MSR *WILL* be finished, come hell or high water... hell more likely.

incrediblehark · 03/17/2012, 12:44 AM

Thats awesome! but I'm a little out of the loop, Valkyrie Midnight? sounds interesting...

As for Neutopia III, you guys going to make it on Hucard like the other 2?

OldRover · 03/17/2012, 01:40 AM

Quote from: incrediblehark on 03/17/2012, 12:44 AMThats awesome! but I'm a little out of the loop, Valkyrie Midnight? sounds interesting...

No one really knows about Valkyrie Midnight yet. Shhhhh...

lol

Quote from: incrediblehark on 03/17/2012, 12:44 AMAs for Neutopia III, you guys going to make it on Hucard like the other 2?

No, it's a CD game... it's too large for hucard. The game world is several times the size of Neutopia II's, and you're not limited to just one main character... you have a choice of four different characters to play as, and each one has their own unique story and side-quests. The basic gameplay mechanics remain intact, but enemies are smarter (especially bosses), the storyline is deeper and more involved (and notably darker too), and now there are free-scrolling areas a la LttP.

ParanoiaDragon · 03/17/2012, 04:16 AM

Not to mention cd music not unlike what Hudson did for Dungeon Explorer 2(not that my stuff is as good, but, in the same vein) & we plan to have cinemas(once again, think DE2, though, it would be a different style of art obviously).

esteban · 03/17/2012, 09:22 AM

Quote from: OldRover on 03/17/2012, 01:40 AM
Quote from: incrediblehark on 03/17/2012, 12:44 AMAs for Neutopia III, you guys going to make it on Hucard like the other 2?
No, it's a CD game... it's too large for hucard. The game world is several times the size of Neutopia II's, and you're not limited to just one main character... you have a choice of four different characters to play as, and each one has their own unique story and side-quests. The basic gameplay mechanics remain intact, but enemies are smarter (especially bosses), the storyline is deeper and more involved (and notably darker too), and now there are free-scrolling areas a la LttP.

arromdee · 03/18/2012, 01:55 AM

I suspect that producing Neutopia 3 is likely to lead to a lawsuit, or at least a request from lawyers that may mean you'll have to destroy anything you make. Neutopia is a trademark, and since the Neutopia games are sold on the Wii Virtual Console the trademark is still in active use.

OldRover · 03/18/2012, 02:12 AM

Neutopia III was started long before the trademark was re-established. I would love to see them pursue legal action against us... that would be one hell of a publicity boost for us.

ParanoiaDragon · 03/18/2012, 02:16 AM

If they come banging down the door after people making a few hundred copies who are making 0 profit, then we'll just change it into a spiritual sequal. It's not a series like say...Cosmic Fantasy or Ys, where characters from previous games are in it. Since each game is it's own epoch. The second game only had 2 character's from the 1st, Dirth & Jazeta. Everything else was fresh material. So if there's any characters that are in N3 that are from previous games, it should be easy to change their names, but still keep the story the same.

Also, I was thinking, I don't know much about trademarks or whatever, but, I think the names Neutopia I & II are trademarked, but not the Neutopia name in general

Even still, when we're done, I'd love to sell it to Konami so that they can release it on the VC & PS3. Actually, I think N1 & 2 are on PS3 as well. Or maybe it's just the first one so far?

This makes me think of when Hasbro almost lost the name "Megatron"! Trademarks only last so long unless they are renewed.

arromdee · 03/18/2012, 03:10 AM

Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 03/18/2012, 02:16 AMIf they come banging down the door after people making a few hundred copies who are making 0 profit, then we'll just change it into a spiritual sequal.

They can come bang down the door after you've made a couple of hundred copies but before you've sold them. You will then be out the money it takes to make those copies. You don't have to be making profit for them to come after you.

As for being renewed, as I pointed out, putting the games on the VC effectively does mean the trademarks are renewed. You might be able to get away with saying that Neutopia 3 was announced before the games made it to VC, but ultimately using that as your defense is still going to require paying for a lawyer.

GohanX · 03/18/2012, 03:33 AM

Quote from: guest on 03/15/2012, 03:32 PMwell they have to. that's how it works lol.

otherwise they make a defective disc, and piss everyone off, and have to fix it.

and that would be a waste of money and resources for the company.

I've done a little CD duplicating on a much smaller scale, but what I mean is that many people would just check to see that they had a perfect 1:1 copy, and wouldn't notice or care that there was a "buzzing" track. The attitude would be "If a track if fucked up it's their own damn fault for sending a bad master disc, I made a perfect copy." Obviously this is terrible customer service, but that's how a lot of places operate.

