I give up. The Genesis is true 16Bit and the PCE is a 16Bit imposter.

[Otaking]

does anyone know why the Japanese Mega Drive had 1 more bit than the US Genesis?
I always found it bizarre that it was a actually a 17 bit machine yet it had 16 bit written on the front.

[spenoza]

hmm..wears the saturns trancparency?

The Saturn could do hardware transparency, but due to bugs in the implementation, it only seems to work without weird visual artifacts on 2D elements. Most of the rare examples of *true 3D transparency are somewhat trickery-driven (Burning Rangers). The hardware didn't have support for light sources, either, but they could be implemented in software and worked well (Burning Rangers, NiGHTS, Shining Force III).

**correcting myself as I learn more**

[OldRover]

does anyone know why the Japanese Mega Drive had 1 more bit than the US Genesis?
I always found it bizarre that it was a actually a 17 bit machine yet it had 16 bit written on the front.

<knowsenoughtobedangerousmode>
Well duh, it's because bits are even or odd, and the ROM is arranged into even and odd sides. So, 16 is even, but then there's the odd too! So you have to add 1 more bit to make it odd. It's just that they can't count since the Jaguar's math confused them!
</knowsenoughtobedangerousmode>

[CrackTiger]

Wasn't there some clever spotlight effect in Schbibin Man 3 somewhere?

Also, I would have love to have heard what Yuzo Koshiro would have done with the PC Engine sound chip.

EDIT: Ah yes, here it is

/cd9d68ae57008.png

I'd be interested to know how this was acheived as the sprite layer looks like this:

/cd9d68ae57009.png

I think that might be using the PCE's single color third layer. I don't fully understand it's implementation, but if it was drawn in that negative pattern and given higher priority than the spotlight sprite, that could be how it's done.

[TurboXray]

Wasn't there some clever spotlight effect in Schbibin Man 3 somewhere?

Also, I would have love to have heard what Yuzo Koshiro would have done with the PC Engine sound chip.


EDIT: Ah yes, here it is

/cd9d68ae57008.png

I'd be interested to know how this was acheived as the sprite layer looks like this:

/cd9d68ae57009.png

I think that might be using the PCE's single color third layer. I don't fully understand it's implementation, but if it was drawn in that negative pattern and given higher priority than the spotlight sprite, that could be how it's done.

Sprite is set to priority behind the background layer. The parts that show gleaming edged light, are the sprite showing through instead of BG color #0 pixels. Normally you'd think the BG color #0 would be the large flat spots in such tiles, but instead they chose to use the pixel area that would appear to 'gleam' when light hit it. It's not the Jackie Chan effect, but it's clever still. Another game to add to the list of non flickering transparency based/type effects.

[SignOfZeta]

So...its a matte, basically?

That looks really cool. Does anyone have a save state for Magic Engine so I can see this with only a lazy man's level of effort? I don't have this game.

[TurboXray]

Also, I would have love to have heard what Yuzo Koshiro would have done with the PC Engine sound chip.

Ehh, maybe. I rather hear what Tim Follin could have done

[Arkhan Asylum]

Also, I would have love to have heard what Yuzo Koshiro would have done with the PC Engine sound chip.

Ehh, maybe. I rather hear what Tim Follin could have done

Hopefully something good to make me stop hating him for dicking up Ghouls and Ghosts so bad on the Amiga.

That dude rocked the NES hard

[CrackTiger]

Also, I would have love to have heard what Yuzo Koshiro would have done with the PC Engine sound chip.

Here is something similar to Streets of Rage performed by a real actual PC Engine-

[Lilgrafx]

You're stupid, ceti.  The Genesis is clearly a 24 bit machine (16 bit 68000 + 8 bit Z80 = 24 bits of MEGA POWER!), just like the Neo Geo.

Whoa man the genesis is clearly a 64 bits 24+ 32 for 32x + 10 for cd - 2 for being sega = 64

[TurboXray]

Magical Chase is another game with non flickering transparency shadows. Example here:

BG far layer is dynamic tiles, but the shadowing is tilemap subpalette layering.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Whoa man the genesis is clearly a 64 bits 24+ 32 for 32x + 10 for cd - 2 for being sega = 64

PCE is infinity bits.

8 for the CPU, and +INFINITY for TURBOB.

anything + infinity is infinity.

