Raiden...

[Obfuscate]

Seriously how is this game considered a classic? It blows, you control this slow piece of shit with no speed control and you have some of the least inspiring weapons in shooter history while flying over mostly generic backgrouds. I mean the bullet hell would be fine if your ship wasn't so slow, maybe that would have made the game too easy?

A question for the Raiden fans out there, were the other ports on other systems and the Arcade game have the ship this slow or is it something the Turbo/Engine just didn't get right? As a big shooter fan I was looking forward to playing this one finally and it was a huge letdown. Am I missing something here?

[SignOfZeta]

That's how slow ships were back then, before Cave started cranking out so many cookie cutter shooters that we forgot there was any other style.

If you think Raiden is slow, Pulstar would drive you crazy.

[DesmondThe3rd]

Well, the Turbografx version is very close to the arcade but the problem is the default difficulty is just insane at times making it very hard to avoid shots especially on the later bosses. Unless you bomb the hell out of them early on they're impossible!

[Ceti Alpha]

Well, the Turbografx version is very close to the arcade but the problem is the default difficulty is just insane at times making it very hard to avoid shots especially on the later bosses. Unless you bomb the hell out of them early on they're impossible!

It's true, Raiden is not for the faint of heart. It's arguably not for the courageous, either. heh. I don't mind a difficult game, but I threw in the towel, at least for now. I'm sure I'll get back to it and try to finally clear that bastard. That said, I consider it a classic because it has influenced shooters ever since its release.

Obfuscate, you clearly sound frustrated with Raiden.  It's completely understandable; it's a frustrating game. Raiden was made when companies were still making games with the arcade in mind - that means quarter munchers. Raiden is, by all standards, a quarter muncher.

Maybe speed options would make the Raiden experience easier. During my fits of rage playing Raiden I've cried to the gaming gods to allow the ship one extra hit, as your ship gets upgraded with that new armour when your weapon gets powered up to a certain point. But then it just wouldn't be Raiden.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

I actually had a pretty good time playing the Atari Jaguar version.  I haven't had much of a chance to really 'get into' the turbob version yet.

[TheClash603]

I dislike any shooter that starts you at a checkpoint or at the level start when you die.  It doesn't make sense to me, and has and always will piss me off to no end.

[VestCunt]

God damn, I love Raiden.  It's one of my favorite shooters and definitely my favorite vertical shooter on the TG16.

I really like the power up system.  Shooters with a wider variety of power ups don't usually maintain weapon balance very well, so why bother?  With rare exceptions like Gate of Thunder, half the guns usually suck and I spend a lot of energy avoiding power-ups.  Not so with Raiden. 

I love how that laser can just keep powering up forever.  It adds a level of excitement that just keeps building (until I die, throw down my controller, and shut off the power   )

I like the difficulty.  It's one of the few extremely difficult games I've found where the challenge actually adds to the replay value and doesn't cause me to lose interest.

Most of all, I like the music.  I got into Super Raiden before owning the Turbochip version and it totally blew me away.  It's so good I find myself sitting there with the game paused just listening to the tracks.

[VestCunt]

Oh yeah - DO make sure you use the laser; otherwise the game does kinda suck.

[termis]

Agree with vestcunt on most points - 'cept I personally like the spread shot.

[nat]

Seriously how is this game considered a classic? It blows, you control this slow piece of shit with no speed control and you have some of the least inspiring weapons in shooter history while flying over mostly generic backgrouds. I mean the bullet hell would be fine if your ship wasn't so slow, maybe that would have made the game too easy?

A question for the Raiden fans out there, were the other ports on other systems and the Arcade game have the ship this slow or is it something the Turbo/Engine just didn't get right? As a big shooter fan I was looking forward to playing this one finally and it was a huge letdown. Am I missing something here?

Not really.

The Turbo port is actually closest to the arcade, so the slow ship speed is a holdover of the quarter-munching mechanics like ceti mentioned.

I don't particular like the game either.

My Duomazov bro's opinion, which pretty much sums up my own feelings:

http://www.thebrothersduomazov.com/search/label/Raiden

[Ceti Alpha]

Oh yeah - DO make sure you use the laser; otherwise the game does kinda suck.

I used to think that, but the spread can really work well, too.

Though I do consider it a classic, I don't consider it top-tier by any stretch. The TG/PCE offers up so many great vertical shooties that dish out better graphics and more varied gameplay. Any of the Hudson shooters, for example, trump Raiden.

