PC Engine on par technically with SNES / Genesis ?

[peonpiate]

Ive been a fan of older systems for a while now, and ive been a gamer since the nes days. one thing i have noticed and always wondered about was how the tg16 was always panned for being a 8 bit system at its heart...and said to be a hyped up nes more or less due to that.

Now, EGM was the main source of that type of information.

However upon looking up its tech specs ive noticed that ts CPU speed is twice the speed of the snes's and equal to the genesis's...even though its 8 bit that raw speed still matters to an extent. and its color capabilities are better than the genesis's and arguably equal to the snes. Its resolution sizes can equal them both as well and its sound isnt to far off from the genesis though snes murders them both in that area.

So.. unless im missing something here...technically it is more powerful than genesis and slightly weaker than the snes all things considered.

would that be correct ?


for example-
PCE SF2 is about the same as the snes port graphics wise
Drac X on pce pisses all over the snes version
the SNK games tend to be better than the genesis/snes versions etc

[Digi.k]

This is quite a tricky subject ^__^

I would say its on par with the megadrive/genesis but I think the genny just pips in in the way it hurls sprites around (and my reason for saying that is Treasure games like gunstar heroes).  But it displays less colours than the PCE and I would also say that the PCE had better sound chip than the genny.

The SNES isn't what I would call a sprite pusher but for fancy sprite effects like sprite rotation, sprite scaling and transparencies it can't be beaten in the 16 bit console wars.  Plus the SNES had a colour palette of 32k colours and an amazing sound chip produced by none other than Sony.

My only complaint about PCE software is that I wished companies like Hudson Soft pushed the system a bit more with their software especially with the HuCARD format.  I would say that out of their 60+ HuCARD games only about 10 really pushed the system in terms of graphics .. because at its heart the PCE is a 8bit machine I think some companies just treated it like an 8-bit system.  

You can find some fantastic CD stuff though..

I actually think the SNES version of Castlevania 4 was one of the best.. but  Dracula X on both systems the PCE version wins hands down because its on CD and has a much larger storage than SNES cartridge and more stuff like intro, redbook audio and voice acting


Can't really say much the SNK ports but I just loved the SNES takara version of Samurai Spirits/showdown.

take a look at some of these videos I think they really demonstrate PC Engine being a competent machine. These vids have been made mostly from ppl from these very forums! (*cough* shameless plug)

Devil Crash/crush

Gradius

magical chase lvl 4

pc genjin2/bonks revenge

parodius stages 6 & 7

pc denjin/air zonk

super star soldier stage 5

dragon spirit stages 7 & 8

dragon saber stage 7

Sunteams videos:
R-type

afterburner II

Ninja Spirit's videos:

Genpei Toumaden/Samurai ghost

son son II

bloody wolf

Ninja spirit

You can find a lot more videos on youtube of PC Engine games from other membes and lots on dracula X.

[Seldane]

and its color capabilities are better than the genesis's and arguably equal to the snes.

Definitely not. The PCE has 512 colors to choose from, while the SNES has 32,768. That's a HUGE difference. Games like Donkey Kong Country would be impossible to make on the PCE.

Oh, and about Chi no Rondo vs Dracula XX -- the PCE game is considered better in terms of gameplay by most (but not me, I gave the SNES game a fair chance, and I find it superior to the PCE game) but it is definitely not even comparable to the SNES game in terms of graphics. The prettiest PCE games just can't win over the prettiest SNES games in terms of graphics.

So.. unless im missing something here...technically it is more powerful than genesis and slightly weaker than the snes all things considered.

Also not true. The SNES is much more powerful than the PCE. I don't know how the PCE and Mega Drive systems compare, but from the looks of software, the Mega Drive is more powerful. At least in terms of graphics and speed. Or maybe Sega just had better developers.

[merriman_bk]

The thing that really makes me like my pce duo better than my snes is that the sound is better for many games, esp. the cd ones (ofc since they're cd quality sound).  I mean I loved Street Fighter II as a kid, one of my all time nostalgia favs, I could play it all day I like it that much.  And even with it I could tell instantly that the sound of the version for my pce is a lot better than the snes version, made me get into it even more.  Plus the graphics are about the same, for how much weaker the turbografx/pce is it's surprising what they were able to accomplish with it (at least with some games).

[takashirose]

Most of the games for the TurboGrafx/Turbo Duo were exclusives so if someone wanted to play those games, they had to buy the system.  I love my Turbo Duo.  Of course there were a lot of exclusive Super NEs games that I love to play.  The same goes with the genesis.  It's all about the games.

[Seldane]

That's not really what this is about, this is about what the hardware can accomplish, not how good the games are. There are excellent games on all three platforms.

[Joe Redifer]

even though its 8 bit that raw speed still matters to an extent.

True, and it is a zippy little machine for the most part.  A tad bit slower than the Genesis, though.

its color capabilities are better than the genesis's and arguably equal to the snes.

Well it has the same total number of colors as the Genesis, the only difference is that it can put more on screen.  The SNES has a ton more colors to choose from than both, but I think it can only display 256 at any given time.

