Are you a gamer? Collector? Both?

[RoyVegas]

No need to find that post Sparky.  I did say I was going to start opening them.  I actually did open a couple and sold off a few.  It bothered me.  So I kept the rest sealed and didn't sell any more.  I reserve the right to change my mind.

Sparky, if people want to keep bringing the MC thats cool.  I was just pointing out Arkhan said no need to rehash it, yet brought it up 3 times in the same post. lol

I made a bad impression with people here since my first post.  I don't think the people I pissed off will ever see me differently.  The people on this forum who have hung out with me know me and how I am.  Hell, anyone on this forum is more than welcome to come over and play some Turbo if they ever come into town (even if they like to bash me here on the forums).

[termis]

Hey, Roy, seriously, you sound like an alright dude for the most part.  But just these two points:

...Rare or unrare I wanted the full collection just like most of the people here do. 

I guess all I really have to ask is, did you really HAVE to have Magical Chase?

It's part of the whole turbo experience and I wanted it.  Did I HAVE to have it?  Of course not, it's not air,food or water.  Does anyone here have to have it?  Nope.  Everyone wants it but I can't want it too?

Nah man, not "everybody" wants MC, nor do most (or even majority) of the folks here want a full collection of Turbo/PCE games.  In fact, I'd argue that's for a very small number of folks here.  I think that's one of the key things that separates a "collector" to a "gamer".  My intrinsic playing value for MC is about $10 -- that's what I'd *maybe* pay for it, because that's what it's worth to me as "gamer".

[Arkhan Asylum]

For not rehashing the MC thing again, thanks for bringing it up three times in that post 

I can be invasive here, it fucking fighting street!

I wasnt talking about fighting street...and mentioning it is not the same as rehashing it.  Everyone knows what happened, so bringing up "The MC Tragedy of 2009" is all that needs to be said at this point. 

Ok, my posts don't show I'm a super uber gamer galore.  That doesn't I don't play my shit, it means I don't post about my gameplay.

But you do post about your collection habits.  See my point?

Maybe you should let people see Roy the gamer instead of Roy the collector

[RoyVegas]

But you do post about your collection habits.  See my point?

If you seriously take a look at the posts about my collecting habits, they usually don't start with me talking about them (aside from my website or the forum post about my website).  It starts with people taking stabs at me and me responding.  Seriously, where did this round of anger start this time?  Someone asked me to post a pic of my collection and people started in on me when I did.  That's just the way I see it. 

[NecroPhile]

I still think it's hilarious that you buy sealed Turbo games, don't intend to open or sell them, and you're still trying to argue that you're not using them as showpieces.

As do I.  I've asked more than once what he does consider them, but he refuses to answer such a simple question.

I can only imagine the reaction of developers back then if they were told these kind of things.

They didn't slave away for hours on end so that their finished product can sit on a shelf still sealed.....

I bet their reaction is something along the lines of "So he bought our game, right?  Yippee!".  You're kidding yourself if you think developers are primarily concerned with people's enjoyment and less about sales and profits.

This is nothing new.  You don't like it, ok.  Some will never understand it.  You do things your way I'll do them mine.  The only difference is that some can't respect other peoples choices with what they do with their own shit.

We understand it Roy.  You look out for yourself and could give fuck all about the community.  It's your money, of course, and you can spend it how you please; we are equally free to scorn your actions, voice our opinions, and laugh at your wishy-washy retorts.

Seriously guys why always beat the same dead horse like somethings going to be different.   Your personal way of doing things doesn't make you right or wrong, it makes it YOUR way.  So stop trying to shove the shit on me or others.  Reminds me of the religious assholes that like to come to the door and preach their religion like I give a flying fuck what they have to say.

It's a two way street, genius.  If you'd stop trying to convince us that you're a good guy and that we're all wrong in thinking knowing that you're part of the fucked up current Turbo market, then maybe you'd catch a bit less flak.

If I've earned a nickname so what?  So because I bought the collection and it didn't take me long its a slap in the face to people?  How is this my fault?

Back off the persecution complex.  You know full well that your nickname was earned over your profiteering ways with Magical Chase and has nothing to do with you completing a US collection.

[RoyVegas]

I'll just end my part of the conversation since it never seems to progress anywhere anyway.

For your info though NecroPhile, Guyjin gave me that nickname directly after I bought the 3 Girls Games on eBay.  If I recall, I was childishly talking about what I would be willing to pay for them in the chat before the auction ended.   It had NOTHING to do with Magical Chase as I didn't even own it then.  Guyjin would have to confirm that but I 99% sure on the timeframe.