PCE = Winner.

[CrackTiger]

Magical Chase is another game with non flickering transparency shadows. Example here:

BG far layer is dynamic tiles, but the shadowing is tilemap subpalette layering.

That's kinda like how Chrono Trigger sprinkles a transparency layer across the screen for all the little shadow bits. Plus it's doing 'technically impossible' layer-over-layer bg scrolling.

Doesn't Stage 6 of Dracula X do both as well? I'm sure that the alternate Stage 1 pre-boss area does.

[Tatsujin]

Also, I would have love to have heard what Yuzo Koshiro would have done with the PC Engine sound chip.

Ehh, maybe. I rather hear what Tim Follin could have done

Hopefully something good to make me stop hating him for dicking up Ghouls and Ghosts so bad on the Amiga.

That dude rocked the NES hard

Don't hate him for one thing he've done you don't like. Love him for thousand things he've done you like

[Joe Redifer]

Magical Chase is another game with non flickering transparency shadows. Example here:

BG far layer is dynamic tiles, but the shadowing is tilemap subpalette layering.

That looks like the SHADOW feature built in to the hardware of the Sega Genesis 16-bit videogame system.  The shadow should not move with the front layer, though.  So it must be a transparent wall, because a real shadow would stay put on the far background.  Didn't the graphic designers know how light works?

[Arkhan Asylum]

Its magical shadows.

it can do whatever the hell it wants.

[esteban]

[Emerald Rocker]

If Blodia is the best thing going on PCE, then it falls behind even the lowly SNES.

[Arkhan Asylum]

If Blodia is the best thing going on PCE, then it falls behind even the lowly SNES.

the SNES blodias huge balls.

OOOOO

[Vecanti]

If Blodia is the best thing going on PCE, then it falls behind even the lowly SNES.

Mode7 for life!

/bonkn.jpg

[esteban]

If Blodia is the best thing going on PCE, then it falls behind even the lowly SNES.

OBEY BLODIA.

That is all.

[blueraven]

Please use another base photo that is equally funny and original

[TurboXray]

Doesn't Stage 6 of Dracula X do both as well? I'm sure that the alternate Stage 1 pre-boss area does.

From memory, I believe so.

 

That looks like the SHADOW feature built in to the hardware of the Sega Genesis 16-bit videogame system.

Except it's not limited to just shadowing on the PCE. For instance, you could have GREEN shadows. Whatdaya think of that? Pretty fancy.

[peonpiate]

In the PCE's case one of its drawback is its sound chip...Which is only a step up from what the NES could do.

I'm sorry.  What?

32 byte waveforms, 5-bit amplitudes, 6 channels with stereo panning, samples on every channel, and you say its only a step above what the NES can do?

WHAT?

It's on par and even surpasses the Konami SCC due to stereo panning, an extra channel, and sampling capabilities.  SCC has 8-bit amplitudes.  That's its only better part.

Either way.

WHAT?

I mean really, the NES can't touch the PC Engine sound wise.

Dont get me wrong, the PCE can produce decent chip tunes. Its not a god awful system for music and sound as the Genesis is in most cases. But compared to what the SNES could do it does not hold up well. And those examples you linked are exactly what I meant - that music sounds very NES like [to each their own I guess but I had to mute the sound rather fast for those links]. The Snes can produce near CD quality music with its SPC. A better comparison I had in mind was SF2's sound and music vs the Snes version. The sound for the PCE version, which was developed by pros I might add [awesome port] is not up to par with the SNES but it is above the Genesis.

Snes Music-

Chrono Trigger

Someones top 10 list [not mine], good selections though

SF2 Music comparison between PCE/SNES/Genny

The SF2 comparison is debatable I will admit, most prefer how the SNES sounds since it has more "ambience" to it, but the PCE is closer to the Arcade and still sounds nice.

[NecroPhile]

I'll agree that the SNES sound chip is fancier, but you're on your own thinking that Dungeon Explorer sounds like a NES tune and needing to press mute before it makes your ears bleed (or whatever that was supposed to mean).

[peonpiate]

Your right, the Dungeon explorer music is not bad...The intro music had my ears bleeding though which is why I muted it after 15 sec. 