Its resolution sizes can equal them both as well

Yes and no. I've never seen the Turbo/PC Engine game with an interlaced mode even on a static screen.  This doubles the vertical resolution.  Most Turbo games run in 224p or 240p and never in 480i.  Sonic 2 on the Genesis' 2 player mode ran in 480i (or 448i to be precise).  the SNES supposedly had a 448i mode but I've never heard of any games that ran in it.  As far as horizontal resolution goes, yes, it has plenty of cool modes that are rarely used (like the 512 mode).

its sound isnt to far off from the genesis though snes murders them both in that area.

Murders?  I completely disagree.  I am a big fan of the TurboGrafx-style of sound (mostly just tone buzzes and whatnot, but still pleasant), but the Genesis has better sound capability as well as cleaner digitized sound reproduction.  There isn't anything on the TG-16 that sounds anywhere near as good as the music from Streets of Rage 1 and 2.  The SNES has fewer sound channels than the Genesis, but better hardware to make that sound.  It sounds better for the most part, but the SNES still sounds like a 16-bit cartridge.  The difference isn't mindblowing, and I really hate the overused SNES reverb effect.  This all is kind of subjective here.

So.. unless im missing something here...technically it is more powerful than genesis and slightly weaker than the snes all things considered.

Not more powerful than the Genesis.  I'd put it right under the Genesis.  The Turbo only has one background screen whereas the Genesis has 2 plus better sprite abilities (the SNES has 4 backgrounds).  In order to have overlapping scrolling layers, the Turbo has to use sprites as one of the layers whereas the Genesis does not.  Also, the SNES cannot do sprite scaling and rotation.  It can only scale and rotate a background plane.  The Sega CD can scale/rotate both sprites and background planes.

PCE SF2 is about the same as the snes port graghics wise

Not really since it is missing at least 1 layer of scrolling that the SNES has.

Drac X on pce pisses all over the snes version

I agree (I am a HUGE Castlevania fan), but I think it's more from a design perspective than anything to do with either system's capabilities.  The SNES version looked really bright and the game shouldn't be bright and cheery.  The SNES version also had a lame fire effect in the first level that I do not think looked very good at all.  Sure, it was transparent and all that, but that doesn't mean it looks good.  the PC Engine version had a lot more space to work with.  Each level could have up to 2 megs of power-packed data whereas the entire SNES version only had a wimpy 8 megs.  Plus I enjoyed the control better on the PCE version, but that's just me.

[Digi.k]

there aren't many genesis games that sound as good as Street of Rage anyway.. but thanks to the magic that is yuzo koshiro the genny sounds wonderful.. makes me wonder what the pce could do if Yuzo used its sound chip.

If you really want to make a fair and decent sound comparison.

You could compare sound and graphics on :

PCE Afterburner II & Genesis version
PCE Devil crash/crush & Genesis Dragons Fury
PCE Aero Blasters & Genesis version
PCE Tatsujin & Genesis Truxton
PCE Populous & Genesis version
PCE Raiden & genesis version
PCE Kyuukyoku Tiger & Genesis version
PCE bomberman 94 & Genesis mega bomberman

Those are ones that I can only think of right now where you can make a direct comparison of graphics and sound..

Probably can think of more after I've digested this pizza XD

[TurboXray]

Also not true. The SNES is much more powerful than the PCE.

 Unless you think graphics effecs/colors equal power, I think not.

 The MegaDrive CPU is the exact same model from 1979 version - no changes. While the CPU is actually internally 32bit with 32bit arithmic functions, it fairs less then 1.2 MIPS. It has its strengths, but also has many weaknesses. Depending on what your using it for, its slightly faster or slower than the PCE's Huc6280 (1.4 MIPS). Example, the Huc6280 can increment a value in memory in just 6 cycles with a single instruction( 1 byte), while the MC68000 take much more cycles to execute and multiple bytes for each instruction. Huc6280 code is smaller in size in comparison to the MC68000, therefore taking less space (about 2.5-3 times smaller). The MC68000 does have powerful functions, that are not practical or useful for console gaming code.

 The SNES CPU is slower in performance than the PCE and the MD.


 System strengths-

 MD - The FM chip, 2 plains of backgrounds, linear memory address mode, fast cpu, 64k of ram, most games ran in 320x224

 SFC - Sony SPC music chip(board), hi-color palette, rotation/scaling, 4 background layers

 PCE - Very fast CPU, very fast VDC, 481 colors on screen without any tricks, up to 64x32 sprite size, three resolutions 512,320,256, fast video DMA.

 System weaknesses-

 MD - PSG(ugh!), only 64k of vram for the two background maps(planes), larger CPU code, 61 colors onscreen - only 30 for sprites

 SFC - slow CPU(3.58mhz) - runs even slower when accesssing slow rom(2.68mhz), only 64k for all 4 background planes and sprites( should have been 128k atleast!), non-linear address mode, games ran in 256x224(200) res to save on vram usage

 PCE - only 1 background plane - no tile flipping for background map, only 8k of system ram,  256pixel sprite limit for 320 and 512 resolution mode, no FM chip(IMO), non-linear address mode

[SignOfZeta]

About SFII': I'm a huge fan of PC Engine, Street Fighter, SFC, and 16-bit in general. I've played...a crapload of Street Fighter, and honestly I think the SFII' HuCard is way way too overrated by PCE fans.

