New TurboDuo owner looking for some advice

[JohnnyPhantom]

Hey everyone!
I've grown up as a Nintendo only kinda guy, with some Sega splashed in and a hint of 3DO.
I never knew about the TurboGrafx growing up. I recently just got a TurboDup for $5 at my local gaming store (pretty sure the price was a mistake) but anyway. I have alot of questions about this great lil machine and am excited to find such a awesome site exists for new and old fans of the TG/PCE!!

I'm not sure if I'm posting this in the right spot, if I'm not, please let me know and I'll fix that.

First the history, here's my story so far...
My local game store was having a sale where everything game, movie, music, and toy realted is 50% off!
I already grabbed a bunch of awesome deals
but I stopped by again the next day (the sale was a week long) and I saw this tucked away behind the counter, asking what it was (since I coudln't really make it out) it found out it was a Turbo Duo! With the controller, power, and tv hookups!
I asked how much? The employee said, I'm not sure if it even works, we havn't tested it out yet, how about $10? I asked "is that before or after the 50% off?" it was before. So I paid him the $5+tax and speeded home to play with it to see if it even worked. and by golly! it WORKED!!!

The only thing I don't like is what ever it is on the CD drive door, not sure if its just worn down or its some kinda gloss/glue on it, I'm gonna give the system my cleaning overhaul and find out ^-^

now here's where I'm at and could use a little input,
since the system only had a 7 day return period (not that it mattered, I wasn't going to return it for $5) I wanted to make sure it works so I burned a few games on CD-R's to test it out, as well as two game I wanted the most (Dracula X and Ys IV) are Japan imports only and I wanted to play them in english and found the patches to do so, so they have to be played on a CD-R. It seems like every game I tried had the same problem, they would load and play, but in about 10 minutes the music would suddenly static for a half a second and stop completely, and would only return when I went to another area or stage where a different track would play (or if i reboot the system).
I did some searching online and saw the Duo had a cap issue which would cause some sound issues, so I replaced those and the problem remained.

I then saw that the discs TOC's had to be correct, so I used binchuck and tocfixer and I'm getting better success but still a few games will cut out. Is this more a burning CD-R issue, is it because im using a 70min CD-R vs a 65min? could it be the laser (which I ordered a new one of to replace anyway just in case). or is it something else?
I don't have any REAL TurboGrafx-CD games just yet, waiting for a few in the mail.
Also I read that using CD-Rs will ruin the laser, is this true?

Any help is greatly appreciated
Thanks everyone!!

[jlued686]

If I'm reading this correctly, you're asking if CDRs fuck with the Duo's laser. You're only two posts in and you've already asked the most controversial question on these forums. Congrats.

So I'm going to say: yes, in my experience, CDRs and Duos do not go together well.

And as I run from this thread before the shitstorm begins, I'm going to leave you with this: $5 for a working DUO?!?!?! BEST DEAL EVER!

[CrackTiger]

Some people are certain that cdrs wear out your laser more than real game discs and some people are certain that they don't at all. What everyone agrees upon is that you will get mixed results playing cdr games. So if you want to benchmark your Duo, you should at least but some cheap CD games (there are hundreds of them) and try them out.

[JohnnyPhantom]

If I'm reading this correctly, you're asking if CDRs fuck with the Duo's laser. You're only two posts in and you've already asked the most controversial question on these forums. Congrats.

So I'm going to say: yes, in my experience, CDRs and Duos do not go together well.

And as I run from this thread before the shitstorm begins, I'm going to leave you with this: $5 for a working DUO?!?!?! BEST DEAL EVER!

Oh I try

Some people are certain that cdrs wear out your laser more than real game discs and some people are certain that they don't at all. What everyone agrees upon is that you will get mixed results playing cdr games. So if you want to benchmark your Duo, you should at least but some cheap CD games (there are hundreds of them) and try them out.

Thanks for the advice! Currently i'm working on getting Loom, but what are some great fun (or the funnest) of the cheap games that use redbook audio do you suggest?
I do have J.B. Harold Murder Club, but I don't think its a redbook audio game

Thanks everyone!!

[CrackTiger]

If I'm reading this correctly, you're asking if CDRs fuck with the Duo's laser. You're only two posts in and you've already asked the most controversial question on these forums. Congrats.