[_Paul]

To my ears, SFII on the SNES is the worst of the three. The SNES often sounds like it's trying too hard and ends up coming off like a cheap (muffled) Casio keyboard, which is why I have trouble finding tunes I like for it on my podcast. The Mega Drive sounds closest to the arcade of the three.

[awack]

Yeah, stage 6 and 1 in dracula x use the shadow effect.


The closest thing to snes transparencies that i have found is from Metemor Jupiter, everything in the pic below animates, the vertical pink bar, the squiggly lines and the squares...unlike magical chase or dracx which just uses darker colors, this actually puts a pink tint over the BG shapes, making it a bit more interesting.

[Joe Redifer]

That looks like the SHADOW feature built in to the hardware of the Sega Genesis 16-bit videogame system.

Except it's not limited to just shadowing on the PCE. For instance, you could have GREEN shadows. Whatdaya think of that? Pretty fancy.

That's pretty damn fancy.  That reminds me of a demo I played on my Genesis the other day.  It is an unfinished platform game simply titled "MD Project".  One of the stages has RED "transparencies".  That's cool and all, but what was even cooler was that there was a pane of "glass" in front of that which used shadow that went on top of it as well.  So basically it was three independent layers, two of which had transparency.  

Dungeon Explorer has awesome music, but it's so quiet.  Even the CD sequel is recorded very low (probably due to the quiet sound effects).  Oh well, volume knob UP!

[OldRover]

The Snes can produce near CD quality music with its SPC.

The Duo can produce perfect CD quality music. Oh that's right... because it has a CDROM drive.

[TurboXray]

Dont get me wrong, the PCE can produce decent chip tunes. Its not a god awful system for music and sound as the Genesis is in most cases. But compared to what the SNES could do it does not hold up well. And those examples you linked are exactly what I meant - that music sounds very NES like [to each their own I guess but I had to mute the sound rather fast for those links]. The Snes can produce near CD quality music with its SPC. A better comparison I had in mind was SF2's sound and music vs the Snes version. The sound for the PCE version, which was developed by pros I might add [awesome port] is not up to par with the SNES but it is above the Genesis.

Snes Music-

Chrono Trigger

Someones top 10 list [not mine], good selections though

SF2 Music comparison between PCE/SNES/Genny

The SF2 comparison is debatable I will admit, most prefer how the SNES sounds since it has more "ambience" to it, but the PCE is closer to the Arcade and still sounds nice.

I think I know what you mean by NES-ish. I've seen other people describe the PCE's sound as such too, and even back in the day. Though I think it's more predominant in PCE music that uses simple square type sounds (like DE and others). PCE's chip is capable of a much wider range than NES, by far. One of these days, I need to make a 'what-the-fuck-are-you-smoking-the-pce-doesn't-sound-like-the-nes-video-check-this-shit-out' video. I think what most people hear first, is the lack of extreme timbre bending of typical FM sound. That immediately separates the PCE's sound from FM. The second is it sounds nothing like sample-based synth, like the SNES or MODs. The closest thing people can relate to, is older PSG type sounds of the NES or similar systems. When PCE composers uses weak/thin drumkits and simple square-ish waveforms, I guess it doesn't help the PCE's case any.

 PCE's capable of all kinds of sounds, though I admit a lot are metallic or in the mid range. And low octave waveforms tend to sound very similar to each other, and high octave waveforms tend to loose their distinctive-ness from each other in much the same manner. But there are games with synthetic background voices (chorus/bending notes like a human voice - like Devils Crush theme), complex harmonics of FM-ish like bell-ish tones, a range of all kinds of bass (guitar) sounds, and from sharp saw; to simple square; to haunting wobbly sinewaves; to those distinct sounds only on pce (both low and high pitch at the same time - like 1943 Kai). It's also capable of changing the timbre to a wide range on a note by note basis, where the NES can't touch (though sadly almost no PCE game does this). To me, it's pretty distinct from NES sound.

 

 Try some of these:

<- Listen to the whole thing. It's long, but worth it.

<- rough of synth trumpet sound for most of the tracks.

<- this I think embraces that classic PCE sound

<- Bonk's Adventure's music has a pretty unique set of trumpet sounds that I've never heard used in any other PCE game.

<- Blazing Lasers. Lots of variety of sounds through out the game's tracks

<- more BL

<- Rtype. Doesn't sound like NES. Actually sounds better than the arcade FM.