Its a nice version, and more than most people thought possible on the PCE. It was the best version of SFII at the time...but that only lasted about two months (maybe less, I can't remember) until the SFC version of SFII'Turbo came out.

The sound...is a joke. The samples are good, and they sound more like the CPS1 version, but they cancel each other out! If one dude says, "hadouken", and the other dude says, "shouryuken" in the middle of it, you only hear half of the "hadouken". SFII' is really slow of course, so it doesn't stand out as badly as it would in a faster game where the samples are being kicked out more frequently, but its still pretty stark. The music is pretty weak too. Again it sounds more like CPS, but not actually as good as the SNES. I consider the SNES sound chip to be one of the great classic electronic instruments of all time, ranking up there with the Moog Modular, and the TR808. I *love* it. Listen to the music in Earthbound/Mother 2. Just amazing.

As for Dracula X: I have no idea why people compare Dracula X for PCE, and Dracula XX for SFC. They are two different games. One is not a port of the other. The SFC ver. is more like a quasi-sequel, or something. They are both very good. I totally perfer the PCE version, obviously, because the level design is better overall, and of course the CD audio, and cinemas are the big draw. The SFC version is way nicer looking, even if that might not necessarily be a good thing considering the tone of the game.

I love 16-bit, and one of the cool things about it was how the three major systems all had their own good, and bad points. You just cannot do Chrono Trigger, Macross, or Super Mario Kart on the PCE, or MD. Likewise you can't do Gunstar, or Thunderforce 3 on the PCE, or SNES. And of course you can't do Ys IV, of Drac X on the other systems.

Well, actually, the Mega CD could probably do a really good job of Drac X, but it never did so...there you go.

[takashirose]

But if the Sega CD could do a really good job of Dracula X, then why did the Lords of Thunder port not come out as good as the Duo version?

[Joe Redifer]

Ask Hudson.  The Sega CD Lords of Thunder was a quick and dirty port of the TurboGrafx version, kind of like the Saturn version of Symphony of the Night.  The systems could do better (especially in the Saturn's case since it was basically made for 2D games), but the developers chose not to.  There was no need to have excruciatingly loud sound effects on the Sega CD version, but the developers chose to and not because of any system limitation.  They didn't have to reperform the music, but they did (I love how some Turbophiles say the Sega CD system itself is inferior because of the music issue in this game).  And they didn't have to use sprites as one of the background layers for the Sega version, but since it was a quick and sloppy port, they did.

Why does Sega CD Dungeon Explorer play more like a wimpy Gauntlet instead of like, well, Dungeon Explorer?  Developers!

[takashirose]

But the Sega CD could only output 61 colors at a time.

[Odonadon]

This is definetely tricky as you need to be specific what you are asking for when you talk power.  Do you mean graphics capabilities?  Most people consider how powerful a machine is by going by it's MIPS value.  Does this equal power?

System strengths-

MD - The FM chip, 2 plains of backgrounds, linear memory address mode, fast cpu, 64k of ram, most games ran in 320x224

I will have to dispute the FM chip as being a strength - I find FM sound unbearable.  I think the PCE is far superior to the Genesis in terms of audio simply because I think it sounds better.  But does that mean it actually is more powerful?

For me, it breaks down to this in order of what "feels" like it has more power:

PCE
SNES
Genesis

I rank PCE above all simply because of the CD unit and arcade card.  You can claim more power when you have more memory and storage space to work with

The SNES is notoriously slow (check out Super R-Type) but has a wonderful colour palette and fantastic sound chip.  However, the PCE can display more onscreen colors at a time than either SNES or Genesis, which usually makes games seem more vibrant and cheerier.

The Genesis just gives you a "dull" feeling all around because of it's color pushing limitations and awful FM Sound.

OD

[merriman_bk]

About SFII': I'm a huge fan of PC Engine, Street Fighter, SFC, and 16-bit in general. I've played...a crapload of Street Fighter, and honestly I think the SFII' HuCard is way way too overrated by PCE fans.

Its a nice version, and more than most people thought possible on the PCE. It was the best version of SFII at the time...but that only lasted about two months (maybe less, I can't remember) until the SFC version of SFII'Turbo came out.

The sound...is a joke. The samples are good, and they sound more like the CPS1 version, but they cancel each other out! If one dude says, "hadouken", and the other dude says, "shouryuken" in the middle of it, you only hear half of the "hadouken".

Yah dude I'm not that picky, I was mainly referring to the background music anyway and nah I don't care if it's overrated -- everybody has their fav ports.

[Joe Redifer]

Ever-so-slightly off topic:  One thing I like about both the Genesis and the SNES (first model at least) is the native RGB output.  This goes a long way to get rid of the "blah" look on the Genesis (because its composite sucks).  Unfortunately the TurboGrafx is stuck with some very bad composite as well.  It shimmers as it scrolls, flickers even on still screen due to the way composite works, etc.  It does look fairly sharp, however.  I just wish the Turbo supported RGB without requiring me to open up the unit and solder a whole bunch of stuff and build a video-processing amp to make the levels acceptable.  The Turbo with RGB (converted to component in my case)  looks awesome, no more shimmering or color banding.  It's worth the hell you must go through.