So I'm going to say: yes, in my experience, CDRs and Duos do not go together well.

And as I run from this thread before the shitstorm begins, I'm going to leave you with this: $5 for a working DUO?!?!?! BEST DEAL EVER!

Oh I try

Some people are certain that cdrs wear out your laser more than real game discs and some people are certain that they don't at all. What everyone agrees upon is that you will get mixed results playing cdr games. So if you want to benchmark your Duo, you should at least but some cheap CD games (there are hundreds of them) and try them out.

Thanks for the advice! Currently i'm working on getting Loom, but what are some great fun (or the funnest) of the cheap games that use redbook audio do you suggest?
I do have J.B. Harold Murder Club, but I don't think its a redbook audio game

Thanks everyone!!

Here are some cheap and English-friendly PC Engine CD games that will run on your TurboDuo:

Side Arms Special
Super Darius
Red Alert
Avenger
Valis III
Pomping World
Puyo Puyo
Panic Bomber
Splash Lake
Vasteel
Shadow of the Beast
Flash Hiders


Cosmic Fantasy 2 is a cheap TurboGrafx-16 CD game which uses redbook audio.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

Looking for cheap CD and SCD games to play around with your Duo, just search around for Import versions of Dungeon Explorer II or Winds of Thunder/Gate of Thunder for GREAT MUSIC!

Also, yes- you can't go wrong with Loom, great great game!!  You can usually find the Sherlock Holmes games for low prices, also search for Riot Zone or whatever else you can grab for cheap.  There are some great games out there for low prices!

Also, did you plan on getting any HuCard games?  There are TONS of great ones.

[JohnnyPhantom]

Be

Looking for cheap CD and SCD games to play around with your Duo, just search around for Import versions of Dungeon Explorer II or Winds of Thunder/Gate of Thunder for GREAT MUSIC!

Also, yes- you can't go wrong with Loom, great great game!!  You can usually find the Sherlock Holmes games for low prices, also search for Riot Zone or whatever else you can grab for cheap.  There are some great games out there for low prices!

Also, did you plan on getting any HuCard games?  There are TONS of great ones.

Before I got the Duo I had a TG-16 which I just sold off eBay for $150 (sold it with Keith Courage anda TurboBooster CIB). I do have a handful of Hucards, the best being Splatterhouse ^-^ I also have some sports one, another Keith Courage, Twin Laps, Victory Run, JJ & Jeff, and Dragon Spirit if memory serves me right, theres also a few I know I'm forgetting. I WOULD LOVE to get my hands on Neutopia 1 or 2 and Ghost Manor

[turbokon]

Man, that duo is ugly, I give you $10 for it;) No seriously, what a deal you got there!

[NightWolve]

now here's where I'm at and could use a little input,
since the system only had a 7 day return period (not that it mattered, I wasn't going to return it for $5) I wanted to make sure it works so I burned a few games on CD-R's to test it out, as well as two game I wanted the most (Dracula X and Ys IV) are Japan imports only and I wanted to play them in english and found the patches to do so, so they have to be played on a CD-R. It seems like every game I tried had the same problem, they would load and play, but in about 10 minutes the music would suddenly static for a half a second and stop completely, and would only return when I went to another area or stage where a different track would play (or if i reboot the system).

You're in luck as you came to the right place and this issue was recently discussed in this thread. I'll repaste the solution on how I fixed mine from here (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?msg=260130):

I was testing Ys IV on my Duo and after the background music would play for a while, it'd skip and once that happened, the game code doesn't try to recover and resume playing, etc. Until you enter a town, or however you cause another change in background music, it will not resume just like you described. I thought laser issue, but what I did instead is I took apart the laser unit motor, held it vertically and dropped motor oil in it, and I also degreased the slider poles, then applied hi-temp automotive lithium-based grease (the red jelly kind) very well, all over. Put it all back together and it solved the problem!! So, that laser unit needs to be able to slide on those two poles with the least amount of friction as possible to prevent skipping. I am also planning (after the component mod) to apply the same grease underneath the wires and the plastic separator on the PCB that they make contact with - the wires that go from the laser unit to the PCB, that move whenever it slides.

