CD + TG-16 combo and it's solid, no worries about putting stress on the expansion port junction). So the "problem", really, is that the TG-16 is so wide. If TG-16 was only slightly wider than a PC-Engine, then the TG-CD could have used a vertical I-shaped design, instead of the suitcase design used in Japan. Personally, I think I'd still want it to be a "double-decker I-shape" (like the Japanese Super CD-Rom drive that slips on the PCE), though the TG-CD unit could have easilly remained on the same horizontal plane as the TG-CD (as the Japanese suitcase did).

So, in a sense, the design of the TG-16 dictated that a T-shape be used for the TG-CD. A front-loading design would have cost too much (motorized tray), and engineered from scratch (no Japanese models to draw from)... So I doubt NEC would have seriously considered a front-loader. While a front-loader would have been neat for the TG-CD (think of the first Sega CD + Genesis combo), I fear that the motorized tray / arm would be giving us problems today...

TurboBooster (Plus)
All right, this thing effectively doubled the size of a TG-16. You're right, it's a surfboard (although TG-16 + Booster was as graceful as a floating dock). I had a TB Plus before eventually getting TG-CD. It was pretty expensive (hmmmm... at least $40-50 back in 1990) and I always felt that the size was used to justify the expense. They could have easily* designed the Booster hardware to fit into the empty spaced in the expansion port cover. Just imagine how rad it would have been to pop-off the old cover and stick an identical looking item that had A/V and RAM... This would have justified the orginal TG-16 cover for being so big.

Thank goodness...
I agree, it wasn't necessary to alter the TE or Duo design. We should also be grateful that NEC didn't muck around with the design of the HuCard.

In fact, here is a working prototype that I own:

This jumbo-sized HuCard (short for "Humungous Card"), would have been packaged in the same jewel cases, thankfully.

Apparently, NEC was considering a different name for this format ("HuTray" and "HuPancake" come to mind) before deciding to stick with the original term.

As you can see in the photo, NEC would have kept the PCB and pin design the same... but they were experimenting with different ways to thicken / widen / elongate the plastic card (just as Nintendo inflated the famicom cartridge design for the NES).

Since the TG-16 was so wide, doubling the width of the HuCard slot on the front of the TG-16 would have easilly accomodated this card without messing up the overall aesthetics.

According to legend, the jumbo-sized HuCard was going to be green-lighted for North America when an NEC engineer sent out a memo saying, "Dudes, the mock-up HuCards are too friggin' huge. Let's stick with the original specifications."

And the rest, as they say, is history.

* I don't really know, since I'm not technically inclined, but it certainly seems feasible.

D-Lite · 01/30/2006, 02:45 PM

Quote from: stevek666 on 01/30/2006, 02:33 PMIn fact, here is a working prototype that I own:

This jumbo-sized HuCard (short for "Humungous Card"), would have been packaged in the same jewel cases, thankfully.

Apparently, NEC was considering a different name for this format (HuPancake comes to mind) before deciding to stick with the original term.

Holy crap that's cool. I'm curious of where you got it, how you knows it's working, and if you'll sell it

jlued686 · 01/30/2006, 06:27 PM

Steve, you have just made me faint from your coolness. Where in the hell did you get that?

rolins · 01/30/2006, 06:32 PM

Quote from: stevek666 on 01/30/2006, 02:33 PMIn fact, here is a working prototype that I own:

This jumbo-sized HuCard (short for "Humungous Card"), would have been packaged in the same jewel cases, thankfully.

That picture is for real?!

SNKNostalgia · 01/30/2006, 09:28 PM

Why is the sky blue? Why are titties great? I dunno they just are!!!

Keranu · 01/30/2006, 09:37 PM

Man, I don't think you've ever even mentioned this before Steve, or even show this picture! Why didn't you show us this a long time ago!?!?

theoakwoody · 01/30/2006, 10:12 PM

Sweet photoshop job. I'm surprised you didn't go with the Dracula X Hucard which I just happen to have in my personal collection. Unfortunately my digital camera is busted so I can't take a pic but it's incredible.

Ninja Spirit · 01/30/2006, 10:50 PM

Dracula X Hucard?! lol awesome.

Keranu · 01/30/2006, 11:28 PM

Photoshop was my second option

, but I just actually believed it because I know Steve is crazy about Military Madness/Nectaris!

esteban · 01/31/2006, 03:44 AM

Quote from: "theoakwoody"Sweet photoshop job. I'm surprised you didn't go with the Dracula X Hucard which I just happen to have in my personal collection. Unfortunately my digital camera is busted so I can't take a pic but it's incredible.

. No way! You have a Dracula X HuCard as well? Damn, I guess they made 3 prototypes after all, not just two of them.

I'd scan the Dracula X HuCard for you folks, but I'm loaning it to CrackTiger at the moment ;).

theoakwoody wins the prize, by the way

TR0N · 01/31/2006, 06:52 AM

Quote from: stevek666 on 01/30/2006, 02:33 PMIn fact, here is a working prototype that I own:

This jumbo-sized HuCard (short for "Humungous Card"), would have been packaged in the same jewel cases, thankfully.

