If you'd been in charge of NEC U.S./TTI what would've been your ideal TG-16 set?

[Bardoly]

All of this talk about complete sets has gotten me to thinking a bit.  Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but I thought that this would be an interesting idea to discuss.

If you could take today's knowledge of the entire TG-16/PC Engine libray to the past and had been the CEO of NEC Home Electronics and T.T.I., which games would you have released INSTEAD OF the games which were released in the U.S.  And no, you can't simply just say, "I would have released the entire PC Engine library in the U.S."  For purposes of discussion, I would like to propose the following 'rules':

1.  Only licensed retail-released HuCard, CD, and Super CD games may be discussed (since the Arcade Card was never released in the U.S.).  This means no Laser Active, demo games, or unlicensed homebrew/girlie games for this topic.

2.  Only substitutions may be made.  No additions.  (For every PC Engine game ADDED to the TG-16 list, a TurboGrafx-16 game must be REMOVED from the list.)

3.  You may substitute CD/Super CD games for Hucard games, or vice versa, but your list must keep a minimum of 60 HuCard games.

4.  To keep the TG-16 release list from getting too unbalanced, participants should strive to substitute games within the same genre if possible, or at least do not remove a genre entirely.  (i.e. Don't just remove all sports titles and replace them all with RPG titles.  You must remember that you are the CEO, and so you must appeal to America/Canada as a whole and not to a small niche market.  Your goal is to beat Sega/Nintendo out and maintain a presence in the U.S. rather than closing up shop.)

5.  Since it is simply a label variant, Champions Forever Boxing (red label variant) may be substituted for by anything.

6.  For easy reading and discussion's sake, simply post similarly as follows:
i.e. - (For example only, these are not my selections)

Aero Blasters -> Salamander
Bloody Wolf -> Marchen Maze
China Warrior -> Doraemon: Nobita's Dorabian Night
Gunboat -> anything  

The official TurboGrafx-16 list of 95 licensed retail-released HuCard games:

Aero Blasters
Air Zonk
Alien Crush
Andre Panza Kick Boxing
Ballistix
Battle Royale
Blazing Lazers
Bloody Wolf
Bomberman
Bomberman '93
Bonk's Adventure
Bonk's Revenge
Bonk 3: Bonk's Big Adventure
Boxyboy
Bravoman
Cadash
Champions Forever Boxing (black label variant)
Champions Forever Boxing (red label variant)
Chase HQ
Chew Man-Fu
China Warrior
Cratermaze
Cybercore
Darkwing Duck
Davis Cup Tennis
Dead Moon
Deep Blue
Devil's Crush
Double Dungeons
Dragon Spirit
Dragon's Curse
Drop-Off
Dungeon Explorer
Falcon
Fantasy Zone
Final Lap Twin
Galaga '90
Ghost Manor
Gunboat
Hit The Ice
Impossimole
Jack Nicklaus Turbo Golf
Jackie Chan's Action Kung Fu
JJ & Jeff
Keith Courage in Alpha Zones
King of Casino
Klax
Legend of Hero Tonma
Legendary Axe, The
Legendary Axe II, The
Magical Chase
Military Madness
Moto Roader
Neutopia
Neutopia 2
New Adventure Island
Night Creatures
Ninja Spirit
Order of the Griffon, D & D
Ordyne
Pac-Land
Parasol Stars
Power Golf
Psychosis
R-Type
Raiden
Samurai Ghost
Shockman
Side Arms – Hyper Dyne
Silent Debuggers
Sinistron
Soldier Blade
Somer Assault
Sonic Spike Volleyball
Space Harrier
Splatterhouse
Super Star Soldier
Super Volleyball
Takin' It to the Hoop
Tale Spin
Tiger Road
Time Cruise
Timeball
Tricky Kick
Turrican
TV Sports Basketball
TV Sports Football
TV Sports Hockey
Veigues Tactical Gladiator
Victory Run
Vigilante
World Class Baseball
World Court Tennis
World Sports Competition
Yo Bro

The official TurboGrafx-16 list of 44 licensed retail-released CD & Super CD games:

Addams Family
Beyond Shadowgate
Bonk 3: Bonk's Big Adventure
Buster Bros.
Camp California
Cosmic Fantasy 2
Cotton: Fantastic Night Dreams
Dragon Slayer: The Legend of Heroes
Dungeon Master: Thayer's Quest
Dungeon Explorer II
Dynastic Hero, The
Exile
Exile: Wicked Phenomenon
Fighting Street
Final Zone II
Forgotten Worlds
Gate of Thunder / Bonk's Adventure / Bonk's Revenge (3-in-1 CD)
Godzilla
It Came From the Desert
J.B. Harold Murder Club
Jack Nicklaus Turbo Golf
John Madden Duo CD Football
Last Alert
Loom
Lords of the Rising Sun
Lords of Thunder
Magical Dinosaur Tour
Might and Magic III: Isles of Terra
Monster Lair
Prince of Persia
Riot Zone
Shadow of the Beast
Shape Shifter
Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective
Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective Vol. 2
Sim Earth: The Living Planet
Splash Lake
Super Air Zonk: Rockabilly-Paradise
Terra Forming, Syd Mead's
Valis II
Valis III
Vasteel
Y's Book I & II
Y's III: Wanderers From Ys


Of course, most of us are not familiar with the entire PC Engine library, but just put in your thoughts.  I'll post mine up later after I think about this a bit more.

