Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE

[Arkhan Asylum]

Your silly typos and grammatical errors don't count but Tom's do.  Gotcha.

That's not what I said, as I don't consider those when talking about my grammatical errors OR TomNut's.   I'd go pull up some of my favorites, but you don't care, and it isn't worth the time.

Don't quite a few Genny games make tunes with the FM chip and let the PSG do the sound effects?  Without the 'irrelevant' PSG, wouldn't the songs suffer having to give up a channel to do what the PSG is handling?

Possibly, but not always (or often)... and not having the PSG wouldn't impact things as much as you'd think.  You can set it to flip back and forth from music to SFX on a given channel... so you only temporarily give up a channel.  Nothing serious, and happens on all kinds of consoles/computers.   all of the latest Aetherbyte games do this as well.  Atlantean gives up 0 channels for sound effects.  It plays them when needed and the 6 channel music continues onward!

Plus, we've been talking about music almost exclusively here.

Arkhan, I like you in person. I am not, however, the biggest fan of your forum posts. You do good work for the community and you seem to know your technical stuff, but I find it frustrating that you express your opinion in such a blunt, abrasive manner. Don't pull your punches, but don't go name-calling. You make it sound as if not being in-your-face abrasive is somehow unnecessarily softening your tone. I disagree. I think there's a neutral tone that is perfunctorily polite that you are neglecting. Do not become some kind of aggressive, ranting internet crusader. OMG, someone on the internet is wrong! So what? Discuss, issue a correction, contend their assertion. It's done all the time on polite terms.

As far as I can tell, the stuff I posted in this thread prior to BonkNuts complaining were hardly harsh or aggressive.  Everyone claims OH YOU ARE EXTRA HARSH TO HIM ALL THE TIME. YOU GOTS IT OUT FOR HIM.  Gimme a break.  It sounds pretty tame when I read it again.  I'm even surprised myself.  No one seemed to give a damn until BonkTom went and whined, and his whining seems a bit lame anyways.  Lets say you posted exactly what I said, instead of me posting it.  I guarantee you BonkNuts would not have said "give it a rest, leave me alone".  He would have proceeded to attempt to cut you down in a hail of intellectual gunfire. 

as for the rest of your post (no point clogging the thread up more, you already have it posted!), where would the fun be in dialing it down a ton?  Usually I'm just blabbering stuff that isn't even directed at anyone.    We don't ALL have to be all non abrasive.  You can be the ointment for my burns.

[NecroPhile]

That's not what I said, as I don't consider those when talking about my grammatical errors OR TomNut's.

If typing 'gluten' instead of 'glutton' isn't a silly typo, I don't know what is.

Possibly, but not always (or often)... and not having the PSG wouldn't impact things as much as you'd think.  You can set it to flip back and forth from music to SFX on a given channel... so you only temporarily give up a channel.  Nothing serious, and happens on all kinds of consoles/computers.

Obviously it's not the end of the world (I didn't say it was), but it does make a difference.  Take a shootie for example: you're constantly firing, effectively meaning there's only five channels available for music.

Plus, we've been talking about music almost exclusively here.

I thought we were talking about game consoles.  I don't really care what a machine can do in a soundtest if it can't do it when I'm playing a game.

[Digi.k]

I agree that there are many types of games that would have helped sales of the system. However, the biggest loss was that it had no 2nd controller port and a lack of fighting action style 2 player games. I really think this made a huge difference in North America. If only Riot Zone was 2 player. What were they thinking?

I also think there was a lack of western character licenses  for the pce/turbo..  honestly would love Hudson soft and NEC to have been more aggressive and produced a; mickey mouse disney /simpsons /x-men/marvel characters game.  Also not having Konami release their games stateside was a blow too.

This reminds me of the old thread where me and ninja S. was photoshopping make believe covers for pce games XD

/xexex-1.jpg
/sunsetriders.jpg
/finalfight.jpg
/daimakamura.jpg
/superstreetfighterII.jpg

[Arkhan Asylum]

If typing 'gluten' instead of 'glutton' isn't a silly typo, I don't know what is.

Maybe it wasn't the best example of what I mean.  It's still bad form to do something that derpy when making fun of a troll, lol.

I thought we were talking about game consoles.  I don't really care what a machine can do in a soundtest if it can't do it when I'm playing a game.

Me either for the most part, but hey, that's what the conversation was about.

[NecroPhile]

Me either for the most part, but hey, that's what the conversation was about.

I thought the conversation was about whether or not the SMS PSG was irrelevant. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

Me either for the most part, but hey, that's what the conversation was about.

I thought the conversation was about whether or not the SMS PSG was irrelevant. 