[rodek]

Raiden is awesome.. Played it all the time in the arcades back in the day..  Ghost pilots(Neo Geo) was also a slow scrolling also good game.

[esteban]

Seriously how is this game considered a classic? It blows, you control this slow piece of shit with no speed control and you have some of the least inspiring weapons in shooter history while flying over mostly generic backgrouds. I mean the bullet hell would be fine if your ship wasn't so slow, maybe that would have made the game too easy?

A question for the Raiden fans out there, were the other ports on other systems and the Arcade game have the ship this slow or is it something the Turbo/Engine just didn't get right? As a big shooter fan I was looking forward to playing this one finally and it was a huge letdown. Am I missing something here?

Disclaimer: At a certain point, and for no apparent reason, I go off on a rant. This rant is not directed at you . I guess I just needed to let some steam out.

Here's the deal with Raiden (believe me, you are not the first to ask why it is a "classic"):

(1) Raiden was not groundbreaking (revolutionary) when it hit the arcade. It didn't break any molds -- it just took a popular shooter formula and executed it very nicely. If you've played a lot of old-skool vertical shooters, then Raiden will be nice, but straightforward and perhaps not as exciting. I feel that Raiden certainly deserves to be placed in the category of "classic" because it was (and remains) a very playable and symbolizes (represents) a certain type of shoot-em-up from  a bygone era.

(2) Raiden, then, should be seen as a polished, evolution of Taito's Tiger-Heli and kin... In an old post I think I traced the history of Raiden to some other games, as well, but Tiger-Heli is a very popular, mainstream "landmark" to use as a reference post.

(3) Super Raiden (CD-ROM) -- in addition to Redbook Audio (absolutely lovely Redbook, by the way), has two (?) extra stages. I have yet to get to these stages, but rolins (an old member) said they were decent. Clearly, he is a better player than me. I have beaten the HuCard, but CHOKED on some parts on the CD. They are identical parts, yet I messed up. I will have to try again (it's been a few years).

(4) Sluggish/slow ship speed. Believe it or not, the last few stages of the game proper (HuCard, not CD), get insanely challenging, but, and this is what separates the men from the boys, if you SIMPLY ACCEPT THE SHIP's SPEED, you begin learning how to dodge in time to save yourself. Yes, bullets and enemy craft come hurtling at you, yet you will find that you can navigate through everything. EVEN WITH A WEAK WEAPON. Despite the naysayers, the checkpoint system is NOT fundamentally flawed, because MOST GAMES do give you a chance to recover (play defense, dodge, learn how to prioritize targets, then unleash the fury of your pea-shooter). The old-skool GRADIUS series, for example, TOTALLY allowed you to survive at a checkpoint, but you had to WORK (see aforementioned strategy).

(5) Yes, I do have a pet-peeve: the folks who complain about old-skool shooter shoot-em-up mechanics (OK, whatever, I'll use the new-fangled terminology). Sure, some games DESERVE criticism. What I don't like is when the critique is applied with a paint bucket to entire eras/genres.

[Ceti Alpha]

That's a perfect analogy: Raiden is a polished Tiger Heli. It really was a good looking game, bitd.

As for the speed of the ship, it's really not something I gave much thought to. Even with games with speed options or upgrades, I usually don't veer too much from the default speed. In R-Type, I grab one speed upgrade and then I'm good for the rest of the game. I can't stand when just touching the dpad will send you to the other side of the screen.

[VestCunt]

Let's also not forget that TG16 Raiden is off the charts in terms of sheer MEGA BITS.  We're talking, what, like 6 MEGA BITS?  Fuck.  That's like two average Turbochips combined.  Way too extreme for most people; they just can't handle it.

[esteban]

Let's also not forget that TG16 Raiden is off the charts in terms of sheer MEGA BITS.  We're talking, what, like 6 MEGA BITS?  Fuck.  That's like two average Turbochips combined.  Way too extreme for most people; they just can't handle it.

[Ceti Alpha]

Let's also not forget that TG16 Raiden is off the charts in terms of sheer MEGA BITS.  We're talking, what, like 6 MEGA BITS?  Fuck.  That's like two average Turbochips combined.  Way too extreme for most people; they just can't handle it.

[_Paul]

The ship doesn't feel that slow to me. Odd, as I usually like a few speed-ups in shooters.

