Turbo Duo...What went wrong?

[turbokon]

The pce/tg16 is like NES except with better sound, more colors and bigger sprites. It's almost like 16-bit, hmmmm  .
Edit: I say it's better then just a slightly improvement over then the nes.

[BigT]

To expand upon the "too late" and "too expensive" thoughts, we can also look at it this way: The Duo took one product that nobody was buying (TG16) and combined it with another product nobody was buying (TGCD) and expected people to buy it...for a premium. Yes, it was "only" $100 more than the SNES (at least for a time), but it's still $100 more than the "it" item.

I think we already established this. By the time the Duo came out, the SNES was 99.99 for a core model. And at most 150.00 for a model bundled with two controllers and Super Mario World. So it was 2 to 3 times as expensive depending on which bundle you bought.

Yeah, and that was a huge difference at that time.  I was in my early teens and chose to get an SNES because:
* It was a much easier sell to the parents at that price.
* The SNES had SF2 and Mario as well as various EA sports titles... if figured that if I got a Duo, I would be missing out on a large segment of games.
* I already had a TG16, but could never afford the CD attachment... I think that by the time the Duo came out, the war was over... realistically, NEC should have been much more aggressive with pricing from the start.

When the Duo came out, they had no position of power... so their only small chance would have been to compete aggressively on price... $199 would have been doable and then they could have hoped that the games caught on so that they could make it up on software sales... Bringing over SF2 and Dracula X would have helped as well... also, if they wanted to brand it as a more mature system, more sports games would have been nice (i.e., a deal with EA - John Madden Duo Football showed that the system could handle these quite well!)...

[kazekirifx]

When the Duo came out, they had no position of power... so their only small chance would have been to compete aggressively on price... $199 would have been doable and then they could have hoped that the games caught on so that they could make it up on software sales...

I think they would have just lost more money then. As many here have been echoing, the battle had already been lost by the time the Duo was released. There was no point in taking on Nintendo or Sega. They could only hope for a respectable niche market of hardcore gamers at best. Their target was primarily people who already owned an SNES and/or Genesis, not kids who were trying to decide which one console to save their allowance money for. (Though I've known people out there who grew up with only Turbo hardware too. More power to them!)

There are lot of things TTi could have done better in marketing the Duo (especially regarding which games they should have released), but I have to agree with the direction they took regarding pricing and projected market penetration. In that respect I think they did what they could with the cards they had already been dealt.

[SignOfZeta]

The PCE is nothing but a slight improvement over the NES

Oh come on now. You make it sound so negative. The NES is a great system! OK, well, the NES is actually pretty terrible, honestly, but the PCE is like the ULTIMATE NES. That's not an insult, its a compliment. NES games are fun by design, but incredibly ugly and flickery. Its easier (for me) to have fun with something when the sprites are more than four colors and they aren't %50 flickered out %75 of the time. Example: most PCE shooters are very fun, most NES shooters are zero fun, yet there really isn't much separating them, fundamentally speaking.

Even from a technical perspective, the TG16 is pretty much half way between the NES era and the SNES era. Technically, historically, chronologically, aesthetically. Have you ever played a SNES game as crude as Keith Courage or Energy? I haven't. I know, you like Keith Courage and Energy, thats fine, but seriously....JUST LOOK AT THOSE GAMES. Are they more like NES or more like SNES? Honestly. No bullshit. If you saw Blue Blink for the first time today would you assume it was for Neo Geo or CPS2 because of how insanely great the 16-bit visuals are?

Come on. Its OK to wall yourself off into your own little world. We all do it a little every day to stay sane. The problem comes when you fail to admit/understand that this is what you are doing. China Warrior is shite. It just is.

The Tengai Makyou games have hilariously puny sprites. They just do. Its OK though! Overall the games still go toe to toe with the best the SFC had to offer (and obliterate the offerings on Mega Drive). That's why the PCE is fucking great!

and its library is entirely second rate, eh? Go fuck yourself.

See, this, also, isn't meant to be negative. I'm a huge fan of B-grade games. I usually don't play Doom, Elder Scrolls, Xenosaga, Modern Warfare, Grand Theft Auto, Donkey Kong Country, Just Dance, Morta Kombat...all that shit. There is a lot of charm and character in second rate titles. If Startling Odyssey had the budget of Final Fantasy it might have sold more units, but it just wouldn't have been the same. Ys is fun because instead of drilling through a million menus and raising chocobos you just slam into shit and watch the story go by. Once in a while I need that. Most of the time I need that.

However, most people don't see things this way. They want Super Mario Kart. The Duo doesn't have a single racing game that comes anywhere near Super Mario Kart. Don't be offended, in 1992 nobody else had made anything better either. Probably still haven't. Don't get pissed of and jealous and build a wall of psychotic denial just because Super Mario Kart is awesome. Appreciate it for what it is, fantastic...but does it have an RPG mode where you can say, "I did it dad!!!". No, it doesn't, so it doesn't do everything. So you need Final Lap Twin as well, or rather I need Final Lap Twin as well.

[soop]

But hey, we might not be here talking about the PC Engine if it wasn't an underdog here in the states!

Ah, I would.  As a kid, in this country, a lot of magazines focused on the GT as a portable rather than the PC Engine, and what I saw was mind-blowing in a very non-underdog way.

As for the NES... the NES is a great system.  There are some crap games, but for the most part, it's infused with a sense of adventure and fun.  I've some good memories of that system.

As for B-grade titles...  I'm sure there are some, but as someone that hates Mario Kart, I'd say there are more bad games on the SNES than on the PC Engine, and probably even less good titles on the SNES than the PC Engine.

But what Zeta is referring to as A-grade games, I think is a tad disingenious - the titles you refer to, and FFVII, are basically AAA platinum games, the kind that sell systems on their own, and the SNES does have more of these than the PC Engine does.  In fact it has more than most systems, and in a very clever way for the first time.

I just had a quick look through my collection, and if the fact that I play my PCE more than my SNES doesn't say enough, I think that if I compared some of my favorite SNES games to the PCE games (Kirby, Mario Land, Yoshi's island for example) There are very few games that can hold a candle to that level of polished design.

But if I compare ALL my SNES games to ALL my PCE games (and I'd like to think I have good taste, no duds) the PCE games generally shine through.

Make no mistake, the PC Engine has A-grade games, it just doesn't have many once-in-a-generation genre defining AAA titles.

[SignOfZeta]

Your grading system is more subtlety neuonced than mine.

[NecroPhile]

Oh come on now. You make it sound so negative. The NES is a great system! OK, well, the NES is actually pretty terrible, honestly, but the PCE is like the ULTIMATE NES. That's not an insult, its a compliment.