I also recommend using a precision Phillips screwdriver to unscrew the motor (that's connected to the sprockets and moves the laser unit) off the mount, which will then allow you to freely move the laser unit across the slider poles very easily. You can also then hold it vertically and add some motor oil, but the real issue is regreasing those slider poles. By doing this, you'll be better able to clean the old grease off and thoroughly apply the new grease on, being able to move it back'n'forth so easily once that motor is removed. The grease there now is 20 years old, has dried up a bit, collected dust/debris, etc. so it needs to be refreshed! Do that, it should solve your problem.

As to the CD-R question, as long as the brand works with your unit, that is, the laser can focus and work with the disc, AND you burn the CD-R at the slowest possible speed, I do not believe the claims of people who say extra stress is put on the laser unit that will cause it to prematurely fail. Their claims specifically have been that when it comes to data sectors, more CRC failures occur with a CD-R, and the laser has to move back and reread the same sector, hence extra work/stress on the laser unit that otherwise wouldn't occur with an original silver... Now, even if that were true, most NEC games have a very small data track and the entire stage or area at hand is loaded into memory, and the CD is then switched to regular analog audio playing mode for the background music - a redbook audio track is played. The thing is, audio sectors are never reread because there is no CRC check... As a result, there's no "extra" work. If the disc is badly scratched or dirty and the 96 bytes of sync/subcode data are bad as well, you will get skipping too, not just bad sound, but there's no rereading of audio sectors because there is no CRC. That's why professional audio ripping programs try to read the same audio sectors 5 or more times and make sure all 5 reads match because there's no way to know for sure this is the exact data that was burned onto the disc...

When the CD format was designed for audio (redbook), no CRC check was put into place for an audio sector. That idea was implemented for yellowbook with mode1 data sectors later on, because you MUST know the exact data you burned onto the disc is exactly what's being read back, otherwise that'd mean the destruction of computer file data and so forth and the format had to be more reliable for digital data storage. So in that case, a data sector is read, along with a 32-bit CRC (known as the EDC), which is then checked against the 2048 bytes of data, if it checks out, the next data sector is read, if not, the laser moves back and tries to read it again depending on the Read Retry setting of the drive before it finally gives up and reports back a bad sector (meaning you gotta clean the disc if it's dirty or try to buff it down if it's due to scratches, etc.).

Anyway, the point is, given that most NEC CDs consist of a small data track and a bunch of redbook audio tracks, and that most of the time, the laser unit is playing an audio track after a stage or area has been loaded into RAM, there isn't really this "extra" stress or work put onto the laser or it's rather negligible, BUT it's avoidable due to the following: I did mention you should burn a CD-R at the slowest possible setting, because yeah, the burn/reflection marks on a CD-R are actually physically different when you burn it slow versus fast, and you will get read problems, but that is usually pretty apparent. This applies to DVD-R also. For example, I have a 1997 Pioneer DVD player that would skip if the DVD-R was burned at 16x - I found that burning the disc at 8x eliminated the reading problems... Period. When I looked at both discs, one at 8x v. one at 16x, the burn/reflection marks with the 8x disc were more uniform from the inner center of the disc to the outer one... If you're gonna burn it, burn it once and do it right using the slowest setting, what's another 8-10 minutes of extra time to avoid this sort of issue ??? So, that's another tip. Your real guide to reading problems is if the laser can play through the whole audio track without any skipping (and hence stopping which is how the unit responds) and without any bad sounding audio; if the music sounds fine, then the laser is likely handling data sectors just fine as well given the CD-R brand you used and speed setting you chose.

In short, my opinion is if it plays through a whole audio track without any problems, the same is likely to be the case with the times when it's reading through a data track and that there is no extra stress because of the use of CD-R... If you used a bad brand that's not compatible with the laser and/or you burned it at a high speed, you will likely experience skipping (and hence the cutoff problem the moment it skips one time) problems when the redbook audio is playing pretty early on which is also likely an indicator that it'll have trouble with data sectors and have to resort to rereading them or trying to read the backup data track (usually the last data track on a NEC disc)... That'd be a case of extra stress/work, but all of which is avoidable I think and detectable early on.