Damn that is a phat hucard

Who would have thought, NEC of useing that design in the frist place.

PCEngineFX · 01/31/2006, 05:21 PM

I just happen to have taken recent gut shots of the TG-16...here are a few. If anyone would like high-res versions (over 2,000 pixels wide) let me know.

esteban · 01/31/2006, 06:27 PM

Beautiful shots, Aaron! What type of lighting did you use?

PCEngineFX · 01/31/2006, 07:22 PM

For any of my studio shots I use two NRG Versalite Professional lights w/150w lamps, and two 44" silver umbrellas as my diffusion.

wayback://nrgresearch.com

You could probably get a similar lighting effect with a cheap florescent lighting rig as well.

Here are a few pics from the same photo shoot of the PCE. I was going to put these up on the site but Assembler already has good shots of the innards.

Keranu · 01/31/2006, 09:26 PM

Very nice shots! I find it funny how the TG16 PCB is shaped just like the plastic core, haha.

TR0N · 02/01/2006, 02:36 AM

Fascinating, Aaron really

esteban · 02/01/2006, 12:18 PM

Quote from: "Pcenginefx"For any of my studio shots I use two NRG Versalite Professional lights w/150w lamps, and two 44" silver umbrellas as my diffusion.

You could probably get a similar lighting effect with a cheap florescent lighting rig as well.

Here are a few pics from the same photo shoot of the PCE. I was going to put these up on the site but Assembler already has good shots of the innards.

Aha! The photos really look nice, it's nice to know that the lighting wasn't super-expensive (I thought it would be over $300 worth of gear). Not that I'm gonna rush out and buy anything, though

.

I used to make 16 mm (gelatin film) movies and I always had to improvise with lighting (I'd use cheap lighting rigs from hardware stores) ... but I've never done studio photography with a still camera. The pics you posted of PC-FX not too long ago were really nice as well, though they were intended to be more artistic and less clinical. Please do some "arty" shots of the TG-16 family of hardware as well! That would rock

.

I know it isn't easy to devise an interesting compostion for a console, but I am a sucker for pictures that have one plane in sharp focus and everything else slightly out of focus. I don't know if this would look nice with a small console, though.

M1Savage · 02/01/2006, 03:29 PM

And here's a look inside the PAL Turbografx -

https://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1306.0

Quote from: NFG on 04/12/2005, 10:51 PMA while ago I opened up this rather rare beast and took a few pics.

The system is a very attractive grey colour instead of the North American version's black.

This is the mainboard, featuring the same 3 chips as every other PC Engine and Turbo* system ever made. Note however the extra Sony CXA1145 chip, which converts the RGB output from the system into PAL-friendly video. The system runs at 50Hz, so it's slower than the JP and US models.

The logo's different and there's an AV port where, on the US model, there's an RF port.

Note the crazy pinout, completely incompatible with the US and JP systems. Same number of pins but weird spacing.

https://nfggames.com/games/vistar/

just for comparison purposes.

Keranu · 02/01/2006, 04:49 PM

That's a pretty cool link as well. NFG rocks hardcore still.

theoakwoody · 02/01/2006, 10:22 PM

So basically the TG16 is an "unstacked" PC Engine. It looks like its simplified to have one pcb instead of a mother and daughterboard. What about the socket for a rom chip, well at least that's what the nfg website said it was.

nfggames.com/games/pce/

I'd love to put ninja spirit or something on the board permanently but who knows if you could even get it to boot. I don't know why but I was under the impression that you could just toss the tg16 innards into a pc engine case but I guess with a little logic I could've figured that one out without even seeing these pics.

esteban · 02/02/2006, 03:12 AM

Quote from: "theoakwoody"I don't know why but I was under the impression that you could just toss the tg16 innards into a pc engine case but I guess with a little logic I could've figured that one out without even seeing these pics.

Well, you can toss the innards of two PCE's into a TG-16

.

theoakwoody · 02/02/2006, 05:50 PM

If you put two PC engines in one TG16 case does that make it 32 bit(8+8+8+8 ) ? Maybe it could even give the 32x a nice run for its money. MMMMM

Seldane · 02/03/2006, 03:11 PM

Quote from: Ninja SpiritThe Famicom does look like a toy.

The Famicom is a toy.

esteban · 02/03/2006, 06:43 PM

Quote from: "Seldane"The Famicom is a toy.

Blasphemy!

Keranu · 02/03/2006, 07:31 PM

Correction: The Famicom is a way of life

.

CrackTiger · 02/03/2006, 07:40 PM

I've got another question.

Why the heck is the Supergrafx so freaking big? Other than to instill a feeling of power(and arcadety?).

Its barely an upgrade over the tiny PCE which was released years earlier.

If it had succeeded, I wonder if all of the accessories for it would've been freaking huge(like that periscope "controller").

PCEngineFX · 02/03/2006, 10:48 PM

Quote from: "stevek666"I know it isn't easy to devise an interesting compostion for a console, but I am a sucker for pictures that have one plane in sharp focus and everything else slightly out of focus. I don't know if this would look nice with a small console, though.