Give me a break; it's obvious you meant that as a dig, furthering your dismissal of the PCE as incomparable to the mighty SNES.  You're a SNERD - loud and proud and willing to dismiss anything that doesn't fit into your preconceived notions of what the PCE can do ("it can't do transparencies without flickering!").

NES games are fun by design, but incredibly ugly and flickery. Its easier (for me) to have fun with something when the sprites are more than four colors and they aren't %50 flickered out %75 of the time. Example: most PCE shooters are very fun, most NES shooters are zero fun, yet there really isn't much separating them, fundamentally speaking.

But there's a huge difference between PCE shooters and Genny/SNES shooters, right?  If the PCE is just a minor improvement over the NES, then what is the SNES with its substantially slower processor or the Genny with its slightly slower processor and washed out colors?  I guess the only thing that matters to a fanboy like yourself is that the PCE lacks mode 7, loads of reverb, and blast processing.

Even from a technical perspective, the TG16 is pretty much half way between the NES era and the SNES era. Technically, historically, chronologically, aesthetically. Have you ever played a SNES game as crude as Keith Courage or Energy? I haven't.

Never seen Ultraman, Pit Fighter, or Home Alone, eh?  Not that it matters, as only a fool would take some of the blandest looking games in the library and use that as an argument of what the system is capable.  Plus, how many latter day PCE games look as crude as K.C. or Energy?

I know, you like Keith Courage and Energy, thats fine, but seriously....JUST LOOK AT THOSE GAMES. Are they more like NES or more like SNES? Honestly. No bullshit.

You do know that I'm not Ark, right?  It's no secret that I think K.C. is bland and that Energy sucks.

Come on. Its OK to wall yourself off into your own little world. We all do it a little every day to stay sane. The problem comes when you fail to admit/understand that this is what you are doing. China Warrior is shite. It just is.

Yep, I'm still not Ark.  China Warrior is more of a great tech. demo. than anything else.

See, this, also, isn't meant to be negative. I'm a huge fan of B-grade games. I usually don't play Doom, Elder Scrolls, Xenosaga, Modern Warfare, Grand Theft Auto, Donkey Kong Country, Just Dance, Morta Kombat...all that shit. There is a lot of charm and character in second rate titles. If Startling Odyssey had the budget of Final Fantasy it might have sold more units, but it just wouldn't have been the same. Ys is fun because instead of drilling through a million menus and raising chocobos you just slam into shit and watch the story go by. Once in a while I need that. Most of the time I need that.

However, most people don't see things this way. They want Super Mario Kart. The Duo doesn't have a single racing game that comes anywhere near Super Mario Kart. Don't be offended, in 1992 nobody else had made anything better either. Probably still haven't. Don't get pissed of and jealous and build a wall of psychotic denial just because Super Mario Kart is awesome. Appreciate it for what it is, fantastic...but does it have an RPG mode where you can say, "I did it dad!!!". No, it doesn't, so it doesn't do everything. So you need Final Lap Twin as well, or rather I need Final Lap Twin as well.

Unlike you, I'm not stuck in denial about anything nor am I jealous.  I'll freely admit that the PCE has nothing like Super Mario Kart (nor a top notch brawler or a run and gun), but it certainly has A-grade titles (Gate of Thunder, Dracula X, Ys IV, etc.).

In conclusion: go fuck yourself.

[jlued686]

Wow. Hostile!

I see what Zeta's saying, and as a giant Turbo fanboy/nerd, I don't begrudge him any of it. In fact, I agree with a lot of it. I think Soop nailed it:

Make no mistake, the PC Engine has A-grade games, it just doesn't have many once-in-a-generation genre defining AAA titles.

This shouldn't turn into a fanboy "This console is better than that" argument. But I will say that Bonk is my favorite game of all time. Is it nearly as polished and brilliantly designed as Yoshi's Island? Absolutely not. But that's okay. I still love it.

[SamIAm]

I'll toss in a couple points from my perspective.

*It wouldn't have mattered if the Duo had Sonic AND Mario AND everything else. For the majority of gamers in the US (and, let's face it, the parents that funded them) a $300 console crossed the line. There was a perceived market value of video games in general, and it was $100 for a console and $50 for games. Nintendo and Sega would have given NEC hell no matter what. As it's been pointed out, even the Playstation, which IMO is perhaps the most perfectly executed console ever made and benefited from a maturing market, didn't take off until it got down to $200, and that was years later.

*None of the Japanese-only Duo titles would have made a big difference if they had been released here. They were too late, they weren't THAT amazing (sorry Dracula X), and most of them were in unpopular genres.

*1992 was just too late in general. Hindsight is 20/20, but I think the writing was on the wall. NEC had lost in the US by then, and that was just about that.

*To paraphrase Redlettermedia's Star Wars prequel trilogy reviews, I hesitate to even say what they should have done instead, because the answer is basically everything. Marketing, internal management, hardware, software, price...each one of these areas had a plethora of problems that kept the TG16/Duo down in the US.

*I love my Duo, but basically, I agree with SignOfZeta about the nature of the system and its library. Its best stuff gives it tremendous charm, and I'm awfully glad to have another flavor in my cabinet besides Nintendo and Sega. However, I feel absolutely no regret or sense of injustice about having bought an SNES in 1992.

[spenoza]

I think all the consoles sit pretty comfortably on a sliding scale if you look at their ability to push around colorful sprites and graphic elements. The SuperNES, being the most recent design, does have some of the most formidable capabilities. The PCE, being the earliest of the 16-bit generation, has the least formidable raw capabilities. Some PCE programmers were clearly capable of overcoming the PCE's limitations just as some were ill inclined to even try. This is the same on all platforms.

Really, what I think this all boils down to is that the public perceived the 16-bit generation as an extra background layer prompting vast hori and vert platformers to show off that free-floating background layer. The PCE didn't have an extra background layer and didn't have as many of those massive platformers with that extra background lurking behind. To most folks, that was case closed. If only the PCE had been capable of an incredible AAA title like Bubsy!

[CrackTiger]

The PCE had no "killer apps" in Japan. What it had was a very diverse library of B grade titles. Unfortunately Americans in the days before FFVII were still very reluctant to read in a video game, and also had not developed the lolicon scene enough to appreciate most of these titles. Example: try selling one of those shitty WWII or Arab killer fps games to people in Saudi Arabia. They just won't want it. Another factor is that the PCE started out strong, but the popularity trickled down as the games got more otaku-based and the hardware improved. In the US the TG-16 was never successful, so asking people to pay more for a derivative of a 3/4 year old machine that nobody gave a shit about to begin with...wasn't going to work. All of those B grade RPGs and sims in Japan worked with each other to solidify a very devoted fan base. The audience got smaller, but it also became way more hardcore. We didn't have that here.[/quote]
The PCE had killer apps, but not so many games that would be killer apps for Western players.