[JohnnyPhantom]

Wow! Thanks for that info!
I'll be sure to do that tonight!
Ill re-grease the polls and do i put the oil inside of the motor? that wont cause any damage or short anything out correct?
I think i'll do that, replace the laser as well, that plus the caps were already replaced will have my Duo working as good as new ^-^

[NightWolve]

Well, no, don't rush towards thinking you gotta replace the laser, assuming you can get it or would even know how to change it (if not, thesteve or others can help you), but yeah, what you described is exactly the same problem I was experiencing and solved as a layman when it comes to electronics, so try regreasing first before going to the extreme of a complete laser replacement...

As for that motor, I held it vertically and used a can of "3-in-one" motor oil specifically designed to lubricate motors, electric or otherwise (it lists fans, electric drills and saws, etc. on its cover) which I had handy from a local Home Depot or Menards... Petroleum-based products such as that are NOT conductive like say a water-based product would be... so yeah, that wouldn't cause a short. Don't really bother if you're worried, the main issue is the regreasing the poles anyway. I just did it for good measure since I still had some oil left in it and it was available at hand.

[JohnnyPhantom]

Thanks again!
I'm a lil electronic savvy, as in, I've created NES and SNES reproductions, replaced caps, fixed broken printed circuit board routes, and replaced lasers in PS3's and such. Ill re-grease the poles first and see how it runs. I may just order the new laser just to have on hand. I may or may not replace it. One thing I know I won't touch are the main boards POTS I read horror stories about those (won't touch them until I learn how to adjust the properly with the right measuring tools)

[NightWolve]

I should also point out that this skipping and cutoff problem as a result was occurring with original silver/pressed CDs all the same. At first, I thought it was because of the CD-R of Ys IV, given how CD-Rs have gained a reputation for usually being the culprit of some kind of problem, but I tried real/pressed audio music CDs as well to be sure, and SAME problem... The redbook audio track would play for 20-30 seconds or so (it varied totally), skip and then cease to be played as a result. The laser unit doesn't try to recover and move on to the next sectors after skipping occurs, it just stops playing... Anyway, regreasing solved the problem. The laser unit needs its lost agility restored on the slider poles, and this should be the first resort before someone goes around and messes with the potentiometers related to focusing and what not or decides to seek replacement of the whole laser, etc.

[JohnnyPhantom]

I'll stop by my local parts store and get
this
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Coastal-14-1-oz-399-728-g-uniplex-high-temperature-grease/_/N-25ap?itemIdentifier=561738_0_0_
and this
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/WD-40-3-oz-85-049-g-3-In-1-multipurpose-oil-drip/_/N-25ap?itemIdentifier=514675_0_0_
look good to you?
thanks again!!

[NightWolve]

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Coastal-14-1-oz-399-728-g-uniplex-high-temperature-grease/_/N-25ap?itemIdentifier=561738_0_0_

Worth a shot, doesn't have to be hi-temp obviously, but I bet as a result it takes a long time for it to dry out. I don't really know what kind of grease is the best or most appropriate for this purpose, I asked around here but nobody could say for sure, so... Anyhow, you should be able to find a can though, instead of a cartridge.

Here's what I used (red jelly kind) from Walmart, $4 bucks worth: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-Multi-Duty-Grease-1-lb/16795246

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/WD-40-3-oz-85-049-g-3-In-1-multipurpose-oil-drip/_/N-25ap?itemIdentifier=514675_0_0_
look good to you?
thanks again!!

You want this one, which is what I had lying around and used: http://home.comcast.net/~jmccomas2/lube/blue3in1motoroil.gif

It's a can with blue labeling on the brand name that says Motor Oil, not Multi-Purpose Oil, which is specifically designed for electric motors.

Reference: http://www.fancollectors.org/info/Lubrication.htm

3 in 1 "Motor Oil" in the BLUE can, NOT the "Multi-Purpose" Red container.
SAE ~ 20  (both are non-detergent, ONLY buy the BLUE can!
(The red can has Naptha.  Not recommended.  The Naptha gets the dirt in suspension
then evaporates leaving dirt on the bearing surface, like detergents)
Chain stores Lowes, Home Depot, may stock the BLUE "3 in 1 Oil"

Random Internet Guy specifically warns not to use the multi-purpose one for reasons listed above, so best do what Random Internet Guy says here and avoid it! ;) Only natural anyhow since they have a specific brand of product for electric motors and a general one.