<- Love it

<- a handful of tracks. Love the synthy saw sounds, among some other types of sounds in there. Shit, you don't even need to hear it. Just look at the waveform in the video - NES looks nothing like that.

 If you think PCE sounds like the NES (sans some PCE games that probably sound close. There's always shitty technical compositions on every sound hardware), you need more exposure and game time with the PCE system.

The Snes can produce near CD quality music with its SPC.

Yeah, not quite. The sample ram is pretty small. Samples are compressed and on top of that have heavy filtering by the DSP. The small amount of sample ram means you have limited range of your sample to pitch output, before it starts having that off putting overstretched fake MOD sound. And to even fit them all in there, you end of using lower relative C-3 note resolution. You could actually replicate the PCE's tracks on the SPC, but they would sound pretty dull/filtered.Ys III on SNES sounds nothing like Ys III on TGCD, and that's not even taking into account filtering. I'm not saying it doesn't have its advantages, but it's not CD quality. It's strong point is the use of a single sample to replicate many channels (complex chords) and realistic sounds too, but they usually limited to trumpet and strings. Guitars and other stuff sound too tacky. Everything else it does, it replicating FM type sounds (sampled into waveforms). The would have been better off with 2xYM2151 and a few ADPCM channels (static playback). Or something along the lines of a real synth (with VCF's and such).


awack: Ohh, what stage is that? I don't remember that one.

Joe: got a link to that demo?

[Arkhan Asylum]

Heres another comparison for you

SNES complete with Generic Orchestra Hit & Farty Trombone Bass 9000

SGFX (same sound chip as PC Engine), complete with smooth leads, a really thunky bass, and better layering.

Sometimes "more realistic" is not always better.  

See: Amiga games.

I dunno about you but I can't stand cheesy sampled guitar shit.

WHAT IS THAT. STOP IT.

I HATE THE COMMODORE 64 MOSTLY BUT EVEN THIS IS BETTER THAN SAMPLED.


OBEY CHIPTUNES.

Also you don't even need to go to Aldynes stage 4.   Stage 1 is sufficient to realize the PCE pummels the NES.

Epic leads.

[NecroPhile]

awack: Ohh, what stage is that? I don't remember that one.

Skip ahead to about three minutes in:

[SignOfZeta]

The sound chip thing is tricky. Back in the day Nintendo/Sega/NEC/Hudson didn't design these systems to be "retro" on purpose. They were actually trying to be as ass kickingly high end and realistic as possible. In that scenario, obviously the SNES chip just kicks the other's asses. The PCE/MD can't make anything even approaching "real" music.

Of course, now that all that shit is old the sounds of the PCE/MD are honestly more appealing. They aren't pretending (and failing) to sound like real instruments. They sound how they sound. Its very charming and not at all fake. The SNES just sounds like everything is underwater. I think its unfair to stereotype the system based on music from Lost Vikings or whatever though, its not the SNES fault that the soundtrack for Home Improvement sucked, and you can't fault Nintendo for trying. They were trying to make the best thing they could, which is how advances in technology come about most of the time.

A similar thing happened with synthesizers at the time. In 1987 most musicians wanted the cutting edge gear from Roland and Yamaha that sounded "real", and nobody was interested in those old junkers from ARP, Oberheim, etc. Of course now we love those fully analog instruments for what they are (btw, very $$$ right now) and every time we hear any 80s rock think, "Fucking hell, its that piece of shit Yamaha DX7 again. What the FUCK!?!?"

For an example of unashamedly composed SNES music (ie: can only be done on the SNES, but isn't fake guitar reverb hell):

My favorite track in the game is at 6:29.

[CrackTiger]

Dont get me wrong, the PCE can produce decent chip tunes. Its not a god awful system for music and sound as the Genesis is in most cases. But compared to what the SNES could do it does not hold up well. And those examples you linked are exactly what I meant - that music sounds very NES like [to each their own I guess but I had to mute the sound rather fast for those links]. The Snes can produce near CD quality music with its SPC. A better comparison I had in mind was SF2's sound and music vs the Snes version. The sound for the PCE version, which was developed by pros I might add [awesome port] is not up to par with the SNES but it is above the Genesis.