As for price...at the risk of conflicting with several hard core fans' reality distortion field, the Duo wasn't worth the money to most people. Bonk is not as technically impressive as Sonic the Hedgehog. The same can be said for Ys versus Chrono Trigger, Final Lap Twin versus Super Mario Kart, or Neutopia versus Zelda: A Link to the Past. Don't get me wrong, I actually did buy a US Duo in 1992. I loved it. I mainly bought it for the Japanese imports that none of my friends were interested in.

Unless you're only twenty years old and don't remember what it was like at the time, the Duo was a great value because it was also a CD player. Even by the time the Duo launched, I only knew of a few people my age who had any kind of CD player. Even when the CDX came out, I bought one immediately because it was the same price as the average discman.

Your game comparisons are funny though, just like that discussion on a French forum when someone compared a screen shot from Bonk's Adventure to one of the DKC sequels. Without commenting of FLT vs SMK, the Turbo games you mentioned are still technically superior in some ways to the games you comparedthem to. Just as they are not technically superior in others. Game mags started the trend of selective appreciation and so many people to this day are completely blind to various aspects in the favor of Turbo games. They just pick out anything that could favor either SNES or Genesis and ignore the rest.

The Duo was never anything like that. You show people the opening for Kabuki Den and they go "wow!". Then they see the game actually begin and they say, "Um...is this a NES? Why is the sprite so fucking small?" Lords to Thunder blew people's minds, but Ninja Spirit...did not.

Again, it sounds like you're unfamiliar with the 16-bit generation. Kabukiden was a FF style TM RPG. Those small sprites are better colored versions of SNES FF game sprites. FFIV and FFV are hard to distinquish from FFIII for Famicom. The main difference is the background art in battles. Pretty much every aspect of the aesthetics of FFIV/V was improved upon in Kabukiden, such as variety in background art, enemy animation, characters actually moving around in battles like FFVII, voice acting and animated portaits synced to those tiny sprites for all the FF style "cinematics" and so much more. It really makes SNES RPGs feel almost a generation behind. Even FFVII - FFIX lack voice acting and if I remember corretly, portaits.

I love the PCE because its like a NES, but with no flicker, way more color, and endless storage capacity. The Duo was the ultimate 8 bit system, but that's all it was. I love it specifically because of that, but most people don't. People who had been playing Comic Zone, F Zero, Mortal Kombat, etc were not impressed by Exile or Parasol Stars. And its not just the big time games, its the small stuff as well. Wild Guns...Wild Guns is really beautiful. I'm sure somebody can show me an bunch of screen shots and write out some tpechnical stuff about how Wild Guns could easily be done better on TG16, but it doesn't change the fact that it wasn't. Neither was FFVI (or FFIV, for that matter), Out of this World, Yoshi's Island, Virtua Racing, Phantasy Star IV, etc etc. I know you guys don't care about that stuff. That's why we are here. I know the SNES is "gay" or whatever, but that's irrelevant. What matters is that people won't pay twice as much for a system that appears to be half as powerful. They think Wonder Boy is fucking SHIT.

The CDROM was amazingly underutilized. It might as well have been a 1TD HD since you can only hold one microscopic portion of whats on the CD in memory at any given time and then play songs of the CD, usually really bad songs.

I just don't see how there is any way the Duo could have succeeded in 1992. American's simply weren't into that.


* Shove it up your ass, 3DO fans. Nobody wants your garage sale piece of shit system. The controller sucks and the library is terrible.

Can't comment further right now, but the SNES is more of a glorified NES than the PCE, with most games feature sparse and tiny sprites and often slowdown. Even hackers were able to faithfully reproduse Super Mario World on NES, but Hudson ported Bonk to NES themselves and it barely runs.

[SamIAm]

Can't comment further right now, but the SNES is more of a glorified NES than the PCE, with most games feature sparse and tiny sprites and often slowdown. Even hackers were able to faithfully reproduse Super Mario World on NES, but Hudson ported Bonk to NES themselves and it barely runs.

"Faithfully" is being a bit generous, don't you think? In motion, this obviously is very different than the real McCoy.

vs.

And while we're on the subject, here's Bonk:

vs.

[GohanX]

I'll toss in a couple points from my perspective.
For the majority of gamers in the US (and, let's face it, the parents that funded them) a $300 console crossed the line.

From my point of view as someone who grew up at this time and loved video games, I agree. $200 was absolutely the upper limit for a video game system then, as a Christmas present (my ONLY Christmas present, mind you) so anything priced higher than that was out of reach. It didn't matter that the Duo packed in a bunch of awesome games, and to buy a SNES and the equivalent games would have cost more than $300. It didn't matter that the Duo was a complete system for the same price as the Sega CD add on. It also didn't matter that it had a CD Rom drive, and thus was a great deal for the money considering PC CD drives were often $300 by themselves. I knew all of this, but it didn't matter since it was simply too expensive for my parents to buy.

It was mentioned that the Playstation came out a few years later at $299.99, that was also out of reach and I think it was $149.99 before I got one for Christmas. This didn't really bother me, as a friend that was a few years older than me purchased a Saturn and we rented games for it every weekend.

[BigT]

I'll toss in a couple points from my perspective.
For the majority of gamers in the US (and, let's face it, the parents that funded them) a $300 console crossed the line.

From my point of view as someone who grew up at this time and loved video games, I agree. $200 was absolutely the upper limit for a video game system then, as a Christmas present (my ONLY Christmas present, mind you) so anything priced higher than that was out of reach. It didn't matter that the Duo packed in a bunch of awesome games, and to buy a SNES and the equivalent games would have cost more than $300. It didn't matter that the Duo was a complete system for the same price as the Sega CD add on. It also didn't matter that it had a CD Rom drive, and thus was a great deal for the money considering PC CD drives were often $300 by themselves. I knew all of this, but it didn't matter since it was simply too expensive for my parents to buy.

It was mentioned that the Playstation came out a few years later at $299.99, that was also out of reach and I think it was $149.99 before I got one for Christmas. This didn't really bother me, as a friend that was a few years older than me purchased a Saturn and we rented games for it every weekend.

I agree.  I'm not 100% sure what the logic was behind the Turbo Duo marketing strategy.  Though, judging by the ads, they seemed to position themselves against the Sega CD.