[Otaking]

Hana Taka Daka

[Tatsujin]

I have this terrible feeling of déjà vu.

[retroguy]

I don't know enough to make a full list, but here's a few that come to mind immediately:

Darkwing Duck -> Batman

Tale Spin -> Die Hard

Deep Blue -> Coryoon

Magical Dinosaur Tour -> Where In The World Is Carmen Sandiego

[Bardoly]

I have this terrible feeling of déjà vu.

Well, I'm sure that something similar to this topic was probably discussed 5-6 years ago, but since you and 3 others are the only ones still here who were involved in that discussion, I figured that this would be fun for all of us forum newbies to discuss.  You are welcome to join in though, oh learned one.  

[Bardoly]

I don't know enough to make a full list, but here's a few that come to mind immediately:

Darkwing Duck -> Batman

Tale Spin -> Die Hard

Deep Blue -> Coryoon

Magical Dinosaur Tour -> Where In The World Is Carmen Sandiego

I really like these choices.  Thanks for participating!

[NecroPhile]

I don't think I'd change all that many, really.  Most of the Turbob library is pretty solid, and most of the stinkers could only be replaced by very different types of games or swapped for some other mediocre title, especially if you look at what games were available at the time (waiting years for a better title wouldn't have helped matters).  The sports games* are bleh, but so are the ones for PCE; and I'd much rather have improved versions of US exclusives like Addams Family, Tailspin, and Darkwing Duck than dump 'em all together for something generic.  

In short: it needed more games not just different games.

* - I generally don't like the genre, but they do sell here.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I would have released everything Japan got.

Fuck this "oh noones going to like it" horseballs. 

Necromancer would've been here.  Outlive.  Brandish. 

the FIRST COSMIC FANTASY INSTEAD OF JUST THE SECOND HOW DOES THAT EVEN HAPPEN. 

Marchen Maze, Legend of Valkyrie, I mean just bring everything.  It would've butt-jammed all the other systems.

[CrackTiger]

I have this terrible feeling of déjà vu.

Well, I'm sure that something similar to this topic was probably discussed 5-6 years ago, but since you and 3 others are the only ones still here who were involved in that discussion, I figured that this would be fun for all of us forum newbies to discuss.  You are welcome to join in though, oh learned one.   

Within the past year there was an "If you were charge of NEC/TTi bitd, what would you do different?" thread. But this one sounds like more fun. It's still very much in the realm of fantasy if yoh aren't going to make people micro-manage releases to have them swap out for games from the same time period. But if you are changing history with knowledge from the future, then you could bankroll development to speed up various release dates. Like I said, this is much more fun since it's not as serious and hopefully won't devolve into "nothing could have changed the Turbo's fate! So don't participate!" kind of negativity.

[Bardoly]

I have this terrible feeling of déjà vu.

Well, I'm sure that something similar to this topic was probably discussed 5-6 years ago, but since you and 3 others are the only ones still here who were involved in that discussion, I figured that this would be fun for all of us forum newbies to discuss.  You are welcome to join in though, oh learned one.   

Within the past year there was an "If you were charge of NEC/TTi bitd, what would you do different?" thread. But this one sounds like more fun. It's still very much in the realm of fantasy if yoh aren't going to make people micro-manage releases to have them swap out for games from the same time period. But if you are changing history with knowledge from the future, then you could bankroll development to speed up various release dates. Like I said, this is much more fun since it's not as serious and hopefully won't devolve into "nothing could have changed the Turbo's fate! So don't participate!" kind of negativity.

This is exactly the attitude that I'm looking for!

I'm going to get my thoughts together on this and post up my list of suggested changes hopefully this weekend.

[SignOfZeta]

Sorry, I only participate in forum threads predicated on incredibly intricate and restrictive rules.

[DildoKKKobold]

Anything -> Dracula X: Rondo of Blood. The TG16 needed a "killer app." While it may have had a strong library, and way lower ratio of stinkers:classics, it really lacked any one game that made the system a "must-have." In a universe where DracX only came out on TG-SCD, and not SNES, I think it might have changed the TG's fate. It would be another 4 years until SotN came out... giving the chance for the TG to take the market. Just as the Xbox became the HaloBox, the TurboDuo could have been the DraculaDuo.

The other thing the system needed was a really strong jRPG franchise. I don't think any game released for the PC Engine would really qualify. Cosmic Fantasy 2 was OK, but not as strong as Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest/Warrior, or Phantasy Star. I'm woefully ignorant on any strong PC Engine-only jRPG.