[NecroPhile]

I'll just end my part of the conversation since it never seems to progress anywhere anyway.

How can it when you ignore most anything that makes you look bad?

For your info though NecroPhile, Guyjin gave me that nickname directly after I bought the 3 Girls Games on eBay.  If I recall, I was childishly talking about what I would be willing to pay for them in the chat before the auction ended.   It had NOTHING to do with Magical Chase as I didn't even own it then.  Guyjin would have to confirm that but I 99% sure on the timeframe.

I stand corrected.  I thought it sprouted from you unapologetically trying to maximize profits from your extra copy of MC.

[RoyVegas]

What have I ignored?  If I failed to respond to any of it line by line it was purely unintentional.

[NecroPhile]

What have I ignored?  If I failed to respond to any of it line by line it was purely unintentional.

The most obvious is the multiple times where you've stated that your sealed games are not showpieces, but failed to respond when I've asked what you do consider them to be.  The closest you came to answering this was when you said that you enjoyed hunting for them, but that only explains why you bought them, not why you keep them.

[RoyVegas]

What have I ignored?  If I failed to respond to any of it line by line it was purely unintentional.

The most obvious is the multiple times where you've stated that your sealed games are not showpieces, but failed to respond when I've asked what you do consider them to be.  The closest you came to answering this was when you said that you enjoyed hunting for them, but that only explains why you bought them, not why you keep them.

Ah ok.  I do enjoy searching for them and that is a big part of it.  I keep them because I wan't to try to get a full collection.  Why?  For the challenge.

[NecroPhile]

Ah ok.  I do enjoy searching for them and that is a big part of it.  I keep them because I wan't to try to get a full collection.  Why?  For the challenge.

So you intend to sell them if you ever accomplish that goal?  Sounds like a hollow victory.

[RoyVegas]

So you intend to sell them if you ever accomplish that goal?  Sounds like a hollow victory.

I haven't thought about that far in advance.  I assume it will take a hell of a long time to get them at cheap prices.  Getting sealed games is not really a priority of mine at all, completing my boxed playable stuff is.  I just grab sealed shit here and there as I find deal that I consider very good.

[Sparky]

But you do post about your collection habits.  See my point?

If you seriously take a look at the posts about my collecting habits, they usually don't start with me talking about them (aside from my website or the forum post about my website).  It starts with people taking stabs at me and me responding.  Seriously, where did this round of anger start this time?  Someone asked me to post a pic of my collection and people started in on me when I did.  That's just the way I see it. 

Roy, let me ask you this...

Why do you think people make comments the way they do? & it seems to be more than 1 person on here taking the so called "stabs".  You need to figure that out man  << fuck I think i sound like Dr.Phil >>

[Raizen1984]

Ah ok.  I do enjoy searching for them and that is a big part of it.  I keep them because I wan't to try to get a full collection.  Why?  For the challenge.

Since NecroPhile can't get a real answer out of you, I'll ask his question again, in as simple a manner as possible so you can't confuse it/dance around it:

Your sealed games are not showpieces.  If they are not for show, then what are they for?

[RoyVegas]

Why do think people make comments the way they do? & it seems to be more than 1 person on here taking the so called “stabs”.

I think they make the comments because what I like to do with my collection is unpopular for many reasons.  I can see the points of view that people have with it and to an extent I can partly agree with some of the issues.  I don't think it's like a personal vendetta or anything like that, I think I'm just a guy who happens to be vocal when people have something to say about the way I collect.  Being that I'm the person thats vocal, I get the backlash.

[RoyVegas]

Since NecroPhile can't get a real answer out of you, I'll ask his question again, in as simple a manner as possible so you can't confuse it/dance around it:

Your sealed games are not showpieces.  If they are not for show, then what are they for?

My personal pleasure.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I bet their reaction is something along the lines of "So he bought our game, right?  Yippee!".  You're kidding yourself if you think developers are primarily concerned with people's enjoyment and less about sales and profits.

errr.  you might be confusing developer and publisher/producerfolk?

Speaking from my *own* developmental standpoint, I was sure more concerned about firing out a game worthy of Berzerk-esque enjoyment and gameplay....definitely wasn't looking at turning stellar profits and breaking the bank. lol

and most every interview and documentary I've watched/read/heard always shows the developers/designers worrying about the player and the game enjoyment...    They're gettin paid either way.

Its the bigwigs that dont give two dicks about enjoyment as long as everyone throws money down and buys it!

but, selling 50000000 copies of a game only to have most of them sit sealed in someones cabinet seems like one of those hollow victories we mentioned a bit ago!