To get more developer support, they needed more market penetration.  I still think that price would have been the only way to do that.  The Duo was based on a mature design that used an in-house processor, relatively little RAM/ROM, and an in-house CD-ROM.  It was not as overly-complex and costly as the Sega CD design.  I don't think that they would have lost much money pricing the Duo at $199 or $249 (max).  By that time, I assume that they had pretty good yields on their chips and had cranked up CD-ROM production.  Of course, ideally, they would have also been more aggressive with pricing of the TurboCD earlier, to get some reasonable sales... by the time the Duo came out, they should have bundled the rest of their Turbo CD inventory with system 3 cards and GOT and sold them from ~$99-$149 to provide a nice upgrade path to current TG16 users.  Time and time again it has been proven that the way to make money on consoles is via software sales.

I grew up in a large market in the LA area and a lot of my friends had TG16s.  There were some early adopters like me and some other picked up TG16s when their price went down to ~$69 or so... however, I didn't know anyone who bought the CD attachment and only one person who got a duo as they cost too much for our middle class families to justify buying them for their young kids... I tried with my parents and failed miserably...  Most of us ended up getting an SNES instead.

[kazekirifx]

From my point of view as someone who grew up at this time and loved video games, I agree. $200 was absolutely the upper limit for a video game system then, as a Christmas present (my ONLY Christmas present, mind you) so anything priced higher than that was out of reach.

No offense, but the problem is that you weren't in TTi's target audience for the system. They wanted people who could afford a $300 system and plenty of $50 games on top of that. Me, I just barely managed to afford one with long-term allowance saving + Xmas money, and after I had the system I was buying new games for it so slowly with what little money I had that I doubt TTi really made much of a profit off me.

Unless you're only twenty years old and don't remember what it was like at the time, the Duo was a great value because it was also a CD player. Even by the time the Duo launched, I only knew of a few people my age who had any kind of CD player. Even when the CDX came out, I bought one immediately because it was the same price as the average discman.

This is exactly correct. CD players were expensive back then, and if the Duo had been any cheaper it would have been rivaling the cheapest full-size CD players available at the time. (Hmmm. This is how Sony got people to buy PS3s as a Bluray player...) I think many of you are underestimating how expensive it was to manufacture a CD drive in 1992. I know a CD drive doesn't seem like a big deal compared to a cartridge slot when you think about it nowadays, but at the time the difference was huge. It wasn't realistic then to market a CD-rom system against a cartridge-only system. This becomes even more clear when you look at retail prices of other CD-based systems available at the time and others which were released in the years soon following. If anything, the Duo was on the low end of the price spectrum for CD-based systems of the early 90's.

... by the time the Duo came out, they should have bundled the rest of their Turbo CD inventory with system 3 cards and GOT and sold them from ~$99-$149 to provide a nice upgrade path to current TG16 users

This is an interesting idea. In this case as well, I think rather than $99-149, $199+ would have been a more realistic retail price for this imaginary set, given the pricing of other consoles at the time. But you are right, they had Turbo CD's just sitting on the shelves which were still way overpriced, and didn't even come packaged with the latest system card. It would have been a nice idea to do something constructive with these, rather than just jumping ship completely to focus on the Duo, and releasing the Super System Card as a mail order-only upgrade.

Overall, I see what you guys are saying, that they should have followed the philosophy of "Lose money on the hardware, make money on the software" which is common practice with consoles today. At the time, this was not necessarily the most accepted strategy, though I can't say for sure it wouldn't have helped if TTi had tried this with the Duo. It just wasn't common practice at the time, and also I imagine that they might have been actually losing at least a bit of money on the hardware because, again, CD drives were still pretty expensive at the time. Sure, TTi could have chosen to undercut all their competitors on hardware pricing and thus stood a chance of convincing kids to buy Duos instead of the other systems, and then reaping the rewards of the software market through a large user base. But there was no guarantee this would have proven successful. The competition would have likely also lowered their prices in response. The bottom line is that there is no way that TTi would have attempted this in 1992. No way in hell. They stood to lose a sh*tload if this strategy failed, and they were in no position to risk that.

[SamIAm]

No offense, but the problem is that you weren't in TTi's target audience for the system. They wanted people who could afford a $300 system and plenty of $50 games on top of that.

OK, but how many people were in that target audience? What we're saying is that the number of people in the entire US market for whom a $300 console was an option was too small to be profitable. If NEC wasn't targeting the general population, then they weren't going to get deep enough market penetration to get the 3rd party support they needed to stay afloat...and that's exactly what happened.

Also, I think the "Duo as a CD player" solution only worked for people who had a centralized entertainment setup, which again, wasn't the general population. The PS2 worked as a DVD player because a PS2's integration is identical to that of a normal DVD player. The same can't always be said of a game system and a CD player.

Honestly, I think CD-ROM based game consoles were too expensive in the US in the early 90's, period. For most of us, $300 was just not what you spent on a game system. Cartridge games still met people's standards, and cartridge systems would always undersell a CD system.

[BigT]

... by the time the Duo came out, they should have bundled the rest of their Turbo CD inventory with system 3 cards and GOT and sold them from ~$99-$149 to provide a nice upgrade path to current TG16 users

This is an interesting idea. In this case as well, I think rather than $99-149, $199+ would have been a more realistic retail price for this imaginary set, given the pricing of other consoles at the time. But you are right, they had Turbo CD's just sitting on the shelves which were still way overpriced, and didn't even come packaged with the latest system card. It would have been a nice idea to do something constructive with these, rather than just jumping ship completely to focus on the Duo, and releasing the Super System Card as a mail order-only upgrade.

Overall, I see what you guys are saying, that they should have followed the philosophy of "Lose money on the hardware, make money on the software" which is common practice with consoles today. At the time, this was not necessarily the most accepted strategy, though I can't say for sure it wouldn't have helped if TTi had tried this with the Duo. It just wasn't common practice at the time, and also I imagine that they might have been actually losing at least a bit of money on the hardware because, again, CD drives were still pretty expensive at the time. Sure, TTi could have chosen to undercut all their competitors on hardware pricing and thus stood a chance of convincing kids to buy Duos instead of the other systems, and then reaping the rewards of the software market through a large user base. But there was no guarantee this would have proven successful. The competition would have likely also lowered their prices in response. The bottom line is that there is no way that TTi would have attempted this in 1992. No way in hell. They stood to lose a sh*tload if this strategy failed, and they were in no position to risk that.

Does anyone have an idea of what the manufacturing cost was of the Turbo Duo?

The system board seems like it would be pretty inexpensive.  They were using the same basic design as from 1987.  I doubt that the HuC6280 was very expensive... heck, 65c02 chips were pretty cheap back then.  Memory was also not that expensive in 1992.  Especially, since the Duo probably uses pretty slow ram and only has 256k main cd ram + 8k work ram + 64k VRAM + 64k adpcm buffer + 256k bios rom...  the cd-rom drive is the wild card... I have no idea what the oem cost was for a drive back then... retail prices were high, but that doesn't always indicate production costs... nec did produce them in house and the PC-engine duo was released 1 year prior to the Turbo Duo, while the original CD attachment was released a few years prior to that, so I'd assume they would have reduced production costs over 4+ years since the original PC engine CD drive was released.  All the main R&D was done years prior!