[TurboXray]

The Sega/Mega CD was a flop. The scaling and rotation looked very pixelated. The should have invested that money into an palette upgrade instead - especially since they were going for FMV.

I will have to dispute the FM chip as being a strength - I find FM sound unbearable.  I think the PCE is far superior to the Genesis in terms of audio simply because I think it sounds better.  But does that mean it actually is more powerful?

Hehe, I figured this might step on some toes. I figured from a technical standpoint - FM is superior to PCE equivalent PSG, even though one might still perfer PCE PSG over the Genesis' FM chip. For me it's a mixed bag - there are some great MD games with awesome FM music and there are some really nasty sound games as well. I do think the Genesis has horrible PSG/white noise effects. I lot of MD games used FM sound channels for game effect because they were much clearer

I rank PCE above all simply because of the CD unit and arcade card.  You can claim more power when you have more memory and storage space to work with

The Genesis just gives you a "dull" feeling all around because of it's color pushing limitations and awful FM Sound.

 I think the SCD and arcade card both were excellent upgrades for the PCE that helped a show its potential. I personally love some of the PSG+"adpcm drumkit" non-CD musics (Fiend Hunter) too. When it comes to PCE SCD/AC vs Genesis/MD - the only thing MD has on the PCE CD system is the extra scrolling background layer. Oh SGX, why were you shown no CD love?

[merriman_bk]

Yah that's another thing I loved about the PCE, it's the only one I can think of (or at least care about) that was able to keep upgrading just via things like cards with a different bios (of a sort) and more ram.  I mean wouldn't it be awesome if modern systems were the same way?

[Joe Redifer]

The Sega/Mega CD was a flop. The scaling and rotation looked very pixelated.

I'm not disagreeing with either of those points, but the SNES was really blocky when it scaled and rotated as well.  I think it was even blockier than the Sega CD.  And the SNES had a transition (used a lot in Mario World) that consisted of nothing BUT blockiness, no actual scaling involved.  However I always thought the scaling in the driving portions of Batman Returns and Soul Star were extremely good for their time.  I never saw anything like that on the Neo Geo.  Too bad so few developers could find their way to the scaling chip of the Mega/Sega CD, and the developers in Japan who found it didn't figure out how to use it very well  (Night Striker, anyone?).

[SignOfZeta]

But if the Sega CD could do a really good job of Dracula X, then why did the Lords of Thunder port not come out as good as the Duo version?

LOT on Sega CD is fine except for the lack of color. Drac X doesn't really have much color to it in the first place. If they wanted to make a ver. of Drac X with everything but the color being perfect, they could have done it.

As with any port that is released not too long after the original game, usually the original is better because the port is just an afterthought to cash in and make some more money. Most of the time the original staff doesn't even work on it.

For a PCE to Mega CD port success story, look at Popful Mail, Cosmic Fantasy, and Snatcher.

[Seldane]

Yah that's another thing I loved about the PCE, it's the only one I can think of (or at least care about) that was able to keep upgrading just via things like cards with a different bios (of a sort) and more ram.  I mean wouldn't it be awesome if modern systems were the same way?

This is not a good thing--this is probably one of the reasons the PCE failed. The N64 got criticized because of its Memory Expansion Pak accessory. The PCE had TONS of these, and that's the worst possible thing for a console to have. It makes it like a computer--you can't use all the software because you need to buy extra (and super expensive) accessories. They shouldn't have released the CD add-on either, they should've released the Duo right away.

[esteban]

Yah that's another thing I loved about the PCE, it's the only one I can think of (or at least care about) that was able to keep upgrading just via things like cards with a different bios (of a sort) and more ram.  I mean wouldn't it be awesome if modern systems were the same way?

This is not a good thing--this is probably one of the reasons the PCE failed. The N64 got criticized because of its Memory Expansion Pak accessory. The PCE had TONS of these, and that's the worst possible thing for a console to have. It makes it like a computer--you can't use all the software because you need to buy extra (and super expensive) accessories. They shouldn't have released the CD add-on either, they should've released the Duo right away.

No, this is simply the groupthink that has developed in recent years as folks attempt to explain why the House of Sega crashed and burned.

Upgrades are *not* an inherently bad thing for consoles, they simply need to be implemented properly. Sega, unfortunately, did *not* implement its strategy for upgrades properly. I'm not even blaming them, it was simply bad timing on their part (i.e. they shouldn't have released 32X to extend the Genesis when a brand new console was coming out and the expensive Sega-CD upgrade was already available).

Folks tend to look at Sega's case study and make *overly* generalized conclusions. I've never really thought about N64 since it is debatable as to whether the memory expansion packs, in and of themselves, were such a bad idea. N64 is somewhat of a different beast, so I'll stick with the Sega/Mega-CD vs. TG-CD/PCE comparison (which I think parallel each other in many crucial ways and thus creates a reasonable comparative analysis).

First, I don't think you can say the "PCE failed" without qualifying the statement. On what level did the PCE fail? I consider it one of the most long-lived systems -- a difficult feat to accomplish given the incredible competition it faced in Japan (i.e. Famicom!).

