Whats the name of and where can I find the video that has all the islamic people

[Flare65]

Whats the name of and where can I find the video that has all the islamic people mad and upset.

I heard it was on youtube.

Not looking to start a religion or bash any particular group of people in this thread.  Just want to know the name of the video and where I can see it.

[PunkCryborg]

I haven't seen it yet myself and I'm not supporting it or anything but there it is. I think this is just part of it though

[RegalSin]

I do not even want to deal with this zionist, anti-non-european, white-power bs,
crap anymore. The flat fact is that at one point in Europe all three religions all side by side.
This whole entire thing is hate bashing. It has already been exposed that non-heteroseuxals
are in fact hate bashing for no reason and wants to force people to like and love them. This film is one step in that direction.

When I was in college we were talking about hate crimes, and how our Bush damaged our nation. Like for example, thier is a group of Muslims in my area, and people were throwing rocks at the girls ( yes the girls muslims ) and in the same area their are many Catolics and Juridians.
So people walked with them, to ensure their safety.

These people are just making this movie, because they are convinced that we are at war with this religion, when we are at war with an idea. The original idea is by using force to convey people to Islam, However the idea should be, zionism war crimes is what led to what happened in 2001, and Bush sold everybody out.

I am not going to talk about this anymore. Their is a reason why they are called garbage women, and I am ain't talking about the young girls who will still be chased after,
while trillions of "28 days later" hags aren't going to be getting any.

Their is a saying for every Nerd a pornstar is born. I have a better saying.

For every player another Border Line Lesbian is born. I think that makes sense.

[kazekirifx]

I don't support the people who made the movie, and I agree it is hate bashing. But I think people who are so sensitive they kill over their religion being insulted are much worse than people who make hateful movies.

[Joe Redifer]

I don't care about the message of the movie and no one else should, either.  What they SHOULD care about is how awfully made this "movie" is.  Sound reverb on dialog that takes place in the desert?  No shadows?  This complete ignorance towards the craft of moviemaking makes me want to start a riot.

But the people going apeshit over this movie's message are idiots.

[RegalSin]

Why?

They pretty much are bashing all Western Religion that is non-european, in one swoop.
At the same time they are bashing,a key ideas of male heterosexualsim, and masculinity
Lastly I know they are bashing something else but I can't out my finge ron it.
I bet in an predominantly white school or college they are showing this movie.
This is like Mandingo or carbonhigh but backwards.

About how poor the film is made? What is poor and stupid is how they potray the peoples intellegence. I have seen worst films, but this one is worst then a bible studies film.
Seriously a bible or church film, this must have been made by one of those people.
The actors, I will admit the actors are doing a pretty good job, but what comes out of their mouths is actually worst. More negativitiy, and more.

Dammit youtube needs to be destroyed. Did you know that more then 50% of the internet has fell of the face of the earth since youtube, so most people usig the internet are just watching some sorta video website????

[kazekirifx]

Dammit youtube needs to be destroyed.

Dude. Seriously?

Did you know that more then 50% of the internet has fell of the face of the earth since youtube, so most people usig the internet are just watching some sorta video website????

I wouldn't be too surprised if youtube is using 50% of the bandwidth on the Net, but I don't think that necessarily means people don't use other Websites anymore.

[RegalSin]

The internet is just a bunch of junkies, thinking they are normal smart people but now they do not need to hire a web designer, or a person to convert video, They have youtube. Only web designers making big bucks are the ones working for companies or paysites.

[Emerald Rocker]

This movie is *not* the thing that incited the protests.  By blaming riots and murders on this film, the US government has insulted muslims, insulted the intelligence of US citizens, created a celebrity, and condemned that celebrity all in one fell swoop.  More than anything, I feel sorry for the actors who were unknowingly exploited (they didn't know the director was going to dub over their lines and turn it into an anti-Islam film).  Because of how the US government turned the film into a global scapegoat, those poor actors -- who did nothing wrong -- will be killed if they ever travel into that part of the world.

[RegalSin]

They were dubbed? If the actors were lied, to then we will be hearing about a law suit pretty soon.

[NecroPhile]

This movie is *not* the thing that incited the protests.  By blaming riots and murders on this film, the US government has insulted muslims, insulted the intelligence of US citizens, created a celebrity, and condemned that celebrity all in one fell swoop.  More than anything, I feel sorry for the actors who were unknowingly exploited (they didn't know the director was going to dub over their lines and turn it into an anti-Islam film).  Because of how the US government turned the film into a global scapegoat, those poor actors -- who did nothing wrong -- will be killed if they ever travel into that part of the world.

Riiiiiight, it's all the US government's fault.  Muslims the world 'round absolutely loved the film (as they love all things denigrating their beliefs and prophet), but then the sneaky gubmint told 'em to hate it.

[Emerald Rocker]

No, I'm saying the protests (and violent attacks) were based on other reasons, but the film ended up taking the blame -- and the US government played a large part in shaping that blame.

[Drakon]

If you watch it they'll put a jihad on you.

[RegalSin]

Jahad just means holy power............................Dammit it is the racist war all over again.

[rag-time4]

Along the lines of what Emerald Rocker was saying... There has been some talk that the assassination may have been carried out by Jamahiriya (Libya's former government) supporters. Despite the lack of coverage in the mainstream media, the civil war in Libya remains ongoing. I think the widespread support for the former government, which is particularly strong in western Libya, wont get a lot of coverage. With the demonization of Muammar Gadhafi, the installation of a puppet regime by NATO has been presented as some kind of sick victory for NATO and US foreign policy...

[roflmao]

Oh, geez.  That scared me.  I saw a Regal post and thought he was back for a second. 

Welcome back, rag-time4!

[rag-time4]

Oh, geez.  That scared me.  I saw a Regal post and thought he was back for a second. 

Welcome back, rag-time4!

ROFLMAO Thanks for the greeting!

After the assassination of the US ambassador in Benghazi, Libya, the situation is at least getting some coverage.... Though sadly its mostly coming from the right - with only a superficial treatment of the issue. One thing thats coming out is that the mass killings that were blamed on the government troops for propaganda purposes were actually perpetrated by the Islamist rebels:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/10/16/libya-new-proof-mass-killings-gaddafi-death-site

[HercTNT]

Funny really, good old Gadhafi sponsored the bombing of pan am flight 103 over lockerbie scotland. A civilian aircraft. Before he died, Gadhafi welcomed home the man responsible for the bombing as a national hero. Gadhafi was also responsible for selling arms and ammunition to the IRA who were using them on civilian targets. I don't know about the rest of whats going on over there, but tell me rag-time, in regards to Gadhafi, how do you demonize a demon?  This is kinda like your other rant, you say that you don't believe in or condone this kinda behavior, yet you feel that Gadhafi was unjustly demonized? Are you not aware of how much blood he has on his hands? You live in this country right. If were so bad, and guys like Gadhafi are so good, what are you doing here?