The SegaCD seems like a different story... they added a bunch of custom hardware for graphics and sound (which were sorely underutilized and limited by the poor color palette of the Genesis) and added a redundant (albeit faster) 68k processor (68k series was significantly more expensive than the old Mostek/WDC 65c02 chips... also, it did have quite a bit more ram... so I could totally see it being more expensive to develop and manufacture than the Turbo Duo.

[kazekirifx]

OK, but how many people were in that target audience? What we're saying is that the number of people in the entire US market for whom a $300 console was an option was too small to be profitable. If NEC wasn't targeting the general population, then they weren't going to get deep enough market penetration to get the 3rd party support they needed to stay afloat...and that's exactly what happened.

Yep. TTi knew it, and that's why they only made it available at specialty stores. NEC had already been going with virtually zero 3rd party support with the TG16 for a few years, and I'm sure TTi didn't expect that to change dramatically after the release of the Duo. The number of units produced was probably a lot for a 'specialty' system, but still I'm sure it was not nearly as high as the number of SNES's and Genny's Nintendo and Sega had produced - even in their initial runs. Again, they weren't going for an SNES-size launch. They knew that was out of the question. The $300 price tag clearly shows they were targeting gamer adults and spoiled kids whose parents were loaded. They didn't expect the casual gamer to shell out that kind of money.

If they really wanted to take on Nintendo and Sega, then they could have done it with the TG16, not the Duo. And we all know there are a lot of things NEC should have done differently with the TG16 too, but that is a whole separate discussion in itself.

[esteban]

First, I want to thank you all (especially Zeta, who crafted many hilarious, at times ludicrous, lines!) for turning this thread into a goddamn masterpiece.  

Second, although there have been some persuasive arguments/counter-arguments presented, I was surprised by how the "16-bit wars" we're characterized by...everyone. It was never TG-16 vs Genesis at the dawn of the 16-bit era. It was Genesis vs. firmly entrenched NES. And the NES wasn't dethroned instantly, simply because it had aging hardware. Far from it.

A crucial piece of the puzzle you folks missed: The NES never died! It would be far more accurate to say that the NES led a full life and gradually receded (faded) from the market. So, really, our beleaguered (doomed) TG-16 and the (Young Turk) Genesis were competing with the NES juggernaut, first and foremost, for the price-sensitive consumers (parents) of the mainstream market. Forget about any niche markets (NEC's business plan was intent on capturing the mass-market—at least, that was their original goal upon launch). We have already established that mass-market, mainstream success (NES) creates a momentum that insures continued sales—despite fresh, new competitors (Genesis, TG-16).  Let's not forget that the existing user base for NES was huge, with money to spend on new software, thereby ensuring that publishers would continue supporting the aging NES. Surely you remember how many fantastic NES games were released in late-1989, 1990, 1991...some of the most critically acclaimed and profitable NES titles co-existed with the dawn of the 16-bit era.

Why bring this up? The continued success and popularity of NES pushed TG-16 even further into the periphery.

Brand recognition? Must-have games that everyone is talking about? Software that you can easily lend to/borrow from others? The NES was crushing even the mighty Genesis (and Sega had superb marketing and a compelling library of games).

What were parents/price-sensitive shoppers going to buy in 1989 and 1990?

NES. (Everyone has one! It provides good entertainment for a reasonable cost.)

What were folks with more expendable income going to get?

Genesis.

What was Zeta going to buy?

He saved his money for years and purchased 3DO at launch.

What was Cook going to buy?

He was busy playing the games that were included with Windows 3.0.


    What went wrong with the TurboDuo?

Wrong question. We should be asking ourselves: "How did TTi manage to launch the Duo and stick around for as long as they did?"

[DragonmasterDan]

A crucial piece of the puzzle you folks missed: The NES never died! It would be far more accurate to say that the NES led a full life and gradually receded (faded) from the market. So, really, our beleaguered (doomed) TG-16 and the (Young Turk) Genesis were competing with the NES juggernaut, first and foremost, for the price-sensitive consumers (parents) of the mainstream market. Forget about any niche markets (NEC's business plan was intent on capturing the mass-market—at least, that was their original goal upon launch). We have already established that mass-market, mainstream success (NES) creates a momentum that insures continued sales—despite fresh, new competitors (Genesis, TG-16).  Let's not forget that the existing user base for NES was huge, with money to spend on new software, thereby ensuring that publishers would continue supporting the aging NES. Surely you remember how many fantastic NES games were released in late-1989, 1990, 1991...some of the most critically acclaimed and profitable NES titles co-existed with the dawn of the 16-bit era.

This was about the TurboDuo not the TurboGrafx 16. By 1992 when the Duo came out the NES was no longer dominating the market. In fact that was the case by 1991 when the Genesis finally outsold it. If we were talking about the TurboGrafx 16 from its start in 1989 then obviously the NES would be hugely important. But this was more about the Duo, which came out three years later and was more of a premium item aimed at a far more dedicated gaming audience.

   What went wrong with the TurboDuo?

Wrong question. We should be asking ourselves: "How did TTi manage to launch the Duo and stick around as long as they did?"

The answer to this is simple. NEC Home Electronics USA wanted out of the home video game market. Hudson and NEC of Japan were not ready to give up,both of them pooled together some resources and the end result was TTI. As far as how they managed to stick around as long as they did, the small scale of the operation towards the end tells you all you need to know with games allegedally having print runs of merely 500 copies towards the end.

[soop]

If you guys ever agree, you should collaborate on a "history of the Turbo Grafx" for Wikipedia.

and we should totally split PC Engine from TG-16 on wikipedia.

[spenoza]

Another thing we forget about the success of the NES is that it was constantly patched along by extra hardware included in the cartridges. All the awesome games we remember from about 2 years into the life of the NES used mappers with additional hardware to make up for the shortcomings of the original NES design.

[Arkhan Asylum]

we dont need that. there are no PCE shortcomings!

also, Contra for NES was epic-sweet, and LACKED over the Japanese one. 

All of the awesome games from 2 years in is a bit of a stretch.  There weren't that many using extra mappers.

And, some of what did wasn't even released here so it doesn't even count.

[spenoza]

we dont need that. there are no PCE shortcomings!

also, Contra for NES was epic-sweet, and LACKED over the Japanese one. 

All of the awesome games from 2 years in is a bit of a stretch.  There weren't that many using extra mappers.

And, some of what did wasn't even released here so it doesn't even count.