Snes Music-

Chrono Trigger

Someones top 10 list [not mine], good selections though

SF2 Music comparison between PCE/SNES/Genny

The SF2 comparison is debatable I will admit, most prefer how the SNES sounds since it has more "ambience" to it, but the PCE is closer to the Arcade and still sounds nice.

Depends on what any one person appreciates out of music. Many people don't care about actual composition or how well a 16-bit music track is "performed" and only care about the instruments sounding a particular way. Some SNES and Genesis fans like to think that their system is better at sounding like real instruments or simply just plain better as a type of sound. The PCE port of SFII' may have been developed by people who were paid to do it, but they weren't "pros" in the sense of doing the best job with the actual sounds used. The sounds are very average by PCE standards, but I find the actual composition and performance to be noticeably better than the other home ports and the arcade.

Most people, even SNES fans, would disagree with your opinion that the Genesis sound is god awful. The SNES sucks at producing original non-sample based sound and music, since it's all sample based an that's why it more often features sounds that mimic real life instruments. I personally prefer system generated sound like the Genesis and TG-16, even if they mix in samples. I'm also not crazy about the SNES's overuse of reverb and often muffled sounds. Even if a game is using pretty decent quality samples for all of the channels, the slight distortion from each can add.

If you'd like to hear what the Genesis and PC Engine are capable of with all-sample based music, try listening to these-

That PCE example was uploaded back when YouTube had more restrictive sound quality limits and there is some buzzing that is result of loading the rom the way I did. The type of anomaly that sometimes happens during sound tests.

[awack]

Yeah, the stage after the fire level.

The first boss in Metamor Jupiter, actually looks like hardware scalling, it only has 12 frames though.

[TurboXray]

The sound chip thing is tricky. Back in the day Nintendo/Sega/NEC/Hudson didn't design these systems to be "retro" on purpose. They were actually trying to be as ass kickingly high end and realistic as possible. In that scenario, obviously the SNES chip just kicks the other's asses. The PCE/MD can't make anything even approaching "real" music.

Yup. But the funny thing is, the SNES much more often than not - didn't use 'real' instrument samples. Most of the samples are just sampled synths. Even the so called 'realistic' sounds. Genesis has a very distinct sound to it, that was hard for any developer to get away from. A lot of Genesis fans embraced it, but a lot of gamers looked down upon it like they did the NES - for not being able to produce sound out of it's range. PCE falls into this same category.

 SNES offered the ability to really widen its range of sounds, although at a cost of frequency detail and some other side effects. Kind of funny that with such a wide range available, a lot of SNES games ended up sounding like they used stock/lib instruments (dev kits stuff). I thought Yuzo's Adventure Island on the SNES was pretty impressive for its time.

 And this talk of Genesis sounds... the most incredible thing I've ever heard from the Genesis chip:

. Puts the released SNES game's music to shame. Love the use of pseudo filter control in that song too.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Yup. But the funny thing is, the SNES much more often than not - didn't use 'real' instrument samples. Most of the samples are just sampled synths. Even the so called 'realistic' sounds. Genesis has a very distinct sound to it, that was hard for any developer to get away from. A lot of Genesis fans embraced it, but a lot of gamers looked down upon it like they did the NES - for not being able to produce sound out of it's range. PCE falls into this same category.

At the time, those synths were all the rage, and often had very plastic sounding samples of real instruments that lacked the acoustic quality they would have if they were real.

So the SNES was playing sampled samples.  That's funny.

[Joe Redifer]

That PCE example was uploaded back when YouTube had more restrictive sound quality limits and there is some buzzing that is result of loading the rom the way I did. The type of anomaly that sometimes happens during sound tests.

Tom and I are working something more impressive.  ;)

Joe: got a link to that demo?

Here is the ROM:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/12/22/543510/projmd.zip
Go to the stage called Binary Fury.  There are some flicker dither transparencies as well (in addition to the non-flicker non-dither ones).  Best seen on real hardware, of course.

the most incredible thing I've ever heard from the Genesis chip:

.

I wish I could get a ROM file that just played that tune.  I'd love to hear it on real hardware.  That video sounds like it was recorded from a Genesis model 2 and many of those were known for having fubar'd sound hardware.

[CrackTiger]

Yeah, stage 6 and 1 in dracula x use the shadow effect.