[Tatsujin]

Raiden on PCE was a superb port and blasted anything like away at its time. The MD and SFC ports are big lulzing jokes against, and even a 64Bit jaguar megamachine couldn't do what the PCE has done many years before.

In all my honesty, PCE Raiden also plays a bit faster and more dynamic as its arcade pendant. But at the time of comparing them, I had only the PSx Raiden PJ to hands (sure NTSC-J). But that is considered as 99.999999999998495% arcade faithful.

[geise]

I have always loved Raiden and playing it on the Turbo was amazing back in the day.  It's so close to the arcade for when it came out.  I actually like how slow your ship moves in Raiden.  Sometimes in most shooters I feel my ship moves too fast.  With a slower ship I feel that I can dodge more accurately.  I guess if a player sits down with Raiden now a days for the first time it some might not understand why it's considered a classic.  Well for it's time it was.  Not a perfect game but it was a very nice shooter for it's time.  Having such a nice port to the Turbo made it even better for us back in the day.  I cried when I rented the SFC version.  Well not really but then going out and buying the Turbo version I was 

[rodek]

[Mathius]

If I had to choose between Raiden and Fire Shark I'd choose Fire Shark. Fire Shark may be a Raiden clone, but it's much more balanced.

[_Paul]

"The sound and music of Raiden are good for a game of this type, which is usually below action-adventures but above role-playing games."

 :

 

 

And people got paid to write stuff like that?

[spenoza]

I love Raiden and I have to confess that I never liked any of the home ports. Raiden may not have broken any molds in gameplay, but it was one of the more graphically intense shooters of the time, what with tanks leaving scars on the land and the way helicopters and such exploded. Further, some of the bosses were well animated. Raiden also had some fantastic sound effects that just didn't translate well to the consoles, like the bassy bomb explosion. I felt like Raiden was the epitome of that particular style of shooter, at least until Raiden II came out. Now that it has been pointed out, I do see clearly the debt owed to Tiger Heli. I really enjoyed that title in the arcade as well, and this is another case where the console ports just didn't feel compelling to me.

So I guess this makes me an outlier here. I love the game and I hate all the console ports (save the PS version).

[Tatsujin]

hmm..

[Ceti Alpha]

Raiden may not have broken any molds in gameplay, but it was one of the more graphically intense shooters of the time, what with tanks leaving scars on the land...

 

[esteban]

Tangent: I LOVE TIGER HELI. WHEN A BULLET GRAZES YOUR HELI, YOU ARE PENALIZED BY HAVING A BOMB TRIGGERED. IF YOU HAVE NO BOMBS, WELL, SORRY, YOU DIE.

Nuances like that are absolutely lovely. It shows the love and thoughtfulness of the developers

The implementation of the "Little Heli" power-ups is very nice as well: you can develop interesting strategies (forward-firing vs. side-firing configurations) based on your personal style of play.

Back on topic: Raiden.

[spenoza]

Raiden may not have broken any molds in gameplay, but it was one of the more graphically intense shooters of the time, what with tanks leaving scars on the land...

 

Destroying a stationary object and having it leave a mark is different in my mind than having moving objects that leave a trace.

[Ceti Alpha]

Ah, you must mean how you could blow up the top of the tank and still have it moving? I couldn't find a screenshot of the moving tanks in Xevious that leave a mark.

[spenoza]

Ah, you must mean how you could blow up the top of the tank and still have it moving? I couldn't find a screenshot of the moving tanks in Xevious that leave a mark.

Stop destroying my illusions! My fake world is better than your real world! Lalalalalala! Just because other games can do it, too doesn't mean Raiden didn't do it BESTEST!

[Ceti Alpha]

Ah, you must mean how you could blow up the top of the tank and still have it moving? I couldn't find a screenshot of the moving tanks in Xevious that leave a mark.

Stop destroying my illusions! My fake world is better than your real world! Lalalalalala! Just because other games can do it, too doesn't mean Raiden didn't do it BESTEST!

I know what you're saying. Raiden was eye candy, BITD.

[Tatsujin]

Raiden may not have broken any molds in gameplay, but it was one of the more graphically intense shooters of the time, what with tanks leaving scars on the land...

 

Destroying a stationary object and having it leave a mark is different in my mind than having moving objects that leave a trace.

so how about tatsujin and even earlier toaplan shootaz?