The HuCard + CD strategy worked very well, with an ample supply of good titles available on both formats for a long time. The two formats co-existed. The same can't be said of Sega-CD, since the CD library for Sega remained a sore point. The 32X library fared even worse.

The upgraded BIOS cards for PCE was even an *more* successful, an ingenious, strategy for upgrading. Software upgrades have always struck me as a great idea, especially when compared to hardware upgrades.

The reason? NEC didn't abandon any of their customers. There were tons of great HuCards and CDs, etc. for folks with the lowest tier systems. For a small investment, folks could upgrade to SCD. Newcomers would simply get a DUO. Explain to me why this was a bad strategy? I would argue that this is, in fact, one of they key reasons why the PCE *succeeded*.

The ACD was always a specialized niche, which appealed to a select segment of the PCE fanbase... so this only expanded PCE's lifespan, but it certainly did not hinder it.

SuperGrafx was *certainly* a mis-step by NEC. But they quickly abandoned it. They screwed over the folks who bought the system, for sure, but at least it was fully backward compatible, so it wasn't a total loss.

Now, I love you Seldane , I just had fun thinking about your comment

[Seldane]

Consider this: The PCE/TG wasn't a successful system, same goes for Mega-CD and 32X, and people didn't buy the Memory Expansion Pak for the N64 either. The 64DD was a disaster too. I believe most console players use consoles because they don't want upgrades, they want to buy the system and then they want to be able to play everything for it. When this is not the case, the consumers will go elsewhere (nobody bought the TG or the Mega-CD, people went with the SNES instead, because that's all you needed).

[Odonadon]

Consider this: The PCE/TG wasn't a successful system

The PCE was quite successful, even edging out the Famicom for a couple years.  The TG-16 was not - this is a very important distinction  I consider myself a fan of the PC-Engine English ports, I'm not a real big fan of the TG-16

OD

[Digi.k]

wikipedia says that pc engine sold 5 million units which is pretty good in my books.

Wasn't the last games were like: go go birdie chance and Dead of the Brain 1&2 ??  I think Dead of the Brain was released in 1999.  Which is amazing considering the pc engine was released in october 1987.

[GUTS]

I wanted to point out that TONS of people bought the memory expansion for N64. You can't really compare it though since they gave it away for free with Donkey Kong 64, and even if you wanted to buy one seperately it was only $30 which is chump change.

Also, one thing I've always admired the SNES for was it's ability to do huge full screen backgrounds that don't consist of tiles, for example like in Terranigma and some of the the other later RPGs.  I can't think of any Genesis or Turbo games that did that.  I wonder why?  Was it just a matter of storage space or was it some trick the SNES was capable of?

[SignOfZeta]

Consider this: The PCE/TG wasn't a successful system, same goes for Mega-CD and 32X, and people didn't buy the Memory Expansion Pak for the N64 either.

In JP the PC Engine was not a flop. It just wasn't. Are you calling it a failure because it isn't still being made? All systems eventuially die. Do you consider the Famcom and 2600 failures too?

The Mega CD/Sega were failures for sure though. More popular in the US this time, so sort of a reverse of the PC situation. A failure no matter how you look at it.

Your basic point, that upgrades limit software sales because every time a new one is released it fractures the userbase, that is correct. The PCE was most popular in the early, HuCard only days. Every ultra expensive as hell upgrade sold for it shrunk the userbase. Manji Maru was the best selling CD, I think, and that was very early on.

N64 however is a totally different thing. The N64 upgrade was *free* with the purchase of the only game that supported it at the time, and pretty cheap to buy later on. I worked at a used game store during the period when people were trading in their N64s in massive quantities, and I can tell you that at least %70 of them had the expasion pack.

This is sort of similar to the Saturn memory expansion, which was  packaged with games for about $9 more. There is no doubt that kept the Saturn sales up for a year or so longer.

PCE add-ons were horrendously expensive by comparison, but because they were so significant, they guarenteed the hardcore support, even if they totally kicked out the mainstream fan. These add-ons are the reason the PCE lasted a decade+, but also the reason why the userbase only shrunk as the upgrades came out.

[SignOfZeta]

I think Dead of the Brain was released in 1999.  Which is amazing considering the pc engine was released in october 1987.

Yeah but its lame for one thing. Also, there was a pretty significant gap between it, and the previous PCE release.

[TurboXray]

Consider this: The PCE/TG wasn't a successful system, same goes for Mega-CD and 32X

 One could argue the TG/DUO might have been a successful system in the US, but to say the PCE wasn't successful system is extremely incorrect. Europe doesn't count as it never had offical support, just an import scene for the PCE.

 The Mega-CD on the other hand wa a flop - in Japan and the US, I assume EU as well. There are RPGs that I would like to play if anyone gets around to translating them (Illusion City, Fhey area, etc). Popful Mail for the MegaCD wasn't a port of the PCE version, they both were indepent ports of the Falcoms MSX (and NEC PCs) version. From all the reports I've read, the MegaDrive was always in third place in JP, so they decided to bring out the Mega-CD incompetition to PCE-CD. It lacked the support from the developement community it needed. Sega already proved that you could do a lot with 61 colors onscreen and the right artists.