Unfortunatly, my camera isn't an SLR camera so I can't get the cool artsy shots that I'd like to make, however, I'm up to the challenge with my current camera

Another challenge with the USA Turbo systems is lighting as the consoles are black, thus not giving much contrast over the console.

PCEngineFX · 02/03/2006, 10:53 PM

Quote from: "Keranu"That's a pretty cool link as well. NSG rocks hardcore still.

COUGH....the lighting is better in my pixs........cough..... ;)

Keranu · 02/04/2006, 12:21 AM

Quote from: "CrackTiger"I've got another question.

Why the heck is the Supergrafx so freaking big? Other than to instill a feeling of power(and arcadety?).

Its barely an upgrade over the tiny PCE which was released years earlier.

If it had succeeded, I wonder if all of the accessories for it would've been freaking huge(like that periscope "controller").

Man I'm a really surprised I never even thought about that. That really does make no sense why they made it so damn big. Maybe they purposely made it bigger to show consumers who didn't know about the technical stuff that this was an improvement over the PCE because it was bigger, therefore had lots of big, powerful hardware inside

.

Quote from: "Pcenginefx"COUGH....the lighting is better in my pixs........cough..... ;)

No doubt.

PCEngineFX · 02/04/2006, 02:22 AM

Anyone have any gut shots of the SuperGrafx now?

I'm interested to see the inside..........hmm...might crack mine open.........

PCEngineFX · 02/04/2006, 06:31 AM

Ok I couldn't resist....enjoy the shots!

The view we all know and love.

This is a shot of the top section of the SuperGrafx. The mainboard is screwed into the top part of the mold..

The mainboard now detached from the casing. Notice the set of chips to the left and center with plenty empty space left...

Close-up of the set of chips to the left side of the board...

Close-up of the set of chips to the center of the board.

And for those who are wanting an artsy shot, here yah go...SuperGrafx "Darkness" wallpaper!

SuperGrafx "Darkness" wallpaper 1024x768
SuperGrafx "Darkness" wallpaper 1280x1024
SuperGrafx "Darkness" wallpaper 1600x1200

Keranu · 02/05/2006, 12:12 AM

Wow, those shots look really great! Also, I never noticed before, but a Super Grafx almost resembles a TG16 in shape. Almost.

TR0N · 02/05/2006, 02:54 AM

Quote from: "Keranu"Correction: The Famicom is a way of life .

Nuff said a classic system in it's own right.

theoakwoody · 02/06/2006, 01:10 AM

Does the Super Grafx have the smallest library of all time. Yeah it can play pc engine games but geez, I can't believe there's only 6 games for it. That's incredible that they would develop a whole new system and not even support it with more than a handful of games. Some systems have more games than that at launch.

TR0N · 02/06/2006, 01:13 AM

Quote from: "theoakwoody"Does the Super Grafx have the smallest library of all time. Yeah it can play pc engine games but geez, I can't believe there's only 6 games for it. That's incredible that they would develop a whole new system and not even support it with more than a handful of games. Some systems have more games than that at launch.

Pretty much the system was a knee jerk reaction to, Nintendo releaseing the snes.

It was supose to be a, 16-bit system nec just made it into a soup up pce insted.

As for why who knows

:

Keranu · 02/06/2006, 01:15 AM

Yeah, a bit pathetic. I'm not sure if it's the smallest, but damn you think they would at least try to make more games for it, eh?

akamichi · 02/06/2006, 06:29 AM

Well, it does have the best version of Strider EVAR!

Keranu · 02/06/2006, 06:36 PM

OMG, Strider for Super Grafx is ARCADE PERFECT! Just look at those two screenshots released for it!

CrackTiger · 02/06/2006, 08:32 PM

Quote from: "Pcenginefx"Anyone have any gut shots of the SuperGrafx now? I'm interested to see the inside..........hmm...might crack mine open.........

Yours sure looks a lot cleaner inside than mine did. I popped it open to clean it(on a hunch) after having trouble playing PCE Hu's. This was until I was reminded about the PCE/SGX switch.

Dark Fact · 02/06/2006, 11:58 PM

Pretty interesting design of the main board and layout of the chipsets but I do agree that more could've been added to the SuperGrafx. Oh well, them's the breaks.

Am I the only one here who got a slight snicker from seeing that Hudson Bee plastered all over those chips?

esteban · 02/07/2006, 03:15 AM

Quote from: "Pcenginefx"Ok I couldn't resist....enjoy the shots!

And for those who are wanting an artsy shot, here yah go...SuperGrafx "Darkness" wallpaper!

Downloaded and on my desktop! I LOOOOOOOOVE it. This is really superb, I'm was not expecting anything this kool. You've outdone yourself!

Dark Fact · 02/07/2006, 12:03 PM

At least it makes your desktop icons stand out more.

PCEngineFX · 02/07/2006, 07:14 PM

Glad you like the shots

After making that SuperGrafx wallpaper, we really need more of this stuff online (noting this on my todo list).

And speaking of the Hudson Bee logo, someone else mentioned to me that they also found that funny. I personally think it's very cool.