ParanoiaDragon · 03/18/2012, 04:26 AM

Quote from: arromdee on 03/18/2012, 03:10 AM
Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 03/18/2012, 02:16 AMIf they come banging down the door after people making a few hundred copies who are making 0 profit, then we'll just change it into a spiritual sequal.
They can come bang down the door after you've made a couple of hundred copies but before you've sold them. You will then be out the money it takes to make those copies. You don't have to be making profit for them to come after you.

That I know, it really depends on how desperate they are really. Maybe Konami is hurting for $, I don't know. I know that alot of big companies really just don't care about people with copywrited or trademarked material. It's usually when those people get big that the companies start to attack. Though, it does seem like people in general are getting more & more sue happy.

Then a spiritual sequal it is, Neutopia 3, is no more.

Or maybe we could just release it for free. That means no physical copy, which for me, is a big bummer, but still, it'll be nice to have for people to play no matter what form it takes. I haven't heard of anyone getting shot down for making new Mario, Metroid, Zelda, etc. for free, they're all over the net, & have been for years. The only one I can think of that got shot down, was an N64 version of Chrono Trigger IIRC?

arromdee · 03/18/2012, 10:32 AM

They can always say "we're going to sue you for what you already did in the past, unless you agree to this settlement, which obliges you to destroy all copies of the game whether renamed or not".

TurboXray · 03/18/2012, 10:49 AM

QuoteOr maybe we could just release it for free.

Unfortunately, that won't necessarily stop a C&D :/

QuoteI haven't heard of anyone getting shot down for making new Mario, Metroid, Zelda, etc.

I have. Usually rom hacks are exempt from this, but there was even a famous Chrono Trigger rom hack that got a C&D because it gained so much popularity (it wasn't even finished, either).

OldRover · 03/18/2012, 01:22 PM

A C&D doesn't mean shit. It's all bark with no bite. And dragging an indie into the courtroom for something so petty makes the company out to be a laughing stock in the industry. They cannot bully me.

CrackTiger · 03/18/2012, 01:24 PM

Quote from: TurboXray on 03/18/2012, 10:49 AM
QuoteOr maybe we could just release it for free.
Unfortunately, that won't necessarily stop a C&D :/

QuoteI haven't heard of anyone getting shot down for making new Mario, Metroid, Zelda, etc.
I have. Usually rom hacks are exempt from this, but there was even a famous Chrono Trigger rom hack that got a C&D because it gained so much popularity (it wasn't even finished, either).

Sega also stopped the free Streets of Rage game.

Neutopia III would be diffetent that the CT and SoR sequels, in that it wouldn't use any assets from published games. I do think that legal action is more likely now that Konami is involved.

I think that it would be best to to code name the project Neutopia III and just release it with the subtitle as the official title.

_Paul · 03/18/2012, 01:28 PM

Call it Newtopia.

arromdee · 03/18/2012, 01:29 PM

No company will be made a laughing stock in the industry for suing fans. They may be a laughingstock in a few circles on the Internet, but that's all. It's not going to hurt them in any real way. Do you really think that Square Enix was made a laughingstock for shutting down Chrono Resurrection? Maybe to a few people's friends, but it certainly doesn't hurt their profits, and the stockholders don't care and probably would approve if they had even heard of it.

And yes, they can bully you. Unless you're going to refuse a court order and get arrested and sent off to jail. The whole point of jail is to bully the person being sent to jail, and you're not immune to it.

spenoza · 03/18/2012, 01:44 PM

I think the point is that they would only be on the hook for the title, nothing else, and in that case they can change the title. They already said they're not using any assets from the original game, so there's no copyright infringement. If all that's going on it a trademark issue, the worst that will happen is they have to change the name.

Trademark issues have a lot more graduated path of resolution, legally speaking, than copyright and patent claims.

_Paul · 03/18/2012, 01:47 PM

Call it HuTOPIA and put it on card.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/18/2012, 02:24 PM

I hope you all realize its the copyright that you are really worried about, and those last for a long ass time. Trademarks establish something used within trade, like a logo and name. Aetherbyte is trademarked. It's my mark used during trade. You don't trademark the contents of the game, and you don't trademark the word itself. You trademark the logo. The appearance and everything have to be documented and if you start using the word in a different style, you have to get a new trademark.