[rag-time4]

Funny really, good old Gadhafi sponsored the bombing of pan am flight 103 over lockerbie scotland. A civilian aircraft. Before he died, Gadhafi welcomed home the man responsible for the bombing as a national hero. Gadhafi was also responsible for selling arms and ammunition to the IRA who were using them on civilian targets. I don't know about the rest of whats going on over there, but tell me rag-time, in regards to Gadhafi, how do you demonize a demon?  This is kinda like your other rant, you say that you don't believe in or condone this kinda behavior, yet you feel that Gadhafi was unjustly demonized? Are you not aware of how much blood he has on his hands? You live in this country right. If were so bad, and guys like Gadhafi are so good, what are you doing here?

I dont believe Muammar Gadhafi sponsored the Lockerbie bombing at all. I believe his position was that the conviction was a bad one, and that the Libyan who was released should never have been imprisoned because he was not guilty.

I dont believe Muammar Gadhafi was a demon at all. Quite the contrary, he was always pushed his country to invest in African development as well as African political integration. I dont know much about Libyas relationship with the IRA, but I would be interested in reading about it. On the US side, I know that Ronald Reagan supported Saddam Hussein, and also continued Jimmy Carters policy of arming and supporting Osama Bin laden and other islamist extremists in Afghanistan as they fought the USSR.

During the W Bush administration, Libya agreed to partner with the US in fighting Islamist terrorism, and dismantled its WMD programs. Libyan citizens had access to universal higher education, housing, and healthcare under the former socialist government and the country had no national debt... though the citizens did not enjoy high standards of individual liberty. Libya was willing to partner against Islamist terrorism because the terrorists are/were the most bitter enemies of the former government.

Under the former government, Libya had the highest material standard of living in all Africa by many measures, such as literacy etc.

Why should I leave simply because I dont like the policies my country is undertaking? Id rather do my part to try to change things... Thats what democracy is supposed to be about!!

Anyway, with regards to Muammar Gadhafi, how can you demonize someone who did so much good? You say openly you dont actually know much about the situation in Libya... My position is that the bulk of the rebel fighters, and likely all of the leadership, are in fact terrorists. All of the mass killings we heard so much about that were blamed on the government were in fact committed by the rebels - and in addition, the soldiers and security personnel showed a pattern of restraint, including the early days of the rebellion before NATO bombs started falling.

[HercTNT]

You must be trolling, you have to be. The whole reason we helped remove him from power, at the request of france and germany, was because he was shooting his own people. Now thats what i call a saint. As for the IRA, he publicly supported them. If you knew what you were saying at all, you would be aware of that. Go read up on it, then come back and tell me how great he is.

[PCEngineHell]

Along the lines of what Emerald Rocker was saying... There has been some talk that the assassination may have been carried out by Jamahiriya (Libya's former government) supporters. Despite the lack of coverage in the mainstream media, the civil war in Libya remains ongoing. I think the widespread support for the former government, which is particularly strong in western Libya, wont get a lot of coverage. With the demonization of Muammar Gadhafi, the installation of a puppet regime by NATO has been presented as some kind of sick victory for NATO and US foreign policy...

I'm confused, just in what way does a over a year old reporting video have any bearing on the current situation exactly? Could you not find any recent news report compilations to better reflect the current situation? A year old video doesn't exactly confirm anything, and to be honest, you are talking almost as if you are reporting from ground zero. WTF are you, some kind of weekend warrior reporter all the sudden, similar to Geraldo, except commenting from afar in your den where its safe? You going to do a PCEFX special news report, show us where Gadhafi's hidden vaults are next, and film it in your backyard?  

And look, all things considered, I really was not for getting involved in another conflict on that side of the world. Considering how spread thin we are economically and military wise, from that POV alone it seemed like a bad idea. And I didn't want us to just hand a victory over to a upstart group we did not know much about, so for me, our country jumping into yet another conflict on another's behalf so soon seemed like a bad idea. But regardless, it would have been in poor taste to just sit aside and do nothing while so many civilians were being killed when we could actually help prevent it to some degree.

I mean fuck Rags, demonizing Gadhafi, really, are you fucking kidding me? The guy didn't need anyone to demonize him. He built his own notoriety up on his own over the years. By stating that demonizing bit, you kind of downplay every victim that had fallen to him, his regime,  and his death squads. Every rape perpetrated by them. Every crime ever committed, every murder. And there has been more then enough people to come forward to the press to testify about said crimes. You think half the country just came down with a sudden spell of delusions concerning all that crap, or that so many people would just lie about that shit? You think the mass graves filled with corpses with bullet wounds made themselves over the years? You think you could honestly confront some of these victims family members and say "Gadhafi was demonized" and come away with a clear conscience?

And as Herc said, you hate living here, gtfo. Go move to Iran, or Syria for that matter, and let us know how much better it is over there after you have spent a year or two in said countries. I anxiously await your report on ground zero Rags Muslim Paradise and how fucking epic it is there for you. I'm not Capt. America by any means, but seriously Rags, you sound like a moronic poser. The fucking anti US rhetoric from confused, white, weekend warrior Muslims, who grew up comfortably in the very same country they seem to despise, who think they know exactly how it really is in parts of the world they have never once visited, who have never bled nor sweated for no one else's cause, let alone their own, outside of standing in line for the next game system release, gets pretty fucking old rather fucking fast.

[Emerald Rocker]

Just popping in to say "I told you so! (a month ago)" to anyone who didn't believe me, when I said that a Youtube video was *not* the cause of all this.

[rag-time4]

You must be trolling, you have to be. The whole reason we helped remove him from power, at the request of france and germany, was because he was shooting his own people. Now thats what i call a saint. As for the IRA, he publicly supported them. If you knew what you were saying at all, you would be aware of that. Go read up on it, then come back and tell me how great he is.

The people being shot were attacking military sites. From the beginning of the uprising, the terrorists attacked police stations and army barracks etc with the aim of stealing weapons. Herc, you seem totally ignorant of the accomplishments of the Jamahiriya government, you only mention things you find negative. Even if true, Gadhafi's public support of the IRA is certainly comparable to the US support of Saddam Hussein, Osama bin ladin, up to the Saudi crushing violently the uprising in Bahrain: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/bahrain/index.html

You accuse Gadhafi of personally shooting his own people as if he was walking around with a rifle gunning people down simply for daring to protest. You neglect to acknowledge the fact that the rebellion in Libya was a violent uprising from the beginning, and many police and soldiers lost their lives as well - some victims of mass execution.

To say that "I must be trolling" is a weak, cowardly personal attack. Are you so terrified of an opposing, evidence-based viewpoint, that you cant respond in a more tolerant, intellectual manner? The civil war in Libya is a fairly major historical event, which is still unfolding with US involvement. My goal is not to incite you or anyone else... My goal is only to present an alternative view to counter the massive lies and propaganda pumped out by the mainstream.

Prof, I posted that older video because it shows a clear pattern of behavior among the rebel terrorists, complementing the Human Rights Watch report that came out only a few days ago.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/10/16/libya-new-proof-mass-killings-gaddafi-death-site

The report itself is written with an anti-Gaddafi slant, yet documents substantial evidence showing that the rebels were guilty of atrocity and war crimes.