Super Mario Brothers 2 and 3 used extra mappers. Punch Out used a mapper. Kirby's Adventure used a mapper. I could go on, but the thing is, most of the best-regarded games used a mapper that did more than simply allow addressing more memory. Sometimes it was simple, like allowing a stationary bar for game information, but that's still something that was difficult to replicate on the stock NES.

[DragonmasterDan]

Super Mario Brothers 2 and 3 used extra mappers. Punch Out used a mapper. Kirby's Adventure used a mapper. I could go on, but the thing is, most of the best-regarded games used a mapper that did more than simply allow addressing more memory. Sometimes it was simple, like allowing a stationary bar for game information, but that's still something that was difficult to replicate on the stock NES.

All of those games are more than 2 years after the platform launched. Remember, the Famicom came out in 83, the earliest game mentioned Punch Out, came out in 87. The use of mappers didn't really start until then. To the US, yes that was two years later, but four years into the Japanese life of the platform.

[spenoza]

All of those games are more than 2 years after the platform launched. Remember, the Famicom came out in 83, the earliest game mentioned Punch Out, came out in 87. The use of mappers didn't really start until then. To the US, yes that was two years later, but four years into the Japanese life of the platform.

I did specify NES and not Famicom, since we're talking about the TurboDuo largely in the US context, and this IS in the TG-16 forum and not the PCE forum.

[kazekirifx]

and we should totally split PC Engine from TG-16 on wikipedia.

No we shouldn't. I understand that each system has its own separate history in each country it was marketed, but Genesis doesn't have a separate page from Mega Drive. NES doesn't have a separate page from Famicom. Why should TG-16 be any different?

[SignOfZeta]

and we should totally split PC Engine from TG-16 on wikipedia.

No we shouldn't. I understand that each system has its own separate history in each country it was marketed, but Genesis doesn't have a separate page from Mega Drive. NES doesn't have a separate page from Famicom. Why should TG-16 be any different?

I agree. That would be a terrible idea.

Regarding some things I've said...I have to apologize.

$300 was not too much money for a successful system based on five year old hardware. The Duo's library is every bit as modern looking as the SNES and Genesis to the average man. Even the games written in 1988 look nothing like FC games despite them being written at the same time and by the same people who made most of their money writing FC games. Even the PCE ports of FC games look nothing like FC games. The TG-16 didn't have a NES-esque controller. The games' ROM sizes are just as large as SNES/MD stuff most of the time. Anyone who didn't buy this system was either an idiot or a SNERD, probably both. What TTI needed to do was spend 50 million on advertising to educate the masses.  People should have known that the system would eventually be proven to be capable of non-flicker-based transparencies by a home brew coder exploring an undocumented feature 15 years after the system was dead (fucking DUH!). The only reason why the people bought Genesis/SNES was because of the ads, obviously. All the games look terrible and are full of unfair cheesy tricks. Nobody actually has fun with them. I only said all those things before because I hate the PCE to death. All 4151 of my posts are about how much the PCE is a piece of shit. Also, the 3DO fucking owns.

Or, more logically, the system did not appear, in the eyes of the average gamer, to be worth $300, even if the average gamer had $300 to spend, which they probably didn't.

I was in my late teens when the 16-bit era was in full swing. I bought the Genesis, the Duo, and the SNES, in that order. I loved all three systems although the Genesis (Sega's most popular system, but, IMO, absolutely their worst) is very much last place with the SNES and PCE taking about equal time during their normal lifespan. These days the PCE gets the most play. I couldn't afford Neo Geo until recently when the MVS market reached full depreciation. I've been posting here for seven years and before that did time on the Turbo Mailing list.

If you are mentally capable of grasping the fact that someone can love SFC as much as PCE then you can probably also understand this: The PCE is one of the greatest systems ever, possibly THE greatest, but when it comes to the TG-16 gaining mass market success, NEC/TTI was dead fucked. This doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the system, it was just never going to happen. For the same reason that more people watched Phantom Menace than Solaris, more people bought Madden on Genesis than Lords of Thunder. ITS OKAY THIS WAY. PCE isn't the prom king, he's the poet. He's not Def Leopard, he's the Dead Kennedy's. PCE doesn't own a home, he lives in a squat in Manchester in 1977. PCE never combs his hair, but he didn't start getting fat when he turned 20 either. PCE is awesome, not despite these things, but BECAUSE of these things.

If you can't understand these concepts then...you are doomed to a frustrating time trying to rewrite a history where the Duo had everything going for it but just got somehow magically screwed by amorphous player haters.

[NightWolve]

And Zeta delivers another entertaining, yet informative post! Bravo! I do wonder what other goodies I've missed by you over the years I wasn't around.

[Tatsujin]

[ Example: most PCE shooters are very fun, most NES shooters are zero fun, yet there really isn't much separating them, fundamentally speaking.

[jlued686]

@Zeta:

*slowclap*

[Tatsujin]

@Zeta:

*slowclap*

[Arkhan Asylum]

Im not really sure how to explain it but I think the whole "ohh it used a memory mapper" thing is kind of pointless.


The really OMG WOW ones (MMC5, aka CV3) were not really used heavily, and the other ones (MMC1-3) are so commonly used that it isn't worth mentioning.  It's not "extra hardware" in the sense of anything grand.  It's memory management.  Whoopdeedick.


The important extra addon stuff were things like the Na106 and the VRC2.

and we didn't even get them here, so whoop-de-doooooo.

Ever play Contra for Famicom?  It's got snow. 

We didn't get any of the sweet shit here. 

[SignOfZeta]

Im not really sure how to explain it but I think the whole "ohh it used a memory mapper" thing is kind of pointless.

Totally. I mean, how hypothetical and nerdy can an argument get? What defines a system are the games that actually exist.

These days I actually prefer the pre-MMC games though. Donkey Kong 3 has no flicker. I can't even tell WTF is going on in Mighty Final Fight.

[thesteve]

one of the first things i noticed about my TG16 bitd was with all the sprites on screen in R-Type it didnt slow or flicker

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah, that's my favorite part about the PCE. It is really low on flicker.

[Tatsujin]

..and rich in lots of sprites and bullets and colors and action and speed and dynamics and all what's needed for some superior 16bit shoot'em up play fun.

[thesteve]

yep, its better then SMS for shmups.
and the SMS beat NES hands down

[spenoza]

Im not really sure how to explain it but I think the whole "ohh it used a memory mapper" thing is kind of pointless... It's not "extra hardware" in the sense of anything grand.  It's memory management.  Whoopdeedick... The important extra addon stuff were things like the Na106 and the VRC2.