[nectarsis]

I bet their reaction is something along the lines of "So he bought our game, right?  Yippee!".  You're kidding yourself if you think developers are primarily concerned with people's enjoyment and less about sales and profits.

errr.  you might be confusing developer and publisher/producerfolk?

Speaking from my *own* developmental standpoint, I was sure more concerned about firing out a game worthy of Berzerk-esque enjoyment and gameplay....definitely wasn't looking at turning stellar profits and breaking the bank. lol

and most every interview and documentary I've watched/read/heard always shows the developers/designers worrying about the player and the game enjoyment...    They're gettin paid either way.

Its the bigwigs that dont give two dicks about enjoyment as long as everyone throws money down and buys it!

but, selling 50000000 copies of a game only to have most of them sit sealed in someones cabinet seems like one of those hollow victories we mentioned a bit ago!

Yet to be fair (and I don't mean this as a dig)...you released one game, on your own time table, with little financial risk.  You had no deadlines, corporate BS, etc.  You can obviously speak of your experience, but that's hardly a norm.    Some devs prob do really care about the "gamer" aspect, but a vast majority are more worried about the $/#'s/deadlines.  OF COURSE they'll gush in interviews/documentaries...what you expect them to say "screw gamers/enjoyment we give 2 shits less"??  Not saying they're all "heartless", but in reality it's still a buisness for them.

[Arkhan Asylum]

well, you may be right.   But I really do hope they're not just spewing BS to seem like nice people!

that would be lame.

its probably about half and half.  you got the ones that give two shits, and the ones that go "hurry! get it done so we can has $$.  I need more cars"

[Raizen1984]

Yet to be fair (and I don't mean this as a dig)...you released one game, on your own time table, with little financial risk.  You had no deadlines, corporate BS, etc.  You van obviously speak of your experience, but that's hardly anorm.    Some devs prob do really care about the "gamer" aspect, but a vast majority are more worried about the $/#'s/deadlines.  OF COURSE they'll gush in interviews/documentaries...what you expect them to say "screw gamers/enjoyment we give 2 shits less"??  Not saying they're all "heartless", but in reality it's still a buisness for them.

I think this is more the viewpoint of the publishers.  They gave the developers money to make their game, and they're going to want to see a return on that investment.  Hence, hiring marketing and PR folk to talk the game up in interviews.  The actual developers themselves are gamers, believe me.  Suits don't make games.

[nectarsis]

Yet to be fair (and I don't mean this as a dig)...you released one game, on your own time table, with little financial risk.  You had no deadlines, corporate BS, etc.  You van obviously speak of your experience, but that's hardly anorm.    Some devs prob do really care about the "gamer" aspect, but a vast majority are more worried about the $/#'s/deadlines.  OF COURSE they'll gush in interviews/documentaries...what you expect them to say "screw gamers/enjoyment we give 2 shits less"??  Not saying they're all "heartless", but in reality it's still a buisness for them.

I think this is more the viewpoint of the publishers.  They gave the developers money to make their game, and they're going to want to see a return on that investment.  Hence, hiring marketing and PR folk to talk the game up in interviews.  The actual developers themselves are gamers, believe me.  Suits don't make games.

Don't fool yourself..yes they are gamers, but they are still a BUSINESS.  They need to make deadlines, stay on budget...they are still "suits" to one degree or another.  They may "care" more than the publishers, but in the end if they treat it more as "let's do what the gamers want" vs. "let's run a profitable business and listen to the the publishers demands to a T"  they won't last long, and games would see more delays. etc. (Working Designs anyone?..you know a real "gamer company/give the fans what they want").

[Raizen1984]

Well, Working Designs was just a publisher/localization house.  They didn't actually develop games there, which makes your comparison a bit odd.  The publisher needs to concentrate on the money, so WDs priorities were obviously misplaced.

The developers are the artists.  It's their creativity that attracts the interest of the publishers in the first place.  They are the only one's concerned with money, because they made the investment.

Here's an example: When Tim Schafer ditched Activision and became publisher-less for a while because the "suits" wanted him to make Brutal Legend a Guitar Hero spin-off, was he thinking about the money or his creative vision?

[nectarsis]

WHile WD was a publisher/localization comapny..they tampered with most games, they were halfway devs..not ground up work, but still.  Someone quiting because of their "vision vs $" is again hardly indicative of the industry at large.  I already said some/not all,etc.  Many have their "morals/limits/whatever"...but thinking a majority of devs are in for the "love" vs $ is naive.  They may love what they do, be in it for the right reasons, but making $, etc. is the main reason.