Here is an excellent 2-part video, about 20 minutes total, which shows evidence of several key points: 1) Jamahiriya troops showed a pattern of restraint, and by and large only shot people in self defense 2) The rebellion was violent almost from the beginning, and showed strong signs of being a pre-planned, coordinated effort (contrary to the propaganda that taking up arms was spontaneous) 3) Rebel terrorists had a clear pattern of executing captives on mass, including non-uniformed captives 4) Rebel terrorists, after seizing weapons from government police stations and barracks, dug themselves in within various city centers, effectively taking large numbers of civilians hostage, and providing useful fuel for propaganda that the government troops were attacking civilians when it can clearly be argued that the government was trying to protect the citizens from violence at the hands of armed gangs and islamist terrorists. (Black civilians were particularly vulnerable)

Video part 1:

Video part 2:

Prof, you accuse me of anti-US rhetoric, yet you slam the Libyan Jamihirya as though it had no supporters and no accomplishments. Why pretend that the US doesnt have a mixed record, like any other country? The US should improve on her shortfalls the same as any other nation, yet when criticism is brought up by someone like me, I get demonized as well ... Told to "gtfo" etc... And you want me to move to Syria (currently under attack by US/NATO backed terrorists) or Iran (next in the US firing line)....

Here is neo-conservative commentator glenn beck in a recent video explaining how the US is working with terrorists in Lybia and Syria:

Glenn Beck is certainly not muslim. Does he hate America for daring to say that the US is supporting terrorists? Biggest problem with Beck and others is theyre playing too much into the broken 2-party system and scapegoating Obama when Romney would be doing the exact same thing.

Also Prof, you throw a lot of personal attacks at me for being a white muslim and having a strong opinion on Libya despite having never been there, as though this legitimizes your mainstream-based opinion. But its not me thats putting the evidence out there. Human rights watch is telling you what happened. Videos taken by the rebels themselves and civilian witnesses tell the story after being analyzed. As the fog of war lifts, more of the truth will come out. Also, Muammar Gaddafi and the Libyan Jamahiriya have always been very good friends of the Nation of Islam here in America. My character judgement of Muammar Gaddafi is informed primarily by that relationship, as well as his consistent advocacy for a strong, independent, and united Africa. Libya was a destination country for black migrant workers, and black Libyans thought enough of the Jamahiriya to make up a significant portion of the police and armed forces.

[Sadler]

rag-time, have you ever been outside the US? If so, where and for how long?

[Emerald Rocker]

Louis Farrakhan is a massive racist.

[HercTNT]

I Thought about replying, then realized we have just one more regal-sin. You can't talk to people like this.

[Bernie]

This damn thread needs to be locked..  I swear.

[PCEngineHell]

I have no main stream based opinion Rags. I am neither a Democrat, or a Republican, I don't vote for anyone in either party, because I don't care to compromise myself by choosing the lesser of two evils when I care for nothing either party is offering me.  I simply don't care to get caught up in such things, nor believe everything I see on TV simply because its on there. I also am by no means 100 percent Pro USA, USA DOES NOTHING WRONG, and I thought I made that clear when I mentioned that I by no means am Capt. fucking America.

We have plenty of faults ourselves, from slavery, equal rights issues, giving black men syphilis, to maintaining Japanese detention centers during WWII, to treating returning soldiers from Nam like shit, and on and on and on. I don't need to run though the entire list of the United States faults just to make you aware that is how I feel, nor do I need to run through the entire list of positives you mentioned regarding that dictatorship, because the positives don't make up for the minuses, and its not my job to defend them, nor would I. The main difference here is you don't have to deal with even a shred of the same hardships others in Muslims countries have to live with daily. You're country, for all its faults, doesn't send someone to kill you because you decided to go down to 5th Avenue with a cardboard sign protesting how you feel you have been wronged by Obama or Bush or whomever. As bad as we are, we are still quite a few steps above many other countries. You grew up white, privileged compared to most youths in other countries, and your worst concern growing up was just typical every day bullshit.

Like I said, why don't you travel your wannabe ass to Libya, Iran, or Syria, and do some actual research yourself. Get in the shit, hear peoples first hand accounts. Do some missionary work. You wont though, its easier to dismiss the victims suffering from afar because you happened to like the values of the dictator that was in power. You also have no first hand experience with the people you are defending. You have not bled for their cause. You're just a weekend warrior, supporting them from afar with a few good words and some silent prayers that do no one a lick of good other then to make you feel better about yourself.

You want to be a REAL fucking Muslim? Then try living in a real Muslims world, not just sitting on the sidelines reading books about how to eat like a Muslim and enjoying Muslim cuisine in-between prayer and visits to the local arcade. You grew up in the USA. Your typical worst problems are fucking first world problems unless something major happens like cancer. You never had to worry about being dragged out into a street and shot depending on who was in power any given day of the week. You have not had to worry about having to sell your kids into some shity marriage to keep your family going. You have not had to worry about the Taliban coming to your village and stoning your daughter to death because she wanted to learn to fucking read and go to school. Until you do, or until you travel and get some REAL first hand experience, not just crap you see on youtube, you are just nothing more then a typical white poser living in a privileged society maintaining the same old tired anti-US rhetoric, with NOTHING worth complaining about compared to those from afar whom you seem to either disparage or idolize, depending on what side of the regime they were on.

[rag-time4]

rag-time, have you ever been outside the US? If so, where and for how long?

Yes Sadler, I've been to the Phillipines twice for about a month each time.

[PCEngineHell]

rag-time, have you ever been outside the US? If so, where and for how long?

Yes Sadler, I've been to the Phillipines twice for about a month each time.

Yeah, real life changing hardships there on your vacation to meet your wife and her family. I swear..... 

[Sadler]

So you haven't spent any time with Libyans? What about Syrians? You spent a couple months in the Phillipines and somehow that makes you an authority on ME policy? Between this and your comparisons of the US to Nazi Germany, I've pretty much lost all respect for your opinion. Questioning the US is fine, like I've said before, we've done horrible shit. Your quickness to liken us to the very worst the world has ever seen, while at the same time glorifying dictators who killed massive amounts of not only their own country men, but our own is ridiculous. Take the blinders off.

[rag-time4]

Prof, thanks for that response, very fair on your part. I applaud you for not buying into the 2-party system, for what its worth.