[Arkhan Asylum]

The other thing the system needed was a really strong jRPG franchise. I don't think any game released for the PC Engine would really qualify. Cosmic Fantasy 2 was OK, but not as strong as Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest/Warrior, or Phantasy Star. I'm woefully ignorant on any strong PC Engine-only jRPG.

http://pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Seiya_Monogatari.htm
http://pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Tenshi_no_Uta.htm
http://pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Startling_Odyssey_2.htm
http://pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Legend_of_Xanadu_II.htm

I could do this for awhile

http://pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Emerald_Dragon.htm

[CrackTiger]

The other thing the system needed was a really strong jRPG franchise. I don't think any game released for the PC Engine would really qualify. Cosmic Fantasy 2 was OK, but not as strong as Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest/Warrior, or Phantasy Star. I'm woefully ignorant on any strong PC Engine-only jRPG.

http://pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Seiya_Monogatari.htm
http://pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Tenshi_no_Uta.htm
http://pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Startling_Odyssey_2.htm
http://pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Legend_of_Xanadu_II.htm

I could do this for awhile

http://pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Emerald_Dragon.htm

See the disclaimer at the end of his post.

What the system really needed was really strong shooters. I don't think any game released for the PC Engine would really qualify. Legion was OK, but not as strong as Gradius III, Axelay or Thunder Force IV. I'm woefully ignorant on any strong PC Engine-only shooters.

[Otaking]

Simply if US NEC/ T.T.I had released Dracula X, Street Fighter II CE Dash, Spriggan, Rainbow Islands and the Arcade Card with Neo Geo port games plus Sapphire, I then think history and the fate of the TG16 would have been very different.

[mac]

Hucards:
Drop-Off>>>>City Hunter
Falcon>>>>GEKISHA BOY
Gunboat>>>>KYŪKYOKU TIGER
Impossimole>>>>VOLFIED
Night Creatures>>>>YŌKAI DŌCHŪKI
Yo Bro>>>>CYBER KNIGHT
Darkwing Duck>>>>NECROSS NO YŌSAI
Sinistron>>>>W-Ring
Silent Debuggers>>>>FUSHIGI NO YUME NO ALICE
Samurai Ghost>>>>GENJI TSUSHIN AGEDAMA
Order of the Griffon>>>>CLOUD MASTER
GHOST MANOR>>>>HANA TĀKA DAKA
King of Casino>>>>HEAVY UNIT
Pac-Land>>>>BONZE ADVENTURE
Time Cruise>>>>LIFE FORCE
Ballistix>>>>THE LOST SUNHEART
Boxyboy>>>>RACING SPIRITS


CD Games:
Addams Family>>>>FIEND HUNTER
Magical Dinosaur Tour>>>>Flash Hiders
Terra Forming, Syd Mead's>>>>Dracula X
Jack Nicklaus Turbo Golf>>>>XAK I.II
Sim Earth: The Living Planet>>>>XAK III
It Came From the Desert>>>>TENCHI O KURAU
Buster Bros>>>>Double Dragon 2
Camp California>>>>Cosmic Fantasy
Bonk 3: Bonk's Big Adventure>>>>Valis IV
Super Air Zonk>>>>Y's IV
Splash Lake>>>>Cosmic Fantasy 3
Shape Shifter>>>>SCHBIBIN MAN 3
Loom>>>>SPRIGGAN
Fighting Street>>>>ANEARTH FANTASY STORIES
J.B. Harold Murder Club>>>>IGA NINDEN GAŌ
Beyond Shadowgate>>>>KAZE KIRI
Might and Magic III>>>>EMERALD DRAGON
Prince of Persia>>>>FAUSSETÉ AMOUR
Last Alert>>>Future Boy Conan
Riot Zone>>>>GALAXY DETECTIVE GAYVAN
Sim Earth>>>>SNATCHER

Honorable Mention
RAYXANBER II
RAYXANBER III
POPFUL MAIL
SPRIGGAN MARK 2
SUPER DARIUS
SUPER DARIUS II

Would have JUMPED at the Mortal Kombat being a Duo exclusive along with porting other Midway arcade games of the era. Rampage,NBA Jam,Spy Hunter II.

TTI should have never released their own IP's imo. Should have been too busy localizing / porting titles from EA, Capcom, Data East, Konami etc.


Nice thread. I was a huge TG16 fan bitd and it was the first console I purchased on my own. That said it is painfully obvious that the system lacked titles, especially those aimed at western gamers.

[esteban]

TurboGrafx-16 --> Genesis w/ SMS converter (Alex Kidd as a PACK-IN game)

Then NEC's woes would have been cured.

[DildoKKKobold]

What the system really needed was really strong shooters. I don't think any game released for the PC Engine would really qualify. Legion was OK, but not as strong as Gradius III, Axelay or Thunder Force IV. I'm woefully ignorant on any strong PC Engine-only shooters.

Your analogy doesn't really work. Legion didn't come out for TG16, Cosmic Fantasy 2 did. There were plenty of decent shooters for the TG16. There was one 'true' jRPG, CF2.

Also, I should have said, "don't know" instead of "don't think." Simple error.

[turboswimbz]

What the system really needed was really strong shooters. I don't think any game released for the PC Engine would really qualify. Legion was OK, but not as strong as Gradius III, Axelay or Thunder Force IV. I'm woefully ignorant on any strong PC Engine-only shooters.

Your analogy doesn't really work. Legion didn't come out for TG16, Cosmic Fantasy 2 did. There were plenty of decent shooters for the TG16. There was one 'true' jRPG, CF2.