[JohnnyPhantom]

Oh random internet guy, I salute you off to walmart I go (was on my way there for goo gone anyhow)

[Bernie]

Most likely, if your sound starts getting shitty sometime into the gameplay, but the cdr game itself is playing fine, its not the laser.  That sounds like the ole cap issue.  Get that done before you do anything.  I still would go ahead and pick up a elcheapo CD game to test it, but I am willing to bet that its caps.

[NightWolve]

I then saw that the discs TOC's had to be correct, so I used binchuck and tocfixer and I'm getting better success but still a few games will cut out. Is this more a burning CD-R issue, is it because im using a 70min CD-R vs a 65min? could it

My TocFixer is critical/important for Dracula X, but not so much for Ys IV (though it's still helpful if you want emulators to detect the "title" of the disc when it's inserted). If you downloaded an ISO/MP3/CUE image file set, and directly burned that to CD-R, the game would be crashing and suffering from lip-syncing issues when it comes to the cinemas. You've gotta convert it to ISO/WAV/CUE first, then run TocFixer to restore the proper file sizes, ensuring that the TOC of the burned disc will match the original silver. Critical in that case since the game code has the LBA of every audio track hardcoded, unlike games such as Ys IV which dynamically retrieve the LBA of the audio track to play from the TOC, hence why you could get away with replacing audio tracks with whatever you wanted and the game would still work just fine.

Anyway, in response to what Bernie said, I'm sure you have a real/pressed music CD lying around, so find one, load it up, pick any track on the audio CD menu that should boot when it detects that it's just an audio CD, and let it play for a while... You should experience the same result, it'll play the track for a bit, skip (quick static/noise), then stop, etc. That being the case, that's exactly the problem I was having, so the chances of it being solved with fresh grease are high.

[JohnnyPhantom]

I already replaced the caps and the same issue. I did try one store brought music cd,and the entire thing plays just fine. So far my cdr of Dracula x English plays fine and I was playing it for over a hour, I then tried Ys III and had the intro on loop for 20 minutes and the problem returned. Ill try the grease and post how that went, also ill oil up the motor

[BlueBMW]

Regarding CDRs, I did have better luck when I used some archive quality gold 650mb discs rather than the common 700mb el cheapos.

[Bernie]

hm, I must have missed that you already capped it.  Oops, what I get for being tired and posting.    If you are adamant about only playing burned games, be sure you have used quality media as Blue stated, and also be sure you have a good rip like Night stated.  My advice, play burns if you want, but I only use them for translation projects.  Get a couple cheap CD games to make test it.  The Duos are picky with burns anyway, Ive had some that wont play em, and some that treat them just like the real deal, then a couple that would drop the audio completely here and there.  Its a crap shoot really.

[GohanX]

You've been here for all of 5 minutes and you figured out how to use Tocfixer without any of us talking about it, and you're capable of doing your own tech work.

Noob of the year contender!

[JohnnyPhantom]

You've been here for all of 5 minutes and you figured out how to use Tocfixer without any of us talking about it, and you're capable of doing your own tech work.

Noob of the year contender!

Ha!
Yea I'm not that new to modding or fixing stuff stuff or figuring out applications, just the system in general I'm new too

[VestCunt]

FYI Goo Gone can remove paint if you rub too much.

[JohnnyPhantom]

Ok I'm at work now so can't go tooo crazy, but I took apart the Optical drive rails, cleaned them (yuck! hair and dust bunnies) made them shine (along with the white plastic gear) and applied some new hi temp auto grease from the link provided. I then also placed a few drops of that motor oil into the motor, closed it up and then blindly (no tv at work) setup the system at my desk, placed a game CD in, pressed run, and listening via headphones some Dracula X goodness ^-^ I'll try Ys later (one of the ones that gave me issues) but so far soo good ^-^

[JohnnyPhantom]

Well from bad to worse, looks like I have a new problem, audio is now staticky and cuts out woo more caps to replace :/ in the process I thought I should redo the caps I already did thinking that was the issue, bad idea tore a few pads, so had to remake the circuits. Well off to hunt down and buy more caps, anyone know of a kit that has all I need?