The one major thing I'm disgreeing on with regards to Libya is that you argue that the rebels are "victims". You say that I dismiss the victims, but I see my position differently. In reality the Libyan people as a whole are victims of this civil war. Civilians who resist the NATO backed regime are now subject to extreme violence and murder. Here is amnesty international reporting on the buildup of terrorist forces around the town of Bani Walid, which has been under siege for the past several weeks:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/libyan-authorities-must-avoid-unnecessary-and-excessive-use-force-bani-walid-2012-10-05

Here is a report on the siege, that mentions how the town has resisted the authority of the NATO backed regime

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10489681

Prof, I believe your statement about people being shot in Libya for demonstrating peacefully is factually incorrect. Here is a human rights watch report that does criticize Jamahiriya security personnel for arresting and beating people with batons:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/02/16/libya-arrests-assaults-advance-planned-protests

This is not really any different from the way occupy protesters were dealt with here in the US in many places, particularly here in Oakland, CA. The human rights watch report does mention one person dying in "the ensuing violence"... Seems likely that this involved a violent assault on security personnel, though the report does not clearly describe that violence. People were not killed in large numbers until people started attacking military sites and stealing weapons, and both sides suffered casualties.

EDIT~ I noticed that the above human rights watch article mentioned a 2006 protest on February 16 where 12 people were killed by Jamahiriya security forces, so I looked up that protest to see what went down. Quite interestingly, the people who were killed were part of a splinter group that broke away from the main protest and violently attacked the Italian embassy. The protest itself had nothing to do with the Jamahiriya system - it was a protest about a cartoon with a negative image of prophet Mumammad (pbuh).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4726204.stm

So you haven't spent any time with Libyans? What about Syrians? You spent a couple months in the Phillipines and somehow that makes you an authority on ME policy? Between this and your comparisons of the US to Nazi Germany, I've pretty much lost all respect for your opinion. Questioning the US is fine, like I've said before, we've done horrible shit. Your quickness to liken us to the very worst the world has ever seen, while at the same time glorifying dictators who killed massive amounts of not only their own country men, but our own is ridiculous. Take the blinders off.

And how many Libyans have you met? I did meet a young kid from Libya earlier this year who came to the US last year (during the conflict). He's in his early twenties. His coming here had very little to do with the conflict - he actually came over to meet an American girl he had met on the internet. He said he had been working in Malta before coming over, and he told me his family was very upset with his decision. He couldnt have been more oblivious about the rebellion, and didnt have strong feelings either way about the jamahiriya government... Just like a lot of young people here are politically aloof. Part of being young I guess.

Sadler, you said its ok to question the US, but do you draw the line at criticism? Its ok to question, but not to criticize? How about outright condemnation of certain US policies? Also, Im presenting a lot of evidence in this thread, not merely stating my opinion. Granted, people can look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions. You say the holocaust was the worst thing that ever happened, I think the slave trade / native american genocide + relocation combo is worse. But thats just a difference of opinion. We agree all of the above are horrible. For me thats good enough, Im not one to denigrate your opinion that the holocaust was worse.

I dont feel I'm glorifying Muammar Gadaffi here, nor the jamihiriya government. I think I'm presenting an evidence based argument against the bogus official story, repeated ad nauseum by the mainstream media (including al jazeera) that the jamahiriya military and security forces were engaged in mass slaughter of civilians. I also states earlier, and will state again here, that neither Muammar gadaffi nor the jamahiriya government were strong advocates of individual liberty by any means. I know that people were jailed, beaten, and even killed at times for dissent. That happens here too... Remember Fred Hampton and Mark Clark of the black panthers, for example? All I have done is present some of the jamahiriya's positive accomplishments, and I'm willing to praise Muammar Gaddafi and the jamahiriya government for being progressive on issues of race, African independence, and women's rights.

If others say that the negatives outweigh the positives, thats fair enough... But to totally put blinders on regarding the positives, your analysis will lead to an inherently flawed and biased judgement. Considering both the positives and negatives would lead to a more accurate and honest assessment, even if its the same. It may also lead to a different policy decision.

[HercTNT]

So you haven't spent any time with Libyans? What about Syrians? You spent a couple months in the Phillipines and somehow that makes you an authority on ME policy? Between this and your comparisons of the US to Nazi Germany, I've pretty much lost all respect for your opinion. Questioning the US is fine, like I've said before, we've done horrible shit. Your quickness to liken us to the very worst the world has ever seen, while at the same time glorifying dictators who killed massive amounts of not only their own country men, but our own is ridiculous. Take the blinders off.

Its typical U.S. bashing. He has not said a word about china, or russia, or darfur. Calls me a coward for calling out Gadhafi, but does not seem to have a problem with Gadhafi's involvement with the IRA, or the rape rooms (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2076775,00.html) or the torture chambers (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030931/Libya-Inside-Gaddafis-torture-chamber-The-bloodstained-cells-inside-primary-school-used-brutalise-enemies.html).

This is not a pissing contest rag, i don't care about your religion, and like the professor i'm aware that the u.s. has not always done the right thing. But neither has anyone else on this planet.  Darfur is a mess of death, rape, and genocide. Saddam was killing his own people by the thousands with mustard gas. Russians storm old block nations killing anyone who disagree with there policy. China is a humanitarian nightmare. Iran sentences anyone to death that speaks out against the regime. Syria is killing civilians in the streets. You make no mention of any of that, just hate hate hate those damned americans. For the record, i have zero issues, with muslims or middle easterners of any kind. you seem to think i do, because i disagree with your clearly one sided view of a known terrorist and murderer. Somehow you turned that into my blanket hate for islam. The difference is, i know our country has made its mistakes, but were not the only ones, and you can't seem to find any fault with your side at all.

I said i would not reply and i lied, guess you bring out the best in me rag.

[rag-time4]

So you haven't spent any time with Libyans? What about Syrians? You spent a couple months in the Phillipines and somehow that makes you an authority on ME policy? Between this and your comparisons of the US to Nazi Germany, I've pretty much lost all respect for your opinion. Questioning the US is fine, like I've said before, we've done horrible shit. Your quickness to liken us to the very worst the world has ever seen, while at the same time glorifying dictators who killed massive amounts of not only their own country men, but our own is ridiculous. Take the blinders off.

Its typical U.S. bashing. He has not said a word about china, or russia, or darfur. Calls me a coward for calling out Gadhafi, but does not seem to have a problem with Gadhafi's involvement with the IRA, or the rape rooms (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2076775,00.html) or the torture chambers (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2030931/Libya-Inside-Gaddafis-torture-chamber-The-bloodstained-cells-inside-primary-school-used-brutalise-enemies.html).

This is not a pissing contest rag, i don't care about your religion, and like the professor i'm aware that the u.s. has not always done the right thing. But neither has anyone else on this planet.  Darfur is a mess of death, rape, and genocide. Sakddam was killing his own people by the thousands with mustard gas. Russians storm old block nations killing anyone who disagree with there policy. China is a humanitarian nightmare. Iran sentences anyone to death that speaks out against the regime. Syria is killing civilians in the streets. You make no mention of any of that, just hate hate hate those damned americans. For the record, i have zero issues, with muslims or middle easterners of any kind. you seem to think i do, because i disagree with your clearly one sided view of a known terrorist and murderer. Somehow you turned that into my blanket hate for islam. The difference is, i know our country has made its mistakes, but were not the only ones, and you can't seem to find any fault with your side at all.

I said i would not reply and i lied, guess you bring out the best in me rag.

Herc, Where did I say anything about you hating Islam?