No that was a sub conversation of the alpha topic in the omega sector.



That sunset riders mockup is a bonermaker.

[spenoza]

Arkhan, it's been in my head a while. I'm just bringing it up now because others did. That's all.

As for missed opportunities, I do indeed think more advanced audio capabilities in the base unit, whether the answer was more channels (making it more attractive to use the FM-like functions), some FM audio, ADPCM built into the base unit, a separate audio processor, or what have you was indeed a missed opportunity. The arcades were clearly headed that direction and PCs of the time were also heading that direction. Again, Hudson's decision to do audio the way they did isn't necessarily a poor one. It made business sense and was certainly competitive compared to the NES and SMS, but even with the CD-ROM unit projected it would have been nice for them to be a little more forward looking.

In fact, if they'd looked to the arcades at all it would have been nice.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I guess I think the audio chip is perfectly fine, and a wise choice.  Having one single background layer was more of a missed opportunity, IMO.  The audio in most games is pretty top notch.

Soldier Blade could use another BG layer before it could use better audio


Really, what should have been done, is the Super Grafx should have been the PC Engine, and the audio should have been handled outside of the CPU.

Though I think they just banked on the CD audio carrying them into the 90s, and for the most part, it did.

[TurboXray]

 Two pages of drama related stuff... Look, this is what I'm actually trying to avoid. It's not that I give a crap about you or about what drama or shit you get involved in. I could careless about what you think you know and what your opinions are. I care about this PCE forum. You are not the forum, just a single member. We can't and don't get along, a plain and simple fact. Who cares why. It's irrelevant because it's not going to be fixed. I'm trying to execute some self control and avoid turning threads on this forum into a shit storm of back and fourth flaming war between. Nobody else cares. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure people are sick of seeing it. I'm not going to setup any ignore button. It won't solve any problems. When I see your posts, I tend to skip right by them. When they're directed at me, it's not so easy. I can only ignore your tone and insults towards me for so long. I'm not a kid and I'm not your friend, so you don't get the luxury of talking to me like that - like it's just nothing. I'm not overly sensitive. I have friends in RL that I give/take shit way more than that. It's matter that we have history and it always comes down to and devolves into retarded back and fourth flaming/bashing shit 'cause neither one of us likes to back down and we both take it personally (regardless if you admit it or not). I don't want it and I'm pretty sure no one else here wants it. So I'm asking you, avoid replying to me. Avoid any conversation with me. It's that simple. And I'll keep doing the same.

 This thread is derailed enough. We said our shit, so there's no reason to continue this here. If you REALLY have something so damn important to say to me, PM me.
. 

[spenoza]

The SuperGrafx is a bit beefy. Not sure the PCE needed more sprites, necessarily. Sure, more would be better, but... Yeah, a GPU with a second background layer, a separate audio controller, and more CPU RAM would have made the system quite a lot more capable. Not sure what additional cost would have been incurred, though. I consider the minimal CPU RAM the single biggest hardware flaw in the system. There is no other factor which impairs the system more, IMO. I wonder if the presence of more weird graphical effects (various warping effects, software scaling, and fake 3D perspective shifts) in SNES and MD games is due in part to both increased RAM and to the CPU not having to share cycles with audio functions.

[FraGMarE]

The SuperGrafx is a bit beefy. Not sure the PCE needed more sprites, necessarily. Sure, more would be better, but... Yeah, a GPU with a second background layer, a separate audio controller, and more CPU RAM would have made the system quite a lot more capable. Not sure what additional cost would have been incurred, though. I consider the minimal CPU RAM the single biggest hardware flaw in the system. There is no other factor which impairs the system more, IMO. I wonder if the presence of more weird graphical effects (various warping effects, software scaling, and fake 3D perspective shifts) in SNES and MD games is due in part to both increased RAM and to the CPU not having to share cycles with audio functions.

I've never really considered the lack of work RAM a big problem with the PCE.  That RAM space, really only had three practical uses, all of which can be worked around, pretty easily.

a.) Storage of decompressed graphic data.  Sometimes to reduce ROM size (and cartridge costs), Genesis and SNES games would store compressed graphic data in ROM, and decompress it to work RAM so that data could be called up quickly into VRAM when needed.  The solution to this is to either decompress graphic data on-the-fly (slower), or simply store the data in ROM uncompressed (fast, but uses more ROM space).

b.) Self-modifying code.  Sometimes, depending on the situation, code is faster and more efficient if it can modify itself to a degree.  With more work RAM it's possible to store more self-modifying code.  As a programmer, you'd have more options.  Especially if you're used to making self-modifying code.  The solution would be to simply code everything from the ground up, using static code.  Or at least keep the self-modifying code to 8KB or less.  Really not a huge deal, ask any of the PCE programmers here.

c.) Storage of variables, tables and other small structures that can be changed (this kind of ties in with b.) at any time.  Some kinds of games use more variables than others.  Shooters and platformers, for example, don't really need a lot of variables because the code is pretty straightforward.  RPGs and adventure games, on the other hand, use a lot of this stuff to store things like current HP, XP, MP for both players and enemies, etc.  Generally 8KB is still PLENTY for these variables.  I'm sure there's some workaround for this that one of the programmers here could enlighten us on.  Compression perhaps?