The closest thing to snes transparencies that i have found is from Metemor Jupiter, everything in the pic below animates, the vertical pink bar, the squiggly lines and the squares...unlike magical chase or dracx which just uses darker colors, this actually puts a pink tint over the BG shapes, making it a bit more interesting.

Isn't that section 3 independent scrolling layers that all perfectly scroll smoothly, in an only-possible-with-hardware-scrolling way, behind the main layer? So it's 4 overlapping layers of scrolling, with the horizontal red bars both scrolling and fading in and out. Metamor Jupitor is a pretty crazy tech demo.

[Tatsujin]

Metamor Jupitor is a pretty crazy tech demo.

That is for certain!

[CrackTiger]

This video has that 4 layer parallax with transparency for a bit at the beginning (see the previous part for multi-directional scrolling). But at 4:59 it does full screen Mode 7 mosaic.

Pretty good for fake 16-bit.

[Arkhan Asylum]

That mode 7 mosaic is pretty ho-hum.  It almost looks like they accidentally just made it do that. 

Its still neat, but eh, not that impressive. 

The rest is.

[SignOfZeta]

This video has that 4 layer parallax with transparency for a bit at the beginning (see the previous part for multi-directional scrolling). But at 4:59 it does full screen Mode 7 mosaic.

Pretty good for fake 16-bit.

Unfortunately the end result is incredibly un-incredible.

[Joe Redifer]

Is Mode 7 required to make the SNES do mosaic?  The "mosaic" in Metamor Jupiter (more just just straight blockiness as mosaic actually is a de-resed version of something already existing) looks pretty bad.  The real mosaic in New Adventure Island is much better (and a true mosaic), but mosaic still sucks on any system.  There is only one effective use for it, and that is when you get shocked  Then it looks good and is a well-chosen effect.

Speaking of Mode 7 and how each scanline is just scaled differently than the scanline below it to make it a perspective, why didn't they ever include walls?  Granted, this would be tough to do if something were to rotate, but, say, if you were just going forward, couldn't you have a road and a "wall" or building or something at the end of that road which also scaled as you get closer?  I never saw a SNES game do that.    The "tilt" of Mode 7 must have been part of the devkit software, there is no way it had to be done manually.  And I'm sure the software treated it as a tilt as far as the graphic designer was concerned.

[Tatsujin]

IIRC the SFC mode-7 coud do only one playfield at time, walls would then have required more than one playfield.

[Vecanti]

This video has that 4 layer parallax with transparency for a bit at the beginning (see the previous part for multi-directional scrolling)

Here's a link to some of that

And here's one of the spinning backround/tunnel parts

Oh yeah and supports up to 3 player at once.  Any 3 player shmups on the Genesis or SNES?

[Joe Redifer]

IIRC the SFC mode-7 coud do only one playfield at time, walls would then have required more than one playfield.

I doubt it, I think it could be done with a single playfield.  Let's say the bottom half of the screen has each scanline scaled at a different percent to give the appearance of a tilted road.  Every scanline above the top half of the screen would have the same scaling percentage so it would have the appearance of a non-tilted wall.  I don't see why something like that couldn't be done, just as long as it doesn't try to rotate (which it still could, it would just look odd as hell).

[Tatsujin]

Maybe it could be done, but only limited to straight forward move. Seems to get very complicated as soon curves are involved.

[TurboXray]

IIRC the SFC mode-7 coud do only one playfield at time, walls would then have required more than one playfield.

I doubt it, I think it could be done with a single playfield.  Let's say the bottom half of the screen has each scanline scaled at a different percent to give the appearance of a tilted road.  Every scanline above the top half of the screen would have the same scaling percentage so it would have the appearance of a non-tilted wall.  I don't see why something like that couldn't be done, just as long as it doesn't try to rotate (which it still could, it would just look odd as hell).

Yup, you got it exactly. You really need to break in the dev or demo scene. Or least FX design wise. The only down side to mode 7, is that you only have a total of 256 tiles. I believe you can set up mirror flip options (per sub map, not per tile) for the ABCD tilemap layout, so that might help a bit. I've said it before and I'll say it again, SNES really was under vram'd. Not just mode 7, but mode 7 really could have used more vram. PCE and MD has 64k, SGX had 128k. All came out before the SFC. SFC should have had at least 128k of vram.