And why do you accuse me of hating Americans or advocating hatred of Americans?

As I posted earlier, even glenn beck says the US is supporting terrorists in Libya and Syria. Does he also hate Americans? Here is another link for convenience:

I didnt mention china, russia, syria et al because i Understood the topic of the thread to be Libya. In general I agree with your statements on each of these countries, except that in Syria's case, another heavily armed uprising is taking place, with weapons illegally smuggled in from Libya according to Glenn Beck in the above vid.

To respond to the two links... Firstly, on the alleged torture chamber ... do you believe that the American CIA and other secret police institutions never practice torture? How about at guantanamo or abu ghraib? And most importantly, how can you be sure that the blood was from someone tortured or bloodied at the hands of the rebels? On the rape article, did you see where the article clearly states that there was a lot of trouble coming up with evidence? I would bet that 90-100% of all rapes during the conflict were committed by either the rebels or unaffiliated criminals.

You accuse me of not being able to find any fault at all with "my side", but thats clearly not the case. Ive mentioned twice now that the jamahiriya government and Muammar Gaddafi were not champions of individual liberty. People have been beaten, jailed, and even killed at times by libyan government over the past 42 years, sometimes unjustly but sometimes justly. The main issue at hand here is the 2011 civil war. In my view, the official story is BS, and the jamahiriya government and muammar gaddafi were not responsible for the vast majority - if any at all - of the mass executions and other war crimes. The parties most guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity were the islamist terrorists, who operated in the conflict with the backing of the US and NATO. My opinion is not based on wild hatred for America... Its based on the evidence.

~EDIT Herc, for the record I called you a coward not for "calling out Gaddafi" but rather for your personal attack that i'm trolling. Mock me as an armchair QB if you must, but I strongly disgree with the interventionist foreign policy. Despite having never been to Libya, I do have an interest in what happens there and I follow it more than any other foreign country.

[HercTNT]

I got more, you also accused the United States of backing Osama bid laden. This is also not true. you ever hear of charlie wilsons war? No? let me tell you. the US did not want to back afghanistan afraid of another vietnam. But senator charlie wilson decided to aid afghanistan due to the fact the russians were raping and murdering. The russians would drag people out in the street and make their families watch as they drove over them with tanks. Charlie knew they had no chance without better weapons so he convinced the egyptians, Yes the egyptians, to provide the afghans with weapons so as to not give the appearance of the US being involved. So The US did not back osama bid laden (he was a soldier in the war against the russians yes), Charlie wilson backed afghanistan against the russians. So if your gonna hate on the US, you need to decry egypt as well for helping do you not? Don't make such statements without knowing the history, and without laying blame to all parties involved, not just the ones you choose to hate. Am i wrong? go do your homework, then come back.

If you understood the topic to be about libya in general, (it was not, it was about your glorifying of Gadhafi that i commented on, go back and look), then why did you throw in all the other political crap like you did in the other thread?  Your all over the place, and thats called trolling.

[rag-time4]

I got more, you also accused the United States of backing Osama bid laden. This is also not true. you ever hear of charlie wilsons war? No? let me tell you. the US did not want to back afghanistan afraid of another vietnam. But senator charlie wilson decided to aid afghanistan due to the fact the russians were raping and murdering. The russians would drag people out in the street and make their families watch as they drove over them with tanks. Charlie knew they had no chance without better weapons so he convinced the egyptians, Yes the egyptians, to provide the afghans with weapons so as to not give the appearance of the US being involved. So The US did not back osama bid laden (he was a soldier in the war against the russians yes), Charlie wilson backed afghanistan against the russians. So if your gonna hate on the US, you need to decry egypt as well for helping do you not? Don't make such statements without knowing the history, and without laying blame to all parties involved, not just the ones you choose to hate. Am i wrong? go do your homework, then come back.

If you understood the topic to be about libya in general, (it was not, it was about your glorifying of Gadhafi that i commented on, go back and look), then why did you throw in all the other political crap like you did in the other thread?  Your all over the place, and thats called trolling.

So Charlie wilson was the only one in the US government who wanted to support Islamist terrorists, including Osama bin Laden as you admit, in Afghanistan?

I didnt bring in other political crap, you guys did when you accused me of hating America and started mentioning the other thread. Why are you accusing me of bringing in outside topics when thats on you guys?

[PCEngineHell]

Prof, thanks for that response, very fair on your part. I applaud you for not buying into the 2-party system, for what its worth.

The one major thing I'm disgreeing on with regards to Libya is that you argue that the rebels are "victims". You say that I dismiss the victims, but I see my position differently. In reality the Libyan people as a whole are victims of this civil war. Civilians who resist the NATO backed regime are now subject to extreme violence and murder. Here is amnesty international reporting on the buildup of terrorist forces around the town of Bani Walid, which has been under siege for the past several weeks:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/libyan-authorities-must-avoid-unnecessary-and-excessive-use-force-bani-walid-2012-10-05

Here is a report on the siege, that mentions how the town has resisted the authority of the NATO backed regime

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10489681

Prof, I believe your statement about people being shot in Libya for demonstrating peacefully is factually incorrect. Here is a human rights watch report that does criticize Jamahiriya security personnel for arresting and beating people with batons:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/02/16/libya-arrests-assaults-advance-planned-protests

This is not really any different from the way occupy protesters were dealt with here in the US in many places, particularly here in Oakland, CA. The human rights watch report does mention one person dying in "the ensuing violence"... Seems likely that this likely involved a violent assault on security personnel, though the report does not clearly describe that violence. People were not killed in large numbers until people started attacking military sites and stealing weapons, and both sides suffered casualties.

Oh no, that's where you are totally wrong. You need to slow the fuck down and read shit before you decide to post. I never once said that the rebels are victims, and had in fact stated I did not feel comfortable supporting a group I knew next to nothing about. I said the civilians are victims, and I saw no reason why we could not at least interfere to some extent on their behalf to help keep the causalities down on their end. I have also said YOU don't have to fear being dragged out and shot for protesting, compared to the typical Muslim who may in different countries in the Middle East and elsewhere in the Muslim world. Stop being in a rush to post, stuffing words into peoples mouth, and actually read what they have to say before replying back, and no, this thread is not solely dedicated to Libya, don't be so naive. And if you want to post links, post more then the ones that simply state only the things you want to hear, and only paint a fraction of the picture. It just makes you come off as one-sided, moronic, and gullible all in one fell swoop.

There has been more then enough civilians, NOT REBELS, who have made statements to the press about their family members being murdered by Gaddafis regime over the years, and mass graves of had been found of people tortured and executed. Men, women, and children both. You think its ok to dismiss it as untrue simply because these people didn't have the fucking internet for the past 30 years, Facebook, youtube, webcams and digital cameras and ways to show what the hell they have to endure?