[Samurai Ghost]

That sunset riders mockup is a bonermaker.

Yes, very much so. Dammit!!

[soop]

That sunset riders mockup is a bonermaker.

Yes, very much so. Dammit!!

QFT.  I saw it before I read the explanation and my brain did a flip

[Arkhan Asylum]

BEHOLD: Tiny font.

stuff

1) my posts towards you were taken as hostility towards you due to our past.  My bad. Sorry.  That wasn't my intent because most of our past battles are from IRC and relate to things noone here really cares about anyways.  I didn't know it was your post until AFTER I'd read it.  I was hoping it was RegalSin, to be honest.  Neither of you have forum avatars, so I got excited.  You don't post often enough for me to think it's your post.
2) We could get along. Get past the previous crap. Stop being convinced I am out to get you and want to get at your throat.  There would've been no drama if you hadn't complained, and had simply discussed, like everyone else.  You know people replied to my posts directed at you, right? So, it's not like there wasn't crap to be talked about.  You know damn well if my posts would have been from someone else besides me, you would have taken the time to reply and defend your stance. 
3) The ignore button already exists. Click my name and press the button if you don't want to read my posts.  I'm not going to stop replying to you.  I'll make sure when I reply, I keep it safe so you or others don't think I'm trying to piss in your cheerios because I don't like you.
4) I'm glad you care about the PCE forum.  Stop removing your accounts so your legacy is left behind in one piece, not 4.
5) Go skim through some of the posts that are "drama" and see all the stuff you missed about the PCE.  Like sort-of intra-note timbre control.  There's some neat shit you can do with Squirrel and you're missing out on it.
6) Saying things like "what you think you know", are things that start a lot of these problems.
You're guilty of being overly harsh and condescending to people who disagree with you as well. 

What would people say to a Bayou Billy style game on the PCE.

"The Adventures of Swamp Steve" ?

[Mishran]

What would people say to a Bayou Billy style game on the PCE.

"The Adventures of Swamp Steve" ?

Misadventure of Jambalaya Jack?

Base it on a shrimp that just escaped from a Louisiana kitchen and fights insects, gaters, and imbred hillbillies in an attempt to make it back to the ocean and reunite with his family.

Stupid, I know. Just something that randomly popped in my head. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

lol. wow.

THE ADVENTURES OF GUMBO GARY.

[OldRover]

I think the biggest missed opportunity on the PCE was...

...Arkhan and Tom trying to make a game together. Imagine the lulz.

[OldRover]

As for the Ark vs Tom thing... the way I see it, Tom started the mess this time. You both have started so much shit between each other over the years that my wife thinks you two are secretly in love with each other.

[OldRover]

Oh and btw... Ark's right on this one. But then again, he usually is right on stuff he talks about. Just because he does it by taking a steel wool to someone's face, doesn't mean his point is less accurate.

[soop]

lol. wow.

THE ADVENTURES OF GUMBO GARY.

Hahahahah

[nectarsis]

Rovers edit button's broken I see lol

[Arkhan Asylum]

Rovers edit button's broken I see lol

SOPA deleted it!

[BigusSchmuck]

Rovers edit button's broken I see lol

SOPA deleted it!

Just like they killed Mega Upload. Oh wait..

[FraGMarE]

Dark Seal 1 and 2!!!  The PCE/TG16 didn't really have a decent iso-angle adventure game.  The arcade hardware for Dark Seal 1/2 was based on the Hu62C80 too, iirc.

A version of Black Tiger would have been nice too... oh wait, we got Black Tiger.  It just had cutesy graphics slapped on top with fruits and nuts and was renamed Son Son II.  hehe

[Arkhan Asylum]

Yea man, iso-games are lacking.

I like iso games when they don't suck.

Spectrum ones suck.   an Arcus odyssey like game would have been tits-on-toast.

[FraGMarE]

Yea man, iso-games are lacking.

I like iso games when they don't suck.

Spectrum ones suck.   an Arcus odyssey like game would have been tits-on-toast.