Not entirely correct. Here is a quote from Wikipedia about the MMC 1-3:

Most licensed games used either the MMC1 or the MMC3, which could swap graphics data for animated tiles, diagonal scrolling, and had a built-in interrupt counter for split screen effects

Sure, it did memory mapping, but there were other chips that also did that. The MMCs also allowed for improved video effects and such that were difficult or impossible with the stock NES hardware. They weren't massive hardware expansions like the SuperFX chip on the SNES or the MMC5 on the NES, but they did improve system capabilities beyond simply being memory mappers. I consider those hardware expansions. Super Mario Bros. 3, for example, could not have been made as it was without MMC3, and not just for the memory mapping.

You are correct, though. We didn't get some of the best ones here, because the best mappers also improved sound quality with additional sound hardware. The NES lacked the audio passthrough on the cartridge slot, so there was no way to make them work here without a system revision.

This makes me think of something, though. Does the TG-16 have a scan line timer? Can it do the split screen tile thing like SMB3?

[CrackTiger]

People should have known that the system would eventually be proven to be capable of non-flicker-based transparencies by a home brew coder exploring an undocumented feature 15 years after the system was dead (fucking DUH!)

You should know now since examples have been given to more than once, that many published PCE games from bitd feature non-flicker transparency effects.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Not entirely correct. Here is a quote from Wikipedia about the MMC 1-3:

-_-;

Most licensed games used either the MMC1 or the MMC3, which could swap graphics data for animated tiles, diagonal scrolling, and had a built-in interrupt counter for split screen effects

This is MEMORY MANAGEMENT

that's what the MMC stands for, lol.  

Sure, it did memory mapping, but there were other chips that also did that.

Yeah, and they were all called MMC# too or some were called VRC#

The MMCs also allowed for improved video effects and such that were difficult or impossible with the stock NES hardware. They weren't massive hardware expansions like the SuperFX chip on the SNES or the MMC5 on the NES, but they did improve system capabilities beyond simply being memory mappers. I consider those hardware expansions. Super Mario Bros. 3, for example, could not have been made as it was without MMC3, and not just for the memory mapping.

All the improved video effects are from memory management.   It's a hardware expansion, sure, but not in any grand sense.  

and, all MMC3 has in it IS memory mapping. and the scanline IRQ to do split scrolling easier.  But hey, they did it before MMC3.  It just became *easier*.   It could've been done without it, but would have been a few pains in the ass.    What the hell else do you think is in the thing? Magic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Memory_Controller#List_of_MMC_chips

There's all the memory mappers.  Note how some of the later ones were barely used due to price.  Also note how some of them weren't even used in the US.

then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-Memory_Controller#Third-party_chips

Note the fact that we didn't get most of these, but they are still mostly memory mappers.

The really cool extra hardware is the Namco163.  It gives you sweet music.


You're making it sound like the cartridges had amazing extra addons, when really all it did was include a useful memory mapper.

[NightWolve]

Hm, that was interesting:

Since the NES, unlike the Famicom, did not allow cartridges to add additional sound channels, the soundtrack on the western versions could only access the original five sound channels built into the NES and had to be reworked.

Why the hell did they redesign that ability OUT of the NES system if it had already gone into the Famicom design?

@Tatsujin: I'm adding that slowclap animated GIF to my PWN image collection. Thank you! ;) I guess my avatar would've worked for your purposes too, but eh, that one is kinda old.

[ccovell]

Most licensed games used either the MMC1 or the MMC3, which could swap graphics data for animated tiles, diagonal scrolling, and had a built-in interrupt counter for split screen effects

"Diagonal Scrolling" is Nintendo's Blast Processing.  It was PR-speak for something the base NES could do anyway.  I think they mentioned it just to promote Play Action Football.  Smoke and mirrors.

I agree with Arkhan.  Most mappers/MMCs just added (very useful) character graphic banking, PRG ROM banking, and an interrupt unit.  It's a mapper-- hence the name -- not a DSP.

[SignOfZeta]

People should have known that the system would eventually be proven to be capable of non-flicker-based transparencies by a home brew coder exploring an undocumented feature 15 years after the system was dead (fucking DUH!)

You should know now since examples have been given to more than once, that many published PCE games from bitd feature non-flicker transparency effects.

I'm a bit hazy about the exact details that previous "SignOfZeta hates PC Engine" witch hunt turned up, but in the end I thought we agreed that we have different opinions of what transparencies are, what flicker based transparencies are, etc. To me, the first system to do real transparencies, where you could just throw down a layer and change its opacity at will, numerically, with a hardware function, where slowdown would not fuck up the effect because it wasn't based on an interlacing trick, was the SNES. The PS, SS were the next big ones to have it built in, although the CDI, Jag, and 3DO might have done it as well, I'm totally clueless about the capabilities of those systems.

The way the PCE does transparencies is the same way its done on Genesis, Neo Geo, and other 16 bit arcade hardware. The object is there, it isn't there, it is there, it isn't there, really fast like that, so that it appears half there. In other words, it flickers. Its not transparent like a clear piece of plastic of glass is transparent. When things are transparent in real life they aren't %50 opaque because the thing is only there %50 of the time and absent the other %50 of the time. They are %50 transparent because only %50 of the light actually travels though them. On PCE you can't really change how transparent an object is except by changing the rate of the flicker, and that really falls apart at certain levels. Ie: you can't have something with %5 opacity since that would mean having the object only appear in %5 of the frames which...really wouldn't work for shit...although it is done quite frequently, usually when a character dies and is meant to disappear. Of course you can also make things seem transparent via very careful pallet choices and dithering effects, but those aren't variable at all.

An example of a true transparent image.

If the coder wanted to make the clouds slightly more opaque he could assign a different opacity factor. If the game slows down (which it certainly does, because its a SNES after all) there is no constantly changing flicker rate to fuck up the effect. Its exactly that opaque all the time.

Like I said before, I'm sure you think this looks like shit, or that its unfair tackily made bullshit, it doesn't matter, but its an actual transparent layer, just like in Photoshop or, in the old days, cels painted with transparent paint, gels that go over spotlights, etc. The PCE doesn't do this, at least not in retail games. Its OK though. I DONT HATE THE PCE. I'm just saying that the SNES was the first system to do this, three years later. Not even the Neo Geo can do it.

Now that I think about it, the fact that I chose Kikikaikai is interesting. This game is on both PCE and SFC. The PCE version is much more like the arcade version, the SNES version is a hella hopped up remake. Most people who aren't super hardcore fanboys with lifelong devotions to specific companies would say that the SNES version is quite a bit fancier. There are many many reason this is the case, but it really does illustrate my point that the PCE does not appear as powerful as the SNES to most people. Most people don't care that the PCE version is several years older, wasn't that great of a port, and was never designed to be fancier than the arcade in the first place, etc, they just look at the stuff and judge the SFC port to be better. That's what they did in Japan of course, in the US Kikikaikai never came out for TG16 and nobody played the SNES version, they would have made other comparisons, but either way...that's what they did, world wide, and this is why the SNES is usually regarded as the "winner" of the 16-bit era. People in 1990 didn't know about all the in-depth analysis of system capabilities you and other people would provide years into the future. They could only see what they saw at the store, at the arcade, and at their friends house.