 
 I think the PCE was the most successful console(not computer) in developing add-ons. Sure it had some flops, but its got the best ratio of successful to un-.

 As a side note: Hudson's standards were different than Segas' for game developement on their systems. I remember reading that Sega's standards were pretty strict, while Hudson focused on gameplay and simplistic fun.

 Later SNES games used high compression and very large carts. Some used special chips to handle the compressed graphics - Star Ocean.

[T2KFreeker]

You have decided to ask the cursed question man. I can tell you this much, I love my Turbo Grafx system like no other. The thing here is this, it suffers from alot of the idiotic useless retarded crap that EGM likes to call the math adding crap. Here goes, yes, the Turbo Grafx has two 8 bit chips, but they don't like to tell you that it is running off of a 16 bit archetecture, whicn icludes a 16 bit processore. It's the same thing as the Atari Jaguar, two 16 bit chips and a 32 bit chip running off of a 64 bit processor. It is 64 bit, as well as the Turbo Grafx being 16 bit. If we go by math here, then the NES was only a four bit system as it was two 4 bit chip0s through an 8 bit processor, which means that the NES was only as powerful as the Atari 2600? I think not as EGM continues to prove that they know not a damn thing about Console systems and the power that they do have. Example, I just don't see Splatter House running on the NES. Same with Battlesphere running on a SNES, will never happen, no matter what the jackasses at EGM want to say.

[GUTS]

I don't get why everyone calls the Sega CD a flop, sure in Japan it was but so was the Megadrive so what did anyone expect?  In the USA it did better than any other add on in history and it had about 150 games made for it.  How the hell that is a flop is beyond me.

[T2KFreeker]

I don't get why everyone calls the Sega CD a flop, sure in Japan it was but so was the Megadrive so what did anyone expect?  In the USA it did better than any other add on in history and it had about 150 games made for it.  How the hell that is a flop is beyond me.

Because in the modern world of gaming, if you don't sell as many units as the PSOne did, you flopped, which is bullshit. I laugh when I hear people talk about the Gamecube being a flop, it is sad really as people have no clue what they are talking about.

[TurboXray]

Here goes, yes, the Turbo Grafx has two 8 bit chips, but they don't like to tell you that it is running off of a 16 bit archetecture, whicn icludes a 16 bit processore. It's the same thing as the Atari Jaguar, two 16 bit chips and a 32 bit chip running off of a 64 bit processor. It is 64 bit, as well as the Turbo Grafx being 16 bit. If we go by math here, then the NES was only a four bit system as it was two 4 bit chip0s through an 8 bit processor, which means that the NES was only as powerful as the Atari 2600?

 Wait, EMG printed this dibble? By that logic the TG-16 is a 48bit system( 8bit CPU, 16bit VDC, 16bit VCE) and the genesis is a 48bit system too( 16bit cpu, 16bit VDP, 8bit z80). I don't understand the NES having two 4bit chips - it never had seperate 4bit processors? The TG doesn't have two 8bit processors - it only has one.

 The industry refers to a processor by its data BUS (how much bits can be pulled in a single access), not by its internal processing ALU and such. If you refer to a systems bits by it's graphics(colors on screen), the NES is 4bit, Genesis 6bit, SNES 8bit, and PCE is 9bit. If a system is refered by its graphic processor, then the PCE, MD, and SNES are 16bit systems.

[Joe Redifer]

I remember the day when, for no apparent reason, the Neo-Geo became a 24-bit system because it had an 8-bit Z80 in addition to the 16-bit 68000.  Somehow on that same day the Genesis remained a 16-bit system.  And all of the magazines and most of the people on the internet bought into/still buy into SNK's 24-bit advertising.

[TurboXray]

Hey Joe, weren't you on the Sega forums? If so did you ever find/get a hold of a MD game shot that had more than 61colors? Just curious. BTW, I remember the advertisement of the NEO-GEO being 24bit

[Odonadon]

While we're on this topic, who here really thinks the N64 is 64-bit?  

OD

[SignOfZeta]

I don't get why everyone calls the Sega CD a flop, sure in Japan it was but so was the Megadrive so what did anyone expect?  In the USA it did better than any other add on in history and it had about 150 games made for it.  How the hell that is a flop is beyond me.

Well, of the 150 games few of them sold in the sort of number that carts did, and very very very few of them were good.

The Sega CD was something I really wanted to do well, but it didn't. It certainly fits my own personal definition of "flop" for me because it isn't much fun. The list of "must haves" is depressingly short.

[Joe Redifer]

If so did you ever find/get a hold of a MD game shot that had more than 61 colors?

There are a few.  Toy Story has 148 or something like that in the static screens.  Vectorman has well over 61 colors in every scene even though the game doesn't look very good in my opinion (lots o' colors doesn't always mean great visuals).  Interestingly Vectorman 2 has fewer than 61 colors for the entire game.

[Seldane]

The Mega-CD was pretty popular in Europe, and of course--nobody knew what a Turbo Grafx was.  

[esteban]

I don't get why everyone calls the Sega CD a flop, sure in Japan it was but so was the Megadrive so what did anyone expect?  In the USA it did better than any other add on in history and it had about 150 games made for it.  How the hell that is a flop is beyond me.