[MottZilla]

Raiden and Super Raiden on PCE definitely were alot better than the SNES and Genesis ports. Maybe even the Atari Jaguar port too. But the Playstation version is probably best since PCE does seem to suffer from sprite drop where as that's a non-issue for PS. It's also probably more affordable to buy The Raiden Project on PS than to buy the TG16 HuCard, or the Super CD version.

It's a fun game, and you could check out Raiden DX on PS and Raiden III on PS2 and Raiden IV on Xbox 360.

[Tatsujin]

Raiden on MD, SFC & Jaguar were pure frauds. At that time, the PCE Raiden was the only one who showed how it has to be (except of fm towns).

[Obfuscate]

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

I'm no historian on arcade shooters but I know I like and "get" R-Type and why it's a classic. Maybe not as old but Areo Blasters is a hard arcade shooter I love on the turbo also. I guess I don't get why people like Raiden though at all. In my opinion bullet hell + slow ship mix as well as toothpaste and orange juice. To each there own though.

On a brighter note the last couple days I've been playing Nexzr Summer Carnival 93. This is a great game and looks like it may hold up to other turbo shooter favs of mine like Soldier Blade and Gates of Thunder. The caravan mode and the regular game are fantastic.

[Ceti Alpha]

I'm no historian on arcade shooters but I know I like and "get" R-Type and why it's a classic. Maybe not as old but Aero Blasters is a hard arcade shooter I love on the turbo also.

Two classics right there: R-Type and Aero Blasters. I don't think those two games get the short shrift, but Aero Blasters probably deserves more credit than it gets. It's up there in the TG and PCE libraries.

On a brighter note the last couple days I've been playing Nexzr Summer Carnival 93. This is a great game and looks like it may hold up to other turbo shooter favs of mine like Soldier Blade and Gates of Thunder. The caravan mode and the regular game are fantastic.

Nexzr is the shooter by which all other shooters are judged.  

Seriously though, Nexzr is amazing. It's one of my top tier games. Nexzr takes Raiden, stomps on it, flips it over, and gives the other side another stomp. Runinruder said that the only thing keeping this game from being perfect is the lack of a terrestrial level, and I agree. It would have been nice to change the scenery up a little bit, even if just for one level. But the sprites, graphics, music are all amazing. Anyone who gives this game short shrift shall be PUNISHED!

[Tatsujin]

Anyone who gives this game short shrift shall be PUNISHED!

I think such a dumb person does not exist. And in case it does..

  IGNORANCE DOES NOT PREVENT PUNISHMENT!!

[spenoza]

I like that Raiden is a precursor of bullet hell without actually being bullet hell. I actually hate most bullet hell shooters, but I love Raiden because it doesn't feel quite so finicky and contrived. It puts on a show of being over realistic environments and realistic enemies and bosses (not like super-realistic, but realistic compared to many later, more conceptual shooters).

[VestCunt]

I guess I don't get why people like Raiden though at all. In my opinion bullet hell + slow ship mix as well as toothpaste and orange juice.

Even as a Raiden lover, I agree that the "bullet hell" sucks and takes the fun out of the game real fast.

Again, this is why, IMO, using the laser and not the Vulcan gun is absolutely critical.  Nowhere is "the best defense is a good offense" more true than Raiden.  So get the laser.  Next, pay attention to where the massive, bullet-spewing tanks and battleships enter the screen on each level.  When they show up, you typically have a couple seconds before they cut loose and fill the screen with bullets.  Be waiting for them!  Position your ship halfway up the screen so you can pump shots into them faster and fire at nothing until they show up.  The laser will cut just about anything to ribbons before they can open fire.  On the rare occasions you do end up with a certain-death swarm of bullets heading your way, drop a bomb and shoot from behind the protective blast radius.

Not using the Vulcan gun means there's a lot more riff-raff flying around and I recommend pairing the laser with the homing missiles to help clean up the small fries.

To summarize, here are the Strategies for Raiden Enjoyment:
1)  Buy the SCD for the music.
2)  Use the laser and homing missiles.
3)  Hose the big brutes before they get a shot off.
4)  Don't die.

[Ceti Alpha]

Raiden and Super Raiden on PCE definitely were alot better than the SNES and Genesis ports. Maybe even the Atari Jaguar port too. But the Playstation version is probably best since PCE does seem to suffer from sprite drop where as that's a non-issue for PS. It's also probably more affordable to buy The Raiden Project on PS than to buy the TG16 HuCard, or the Super CD version.

It's a fun game, and you could check out Raiden DX on PS and Raiden III on PS2 and Raiden IV on Xbox 360.