Neutopia's trademark being active is something entirely different. This would be an issue if you release something with NEUTOPIA all over it. It wouldn't even matter what you release, as long as it says Neutopia. In this case, it looks like you planned on using the Neutopia logo, so you're hosed right there. It's possible the trademark never actually ended. There'd be what a 2 year time frame where it may have been inactive and you announced Neutopia 3? For all we all know, they could have renewed it. I see it was renewed in 1993, so that makes it good til at least 2003. They probably renewed it. It's pocket change for them to protect their stuff.

You've been infringing on the copyright with Neutopia 3 since you announced it, as it never actually expired.

If they decide to pursue it, you can claim "they can't bully me" all you want. However, they have the funds and manpower to ream your ass open wider than Goatse's if they want to, as you are messing with their copyright and trademark all in one package.

A C&D is like a warning. "Stop doing this before we fuck you up". I'd consider getting one of those before getting raped a blessing.

Publicity wouldn't likely benefit you anyways, as you'd be so fucked financially that you'd have nowhere to go with it.

Court isn't free. Especially if you lose.

and that's if you even get publicity, This isn't Square Soft, and you're not jockin' Chrono Trigger. You'd have to do the work yourself to get people to notice probably. Post all over DigitPress and shit until enough people notice.

but even then, who's to say people outside of PCEFX would even give two shits.

OldRover · 03/18/2012, 03:35 PM

Quote from: arromdee on 03/18/2012, 01:29 PMNo company will be made a laughing stock in the industry for suing fans.

Yeah they will. Being able to bully other companies is a big deal to corporate America, and getting the proverbial middle finger flipped at you and then being forced into court means that you don't have the savvy to manipulate others... and that makes you weak, and a laughing stock. And it's even moreso knowing the fact that it's Konami who holds the puppet strings now... they're notorious for their bully tactics and legal threats.

Quote from: arromdee on 03/18/2012, 01:29 PMAnd yes, they can bully you. Unless you're going to refuse a court order and get arrested and sent off to jail. The whole point of jail is to bully the person being sent to jail, and you're not immune to it.

Let them take us to court. It'll be fun. Then they will have to prove not only infringement but also profit loss. Also, there is no copyright infringement... we're not actually using any of their copyrighted work. The trademark? Sure... but if push comes to shove, we just change the name and there ain't a lick they can do against us.

Don't think I haven't already fully researched all of this over the years.

_Paul · 03/18/2012, 03:47 PM

I bet Rainbow Arts were just as confident when they released The Great Giana Sisters, which was on the shelf for all of about 5 minutes before Nintendo stepped in. Why tempt fate?

OldRover · 03/18/2012, 04:03 PM

Yes I know, they were bullied off the market by Nintendo. Nintendo also has a long history of doing such things.

OldRover · 03/18/2012, 04:05 PM

Anyone remember the Fighter's History case? Data East flipped off Capcom, it got dragged into court, and Capcom got their collective asses kicked.

spenoza · 03/18/2012, 04:39 PM

Quote from: The Old Rover on 03/18/2012, 04:05 PMAnyone remember the Fighter's History case? Data East flipped off Capcom, it got dragged into court, and Capcom got their collective asses kicked.

Data East was a larger company than Rainbow Arts with greater financial resources, but then again, I do agree that trademark issues are less likely to hurt as much and easier to mitigate quickly and easily. The Rainbow Arts case was a while back and I haven't seen any cases of the sort in a long time, short of the Tetris look-and-feel C&Ds. Konami/Hudson couldn't argue look and feel for Neutopia because they pretty much ripped off Zelda and the like when they made it.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/18/2012, 06:09 PM

I don't think it is a good idea to tempt fate and throw yourself and everyone who'd be working on Neutopia 3 under the bus. "They can't bully me" is a crock. Yes they can. You're not in any position to defend yourself if they bring up a lawsuit. None of us are. We're dipshits doing this in our spare time. You lack the manpower and financial standing to go toe to toe with them in court. It'd be like bringing a nerf gun to a tactical nuke fight.

They can hose you down if you even imply it's a Neutopia sequel. Change the name. Don't imply it's related to Neutopia in any way. Let the players imply it. It'll be everyones secret.

Golvellius and Neutopia got away with being released because they turned out to be different enough that suing them wouldn't do anything. Golvellius had all those sideways action scenes, Neutopia had well, way better features than Zelda did.. including USEFUL TALKING....

Giana Sister's got fucked because of this:

See that grafitti? Yeah that's them saying "Hey look we ripped your shit off Nintendo, and now we're giving you the finger". Add in the barely different sprites and map layouts, and yep, you get hosed.