Well, of the 150 games few of them sold in the sort of number that carts did, and very very very few of them were good.

The Sega CD was something I really wanted to do well, but it didn't. It certainly fits my own personal definition of "flop" for me because it isn't much fun. The list of "must haves" is depressingly short.

I agree with Sign. Contrary to what NickEvil argues in his old article (and I love him, but he's an apologist when it comes to Sega-CD), the Sega-CD's library was incredibly weak and rivals the weakest of the weak. I'm not being harsh, just being a little dramatic to underscore my point.

I was an early adopter of the Sega-CD and really, really believed that Sega was going to do a hell of a lot better with the software.

Part of my affinity for crappy games is because I lowered my standards on what I considered "decent" when I was confronted with (and purchased!) so many lame Sega-CD titles.

Am I bitter? No. But have I been affected by plunking down $$$$, "believing" all the hype of the Sega-CD (remember how they hyped the hell out of the hardware upgrades the Sega-CD added to the core Genesis)? You betcha!

I don't hold a grudge, but I have retained a perspective that is rooted in my actual experience with Sega. I did *not* have unrealistic expectations with Sega CD, mind you -- I simply expected to have a bunch of Sega-CD titles that were *at least* as good as the cartridge titles.  But at the end of the Genesis era, there were barely any Sega-CD games that were *solid* let alone *must haves*, whereas there were literally TONS of fantastic Genesis carts (even more if you include MegaDrive carts).

I should point out that I am pro-Sega. I'm pro SMS. I totally appreciate the Sega-CD, and I love it as much as I possibly can without being deluded by it.

[GUTS]

I've loved the Sega CD ever since I first played Eye of the Beholder & Lunar, hell I can name off more good Sega CD games than I can HuCard games honestly.  People just need to dig into the library a little deeper than Lunar & Snatcher, there are tons of great games like Android Assault, Heart of the Alien, Road Avenger, Final Fight, Robo Aleste, etc.

[Nemo]

I've loved the Sega CD ever since I first played Eye of the Beholder & Lunar, hell I can name off more good Sega CD games than I can HuCard games honestly.  People just need to dig into the library a little deeper than Lunar & Snatcher, there are tons of great games like Android Assault, Heart of the Alien, Road Avenger, Final Fight, Robo Aleste, etc.

No doubt. It's about quality, not quantity with the Sega CD.  Add Popful Mail, Vay, Time Gal, and Revenge of the Ninja.

[TR0N]

BTW, I remember the advertisement of the NEO-GEO being 24bit

I was fooled by that add as well back in the day  

That was of corse untile i discover "neo-geo.com" and i got real deal on that it was realy a 16-bit system.

Still companys like to brag just to boost there sales.

Heck i remember when the, DC frist launch debates pop up wether it was a ture 128-bit system or not  

[takashirose]

I don't have a Sega CD yet, but  I liked that period.  My favourite period was the first half of the 1990s.  The Turbo Duo was part of it.  Regarding, which system was more powerful, they all were.  But one thing I liked about the TurboGrafx-16/Turbo Duo was that you could upgrade the system without having thousands of cumbersome add ons connected to it enlarging it.  The Turbo Duo is the brightest point in Turbo Grafx history.  I am looking forward to the Wii now.  

I wonder if the PS3 will be the next Turbo Duo because it looks like it a little bit and is misunderstood because of the price.  The thing that kills me is the tax for that thing and insurance, which is necessary for a Sony system from now on.  In addition it looks to be ahead of its time.  Though for the money the Xbox 360 is a better deal as a gamer.  A little off topic, but I just wanted to say it.

[T2KFreeker]

I don't have a Sega CD yet, but  I liked that period.  My favourite period was the first half of the 1990s.  The Turbo Duo was part of it.  Regarding, which system was more powerful, they all were.  But one thing I liked about the TurboGrafx-16/Turbo Duo was that you could upgrade the system without having thousands of cumbersome add ons connected to it enlarging it.  The Turbo Duo is the brightest point in Turbo Grafx history.  I am looking forward to the Wii now.  

I wonder if the PS3 will be the next Turbo Duo because it looks like it a little bit and is misunderstood because of the price.  The thing that kills me is the tax for that thing and insurance, which is necessary for a Sony system from now on.  In addition it looks to be ahead of its time.  Though for the money the Xbox 360 is a better deal as a gamer.  A little off topic, but I just wanted to say it.

I am officially not allowed to speak of the PS3 as I just getreally angry with it.

[SignOfZeta]

I wonder if the PS3 will be the next Turbo Duo because it looks like it a little bit and is misunderstood because of the price.

I think I understand the PS3 totally, and I have no interest in it.

I don't think there will be a "next Turbo Duo" any time soon. The way the industry is now, everything is just too "big time". Every game for the PS3, at least for the first few years, will big a mega production with 2000 man dev teams, and $100 million advertising budgets. In short, the exact opposite of Kuni-kun, or Peach Boy, or Bonk. All budget, no soul.

An example: This was on Magic Box the other day:

"SNK Playmore marketing manager Yoshihito Koyama said that their first PS3 title probably won't reach the market until 2009, the reason is that the development cost and initial investment is really high and the user base will not be high enough for their games to sell."