Look at ARk..he was pretty much a one man show, he made his game for "love of the game" if you will.  If all these devs aren't concerned with making the $/sales, etc, why aren't more of them independents?

[Arkhan Asylum]

theyre not independents because a small team on a new console is not so great, and then you have licensing, and all of that crap to deal with.

The PC Engine doesn't really have any of that stuff to worry about.


Look at a company like Origin.  Granted they are disbanded now (due to EA's outside interference).  They definitely put the gamers, and the quality of games first.     When EA came and imposed deadlines and started screwing with their flow, is when Origin tanked.   They didn't even get to finish Ultima VIII!

[nectarsis]

Which is one of my points...$/outside influences/deadlines whatever are the MAIN priority.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Which is one of my points...$/outside influences/deadlines whatever are the MAIN priority.

yep, but often its not the developers imposing all of that.... its the people higher up on the payroll.

[NecroPhile]

errr.  you might be confusing developer and publisher/producerfolk?

No.  Like nectarsis noted, both parties are concerned about making money.  Developers crave success, for if a game tanks, they'll have a hard time securing financing for their next project; if the bombing continues, they'll find himself out of business and coding for someone else.

The developers are the artists.  It's their creativity that attracts the interest of the publishers in the first place.  They are the only one's concerned with money, because they made the investment.

Wrong; it's the potential for profitability that attracts publishers.  Creativity and originality do not equal profitability, especially if the game goes way over budget or is oft delayed.

Look at a company like Origin.  Granted they are disbanded now (due to EA's outside interference).  They definitely put the gamers, and the quality of games first.     When EA came and imposed deadlines and started screwing with their flow, is when Origin tanked.

I don't see how it was 'outside interference' when EA owned them.  I'd say that Origin tanked when they had to sell the company for money to pay the bills and keep the doors open.

yep, but often its not the developers imposing all of that.... its the people higher up on the payroll.

So since it came from higher up the food chain, they don't care about it and it's not a priority.  Tell your boss that sometime and let us know how it works out for you.

[Arkhan Asylum]

No.  Like nectarsis noted, both parties are concerned about making money.  Developers crave success, for if a game tanks, they'll have a hard time securing financing for their next project; if the bombing continues, they'll find himself out of business and coding for someone else.

yes...  but youre leaving out the part where paying attention to quality and worrying about the player is intrinsic to the success of their project!   I never said they werent worried about success.  The smart developers listen to their audience, and often are part of the audience.   

Wrong; it's the potential for profitability that attracts publishers.  Creativity and originality do not equal profitability, especially if the game goes way over budget or is oft delayed.

Creativity and Originality can equal profit.  Katamari?

Game designers/developers are artists in their own right.  As long as there is a promising project, publishers dig it.

I don't see how it was 'outside interference' when EA owned them.  I'd say that Origin tanked when they had to sell the company for money to pay the bills and keep the doors open.

bah.  Origin let EA acquire them as at the time EA was *the* publisher.  OSI was plenty successful on their own (Ultima VII?)...  what ended up happening is the big wigs at EA didn't know dick about role playing games and ran OSI into the ground.  Hell after OSI officially disbanded ( on my damn birthday no less), and they stopped having a direct role in UO, the game took a lame ass nose dive.

The OSI + EA maneuver was a bad move that seemed like a great idea.... good ol' hindsight.

So since it came from higher up the food chain, they don't care about it and it's not a priority.  Tell your boss that sometime and let us know how it works out for you.

oh come on. Everyone knows most of the time the suits are out of touch with reality and people wonder HOW they got there in the first place.   Dilbert's pointy haired boss sums that concept up entirely.   

Hell half the reason so many games today are released and turn out to be average, so-so, cookie cutter games, is because thats what sells.  Deadlines show up and developers are forced to omit/scrap things and get it out the door.   Ever notice that the games that get delayed a few times end up being the ones that stand out? :-D

Back to OSI, a former OSI employee ended up releasing the content for Ultima VIII that didn't make it in, as a free patch.

after that gets added in, the game has alot more going for it. lol

[Raizen1984]

Wrong; it's the potential for profitability that attracts publishers.  Creativity and originality do not equal profitability, especially if the game goes way over budget or is oft delayed.

It's impossible to know for sure what games will be profitable.  Games that are both creative and derivative tank based on many factors.  There are no guarantees.  My point was that publishers pick interesting products to fund and market.  Why would they do anything else?