Also, I should have said, "don't know" instead of "don't think." Simple error.

Are we ignoring Dragon Slayer: Legend of heroes - seems pretty Jrpg to me no?

[CrackTiger]

What the system really needed was really strong shooters. I don't think any game released for the PC Engine would really qualify. Legion was OK, but not as strong as Gradius III, Axelay or Thunder Force IV. I'm woefully ignorant on any strong PC Engine-only shooters.

Your analogy doesn't really work. Legion didn't come out for TG16, Cosmic Fantasy 2 did. There were plenty of decent shooters for the TG16. There was one 'true' jRPG, CF2.

Also, I should have said, "don't know" instead of "don't think." Simple error.

Cosmic Fantasy 2 isn't the only TG-16 JRPG. The point is how ridiculous it is to make such a radical statement, especially if you admittedly know nothing about the subject. The PC Engine was the king of RPGs as much as it was the king of shooters/schumps (among other genres). Have you seriously never heard of Tengai Makyou II? If it did not exist, we'd likely have been playing Square's stale cart-style 32-bit RPGs on actual (N64) carts.

But the other points you were making, that the TG-16 needed RPGs to be successful and that FF, DQ & PS are "strong franchises" also don't make much sense. RPGs were not popular in North America during the 16-bit generation. Dragon Warrior/Quest had a whopping zero 16-bit releases in North America (and only two original JRPGs in Japan, one of which had NES quality visuals). Unless Final Fantasy Mystic Quest was an opinion changing killer app, then the Final Fantasy "franchise" had a whopping two 16-bit releases. As much as I love all of these series at that point in time, Phantasy Star never had much of an impact in North America (which is why PSIV retailed for such a high price). But even if the Phantasy Star series had the highest number of solid 16-bit JRPG North American releases, the PC Engine Tengai Makyou RPGs are easily their equal.

What the system really needed was really strong shooters. I don't think any game released for the PC Engine would really qualify. Legion was OK, but not as strong as Gradius III, Axelay or Thunder Force IV. I'm woefully ignorant on any strong PC Engine-only shooters.

Your analogy doesn't really work. Legion didn't come out for TG16, Cosmic Fantasy 2 did. There were plenty of decent shooters for the TG16. There was one 'true' jRPG, CF2.

Also, I should have said, "don't know" instead of "don't think." Simple error.

Are we ignoring Dragon Slayer: Legend of heroes - seems pretty Jrpg to me no?

Dragon Slayer was revolutionary in that it introduced non-random battles, which would become the standard for "modern" JRPGs from the next gen onward. But it is cancelled out by the flaw of Dragon Slayer not being a SNES game.

[DildoKKKobold]

Cosmic Fantasy 2 isn't the only TG-16 JRPG... The PC Engine was the king of RPGs....

These two aren't the same... We were talking about what games to bring from the PC Engine to the TG16... the whole point of this topic?

You make a good point, it really was FF on SNES (or even arguably FF7) that made jRPGs mainstream. However, perhaps more GOOD jRPGs being translated from PC Engine to TG16 would have saved the TG16, and made some of the ones Arkhan mentioned become this version of history's FF series.

Also, yeah, I forgot Dragon Slayer. I mentally tend to lump it in with Legacy of the Wizard, the game I did play, since it is in the same series, even though the two are totally different play-types.

[NecroPhile]

That said it is painfully obvious that the system lacked titles, especially those aimed at western gamers.

And yet you'd gladly have dumped all the western developed games we did get for something else?

[Arkhan Asylum]

everyone always says RPGs weren't a "thing", but they sure did get a ton of coverage in Nintendo Power and other gaming magazines.   If the RPG gamers had something to latch onto for TG + CD, that could have been a big deal.   the FF games got cover art on Nintendo Power, and games like Chrono Trigger and Secret of Mana got entire spreads.   There was the "Role Player's Realm" in magazines.

Let's not forget, they also skimped on releasing Wizardry here even though NES and SNES got some of them.  Those games were, and still are popular today. 

The Turbo Grafx-16 lacks an RPG presence.  What we got was really not enough to stand against stuff like Lufia, the Shining series, and Final Fantasy. 

Necromancer would have been a solid release for a HuCard RPG.  It's not a bad game at all.   Then you have games like Solid Force that could've helped bridge the strategy gap where Vasteel and Military Madness stood.

It's like they teased us with what could've been a great english RPG and SRPG library. 

Instead they give us shit like JJ and Jeff.  It's a good game, provided you know who the fuck Kato and Ken are.  Who knew who they were in the late 80s/90s in USA? 

As for solid shooters, Coryoon would've been a good candidate.  As would the Rayxanber games, and Spriggan games.

Some other ones that were HuCard were Final Blaster, Cyber Core, Image Fight, and Dragon Saber.


and then there's the whole Castlevania deal.  I mean, that would've done some shit.

[mac]

That said it is painfully obvious that the system lacked titles, especially those aimed at western gamers.

And yet you'd gladly have dumped all the western developed games we did get for something else?

Be honest now....the majority of those games are rubbish. Maybe I should have just left it with the Turbo needed more games.

[NecroPhile]

Be honest now....the majority of those games are rubbish.