And as far as Gaddafi supporting terrorism, that was well known. I knew about that shit even when I was a kid. He was very outspoken about supporting and providing finances to multiple terrorist type groups, including The New People's Army, the Jeff Fort's Al-Rukn flunkies, the IRA, Moro Islamic Liberation Front, and supporting their attacks on innocent by-standards along with whomever else. He made no effort in fact to hide this activity, and spoke of it often during the years. He did not turn against terrorism until he decided to improve his image to get sanctions removed(how self serving), and in the process extremist groups turned on him (oh the irony).

As stated prior, time for you to shut up and get to packing for your big trip to Muslim Paradise so you can see how things really are over there. Get back to us in a couple of years after you ACTUALLY visit to Libya, Syria, and Iran so you can tell us all how totally wrong we are, and how much more awesomer and stuff those places are compared to your home country of evil infidels, processed food, Xbaux360, and 100 percent totally corrupt governments. Be sure to send us postcards too.

[PCEngineHell]

So Charlie wilson was the only one in the US government who wanted to support Islamist terrorists, including Osama bin Laden as you admit, in Afghanistan?

Regan dedicating a space-shuttle launch to the struggle of a countries people as they fight for freedom is hardly the same thing as supporting Bin Laden, by name no less, let alone Islamist terrorist. You are grasping for straws there and coming up totally empty handed. So fucking lame.  

I didnt bring in other political crap, you guys did when you accused me of hating America and started mentioning the other thread. Why are you accusing me of bringing in outside topics when thats on you guys?

Go back and read your own post. The whole reason I jumped into this thread is because that's exactly what you did. We stated the obvious, based on your numerous complaints of our country and your undying support for a now dead brutal dictator and his shity murder machine of a regime. You don't like people jumping down your throat, then don't say stupid uneducated shit poser.

[HercTNT]

I got more, you also accused the United States of backing Osama bid laden. This is also not true. you ever hear of charlie wilsons war? No? let me tell you. the US did not want to back afghanistan afraid of another vietnam. But senator charlie wilson decided to aid afghanistan due to the fact the russians were raping and murdering. The russians would drag people out in the street and make their families watch as they drove over them with tanks. Charlie knew they had no chance without better weapons so he convinced the egyptians, Yes the egyptians, to provide the afghans with weapons so as to not give the appearance of the US being involved. So The US did not back osama bid laden (he was a soldier in the war against the russians yes), Charlie wilson backed afghanistan against the russians. So if your gonna hate on the US, you need to decry egypt as well for helping do you not? Don't make such statements without knowing the history, and without laying blame to all parties involved, not just the ones you choose to hate. Am i wrong? go do your homework, then come back.

If you understood the topic to be about libya in general, (it was not, it was about your glorifying of Gadhafi that i commented on, go back and look), then why did you throw in all the other political crap like you did in the other thread?  Your all over the place, and thats called trolling.

So Charlie wilson was the only one in the US government who wanted to support Islamist terrorists, including Osama bin Laden as you admit, in Afghanistan?

I didnt bring in other political crap, you guys did when you accused me of hating America and started mentioning the other thread. Why are you accusing me of bringing in outside topics when thats on you guys?

Who the hell knows, do you, go look it up and find out. why do you keep dodging the fact that others were involved. How about egypt? You said we supported Osama bin laden. We did not, we supported the Afghans against the russians. Why did you dodge that? So it was Islamist terrorists taht were fighting the russians? why no hate for the russians? We did not have problems with Bin laden until the war was over and the taliban took control. And you can ditch the youtube crap, obviously if its on youtube it must be true right? And more importantly, my statement to you, in the beginning was about gadhafi, you replied with a blanket statement about nato, the uniteds states and a whole bunch of other crap.

Why is it, when you say bad shit about the United states is proof? Why is it when you see bad stuff about Gadhafi its alleged? Thats not called one sided?  Even better, why talk such bad shit about americans anyways. Hate the leaders if you want. I'm not thrilled with the people running iran, but i got nothing against its people. Gadhafi was a murderer, but thats not the libyans fault.

[nectarsis]

Also, Muammar Gaddafi and the Libyan Jamahiriya have always been very good friends of the Nation of Islam here in America. My character judgement of Muammar Gaddafi is informed primarily by that relationship, as well as his consistent advocacy for a strong, independent, and united Africa.

Wow sounds HUGELY biased to me....yet you want people to think you go at things with a completely open mind 

[rag-time4]

Prof, sorry if I misrepresented your position on the rebels. I agree completely that the civilians are the victims. Im presenting links that support my position, youre right. My position is that the official story on the 2011 conflict is BS. When it was happening, mainstream media almost unanimously was blaming all atrocities and civilian suffering on Muammar Gaddafi and the jamahiriya, or would falsely say that atrocities were committed by "both sides". The jamihiriya army re-took control of several cities, then would be pushed back, and there was no evidence of any atrocities committed by government forces, but many cases of mass executions by rebel forces.

Interesting that you note that Islamist extremist groups turned on Gaddafi and the jamahiriya government... The fact is that they were always a factor in Libyan domestic politics. Did they have no influence on government policy over the years, and was Gaddafi responsible for atrocities more than they were? You state correctly that Gaddafi did push Libya away from supporting terrorist groups, but why do you accuse him of being self serving over promoting the interests of the people, who would benefit greatly from removal of sanctions? And why not give credit for making a good, progressive change away from earlier militancy that resulted in many innocent people being caught in the crossfire? To me, thats just as fair (unfair) as not acknowledging American progress where its due. Maybe morally its much different for you, since in America we dont have a single person in public office for 42 years, so one politician cant be personally responsible for bad policy in prior years. I would argue that there may be moral room for those in other systems to be judged a little differently... But even if we judge Muammar Gaddafi for people hurt as an effect of his decisions, why throw out the whole system of government? Surely greater crimes were committed as matters of official policy, such as slavery. Should we therefore throw out the Constitution? Im not advocating for that.

As far as the space shuttle reference, I used that because I thought Hercs statement that the US didnt want to support Islamist fighters in Afghanistan was rather comical. ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI (who just so happens to serve the Obama administration!!) stated that the US moved immedeately to meet with pakistan to plan a dual response that would ensure expensive, prolonged fighting for the USSR. This policy began under Carter, Reagan could have stopped it were he actually opposed: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/coldwar/interviews/episode-17/brzezinski2.html

Also, Muammar Gaddafi and the Libyan Jamahiriya have always been very good friends of the Nation of Islam here in America. My character judgement of Muammar Gaddafi is informed primarily by that relationship, as well as his consistent advocacy for a strong, independent, and united Africa.

Wow sounds HUGELY biased to me....yet you want people to think you go at things with a completely open mind 

Nowhere in the thread did I state that I go in with a completely open mind. I go in with an opposite bias to that of the mainstream official story, which is blatantly anti-Gaddafi and anti-jamahiriya. Bias revealed, my argument here is supported by mainstream sources, or in the case of that 2-part vid primary video sources.