[Obfuscate]

I still regularly play World Class Baseball and Baseball Stars for NES. 

Funny, I had a buddy over just the other day and we played both these games while drinking some beers.

Anyway, to each their own. I just dusted off my duo this winter after bout 10 years in storage. Loved it so much and the nostalgia has brought me to a point where I want to collect all the games I had as a kid, the games my buddy had who also had a Turbo, the games I  rented as a kid I really liked and a few I never got to play but wish I did. When I dug out my system most games were gone and the few left were loose carts and I've been buying what I consider complete enough for me {Case, Manual, Game, Sleeve}. It's been a ball doing it and it's made another cold MN winter go by quite fast.

[nectarsis]

Wrong; it's the potential for profitability that attracts publishers.  Creativity and originality do not equal profitability, especially if the game goes way over budget or is oft delayed.

It's impossible to know for sure what games will be profitable.  Games that are both creative and derivative tank based on many factors.  There are no guarantees.  My point was that publishers pick interesting products to fund and market.  Why would they do anything else?

Publishers VERY often pick products to fund based more on potential profitability than "interesting". True no game is a guarantee, but there's "safer bets".  Hence why we see so many rehashes/remakes, umpteen sequels to established properties, and cookie cutter games.  There is still obviously originality in modern gaming(Ark bringing up Katamari is a good example).  Compare the glut of same old same old games vs. truly unique properties these days...that shows what publishers, even devs aim for.

[NecroPhile]

oh come on. Everyone knows most of the time the suits are out of touch with reality and people wonder HOW they got there in the first place.   Dilbert's pointy haired boss sums that concept up entirely.   

Hell half the reason so many games today are released and turn out to be average, so-so, cookie cutter games, is because thats what sells.  Deadlines show up and developers are forced to omit/scrap things and get it out the door.

Exactly my point; budgets and deadlines often take priority over everything else.  It doesn't matter who sets the budget or deadline, as the developer will usually scale back the game to meet those goals, else they risk losing their jobs and/or funding for future projects.

It's impossible to know for sure what games will be profitable.  Games that are both creative and derivative tank based on many factors.  There are no guarantees.  My point was that publishers pick interesting products to fund and market.  Why would they do anything else?

You're mistaken if you think that creativity is the only (or even primary) yardstick used to pick future projects.  You stated that developers don't care about profitability, but if they have a reputation for blowing budgets and missing deadlines (i.e. - hurting profitability), what are their chances for getting financial backing?  I've no doubt that developers adjust their artistic vision and/or project scope to maintain profitability and stay within the publisher's good graces.

[Arkhan Asylum]

when did i say they DONT care about profitability?  (I dont think I did?)

I just mean they often put more concern on the artistic portions, and it sucks when the CEO-hammer slams down and makes them cut things to meet deadlines.

[NecroPhile]

when did i say they DONT care about profitability?  (I dont think I did?)

You did not.  We just disagree on how often artistic vision is given priority.  I say it's damn rare.

I just mean they often put more concern on the artistic portions, and it sucks when the CEO-hammer slams down and makes them cut things to meet deadlines.

Yeah, but it's better than a game losing focus, becoming stale, and being delayed into oblivion.

[Arkhan Asylum]

most of the hammered down games are pretty stale... :-D

[Fatality]

I am definitely more of a gamer, but I do collect. I have a bunch of old consoles such as the Atari 2600/5200/7800 that do not really get any playing time, but I like to collect for. I really enjoy displaying them and looking at them sit beautifully on my shelf. I would say I'm definitely more of a gamer though. A lot of people obsess over complete in packaged games, but not me. Would I like a game to be in a box instead of loose? Of course, but I'm not going to spend double the price for boxed one when I could get a perfectly nice conditioned loose one. It is all about the game for me.

P.S I like the Av nectarsis. Brandon Jennings is a stud.

[Smashed Brother]

I was always a gamer at heart, but for awhile, I was also a hardcore collector.  Meaning that I would just buy games that I really had no intention of ever playing and just let them sit on my shelf.  When I worked at EB, we occasionally had unannounced sales on PS2/Xbox games where brand-new games would be marked down to under $10 for maybe a day or so (nothing good, mind you).  I would just buy this stuff and leave it sealed for God knows why.  But after a number of years, I had a change of heart and decided to only buy and keep what I knew I would play.  So I sold off over 400 titles that I can definitely live without.

So yeah, I can definitely say that I'm more of a 'gamer' and far less of a 'collector' nowadays.  However, when I buy games, I usually prefer them to be CIB...