[JohnnyPhantom]

Okay this page is getting to be a lil long and theres multiple problems here so I may just start breaking up my issues to separate threads later one, but for now, everything is up and running again and looking good. Lack of knowledge is a dangerous thing. I had replaced my main audio caps when I first got the Duo (

) and never had a audio issue since (well other than the random cut off which may be resolved with the greasing of the optical) but when I did that it seemed to work fine then all of a sudden I started getting static, here's where the danger part kicked in, I figured maybe I did break a pad when I did the first 6 caps, so I re did them, seemed fine, I tested the connections all looked good, maybe I had a dud cap? replaced all the caps again, this time I did break 2 pads, damnit! so had to trace the routes, solder 2 patch wires in, tested same static. no matter what I did. so I kept working on those original 6 caps, made them look better, re did the wires. nothing... then I gave up for the night and went home (was doing this at work after hours) got home and found this ---->

went to work today, replaced that 1 cap and PRESTO! perfect audio again! I guess it just so happened to go bad on me. So the Duos back up and running, I think i'm gonna replace all the caps now, (since after all my trial and error I know have it down to a perfect science on how to replace them easy, fast, and no board damage)

[GohanX]

Don't feel too bad. I just did a cap job on a Genesis last weekend, and although I didn't break any traces or pads, the first couple of caps look really fugly, then I got the technique down and all the rest look great.

As far as the lid goes, I can't really tell from the pic what exactly is going on with that door, but I wonder if a Mr Clean magic eraser might help. It works like a really mild wet sandpaper, so use with caution and as a last resort, but I've had it work miracles when no other cleaners would get the job done. The only thing is that on a black surface like a Duo, it may leave little scuff marks on the surface.

[JohnnyPhantom]

drats after letting the system run some time, getting warmed up, audio issues are present, this time, no static but a bit choppy here and there. what should I try next?

[Todd Gill]

As mentioned elsewhere, you need to do a full recap before any further troubleshooting.

Could be simply more bad caps or could be a cap that has leaked and ate away at a trace.

[BlueBMW]

As part of a recap you need to clean the board really well.  There are various techniques for this ranging from a toothbrush + alcohol up to using a dishwasher.  There may also be some corroded vias that arent always easy to find.

[JohnnyPhantom]

So far I've been using q tip with alch. Would the dishwasher method be better/ more effective? Are there precautions I should know of?

[NightWolve]

How'd it go with the recap, Johnny ? I found that I like brake parts cleaner for cleaning up leaked electrolytic fluid, but never spray it on the PCB as it can soften/melt plastic; I spray it on the end of a q-tip or towel and wipe down with it, works great! Beamer's idea of dipping the whole PCB in water with dishwashing liquid soap makes me nervous, but eh, he swears by it... (You'd have to make damn sure everything is completely dry afterwards if you went that far, like letting the PCB air dry for a couple of days.)

That was a pretty good short video you posted earlier BTW. He mentioned lithium grease as the type he uses, so good to get some confirmation. But now I remember talking with Beamer about this, and he mentioned there's a grade issue, heavy versus light and so forth. Anyhow, that's the stuff I used, but since you're having static/choppy issues, sounds more like a cap issue as stated. The lubrication problem manifested itself strictly as a skip and then cutoff problem as a result while a redbook audio track is playing, not weird sounding audio, staticky or choppy and whatnot, etc.

I'm gonna do a recap myself while I do the component mod actually, but I first need to buy another capacitor kit. Even though everything works, I'm worried about a bad leakage in the near future (like the one in your video) damaging something, leaking through the bottom of the vias, etc. My TurboExpress was pretty bad leakage-wise (wouldn't boot), but the recap was successful.

[JohnnyPhantom]

So far the cap replacing has gone smoothly, the audio sounds much better, the video issues gone, I've only replaced half the caps. The audio still has issues where it will stop and comeback when a new track plays, but that could be a cdr/burning issues. I just won and received 3 awesome games on eBay, well, almost all awesome (Addams family, Ys I and II, Sherlock Holmes vol 1) so ill start testing the system with a real cd and see. But then the friggin Wii U came out so I've been playing it (the nerve of that system cutting into my TG time)
I'm waiting for the rest of the caps I ordered to show up and soon ill have a TG express as well. I'm trading a rare n64 game for the express, bomberman,and impossimole. (Both games complete and the express already has been recapped)