2-D shooters SHMUPS

[turboswimbz]

so i have never been much into the 2-D shooters.  I have tried to really get into them, but idk I never seem to find one I love, I like many of them, and even cleared a few, air zonk, fantasy zone, deep blue.  Yeah i know I'm not a huge fan yet I dodged my way through deep blue, silly right?.  anyway, recently got SSS and so far I do actually love it, I can't get past stage 3 yet, but I figure that's due to my lack of shmup skills thus far.  So I was wonder from some of the fans out there, what is your favorite part of the 2-D shooters, and what game got you hooked, how did you find out about that game?  What games do you feel offer the best experience?  (also i don't see why we can't talk about PCE shooters as well, since they will be bound to come up, and there is no sense in starting two separate threads)

[jlued686]

I got into shmups in a major way a few years ago after not really thinking about them much previously. What inspired it, beyond my love of the Turbo consoles, was meeting some people who were REALLY into them and REALLY fucking good at them. Most of them hang out at the shmups.com forums.

They showed me Cave games like Mushihimesama, Espgaluda, and DoDonPachi. I became mesmerized by the bullet patterns, and was amazed by how skillful they were at these games. So I began snatching up the imports on Saturn and PS2 and investing a lot of time (and money) into them. I'm still not great at them, but I can at least clear handfuls of levels without continuing.

Anyway, this made me go back and have more appreciation for the Turbo/PC Engine shmups. I always loved Gate and Lords of Thunder, but I really dug deeply into the rest of the catalog.

As far as my favorites, I already mentioned Cave, but I'll also buy anything by Treasure (Radiant Silvergun, Gradius V, and Ikaruga). For Turbo-specific games, Gate and Lords of Thunder are still my favorites. I'll never forget the first time I plugged in my brand new Turbo Duo and booted up Gate of Thunder. Mind blown.

[bob]

... I'll never forget the first time I plugged in my brand new Turbo Duo and booted up Gate of Thunder. Mind blown.

Ditto. I never quite got into Lords, but I'm also not great at shmups, so maybe that's why. Anyway, lately I've been collecting NES shmups and having a ball with them. Some are great and some are downright terrible. For some reason, my opinion on specific games seem to differ from most. For instance, I can't stand aero blasters or dead moon and others love them.
I am a huge gate fan, blazing lasers, galaga, sidearms, and sinistron for TG.
For NES... gyruss, guardian legend, stinger, and gradius have caught my fancy.
Finally, I would say Radient Silvergun is quite possibly the best shooter I have ever played. The music is majestic.

[Sadler]

I love Lords of Thunder! I think the music and settings are better than Gate. Entering a boss battle and hearing the initial ROAR! of the boss is just awesome! Also, I suck at shooters and have actually beat Lords, which is more than I can say for Gate.

Like you said, the Soldier series is awesome. I still think SSS > SB > FS, but the margin between SSS and SB is incredibly thin.

Other shooters? Check out the Download games, I love the cyber punk theme to them. Sapphire is cool too, but it's more cool from a "holy shit, the PCE can do this?!" angle than from a gameplay standpoint. That's not to say Sapphire is weak in gameplay, I just think other games do a better job.

EDIT: Yeah, Sinistron is really cool and I don't think it gets near enough credit. Sidearms and Forgotten Worlds have yet to grab me, I just can't get into the mechanics.

[jlued686]

Finally, I would say Radient Silvergun is quite possibly the best shooter I have ever played. The music is majestic.

One of my all-time favorite games. Bliss.

[SignOfZeta]

I've found that when you stop using the term "shmup" they become a lot more apealing.

[turboswimbz]

I don't use the term actually, I just like calling them shooters, my brother just calls them those "old" ones

[PunkCryborg]

shooters! that's why we all like PCE, right?
I horizontal shooters because they are memorization based and I like setting small goals. I get the same kind of satisfaction when I clear a good shooter as when I solve a hard puzzle or finish a small but satisfying project. I also like them because I don't have a lot of time in one sitting to play games so they are perfect.
For PCE I like almost all the shooters. Even the bad ones i can still get some kind of enjoyment over conquering them and their flaws. I especially like Download, W-ring, the soldiers, Rayxanber II and all the cute em ups are great too.

[jlued686]

I've found that when you stop using the term "shmup" they become a lot more apealing.

Whatever...

If anything, it helps differentiate them from what all the young whippersnappers refer to as shooters these days (FPS), without having to say "2D shooters".