Some are indeed rather crappy (especially on the huey side), but in what world are Beyond Shadowgate, Buster Bros., Camp California, It Came From the Desert (intentionally cheesy and fun for what it is), J.B. Harold Murder Club, Last Alert, Loom, Might and Magic III, Prince of Persia, Riot Zone, Shape Shifter, Splash Lake, Super Air Zonk, and Syd Mead's Terra Forming complete trash?

[JoshTurboTrollX]

That said it is painfully obvious that the system lacked titles, especially those aimed at western gamers.

And yet you'd gladly have dumped all the western developed games we did get for something else?

Be honest now....the majority of those games are rubbish. Maybe I should have just left it with the Turbo needed more games.

Mac,

I thought your list was HUGE and awesome that we would have gotten a crap load of amazing titles in Engrish that we didn't have before!!  BUT!!  I see some titles in there that I would have been crushed had I not played them or even had them released stateside!!

How could you live without-
Buster Bros, Loom, Last Alert, Shape Shifter, OotG or Riot Zone??!

With that said I would say towards the end times TTi should have released:
Ys IV, Street Fighter II CE, Dracula X and Bomberman '94 or Panic Bomber.

Instead of games like
Sim Earth, Might and Magic III, or even John Madden (As much as I do enjoy Madden!)

[Arkhan Asylum]

Might and Magic III was a great idea, honestly.

It demonstrated that the Turbo Grafx could compete with even PC gaming.  It's just as good as the DOS and Amiga releases.

[mac]

Be honest now....the majority of those games are rubbish.

Some are indeed rather crappy (especially on the huey side), but in what world are Beyond Shadowgate, Buster Bros., Camp California, It Came From the Desert (intentionally cheesy and fun for what it is), J.B. Harold Murder Club, Last Alert, Loom, Might and Magic III, Prince of Persia, Riot Zone, Shape Shifter, Splash Lake, Super Air Zonk, and Syd Mead's Terra Forming complete trash?

Not gonna argue they was all trash but no way should there have been Splash Lake, Shape Shifter, POP, It came from the desert (where ET is buried), Loom, Camp California etc before Double Dragon 2, Castlevania, Cosmic Fantasy, Spriggan, Snatcher etc was brought to the west.

[mac]

I agree some of those games would have been missed and even more so after playing them. But we are playing CEO and imo NEC/TTI left the stars on bench.

[SignOfZeta]

Regarding the whole RPG thing:

The reason people bring this up is because by 1992 the PC Engine was, primarily, in Japan, a machine focused mostly on RPGs or things like RPGs, such as simulations and strategy games. While the PCE couldn't do Final Fantasy VI (fuck off, Black Tiger, seriously, fuck off) the SNES sure as fuck couldn't do Gulliver Boy or Cosmic Fantasy 4. The CDROM2 allowed for some shit no cart based system could and RPGs and RPG type games utilized these strengths the best.

Western developed games were basically a write off. Aside from EA sports and Mortal Kombat, "Western" games were basically shit like Home Alone and Cliffhanger. More or less a write off, not just on the Turbo, but on every system. See: why the Jaguar sucked. Its hard to imagine this now in the age of World of Warcaft and Call of Doody, but back then American games weren't very good sellers usually.

So we weren't going to make our own games leaving the TG-16 library to mainly consist of "most stuff but not the RPGs". The most lavish and grandiose Japanese releases were the RPGs. In short, what the PCE was being primarily groomed to do...we didn't get. We get the left overs. The PCE's biggest publisher was Hudson, Hudson's biggest series, Tengai Makyou (and Momotaro, but we'll forget that) never came out here.

And why didn't we get RPGs? Because they were selling like crap in the US and they cost a fucking ton of money to translate. Should TTI have spent money they didn't have translating games that wouldn't sell? I don't know, it wouldn't have saved the Turbo, but it would make for some nice stuff to play now. Go to eBay and find a copy of Final Fantasy III (VI) or Earthbound (Mother 2). Now find the Japanese version. Notice that a US copy is selling for $70 and a JP copy is thrown in with one of those "100 SFC games for $100 lots?". Actually, those 100 game lots have nearly EVERY big time SFC RPG in them, including stuff like Saga and Tactics Ogre. These games are worthless now because they made sooooo many copies of them. In the US they sold %10 as many copies. People love them now in a post-FF VII setting, but either didn't know them or hated them 20 years ago.

Dracula X: Its true this game would have been popular, and much cheaper to translate than RPGs, but don't forget that in 1993 the super stiff as hell platforming genre was effectively dead. People were playing things like Mario World and Sonic 2 when your little guy would just fly all over the fucking place. Rondo was "retro" fest even when it was new. It would have achieved cult classic status but that would have probably have been it, it wouldn't have moved 200,000 Duos. I would have a VERY shitty cover and be worth $1000 now.

The TG16 was basically fucked. There is no way it could have been much more successful that it actually was.

[Arkhan Asylum]

That's the other area where it got kinda gimped.   The platformers don't compare to what Sonic was doing.  They're fun, sure, but they don't quite do it.

I mean between Vector Man, Sonic 1, 2, 3, and Sonic & Knuckles, there wasn't much platforming the Turbo Grafx could've done to keep up.