Yea, go look up Dark Seal 1/2.  They're legit as fuck.  They're like Cadash, except iso.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Oh, I know.  I play them shits in Mame all the time.

There is another I can't think of that would have ruled. I think it had sorceror in the name.

also, Gaiapolis would have been one badass Arcade CD game.  that game is <3

[FraGMarE]

Oh, I know.  I play them shits in Mame all the time.

There is another I can't think of that would have ruled. I think it had sorceror in the name.

also, Gaiapolis would have been one badass Arcade CD game.  that game is <3

Yea, so would a SuperGrafx conversion of Osman, the spiritual successor to Strider.  Or hell, at least a decent version of Strider for any of the PCE platforms!  The one we got on Arcade CD was pretty underwhelming.  30fps?  Screwed up player colors?  Slightly delayed jump response?  NO BG AT ALL FOR SOME PARTS?!?!  *swing and a miss*

There was a 6-button sidescrolling beater by Kaneko called Shadow Force in the arcade that would have been nice on the TG16.  For that matter, the arcade version of Battletoads was *awesome* and ran at the PCE's native res mode of 512x224.  I think EA had the license on that though.

[Arkhan Asylum]

they didnt even pick up the bat for that one, lol

[FraGMarE]

Sometimes I almost wonder if hack fixing some of these little gameplay mechanic blunders in some games that make them frustrating instead of fun would be worthwhile.  The jump delay in the HuCard/CD Altered Beast for example.  You crouch down for like a full half second before you actually take to the air.  In ACD, there's a similar problem with "jump lag".  Or how doable it would be to hack Raiden so you instantly respawn instead of start back at a checkpoint.  Simple little hacks like that would actually increase the replay value of these games, simply because it makes them more enjoyable.  As it stands, with the aforementioned games, I usually end up wanting to toss the controller.

[OldRover]

Rovers edit button's broken I see lol

Edit buttons are for making edits. Nothing I said needed editing.

[Arkhan Asylum]

BUT YOU COMITED PARTY FOUL DOBLE POTS.

/geralds.

[FraGMarE]

Yea, i just checked the Altered Beast jump timing in the arcade version.  There is *zero* jump lag.  you press jump and in one 60hz frame tick, you make a crouch animation in mid-air, the very next frame tick, you're moving upwards.  The HuCard Altered Beast, you're crouched for probably a good .4 second before you actually jump.  the CD version is a little less, but still way too much to not be frustrating.

[NecroPhile]

Misadventure of Jambalaya Jack  Pepe the King Prawn?

Fixed that for ya.

[OldRover]

BUT YOU COMITED PARTY FOUL DOBLE POTS.

/geralds.

I DUN GIV A PHUX.

[Arkhan Asylum]

IS THAT CAUB YOU WNAT MOAR COMTINTS?

[OldRover]

IS THAT CAUB YOU WNAT MOAR COMTINTS?

I STIL DUN GIV A FUX.

[Arkhan Asylum]

IS OK I GIVE EM FOAR YOU

[Bernie]

Yall are funny.  lol

[shubibiman]

Gotzendiener is an ISO game.

[CrackTiger]

Gotzendiener is an ISO game.

Arkhan said that he likes them when they don't suck. 

[NecroPhile]

Arkhan said that he likes them when they don't suck. 

Ark will agree with me that Göẗzëndïënër does not suck!

[Arkhan Asylum]

Goats in Diner is awesome.  Whoever disagrees can get hit by the A-Train ... ... III!

[Tatsujin]

ror, tis haev beecam teh most däerpy sred of all tiem!

[Arkhan Asylum]

ror, tis haev beecam teh most däerpy sred of all tiem!

TEH COMTINAST IS STORNG WIHT TIS OEN

[Tatsujin]

[RegalSin]

Göẗzëndïënër

was the Diablo generation before Diablo came out, you can zoom in on the action,
and wander around in a prince of persia like setting.
Plus thier is cut scenes.

What is stopping the game from being fun, is the SIMS stylist/Diablo/Shadowrun look it has. That has been done to death. However this game is an earlier game.

I can still have fun with it.......like playing Resident Evil.
Resident Evil was only fun because of never knowing what was behind the next door. Just like Resident Evil, with all the puzzles it can get annoying.

I feel like....oh their we go it was right their. I just had to move that, oh look.

[esteban]

BK ON TPK: folks who are anti-arpeggio can SCK MY LFT 1

[Arkhan Asylum]

BK ON TPK: folks who are anti-arpeggio can SCK MY LFT 1

sock your lift one?

[esteban]

BK ON TPK: folks who are anti-arpeggio can SCK MY LFT 1

sock your lift one?

PRCSLY. BTCH.