If you put this out as Neutopia 3, and say it's a sequel, you're asking to get fucked.

Global Games Company got sued out of existence by Games Workshop for Legions of Steel and PlanetStorm being so similar to Space Hulk and Warhammer 40k, respectively.

Sure you may get publicity, and you may feel like they are being made a laughing stock for bullying you, but, who's going to get the last laugh when you're flailing around dealing with court fees and all of that shit? It sure as hell won't be you laughing, lol.

I'd just change the name and make sure you use from scratch artwork.

OldRover · 03/18/2012, 06:15 PM

As Nintendo's first third-party developer, I do believe that the reason the Zelda/Neutopia bit was never pursued in court was because Hudson was still playing grab-ass with top Nintendo execs at the time. Had it been anyone other than Hudson, I think Nintendo would have shit a golden brick and used it to pay their lawyers to sue the "enemy" out of existence. The original Neutopia is such a blatant ripoff of the original Legend Of Zelda that it's not even funny... so if Nintendo can bully Rainbow Arts off the market for a game that is merely inspired by another game, then imagine what they would try to a company who directly ripped off an entire game concept...

The Tetris Company is pretty damn hardcore about going after lookalikes, and they are fiercely protective of the name "Tetris". I'd be more worried about them than Konami/Hudson.

OldRover · 03/18/2012, 06:19 PM

And no, they can't bully me. They can only try. Again, our game doesn't use ANY of their IP. AT ALL. So there are no copyright violations whatsoever. Aside from the name, they have absolutely nothing, so if we simply change the name, they have zero legal ground. Of course, if we can't have it as "Neutopia III", there is no actual point in producing it, so it's an all-or-nothing deal.

OldRover · 03/18/2012, 06:27 PM

Of course, people are also forgetting one other detail of this... once N3 is underway and we have a working game engine going, I'm going to contact Konami personally and work out a deal with them. Could go either way, but they're not an unfriendly company (not like Namco... ugh) and they have no problem sniffing out new revenue sources, especially if it means less work for them.

TheClash603 · 03/18/2012, 06:32 PM

Well, there are examples that go both ways. For example, Abobo's Big Adventure is still up, and this game steals every sprite on Earth.

http://abobosbigadventure.com/

If this game can stay alive (though, I suppose there is the "parody" aspect), then I figure anything can.

arromdee · 03/18/2012, 06:41 PM

Quote from: OldRover on 03/18/2012, 03:35 PMLet them take us to court. It'll be fun. Then they will have to prove not only infringement but also profit loss.

This is untrue.

OldRover · 03/18/2012, 06:43 PM

Meh, fuckit... we'll just shelve N3 and forget about it. We have other games to make anyway.

Bernie · 03/18/2012, 06:56 PM

Quote from: OldRover on 03/18/2012, 06:43 PMMeh, fuckit... we'll just shelve N3 and forget about it. We have other games to make anyway.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Makes Bernie very sad.....

lord_cack · 03/18/2012, 07:11 PM

Off topic still, but I think that a game in the vein of Neutopia would be just as cool as Neutopia. Of course, I have another action/RPG concept (well two but I haven't fleshed the second one out much yet) that would be great to work on....

Call it whatever you want, the graphics so far are nice, the concept and story are great, the game will be awesome.

On the topic of copywrite/patent infringement and how far a company will go to protect its money/assets.... one word, one company, look it up if you don't know: Monsanto (evil corporate bastards) Two different worlds but same possibility.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/18/2012, 07:36 PM

Quote from: TheClash603 on 03/18/2012, 06:32 PMWell, there are examples that go both ways. For example, Abobo's Big Adventure is still up, and this game steals every sprite on Earth.

http://abobosbigadventure.com/

If this game can stay alive (though, I suppose there is the "parody" aspect), then I figure anything can.

This is a free, non profit game.

Golvellius was never persued by Nintendo, and Compile certainly wasn't playing grab ass with them.

Make it as a new game with a new title. The second you release a Neutopia III, or imply that a game you're making is a sequel, you open the flood gates.

ParanoiaDragon · 03/18/2012, 09:14 PM

Technically the official name is Gorrilla's Eat Potato Chips, so, that's what it will say on the manual, tray insert, cd, & title screen, so...I'm not seeing the problem?

I'm kidding ofcoarse, but yeah, if we can strike a deal with Konami, cool. If we can't, then it'll be a different game.

Keranu · 03/18/2012, 09:18 PM

I like the idea of releasing N3 under a different name. It would be like a rip off of a Zelda rip off

.