Obviously SNK isn't as significant as it once was, but still they are hardly a small time developer/publisher. If they can't affort PS3, then you can count out anything like a modern day version of Naxat, Technos, Laser Soft, etc.

Its shit like Full Spectrum Warrior, GTA, Star Wars, and Madden from here on out.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

Off-Topic:  I have heard a HELL of alot of "This system flopped" or "That failed"  but truly in my humble opinion, very few consoles in history failed.  Systems like the CDi, The Virtual Boy, and the 32X are indeed failures.  Even the PCFX should be considered a failure.  

Because in the modern world of gaming, if you don't sell as many units as the PSOne did, you flopped, which is bullshit. I laugh when I hear people talk about the Gamecube being a flop, it is sad really as people have no clue what they are talking about.

EXACTLY!! Many of the systems that people call failures have moved off of shelves very well!!  

Back on Topic:
Back in the 16-bit wars I owned a SNES and a TG16.  never really found a reason to invest in the genny.  Allthough there are some bright spots in Sega's 16-bitter.  Gunstar Heroes, Warriors of the Eternal Sun, Phantasy Star IV, Streets of Rage(all).  

If I had to rate sound, this is how it would go-  The SNES sound chip is AMAZING!!!  I like SNES music better than N64's!  Games like Rock'nRoll Racing, Super Adventure Island, and Actraiser have crazy good music!  Then the Genesis closely followed by TG16.  Unless of course if you're counting CD and SCD games, then Turbo Kills all!  Lords of Thunder, Riot Zone, Ys-  BEST SOUNDTRACKS IN GAMING HISTORY.

If I had to rate on Graffics, the SNES has amazing grafx, the Genesis would come in second, but the Turbo comes in a close third.  Like mentioned above, its a shame the system was never truly pushed to its limits.  this is just judging by cart format of course, because if you consider the Super CD and ACD games, then the Turbo and SNES are equals!  

Now heres something that I hadn't seen people consider:
The GamePads.  The Genesis(original) gamepad was terrible, The TurboGrafx was pretty unorigina, but did the job.  Impossible to play SFII with, but still worked 99% of the time with other games.  But I consider the SNES pads to be one of the best gamepads ever made.  You never needed to buy another gamepad, it worked with everything, except the super scope games(lol)

wow, this post is long...sorry...


TurboSage, shoving my opinion down yall's throats!

[takashirose]

I am one of those guys that puts all of the upgrades for the TurboGrafx and DUo in one group.  I love my turbo Duo.  I love all the systems we are comparing now.  They all hold different memories.  Of course I did not own a Turbo Duo back then, but I am the first owner of mine.  

I actually like the turbografx controller because it reminds me of the nes controller and it's not a complicated one.  Of course for Street Fighter II, I would get the Avenue 6 or another 6 button pad.

[esteban]

I've loved the Sega CD ever since I first played Eye of the Beholder & Lunar, hell I can name off more good Sega CD games than I can HuCard games honestly.  People just need to dig into the library a little deeper than Lunar & Snatcher, there are tons of great games like Android Assault, Heart of the Alien, Road Avenger, Final Fight, Robo Aleste, etc.

No doubt. It's about quality, not quantity with the Sega CD.  Add Popful Mail, Vay, Time Gal, and Revenge of the Ninja.

As I said, I am pro-Sega and love the Sega-CD, but the list of games I return to in the Sega-CD library is incredibly small.

I've explored the entire libary (though, to be honest, I've only checked out the FMV titles in the last few years since I didn't bother with most of them back in the day. I have yet to play many FMV titles).

I dig games like Dark Wizard, which is totally underappreciated, IMO (I think it scares folks, but it is an amazing game... just don't expect to ever "master" it ).

I've played completely through some Japanese games, such as Nostalgia 1907, to get a better appreciation of what we never saw in the States.

Mansion of Hidden Souls is a game that I rarely see mentioned, but it was  a little gem in its own right. I don't care what jaded reviewers say: the game delivered some truly enthralling sequences and I loved the entire atmosphere and mood that it evoked. Seriousy, folks today are probably too jaded, but back when this game came out, it was friggin' amazing to experience.  It will always hold a special place in my heart and is one of the most over-looked treats of the Sega-CD. Yes, it was easy and rather short, but I loved it nonetheless.

Since we have been discussing WD in another thread, I should mention that I consider WD to be one of the *saving graces* of Sega-CD. Not to repeat myself ad nauseum, but it's worth owning Sega-CD just for WD's offerings.

[esteban]

Now heres something that I hadn't seen people consider:
The GamePads.  The Genesis(original) gamepad was terrible, The TurboGrafx was pretty unorigina, but did the job.  Impossible to play SFII with, but still worked 99% of the time with other games.  But I consider the SNES pads to be one of the best gamepads ever made.  You never needed to buy another gamepad, it worked with everything, except the super scope games(lol)

In the past we've discussed this

The only thing I disliked about the Genny were the crap controllers. I hated the design... they were horrible and sloppy. I bought 3rd. party pads and was much happier. Otherwise, I loved Genny.