[bob]

... Also, I suck at shooters and have actually beat Lords, which is more than I can say for Gate.

Really? What the hell is wrong with me then?  I have tried all of the levels that you can select from, and I am yet to even see a boss. I must not be "getting it" somewhere along the line.

What about genesis?  I haven't played any shooters on the genny that I remember standing out. I have a few for sega cd, but what about carts? Any recommendations?

[futureman2000]

I was not a big fan of the genre until I played Batsugun on the Saturn. It's really short, but the art and music really got me hooked. It was my gateway shooter.

[Sadler]

... Also, I suck at shooters and have actually beat Lords, which is more than I can say for Gate.

Really? What the hell is wrong with me then?  I have tried all of the levels that you can select from, and I am yet to even see a boss. I must not be "getting it" somewhere along the line.

Stick with one level, don't keep swapping between them. Honestly doing them "in order" (around the ring) I think works well. Other than that, it's pretty standard shooter. Keep your weapon powered up (at least level 2) and you'll do fine. I prefer Earth and Wind, pretty much for everything.

[bob]

... Also, I suck at shooters and have actually beat Lords, which is more than I can say for Gate.

Really? What the hell is wrong with me then?  I have tried all of the levels that you can select from, and I am yet to even see a boss. I must not be "getting it" somewhere along the line.

Stick with one level, don't keep swapping between them. Honestly doing them "in order" (around the ring) I think works well. Other than that, it's pretty standard shooter. Keep your weapon powered up (at least level 2) and you'll do fine. I prefer Earth and Wind, pretty much for everything.

Thanks, I'll give it another go sometime. It was my first VC purchase a while back when I didnt want to spring for the disc.

[jlued686]

I was not a big fan of the genre until I played Batsugun on the Saturn. It's really short, but the art and music really got me hooked. It was my gateway shooter.

Batsugun kicks ass! Was obsessed with that one for several months.

[Drakon]

Batsugun special is the best.  I've played a batsugun special arcade board (unfinished beta version but it's playable).  I'm also big on certain cave shmups, ketsui, mushihimesama, espgaluda.

I also think gate of thunderforce is an amazing somewhat hacked game (I prefer the music over the original gate of thunder)

The first shmup I ever got into was the first raiden in the arcades.  Now I think the game is total garbage but back in 1990 it was such an awesome concept to me.  Some years later I played raptor on the pc and again I was totally sucked in, but now I think it's a terrible game.  My personal favourite shmup of all time is ketsui, I'm okay at ketsui but definitely far from the greatest ketsui player ever.  I discovered ketsui at a shmupmeet, some dude owned the board (years before it came out on xbox 360).  I played ketsui and instantly I was hooked on the game.  I like how ketsui requires a lot of memorization therefore the more you play it the better you get at it (very rewarding for time put in).

Anyone who's interested in ketsui here's a 1cc recording I made:

Other shmups I think rock are....

megadrive:
thunderforce 4
verytex
V-V / V-five

famicom:

crisis force
recca (even though I can't get anywhere in this game)

[tpivette]

Sapphire for sure, just for the visual experience. Blazing Lazers... my second Turbo game ever (1989), and just an awesome introduction to not only shooters, but to the TG16 as well (Keith Courage doesnt really count). Gate and Lords of Thunder... badass graphics/music/gameplay, really shows off the SCD potential.

While I have yet to experience the Soldier series, I definitely want to play these soon. Probably be the PCE versions as the US ones are kind of costly. They seem to resemble Blazing Lazers alot, so I'm sure I'll love them

[rag-time4]

so i have never been much into the 2-D shooters.  I have tried to really get into them, but idk I never seem to find one I love, I like many of them, and even cleared a few, air zonk, fantasy zone, deep blue.  Yeah i know I'm not a huge fan yet I dodged my way through deep blue, silly right?.  anyway, recently got SSS and so far I do actually love it, I can't get past stage 3 yet, but I figure that's due to my lack of shmup skills thus far.  So I was wonder from some of the fans out there, what is your favorite part of the 2-D shooters, and what game got you hooked, how did you find out about that game?  What games do you feel offer the best experience?  (also i don't see why we can't talk about PCE shooters as well, since they will be bound to come up, and there is no sense in starting two separate threads)

I think that good music is very important to a good shooter... I think it was playing a couple stages in blazing lazers (5 desert and 8 bubble) at high volumes really got me hooked on the genre. Lords and Gate of Thunder have obvious aesthetic appeal, but the one shooter that really won me over with its gameplay is Image Fight..