Can arcade ports of games on the PS1, XBOX and other next gen consoles be considered ports or are they just the exact game transferred onto a disc? When I think of a port I think of a translation. For example the Capcom Classics compilation on the PS1 - are those ports or the actual arcade games all on one disc?

[Mathius]

Raiden and Super Raiden on PCE definitely were alot better than the SNES and Genesis ports. Maybe even the Atari Jaguar port too. But the Playstation version is probably best since PCE does seem to suffer from sprite drop where as that's a non-issue for PS. It's also probably more affordable to buy The Raiden Project on PS than to buy the TG16 HuCard, or the Super CD version.

It's a fun game, and you could check out Raiden DX on PS and Raiden III on PS2 and Raiden IV on Xbox 360.

Can arcade ports of games on the PS1, XBOX and other next gen consoles be considered ports or are they just the exact game transferred onto a disc? When I think of a port I think of a translation. For example the Capcom Classics compilation on the PS1 - are those ports or the actual arcade games all on one disc?

I would say they are exact (mostly) emulated arcade conversions. No different than playing them on MAME.

[spenoza]

I'm pretty sure the PS1 doesn't have the power to emulate the original arcade engine. I think it was ported. It just happened to be a nearly identical port. They were likely able to keep the graphics the same and simply had to reprogram the core engine.

[Tatsujin]

Yeah they are mostly ported as it happened to be in the 16bit times, just with using much more oiginal BGs,tiles, sprites and colours as in the weaker 16bit times.

 for example most of the capcom generations do use red book audio, which is kinda annoying since it has to reload a new track when the music changes (e.g. street fighter or daimakaimura level ending etc.). also the arcade gear releases are far from 1:1 arcade (les animations and sound loadings).

in daimakaimura for example arthur isn't walking behind the leaves of grass as it happened to be on the arcade or x68 version. a small detail, yet important to mention.

the list goes on.

[Ceti Alpha]

Yeah they are mostly ported as it happened to be in the 16bit times, just with using much more oiginal BGs,tiles, sprites and colours as in the weaker 16bit times.

 for example most of the capcom generations do use red book audio, which is kinda annoying since it has to reload a new track when the music changes (e.g. street fighter or daimakaimura level ending etc.). also the arcade gear releases are far from 1:1 arcade (les animations and sound loadings).

in daimakaimura for example arthur isn't walking behind the leaves of grass as it happened to be on the arcade or x68 version. a small detail, yet important to mention.

the list goes on.

Ahhh. That's good to know. I've never played the PS1 ports, so I always wondered that. I guess I just assumed they were 1:1 with the arcade.

On the subject, I've been playing some Namco Museum on my DS, and lets just say it's not 1:1 with the arcade. Kinda disappointing, really; you'd think the DS would be capable of mimicking the arcade. Some of the games are closer than others, but Pac Man is just off the mark.

[Mathius]

My above post was mistaken. I was thinking about the PS2 versions of Capcom Classics Collections 1 & 2. But, that makes me wonder if my statement is true in that regard. Any ideas???

[MotherGunner]

Shit you think Raiden is frustrating?  Try playing Zarlor Mercenary on the Lynx!

[Tatsujin]

wow.. that shoot cadence is such slow, it must be a real torture to play that game.

[esteban]

I like that Raiden is a precursor of bullet hell without actually being bullet hell. I actually hate most bullet hell shooters, but I love Raiden because it doesn't feel quite so finicky and contrived. It puts on a show of being over realistic environments and realistic enemies and bosses (not like super-realistic, but realistic compared to many later, more conceptual shooters).

I agree with you. Raiden offers folks the opportunity to flirt with bullet-hell strategies during boss battles (i.e. pixel-perfect taps on the direction pad to dodge streams of bullets), but you don't spend the ENTIRE goddamn game doing this. And, with Raiden, you can try to devise alternate strategies to take care of the bosses (it sounds like vestcunt uses bombs to "clear the screen" of bullets... but what does he do when he runs out of bombs?).

[Ceti Alpha]

Shit you think Raiden is frustrating?  Try playing Zarlor Mercenary on the Lynx!

Wow. I can't believe how close up the viewpoint is. There isn't much room to maneuver.

[Mathius]

By sheer coincidence one of my favorite retro-gaming sites just put of this article on the entire Raiden series. Check it out!!''

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/raiden/raiden.htm