[nectarsis]

Wow sounds HUGELY biased to me....yet you want people to think you go at things with a completely open mind 

Nowhere in the thread did I state that I go in with a completely open mind. I go in with an opposite bias to that of the mainstream official story, which is blatantly anti-Gaddafi and anti-jamahiriya. Bias revealed, my argument here is supported by mainstream sources, or in the case of that 2-part vid primary video sources.[/quote]
Yet you have played that card numerous times on various subjects.   You can't believe the "truth" (especially if it's opposite to what "FACTS" you "KNOW") going in with a predisposition, that OBVIOUSLY has you SEVERELY jaded to think/believe one way.

[rag-time4]

I got more, you also accused the United States of backing Osama bid laden. This is also not true. you ever hear of charlie wilsons war? No? let me tell you. the US did not want to back afghanistan afraid of another vietnam. But senator charlie wilson decided to aid afghanistan due to the fact the russians were raping and murdering. The russians would drag people out in the street and make their families watch as they drove over them with tanks. Charlie knew they had no chance without better weapons so he convinced the egyptians, Yes the egyptians, to provide the afghans with weapons so as to not give the appearance of the US being involved. So The US did not back osama bid laden (he was a soldier in the war against the russians yes), Charlie wilson backed afghanistan against the russians. So if your gonna hate on the US, you need to decry egypt as well for helping do you not? Don't make such statements without knowing the history, and without laying blame to all parties involved, not just the ones you choose to hate. Am i wrong? go do your homework, then come back.

If you understood the topic to be about libya in general, (it was not, it was about your glorifying of Gadhafi that i commented on, go back and look), then why did you throw in all the other political crap like you did in the other thread?  Your all over the place, and thats called trolling.

So Charlie wilson was the only one in the US government who wanted to support Islamist terrorists, including Osama bin Laden as you admit, in Afghanistan?

I didnt bring in other political crap, you guys did when you accused me of hating America and started mentioning the other thread. Why are you accusing me of bringing in outside topics when thats on you guys?

Who the hell knows, do you, go look it up and find out. why do you keep dodging the fact that others were involved. How about egypt? You said we supported Osama bin laden. We did not, we supported the Afghans against the russians. Why did you dodge that? So it was Islamist terrorists taht were fighting the russians? why no hate for the russians? We did not have problems with Bin laden until the war was over and the taliban took control. And you can ditch the youtube crap, obviously if its on youtube it must be true right? And more importantly, my statement to you, in the beginning was about gadhafi, you replied with a blanket statement about nato, the uniteds states and a whole bunch of other crap.

Why is it, when you say bad shit about the United states is proof? Why is it when you see bad stuff about Gadhafi its alleged? Thats not called one sided?  Even better, why talk such bad shit about americans anyways. Hate the leaders if you want. I'm not thrilled with the people running iran, but i got nothing against its people. Gadhafi was a murderer, but thats not the libyans fault.

Herc, where did I show any hate for the American people? Why is it that when mainstream sources alleged the jamahiriya was guilty of mass atrocities, everyone assumed it was true? Why is it that when government officials stated that NATO airstrikes were killing civilians, they were dismissed as self serving liars and propagandists when they were stating truth?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/world/africa/scores-of-unintended-casualties-in-nato-war-in-libya.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Herc, to be fair, more people have been killed at the hands of Communist party dictators than islamist terrorists, by far. That doesnt make US support of islamists any less factual. I agree that it wasnt really a problem for the US until the internal power struggle played itself out... But that can be seen as a natural result of US policy. We are still dealing with the consequences, the worst of which may be the growing debt.

Nec, where have I played the "I'm totally unbiased" card... Which subjects? Besides the greatness of Image Fight...

[PCEngineHell]

Yet you have played that card numerous times on various subjects.   You can't believe the "truth" (especially if it's opposite to what "FACTS" you "KNOW") going in with a predisposition, that OBVIOUSLY has you SEVERELY jaded to think/believe one way.

Basically what it amounts to is he wont believe the truth if he doesn't like the source from wince it came, so due to that, he would rather be on the side of some murdering dictator, due to some religious tie to a group of people he aspires to be like, because the mainstream media is so totally worse then anything Gaddafi ever did during his reign, like totally. Because everyone else is bias, he has to be too.  And yet, here we are. He sits here, still with no bags packed, ready to go check out how the real Muslim lives his daily life in that part of the world. Just more one-sided speculation and utter bullshit from a guy with no experience to speak of regarding the subject matter, yapping on and on and on without a leg to stand on. Just who exactly are you trying to convince here Rags, you, or me? I say you got a plane to catch. Get back to me in a year or two after you do the great tour. Till then, I'm putting you on ignore, because nothing you are saying here is worth a damn. Its put up or shut up time for you poser.

[rag-time4]

Yet you have played that card numerous times on various subjects.   You can't believe the "truth" (especially if it's opposite to what "FACTS" you "KNOW") going in with a predisposition, that OBVIOUSLY has you SEVERELY jaded to think/believe one way.

Basically what it amounts to is he wont believe the truth if he doesn't like the source from wince it came, so due to that, he would rather be on the side of some murdering dictator, due to some religious tie to a group of people he aspires to be like, because the mainstream media is so totally worse then anything Gaddafi ever did during his reign, like totally. Because everyone else is bias, he has to be too.  And yet, here we are. He sits here, still with no bags packed, ready to go check out how the real Muslim lives his daily life in that part of the world. Just more one-sided speculation and utter bullshit from a guy with no experience to speak of regarding the subject matter, yapping on and on and on without a leg to stand on. Just who exactly are you trying to convince here Rags, you, or me? I say you got a plane to catch. Get back to me in a year or two after you do the great tour. Till then, I'm putting you on ignore, because nothing you are saying here is worth a damn. Its put up or shut up time for you poser.

And yet Im presenting info only from mainstream sources, which refutes the earlier bogus official story.

[PCEngineHell]

[OldRover]

I don't want to live in this world any longer.

[HercTNT]

I got more, you also accused the United States of backing Osama bid laden. This is also not true. you ever hear of charlie wilsons war? No? let me tell you. the US did not want to back afghanistan afraid of another vietnam. But senator charlie wilson decided to aid afghanistan due to the fact the russians were raping and murdering. The russians would drag people out in the street and make their families watch as they drove over them with tanks. Charlie knew they had no chance without better weapons so he convinced the egyptians, Yes the egyptians, to provide the afghans with weapons so as to not give the appearance of the US being involved. So The US did not back osama bid laden (he was a soldier in the war against the russians yes), Charlie wilson backed afghanistan against the russians. So if your gonna hate on the US, you need to decry egypt as well for helping do you not? Don't make such statements without knowing the history, and without laying blame to all parties involved, not just the ones you choose to hate. Am i wrong? go do your homework, then come back.

If you understood the topic to be about libya in general, (it was not, it was about your glorifying of Gadhafi that i commented on, go back and look), then why did you throw in all the other political crap like you did in the other thread?  Your all over the place, and thats called trolling.

So Charlie wilson was the only one in the US government who wanted to support Islamist terrorists, including Osama bin Laden as you admit, in Afghanistan?