Image Fight is a pretty tough game, but the control you get with the red pods really gives you an immersive feeling once you get into it. The rigid weapons in other shooters are extremely boring by comparison.

By the way, have you tried the flame weapon in SSS? Give it a couple tries now and then... be creative with how you fly as the flame sweeps back and forth. It's a unique experience! The flame can be very effective if you complement the movement of the flame with appropriate movement of your ship, staying in constant motion.

[Otaking]

so i have never been much into the 2-D shooters.

I like many of them, and even cleared a few, deep blue.

[Tatsujin]

I got into shooting games right after I got into video games back in maybe 1980 or 81. and ever since then this genre is my favorit of all genres out there.

 that also got me into pce'ing in the frist place. that also encouraged me to get all the shewties available on the system

"she" sure is the queen (king) of all 8/16-bit shewties

[majors]

So I was wonder from some of the fans out there, what is your favorite part of the 2-D shooters, and what game got you hooked, how did you find out about that game? 

I remember playing Super Cobra in the arcade and loving it in my youth(thank you Galloping!). It's on my want list for "classsic" cabs but Stern hardware, I've heard, is finicky. Then I remember R-type and Side Arms...good thing I could get them both on TG! Raiden was hot shit in the day, but it's only when I played Viper Phase 1 (followed by Raiden Fighters series -same hardware) when I really appeciated Raiden. Saturn took care of my arcade ports with Dairus, Metal Black, Sexy Parodius, etc. Of course Cave entered my vocabulary soon after with Ikaruga and Mushi("Bug Bitch").

What about genesis?  I haven't played any shooters on the genny that I remember standing out.

Musha is the easy answer on that, but prices are getting silly. Others worth mentioning: Lightening Force(TF4), Steel Empire, Thunder Force III, Trouble Shooter and Wings of Wor. I own all those, so I can feel good about recommending them. Turbo is still my go-to console for my shooters though.

[SuperDeadite]

Shooters are the same as every other genre really.  80% of them suck.  It's not about "learning to enjoy shooters."  So much as it is just finding a shooter you actually like.  If you are forcing yourself to play a game in the hopes of "getting it", you are playing the wrong game.

[geise]

"getting it"

You mean like most Cave games?

[Otaking]

"getting it"

You mean like most Cave games?

ahhhgh you kill my mothership with pink bullets

[SuperDeadite]

"getting it"

You mean like most Cave games?

I'd say Treasure is a better example. ;)

[PunkCryborg]

I've tried newer shooters on multiple occasions but always go back to older stuff. I guess I don't get it either.

[Otaking]

Well if you like firework displays burnt into your retinas, epileptic fits and induced seizures maybe give some Touhou games a spin.

[SuperDeadite]

I don't find Cave's offerings to be a lot of fun in long term situations.  But the non-stop barrage of bullets is quite the adrenline rush in small bursts.  Meaning, as an actual arcade experience, it can be very awesome.  But their scoring systems are rather stupid and should be forgotten by 99% of players.

Radiant Silvergun is the ultimate overblown shooter imo.  Beyond graphics, style, and I suppose music, there is nothing good about that game.  People defend it to the death, but damn the gameplay is just horrid.

[jlued686]

Radiant Silvergun is the ultimate overblown shooter imo.  Beyond graphics, style, and I suppose music, there is nothing good about that game.  People defend it to the death, but damn the gameplay is just horrid.

Please elaborate.

[Arkhan Asylum]

SHUMP SHUMP SHUMP.


I like Gall Force for FDS or MSX
Steam Hearts for PCE/Saturn
Gulkave for MSX/stuff
Wings of Wor is cool
Phelios was fun although gimpy in comparison to the arcade
You also can't go wrong with Sol Feace on Sega CD
Tiger Heli for NES


man, Tiger Heli

oh, and Gun.Smoke

[SuperDeadite]

Radiant Silvergun is the ultimate overblown shooter imo.  Beyond graphics, style, and I suppose music, there is nothing good about that game.  People defend it to the death, but damn the gameplay is just horrid.

Please elaborate.

Ugh, do I really have to do this again?  Oh well,  in order to play RSG properly, you have to correctly chain the entire game.  If you don't chain, you will be far too weak, and the boss fights will go on for 20 mins or more each.  Meaning, to be good at RSG, you have to already be good at RSG.  IE, gameplay is shit.  Memorize every single enemy pattern or you are boned.  I can't imagine how anyone can find that enjoyable.