I prefer Bonk any day, mostly because of the cartoony aspect of it, but really, Sonic and shit demonstrated alot more crap.  and then Nintendo got Kirby and Kirby Super Star.

So, Nintendo and Sega gangbanged the platforming market.

[CrackTiger]

Regarding the whole RPG thing:

The reason people bring this up is because by 1992 the PC Engine was, primarily, in Japan, a machine focused mostly on RPGs or things like RPGs, such as simulations and strategy games. While the PCE couldn't do Final Fantasy VI (fuck off, Black Tiger, seriously, fuck off) the SNES sure as fuck couldn't do Gulliver Boy or Cosmic Fantasy 4. The CDROM2 allowed for some shit no cart based system could and RPGs and RPG type games utilized these strengths the best.

Western developed games were basically a write off. Aside from EA sports and Mortal Kombat, "Western" games were basically shit like Home Alone and Cliffhanger. More or less a write off, not just on the Turbo, but on every system. See: why the Jaguar sucked. Its hard to imagine this now in the age of World of Warcaft and Call of Doody, but back then American games weren't very good sellers usually.

So we weren't going to make our own games leaving the TG-16 library to mainly consist of "most stuff but not the RPGs". The most lavish and grandiose Japanese releases were the RPGs. In short, what the PCE was being primarily groomed to do...we didn't get. We get the left overs. The PCE's biggest publisher was Hudson, Hudson's biggest series, Tengai Makyou (and Momotaro, but we'll forget that) never came out here.

And why didn't we get RPGs? Because they were selling like crap in the US and they cost a fucking ton of money to translate. Should TTI have spent money they didn't have translating games that wouldn't sell? I don't know, it wouldn't have saved the Turbo, but it would make for some nice stuff to play now. Go to eBay and find a copy of Final Fantasy III (VI) or Earthbound (Mother 2). Now find the Japanese version. Notice that a US copy is selling for $70 and a JP copy is thrown in with one of those "100 SFC games for $100 lots?". Actually, those 100 game lots have nearly EVERY big time SFC RPG in them, including stuff like Saga and Tactics Ogre. These games are worthless now because they made sooooo many copies of them. In the US they sold %10 as many copies. People love them now in a post-FF VII setting, but either didn't know them or hated them 20 years ago.

Dracula X: Its true this game would have been popular, and much cheaper to translate than RPGs, but don't forget that in 1993 the super stiff as hell platforming genre was effectively dead. People were playing things like Mario World and Sonic 2 when your little guy would just fly all over the fucking place. Rondo was "retro" fest even when it was new. It would have achieved cult classic status but that would have probably have been it, it wouldn't have moved 200,000 Duos. I would have a VERY shitty cover and be worth $1000 now.

The TG16 was basically fucked. There is no way it could have been much more successful that it actually was.

As the percentage of your ongoing posts which belong more in Fighting Street than the threads you respond in continues to increase, maybe you should just create your own thread in Fighting Street and post responses with quotes there. It would of course be much simpler to just control your emotions and post responsibly, but it seems that you are becoming increasingly unable to do so.


In response to what the SNES can and cannot do, it certainly could do close enough versions of Gulliver Boy and Cosmic Fantasy 4. The redbook music could be replaced by chip tunes and the voice acting wouldn't be worth keeping, but however much content is kept after that would just depend how much storage space a publisher is willing to allow. A large cart using some kind of hardware compression like Star Ocean and Tengai Makyou Zero would allow a faithful enough conversion to still be impressive (look at the quality of the cinemas in the tiny Valis III MD), but the core gameplay would be intact and that's what matters most. Short of low level animation, no console can perfectly recreate a game from another. All that matters is that the end product is still worthwhile. Final Fantasy IV for Wonderswan is a good example. Dracula XX is a bad example.

[geise]

More RPG's wouldn't have helped TTI at all.  They were still a niche genre in the U.S. around the Duo's launch and 94 when it was basically done.  RPG's were not system sellers then.  It was fighting and platformers, or it was games trying something new like Star Fox, jumping on the whole 3D thing.

[Arkhan Asylum]

More RPG's wouldn't have helped TTI at all.  They were still a niche genre in the U.S. around the Duo's launch and 94 when it was basically done.  RPG's were not system sellers then.  It was fighting and platformers, or it was games trying something new like Star Fox, jumping on the whole 3D thing.

They weren't system sellers, maybe.  Depends who you ask.

But, it still would've helped to show that the library had more variety. 

[Marll]

I'll have to really think about some of the swaps since the only one I can think of right now is swapping Victory Run for Outrun since that had an arcade presence in the US so would be recognized.

I think that one of the HUGE failings of NEC early on was changing the box art of the games. They should have taken the EXACT same art of the Japanese release in 99% of cases and just translated the text. In the store sitting next to Genesis games at the time the box art looked WAY too goofy for your average uninformed consumer, and they gravitated towards the cooler box art of the Genesis. If it weren't for that I think that the novelty of HuCards and CDs would have turned more heads because let's face it, those chips and CDs were some fucking high tech looking shit at the time.

[Arkhan Asylum]

yeah the box art for the US games was retarded.