I didnt bring in other political crap, you guys did when you accused me of hating America and started mentioning the other thread. Why are you accusing me of bringing in outside topics when thats on you guys?

Who the hell knows, do you, go look it up and find out. why do you keep dodging the fact that others were involved. How about egypt? You said we supported Osama bin laden. We did not, we supported the Afghans against the russians. Why did you dodge that? So it was Islamist terrorists taht were fighting the russians? why no hate for the russians? We did not have problems with Bin laden until the war was over and the taliban took control. And you can ditch the youtube crap, obviously if its on youtube it must be true right? And more importantly, my statement to you, in the beginning was about gadhafi, you replied with a blanket statement about nato, the uniteds states and a whole bunch of other crap.

Why is it, when you say bad shit about the United states is proof? Why is it when you see bad stuff about Gadhafi its alleged? Thats not called one sided?  Even better, why talk such bad shit about americans anyways. Hate the leaders if you want. I'm not thrilled with the people running iran, but i got nothing against its people. Gadhafi was a murderer, but thats not the libyans fault.

Herc, where did I show any hate for the American people? Why is it that when mainstream sources alleged the jamahiriya was guilty of mass atrocities, everyone assumed it was true? Why is it that when government officials stated that NATO airstrikes were killing civilians, they were dismissed as self serving liars and propagandists when they were stating truth?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/world/africa/scores-of-unintended-casualties-in-nato-war-in-libya.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Herc, to be fair, more people have been killed at the hands of Communist party dictators than islamist terrorists, by far. That doesnt make US support of islamists any less factual. I agree that it wasnt really a problem for the US until the internal power struggle played itself out... But that can be seen as a natural result of US policy. We are still dealing with the consequences, the worst of which may be the growing debt.

Nec, where have I played the "I'm totally unbiased" card... Which subjects? Besides the greatness of Image Fight...

I asked you some simple questions, that you still continue to dodge, so i will give you another chance.  Your telling me the people fighting the russians were islamist terrorists and not afghans trying to remove the russians from there country?  You have attacked the United states for supporting these islamists as you call them. Yet egypt did to, you have yet to denouce egypt for thier involvement. Do you denounce them as well?  France and Germany led the charge on Libya. There are 28 nato countries, most did not participate in libya, are they all to blame, or just the United states? You know who supports alot of terrorists, arab countries. Are you against islamists? if so, then do you denounce arab nations known to support islamist terrorists? Pass the hate around my friend. One thing i have noticed about people like you. You have not problem pointing the finger, but have a hard time looking within. Or just dodge outright.

[rag-time4]

I got more, you also accused the United States of backing Osama bid laden. This is also not true. you ever hear of charlie wilsons war? No? let me tell you. the US did not want to back afghanistan afraid of another vietnam. But senator charlie wilson decided to aid afghanistan due to the fact the russians were raping and murdering. The russians would drag people out in the street and make their families watch as they drove over them with tanks. Charlie knew they had no chance without better weapons so he convinced the egyptians, Yes the egyptians, to provide the afghans with weapons so as to not give the appearance of the US being involved. So The US did not back osama bid laden (he was a soldier in the war against the russians yes), Charlie wilson backed afghanistan against the russians. So if your gonna hate on the US, you need to decry egypt as well for helping do you not? Don't make such statements without knowing the history, and without laying blame to all parties involved, not just the ones you choose to hate. Am i wrong? go do your homework, then come back.

If you understood the topic to be about libya in general, (it was not, it was about your glorifying of Gadhafi that i commented on, go back and look), then why did you throw in all the other political crap like you did in the other thread?  Your all over the place, and thats called trolling.

So Charlie wilson was the only one in the US government who wanted to support Islamist terrorists, including Osama bin Laden as you admit, in Afghanistan?

I didnt bring in other political crap, you guys did when you accused me of hating America and started mentioning the other thread. Why are you accusing me of bringing in outside topics when thats on you guys?

Who the hell knows, do you, go look it up and find out. why do you keep dodging the fact that others were involved. How about egypt? You said we supported Osama bin laden. We did not, we supported the Afghans against the russians. Why did you dodge that? So it was Islamist terrorists taht were fighting the russians? why no hate for the russians? We did not have problems with Bin laden until the war was over and the taliban took control. And you can ditch the youtube crap, obviously if its on youtube it must be true right? And more importantly, my statement to you, in the beginning was about gadhafi, you replied with a blanket statement about nato, the uniteds states and a whole bunch of other crap.

Why is it, when you say bad shit about the United states is proof? Why is it when you see bad stuff about Gadhafi its alleged? Thats not called one sided?  Even better, why talk such bad shit about americans anyways. Hate the leaders if you want. I'm not thrilled with the people running iran, but i got nothing against its people. Gadhafi was a murderer, but thats not the libyans fault.

Herc, where did I show any hate for the American people? Why is it that when mainstream sources alleged the jamahiriya was guilty of mass atrocities, everyone assumed it was true? Why is it that when government officials stated that NATO airstrikes were killing civilians, they were dismissed as self serving liars and propagandists when they were stating truth?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/world/africa/scores-of-unintended-casualties-in-nato-war-in-libya.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Herc, to be fair, more people have been killed at the hands of Communist party dictators than islamist terrorists, by far. That doesnt make US support of islamists any less factual. I agree that it wasnt really a problem for the US until the internal power struggle played itself out... But that can be seen as a natural result of US policy. We are still dealing with the consequences, the worst of which may be the growing debt.

Nec, where have I played the "I'm totally unbiased" card... Which subjects? Besides the greatness of Image Fight...

I asked you some simple questions, that you still continue to dodge, so i will give you another chance.  Your telling me the people fighting the russians were islamist terrorists and not afghans trying to remove the russians from there country?  You have attacked the United states for supporting these islamists as you call them. Yet egypt did to, you have yet to denouce egypt for thier involvement. Do you denounce them as well?  France and Germany led the charge on Libya. There are 28 nato countries, most did not participate in libya, are they all to blame, or just the United states? You know who supports alot of terrorists, arab countries. Are you against islamists? if so, then do you denounce arab nations known to support islamist terrorists? Pass the hate around my friend. One thing i have noticed about people like you. You have not problem pointing the finger, but have a hard time looking within. Or just dodge outright.

I agree, other NATO countries did lead the charge politically, but the US led the charge militarily. Equal condemnation for all parties involved, though Im most outspoken about the US because I'm most interested in seeing my own country lead the charge back to our root beliefs as a nation and a non-interventionist foreign policy.

Youre right, many (all?) arab countries support terrorists. Condemnation to them for that, though they do not claim to be fighting a "war on terror"...

Yes, I absolutely believe that the vast majority of the fighters in Afghanistan were indeed islamists. Yes, I also believe that they were fighting to keep the USSR out, but there were also rival warlords vying for power and wealth. Yes, equal denunciation to Egypt for any role they had in supporting islamists in Afghanistan. Egypt had been a strong ally of the USSR during the Nasser era.

[Bernie]

Oh my freaking GOD!!!  This shit is still going on?  Someone please close this damn thread.