There is theory, and there is reality. In politics people will often go with theory, but when it comes to spending cash, they usually go with reality. The reality is that by 1992 people were buying SNES because when they saw the SNES, they liked what they saw. The OP asked, "What went wrong" with the Duo. Well, people didn't like what they saw. They saw the visuals as being from the past and the price as being from the future. Strictly speaking, that's exactly what it was. An architecture from 1987 and a price point that wouldn't become acceptable until 1995.

[SignOfZeta]

"Diagonal Scrolling" is Nintendo's Blast Processing.  It was PR-speak for something the base NES could do anyway.  I think they mentioned it just to promote Play Action Football.  Smoke and mirrors.

Seriously? They actually used "diagonal scrolling" as a buzz word? I don't remember much of that. Blast Processing I do remember though. Sega pushed that really hard with Sonic 2.

Also, to be fair, "diagonal scrolling" does actually mean something. "Blast Processing" is something where I still don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Even from a technical perspective, the TG16 is pretty much half way between the NES era and the SNES era. Technically, historically, chronologically, aesthetically. Have you ever played a SNES game as crude as Keith Courage or Energy? I haven't. I know, you like Keith Courage and Energy, thats fine, but seriously....JUST LOOK AT THOSE GAMES. Are they more like NES or more like SNES? Honestly. No bullshit. If you saw Blue Blink for the first time today would you assume it was for Neo Geo or CPS2 because of how insanely great the 16-bit visuals are?

Shaq Fu.
Pit Fighter
Home Improvement
Waynes World?
Bebe's Kids

Some of these came out so far into the life of the SNES that their shitness is inexcusable. There are more.  Terminator was pretty shitty, so was Revolution X. THe one Bubsy game was kind of retarded too.

Come on. Its OK to wall yourself off into your own little world. We all do it a little every day to stay sane. The problem comes when you fail to admit/understand that this is what you are doing. China Warrior is shite. It just is.

You are using hindsight and time-travel shenanigans to diss games.  I wonder if you were like this when the stuff was current.

I think you simply lack the ability to play old games in their proper context.  You probably hate Atari 2600 Asteroids because it flickers and you can play something better on your iPhone, right?

I play Hydlide for what it is and don't even bother comparing it to LoZ.  Comparing it would be dumb.  No shit LoZ is going to play better.  It's got more to work with.  Hydlide basically paved the way for all the action RPGs, not Zelda, not Ys.   Recognize.

China Warrior is the first game for the greatest console ever made.  Call it a tech demo, but it's got HUGE sprites, sweet music, and solid gameplay.  Nearly everyone who plays it and makes fun of it approaches it wrong.  It's a Gladiator style game.  Not a Streets of Rage style game.   Once you've realized this and approach it as a timing based game, you'd be surprised how much more fun you have with it.  

I bought that game and played it for the first time in 1999.  It was 7.95$  I played it for hours and hours and hours.  I had PS1, Genesis, Sega CD, Saturn, SNES, a Quake II capable PC, and other stuff I could have played too.  This did not stop me from having a kickass weekend affair with China Warrior until I beat the flying fuck out of that drunk bastard.   What about it makes it shite, other than it not being Streets of Rage.


Energy is a port of a PC-88 game.  What the fuck were you expecting?  For all of it's flaws it still isn't that bad.  It's campy enough that even if I paid full price for that game, I wouldn't hate it.  

I'm not in my own little world.

Actually, maybe I am.

However, this little world has everything.  I've got 2600, INTV2, C64, Apple II, NES, SMS, PCE, etc. etc.  

I play it all, and I like it all.  I play Akalabeth as much as I play Super Star Soldier.

I'll fire up Ultima V after playing CF2.   China Warrior followed by Alisia Dragoon.  

I just play games that I think are good.  It's not hard to recognize which games accomplished something great and paved the way for what you're pissing and moaning about.

Without Hydlide, I wonder if we'd have Ys like we have it now.
Without China Warrior, we may not even have the PCE as we know it today.  What if they made it with tinyass douche-sprites and people just brushed it off, and it flopped so bad people refused to buy it?  What if the massive sprites didn't excite developers and go OMG LOOK HOW BIG SHIT CAN BE ON THIS THING HOLY FUCK.  

You never know.  

EDIT: also, Diagonal Scrolling means one thing.

Isolated Warrior.

Game's fuckin awesome.

[ccovell]

"Diagonal Scrolling" is Nintendo's Blast Processing.  It was PR-speak for something the base NES could do anyway.

Seriously? They actually used "diagonal scrolling" as a buzz word? I don't remember much of that. Blast Processing I do remember though. Sega pushed that really hard with Sonic 2.

Not as a buzz-word.  I'll correct my quote:

"Diagonal Scrolling" is Nintendo's Blast Processing in that it was PR-logic for something the base NES could do anyway.

[rag-time4]

I really wanted a Duo when I saw it for sale... I think of all place I saw it at Long's Drugs, now CVS pharmacy. I seemed to remember them having the SNES and Genesis as well. I never pushed my parents for one because I just didn't know enough about it to have any real interest.

I had some brief experience with the TurboGrafx-16 maybe 1-2 years prior, because my next door neighbors had one. I got to play Battle Royale, China Warrior, Bloody Volt, and Legendary Axe II. Of all those, Axe II stood out the most, and seemed a decent game. But action platformers werent the type of games that I got excited about back then. The two games I wanted most with the SNES were Super Mario World and Final Fantasy IV. I hated Battle Royale, thought China Warrior was incredibly stiff and unimpressive, saw Bloody Volt as a penniless man's Contra, and Axe II was decent but not enough.

My neighbors quickly got rid of their Turbo and got a Sega, and eventually a SNES as well.

The one game I was excited about as a kid on the Turbo, through the release of the Duo, was Fighting Street... but I kind of forgot about it as a kid because I was so impressed with some of the games on the SNES. I finally did buy a boxed Duo in 00/01 or so, along with Fighting Street, SideArms, and Keith Courage.

[NightWolve]

Bloody Volt

Eheh.

[Arkhan Asylum]

whats funny that I just noticed is, I wasn't even really coherent while all this shit was goin down.

I only knew what a Turbob was because my aunt had one.   I didn't know what the fuck a Duo was until I was like, 13, in 2001.

all my game info came from my relatives, who focused on Nintendo/Sega happenings more than anything.