China Warrior looked like some newspaper comic strip shit.

[mac]

Box art was/is still hideous lol.

Have to believe that if the Duo had launched along with Mortal Kombat as an exclusive history would have been different.

[turboswimbz]

Box art was/is still hideous lol.

Have to believe that if the Duo had launched along with Mortal Kombat as an exclusive history would have been different.

I've thought about this for a long time.  There is no way that the TG would have lasted too much longer than it did.  While maybe some exclusive games would have prolonged the system a little.  Either way by the end of 94 the system would have been dead, the PC-FX was a huge failure overseas and couldn't be brought here, without a successor NEC would be lost in the realm of SNES, Genesis, Saturn, N64 and playstations.  The era was coming to a close towards the end of it's life and it died when it should of, but along the way it re-wrote history of games, pushed companies overseas such as Sega to push what video games are, and eventually led to companies like Sony to push gaming into the mainstream. The very best we could have hoped for was a better legacy that everyone knows.  But given the way most serious game players and collectors revere the system I like the way things turned out. 

That being said I'd loved it if there were games like mortal kombat, some of the great PCE shooters, and some more RPGs translated.  A few more platformers couldn't have hurt either.

[SignOfZeta]

Box art was/is still hideous lol.

Have to believe that if the Duo had launched along with Mortal Kombat as an exclusive history would have been different.

Yeah, TTI would have gone broke even faster from having payed a gigantic exclusivity fee, robbing us of even more good games.

[esteban]

MEMO TO ALL JAPANOPHILES: Suck my left one. The North American boxart was a GIFT FROM THE GAMING GODS. In real life, nobody looked at cover art for more than a few seconds because they FLIPPED THE BOX OVER TO LOOK AT SCREENSHOTS.

SCREENSHOTS determined whether a game was going to be purchased (in conjunction with magazine reviews).

HATIN' ON COVERART is silly.

FURTHERMORE: All consoles were plagued with poor coverart.

Dig up one of the old threads where I defend North American cover art. SUCK MY LEFT ONE, Japanophiles.

[mac]

MEMO TO ALL JAPANOPHILES: Suck my left one. The North American boxart was a GIFT FROM THE GAMING GODS. In real life, nobody looked at cover art for more than a few seconds because they FLIPPED THE BOX OVER TO LOOK AT SCREENSHOTS.

SCREENSHOTS determined whether a game was going to be purchased (in conjunction with magazine reviews).

HATIN' ON COVERART is silly.

FURTHERMORE: All consoles were plagued with poor coverart.

Dig up one of the old threads where I defend North American cover art. SUCK MY LEFT ONE, Japanophiles.

LOL, well yeah it was better than the Master System.

If I am not mistaken was it not Midway who approached TTI about Mortal Kombat ? Not too mention the Duo was releasing at the same time in N.A. If the Duo was to gain any steam that would have been the time. Then MAYBE TTI could have brought even more games

Have to spend money to make it

[esteban]

MEMO TO ALL JAPANOPHILES: Suck my left one. The North American boxart was a GIFT FROM THE GAMING GODS. In real life, nobody looked at cover art for more than a few seconds because they FLIPPED THE BOX OVER TO LOOK AT SCREENSHOTS.

SCREENSHOTS determined whether a game was going to be purchased (in conjunction with magazine reviews).

HATIN' ON COVERART is silly.

FURTHERMORE: All consoles were plagued with poor coverart.

Dig up one of the old threads where I defend North American cover art. SUCK MY LEFT ONE, Japanophiles.

LOL, well yeah it was better than the Master System.

[Sadler]

MEMO TO ALL JAPANOPHILES: Suck my left one. The North American boxart was a GIFT FROM THE GAMING GODS. In real life, nobody looked at cover art for more than a few seconds because they FLIPPED THE BOX OVER TO LOOK AT SCREENSHOTS.

SCREENSHOTS determined whether a game was going to be purchased (in conjunction with magazine reviews).

HATIN' ON COVERART is silly.

FURTHERMORE: All consoles were plagued with poor coverart.

Dig up one of the old threads where I defend North American cover art. SUCK MY LEFT ONE, Japanophiles.

YES! 

Additionally, the problem wasn't shitty titles out here. The problem was a small library, lack of system sellers (and other awesome, but perhaps not system sellers), and a lack of recognizable games for a US audience. I wouldn't have traded any game US game. I would have assumed I had all the money in the world and brought out a shit ton of games that didn't make it here. Games like:

Anearth Fantasy Stories
Afterburner II
Batman
Bomberman '94
Carmen Sandiego
Castlevania - Rondo of Blood
Coryoon
Double Dragon II
Down Load
Down Load 2
Faceball
Far East of Eden (all)
Flash Hiders
Fray
Kaze Kiri
Legend of Xanadu
Legend of Xanadu II
Lemmings
Metamor Jupiter
Ninja Gaiden
Operation Wolf
Outrun
Panic Bomber
Puyo Puyo
Populous
Rayxanbar II
Schbibin Man 3
Snatcher
Shinobi
Son Son II
Star Parodiar
Street Fighter II
Super Darius
Ys IV - Dawn of Ys

Again, I wouldn't throw out any US release. I know, that totally breaks the spirit of this thread, but lack of titles was a much bigger problem than quality titles. The list I gave is hardly a comprehensive, but that's the kind of games I'd be focusing on.