To make up for the garbage gameplay, the Saturn version allows you to save your levels and begin the game at the max powerup level.  So in other words, play long enough and you don't have to care anymore.  Not to mention it makes the first half of the game pointless.  No matter how you play it, it's broken.

[jlued686]

Sorry, I don't recall ever reading your opinion on Radiant Silvergun before. Please send me a link to "The Compendium of SuperDeadite's Opinions on Everything" and I'll peruse it before I ask you a question next time. ;)

But I can see why that gameplay style isn't for everyone. A friend of mine refers to it as a "puzzle shooter" and I agree. But calling the gameplay "shit" is a bit much, IMO. It's just a different style of shooter. It's really unique, it challenges my brain, and I love it for that.

[bartre]

Radiant Silvergun is the ultimate overblown shooter imo.  Beyond graphics, style, and I suppose music, there is nothing good about that game.  People defend it to the death, but damn the gameplay is just horrid.

Please elaborate.

Ugh, do I really have to do this again?  Oh well,  in order to play RSG properly, you have to correctly chain the entire game.  If you don't chain, you will be far too weak, and the boss fights will go on for 20 mins or more each.  Meaning, to be good at RSG, you have to already be good at RSG.  IE, gameplay is shit.  Memorize every single enemy pattern or you are boned.  I can't imagine how anyone can find that enjoyable.

To make up for the garbage gameplay, the Saturn version allows you to save your levels and begin the game at the max powerup level.  So in other words, play long enough and you don't have to care anymore.  Not to mention it makes the first half of the game pointless.  No matter how you play it, it's broken.

agreed, i totally agree here, RSG is way overblown.
I like Radilgy, though i haven't spent too much time with it yet.

my fave shmup though still probably goes to Sokyugurentai, love it.

[Arkhan Asylum]

alot of these new shooters are dumb.

I have Otomedius and it fucking annoys me how gimpy the game plays.

You don't get pixel perfect excitement.   You get slippery 3D bullshit with particle effects, so your mileage always varies.   It's lame.

[jlued686]

Fuck yes, Otomedius was TERRIBLE! I hate the shit out of that game.

As for Cave shooters, if you're not into the whole bullet hell thing, the Deathsmiles games are pretty cool. And yeah, Soukyugurentai is bad ass.

[SuperDeadite]

Sorry, I don't recall ever reading your opinion on Radiant Silvergun before. Please send me a link to "The Compendium of SuperDeadite's Opinions on Everything" and I'll peruse it before I ask you a question next time. ;)

"It's just a different style of shooter."

1.  You clearly need to hang out in chat more.
2.  I've heard that so many times.  I've owned the game for over 10 years, every year or so I pull it out hoping for something to change, but it still just isn't any fun to play.  I really don't consider memorization to be a puzzle, if anything it's a dancing game.  And I like to actually shoot stuff.  This is the direct opposite of RSG, where often you need to let enemies run off the screen, cause shooting the wrong ones screws you over.

[jlued686]

Different strokes, my friend.

(there is no chat).

[SuperDeadite]

?  There is a chat, and most of use are there every day.    Join us!

[jlued686]

Where? Over on Paul's site?

[SuperDeadite]

Where? Over on Paul's site?

Yes.

[Obfuscate]

The Games that Hooked me on Shooters were:

Gate of Thunder (I got the Duo the Christmas it came out and the game blew me away)
Soldier Blade (After having Gate of Thunder I bought Soldier Blade and liked that even more)

Other Turbo/PCE Shooters everyone should own:

Nexzr, Macross 2036, Lords of Thunder, Cotton, Rayxanber 2 and Spriggan.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I stopped going to the chat for awhile because every time I go its just 68k rambling.   Boring as hell.

[SuperDeadite]

I stopped going to the chat for awhile because every time I go its just 68k rambling.   Boring as hell.

Get one, join the party.  Then it's fun.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Not really.  I don't see the point of getting a 68k so I can talk to the other 2 owners of one about it, lol.

Plus, I had one before.  and an FM Downs.   Sold that shit because MSX and Turbob = betterbob

[Aggie Tsubi]

I'm not big on bullet hell shooters, so that'd probably make me an outcast in most shmup communities these days. Even though it's no shining example of the genre, I'd even take Otomedius over the average bullet hell if only because it plays more like classic shooters. I actually like having stage design to interact with, so when you got a bullet hell shooter with completely empty screens save for the enemies and bullets, I find it boring. They seem to revel in their cheapness too, while I prefer shooters that are challenging but not being intentionally unfair.