PCEngineHell · 03/19/2012, 01:51 PM

Personally I wouldn't discuss any new project until the current one is in peoples mail boxes or on retail shelves. As it so happens though, if you were going to do something, maybe it would be about time to do something on the system no one else has done prior, or do a new spin on things, like a game similar to Sweet Home, but with Zelda/Dungeon Explorer play mechanics. This would surely be a project the hardware would be more then capable of handling, turbotap and all too, and you could take advantage of the cd-rom tech to do some decent gritty horror scenes, etc. You could in fact have it be a game that requires a minimum of 3 players, and one player cant attack, only heal the other members or unlock doors or chest, so the party has to be aggressive and also defensive of this one player.

jlued686 · 03/19/2012, 02:25 PM

No matter what you wind up calling Neutopia 3, I'm going to Photoshop an alternate cover with the Neutopia 3 logo. You can call it, "Jazetta Junior's Jumbo Journey" and I'm still going to call it Neutopia 3.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/19/2012, 02:28 PM

Jazetta Juniors Jankass Jollygag

CrackTiger · 03/19/2012, 06:31 PM

Quote from: Keranu on 03/18/2012, 09:18 PMI like the idea of releasing N3 under a different name. It would be like a rip off of a Zelda rip off .

Except that Neutopia III isn't even a Neutopia rip off the way that Neutopia was a Zelda rip off. The title and a couple names are the only possible legal connection.

meka · 03/20/2012, 03:54 PM

Neutopia is not a zelda rip off, then every fps would be a wolfenstein rip off.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/20/2012, 03:55 PM

Quote from: meka on 03/20/2012, 03:54 PMNeutopia is not a zelda rip off, then every fps would be a wolfenstein rip off.

You mean a Quake ripoff.

and, Neutopia is clearly a Zelda ripoff, except it doesn't suck like Zelda 1.

Bernie · 03/20/2012, 03:57 PM

Quote from: guest on 03/20/2012, 03:55 PM
Quote from: meka on 03/20/2012, 03:54 PMNeutopia is not a zelda rip off, then every fps would be a wolfenstein rip off.
You mean a Quake ripoff.

and, Neutopia is clearly a Zelda ripoff, except it doesn't suck like Zelda 1.

HEY!!! What say you.... Zelda 1 suck??

I am soooo let down right now sir.....

CrackTiger · 03/20/2012, 04:38 PM

The first Zelda is the only one I really like.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/20/2012, 10:49 PM

The first zelda is boring and blehhhh.

I much preferred Zelda II

Mishran · 03/20/2012, 11:08 PM

Ocarina of Time FTW!

lord_cack · 03/21/2012, 05:08 AM

Quote from: guest on 03/20/2012, 10:49 PMI much preferred Zelda II

Indeed, especially when conpared to the rest of the series. This title REALLY sticks out as something special.

meka · 03/21/2012, 06:07 AM

No I mean Wolfenstein 3D because it is generally credited with creating the genre proper and the basic archetype upon which subsequent titles were based and I agree that zelda was not the best game.

OldRover · 03/21/2012, 07:15 AM

There are way too many parallels between LoZ and Neutopia to ignore the fact that Neutopia is at least heavily inspired by LoZ... everything from the gameplay mechanics to even the storyline are too similar to ignore. Rescue princess: check. Win 8 artifacts hidden in dungeons: check. Overhead stabby gameplay: check. Use bombs to blow holes in walls: check. Hell, even the details are usually identical. The main differences between Neutopia and LoZ are that LoZ has a cohesive overworld map but Neutopia is broken into zones (of course, this was changed in Neutopia II), and they have different starting heart values. A few items change function (namely the rings, which are armor in LoZ but become one-shot magic items in Neutopia), Neutopia adds a few items (ie. wings of return, charmed compass, book of revival, falcon shoes, etc) and loses some items (ie. raft), but some core items merely change appearance rather than function (ie. ladder/rainbow drop) and some startup values are identical (ie. 8 bomb starting maximum).

It's so much a ripoff that it hurts. You'd have to have some pretty serious cognitive dissonance to deny it.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/21/2012, 08:21 AM

Quote from: meka on 03/21/2012, 06:07 AMNo I mean Wolfenstein 3D because it is generally credited with creating the genre proper and the basic archetype upon which subsequent titles were based and I agree that zelda was not the best game.

but really, Doom is what created the genre proper, since it had lighting/depth.

and Quake finished creating it, with actual aiming, and 3D nonsense.

They're all from the same guy though, so fuck it! lol