[A Black Falcon]

Box art was/is still hideous lol.

Have to believe that if the Duo had launched along with Mortal Kombat as an exclusive history would have been different.

I've thought about this for a long time.  There is no way that the TG would have lasted too much longer than it did.  While maybe some exclusive games would have prolonged the system a little.  Either way by the end of 94 the system would have been dead, the PC-FX was a huge failure overseas and couldn't be brought here, without a successor NEC would be lost in the realm of SNES, Genesis, Saturn, N64 and playstations.  The era was coming to a close towards the end of it's life and it died when it should of, but along the way it re-wrote history of games, pushed companies overseas such as Sega to push what video games are, and eventually led to companies like Sony to push gaming into the mainstream. The very best we could have hoped for was a better legacy that everyone knows.  But given the way most serious game players and collectors revere the system I like the way things turned out. 

That being said I'd loved it if there were games like mortal kombat, some of the great PCE shooters, and some more RPGs translated.  A few more platformers couldn't have hurt either. 

I think that what you'd need to do to get the TG16 more successful in the West includes a few things... first, release it in 1988 instead of 1989; second, release it in Europe (and in '89, preferably, '90 at the latest); and last, actually try to sell it nationwide, with better marketing, so as to try to keep little Sega from beating NEC.

Because really, the only way to get a better '90s situation for the TG16 is to change thigns from the beginning.  When the Genesis beat the TG16 in 1989, and people wanted Altered Beast more than Keith Courage or the other TG16 games... well, it was only downhill from there for the system.  I mean, losing to Sonic I could understand, that's one of the great games of all time.  But losing to Altered Beast, really?  That game really isn't that great... they must have been able to do better.  (I personally think that Keith Courage is actually good, too, though I know some people disagree on that point.)

I mean, getting Mortal Kombat and/or Castlevania Rondo of Blood in 1992-1993 would have been pretty awesome, but by that point it was way too late to turn things around, people had already made their choices for the SNES or Genesis.

And on that note, one issue with some of these game swaps is, are the games people are proposint to swap them for actually available when that US release released?  Because if they weren't yet, that's not really a swap that could have worked...

[Arkhan Asylum]

Keith Courage > Altered Beast.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Yeah, the dumbass on the box shouldn't have been there.

They needed something cool, like tits and robots.

[mac]

Yeah, the dumbass on the box shouldn't have been there.

They needed something cool, like tits and robots.

lmao that would have been great !!!

[Bardoly]

And on that note, one issue with some of these game swaps is, are the games people are proposing to swap them for actually available when that US release released?  Because if they weren't yet, that's not really a swap that could have worked...

I thought about creating this thread and saying that one could only swap PC Engine games in which were released in the same year or earlier, but I felt that this would burden people too much and hamper the discussion.  But yes, I agree that doing so would make this 'alternate reality' more realistic.

[CrackTiger]

Looks like I won't have time soon to put together a swapped list, but a few games that I'd bring over and re-label are:

Gradius II = Turbo Gradius IV
Dracula X = Turbo Castlevania V
Strip Fighter II' = Violent Vixens


I'd run ads comparing Turbo Gradius IV compared to Super Gradius III, showing how much less slowdown there is in similar situations. The aesthetics would also make it look like it could be a sequel instead if a prequel.

I'd censor all of the nudity in SFII' and cut the girly scenes. It would still be an nice looking and good enough playing HuCard fighting game during a time when people were desparate to try any and every fighting game they could get their hands on. This and Street Fighter II' CE would be marketed with the Turbo Express. Even after Turbo/SCE and SSFII were released, Champion Edition would still be a killer app for portables.

[esteban]

Looks like I won't have time soon to put together a swapped list, but a few games that I'd bring over and re-label are:

Gradius II = Turbo Gradius IV
Dracula X = Turbo Castlevania V
Strip Fighter II' = Violent Vixens


I'd run ads comparing Turbo Gradius IV compared to Super Gradius III, showing how much less slowdown there is in similar situations. The aesthetics would also make it look like it could be a sequel instead if a prequel.

I'd censor all of the nudity in SFII' and cut the girly scenes. It would still be an nice looking and good enough playing HuCard fighting game during a time when people were desparate to try any and every fighting game they could get their hands on. This and Street Fighter II' CE would be marketed with the Turbo Express. Even after Turbo/SCE and SSFII were released, Champion Edition would still be a killer app for portables.

Excellent.

FURTHER PLANS:

1. A year after the release of Violent Vixens, an anonymous source leaks a code to unlock nudity in the game.

2. Since NEC/TTi is localizing a "clean" version Strip Fighter II'...they will go the extra mile...so that North America actually gets Violent Vixens Turbo to parallel the evolution of the SF franchise.

3. A nascent, but tremendously talented young l'artiste, sunteam_paul, is commissioned to create new cover art for Violent Vixens. That's right, the Japanese artwork will stay in Japan. SUCK MY LEFT ONE JAPANOPHILES.