Anyway, the TwinBee games were the first shmups I really got addicted to. It's still my favorite shmup series. Pop'n TwinBee on Super Famicom is probably my favorite, but I love the PC Engine version of Detana! TwinBee as well, even more than the arcade original since the port is more balanced. My favorite shmup period is probably Dragon Spirit, but I'm actually not that big on the arcade or TG-16 versions. Even though it's a downgrade in graphics, the NES version is faster and tighter. As you can tell, I really like shmups with two planes of combat, shooting enemies in the sky and bombing enemies on land. As for horizontal shmups, I'd probably have to go with Gate of Thunder as my fave.

[Drakon]

Radian silvergun is confusing for sure.  I also don't find radiant silvergun to be a very fun experience.  But I do like watching superplays of radiant silvergun!

*edit* oh man I forgot to mention spriggan that game rules!  Especially on the pc engine cd.

Radiant Silvergun is the ultimate overblown shooter imo.  Beyond graphics, style, and I suppose music, there is nothing good about that game.  People defend it to the death, but damn the gameplay is just horrid.

Please elaborate.

Ugh, do I really have to do this again?  Oh well,  in order to play RSG properly, you have to correctly chain the entire game.  If you don't chain, you will be far too weak, and the boss fights will go on for 20 mins or more each.  Meaning, to be good at RSG, you have to already be good at RSG.  IE, gameplay is shit.  Memorize every single enemy pattern or you are boned.  I can't imagine how anyone can find that enjoyable.

To make up for the garbage gameplay, the Saturn version allows you to save your levels and begin the game at the max powerup level.  So in other words, play long enough and you don't have to care anymore.  Not to mention it makes the first half of the game pointless.  No matter how you play it, it's broken.

[HercTNT]

Aggie, i have never heard the term "bullet hell shooter" before. Its so true though, i don't know how anyone can find that frenetic action enjoyable. to each his own. I love 2d shumps, not really a huge fan of 3d ones. There are a few good ones, terminal velocity for dos comes to mind. Overall though i find the 2d ones much more enjoyable. For dos tyrian 2000 is the creme de la creme for me. Turbo just has so many its unreal. Turbo = shooter heaven for me. Drakon, agreed on spriggan, just an amazing game.

[Tatsujin]

In earlier times, they were also called bullet-sprayer.
I very much enjoyed the early times of these shooters. I believe batsugun was
a very early type of this spec. genre. which then was continued
by cave peeps after toaplan closed its doors.

Donpachi is probably still my fav. one, and it was also caves debut in that genre.

After that, this serie and all its mutant versions became more and more weird.
But i would say, that until late 90s the games were still much fun to play.

Also handraw graphx was more and more replaced by ugly prerender shit.

[FraGMarE]

Verts
-----
I'd probably say my favorite all-time shmup has still got to be Dangun Feveron.  I'm no Cave fanboy, by any means, but that game in particular is just gold.  It plays like one really long time-attack level, minus the time limit.  No gimmicks, just blow shit up as fast as possible and collect as many medals (discomen) as you can along the way.

Then I'd have to say Raiden II/DX... because sometimes, I'm masochistic, and like to be slowly and excruciatingly ground into dust by sniper bullets and slow-scrolling backgrounds.  :p


Horis
-----
I have always had a general dislike of the Darius games, but the one exception to that, Darius Gaiden, is probably my favorite all-time hori.

After that, it gets a little muddy.  It's a bit of a toss between various arcade and console shooters like R-Type, Thunderforce III/IV, Gate of Thunder, Aldynes, Gradius II, etc.

[SamIAm]

I've 1CC'd Radiant Silvergun in both arcade modes and almost in the Saturn mode.

If you can chain 3A, 3B, and 3C properly and beat those three bosses 100%, you'll already be strong enough at that moment to beat any boss in the game quickly enough, including the final boss. If you don't go out of your way to chain at any point but beat every boss 100% through the whole game, you'll be just fine. That goes for both gameplay modes. RS doesn't demand perfection to play it, it just demands that you don't completely suck.

Anyway, Soldier Blade is probably the most fun I've had with a PCE shooter. The pacing is just perfect. Aldynes on the Super Grafx is right behind it.

[Tatsujin]

wingleader to base, wingleader to base.

just a couple more shots.