Were CDs Cheap to Press in the 90s?

[TheClash603]

I was just thinking about some of the more expensive CD games for the TG16.  These games are very expensive because they are hard to find.  The question I have is why?

I have to imagine that the cost of programming a game, designing the packaging, marketing, etc. was quite expensive.  With that high cost, why only press a few thousand games?  Some estimates are as low as 1,500 to 3,000 copies.

It seems that the cost to press a few hundred games in 2013 is about $500.  Was the cost of pressing CDs in the 90s much higher?  I thought that the transition from cartridge to CD was prompted by two things, more storage and cheaper medium.

If there were a hundreds of thousands of systems sold in the U.S., why not just press 20,000 CDs and spend the extra few thousands of dollars?  If the company already had many thousands of dollars committed to the game, what is a few grand more?

Am I missing something here?  Were CDs very expensive to press in the 90s?

[Tatsujin]

It might have been more expensive back then than it is today, but I still believe that it was still much cheaper than producing HuCards/Turbochips.

[FiftyQuid]

There wasn't internet back then.  You print 20,000 copies then you have to distribute 20,000 copies.  EBGames didn't exist back then, maybe they just didn't get that big an order from Radio Shack.  That's just my guess. 

[nectarsis]

There wasn't internet back then.  You print 20,000 copies then you have to distribute 20,000 copies.  EBGames didn't exist back then, maybe they just didn't get that big an order from Radio Shack.  That's just my guess.  

Funny, the EBGames (and Babbages, etc. that already DID exist) by me had plenty of Turbo ;)

[VestCunt]

By 1999, my high school had ONE band with a CD to sell. Whether this indicates Nineties' replication costs or today's over-saturation of indy bands, I don't know.

[SignOfZeta]

There wasn't internet back then.  You print 20,000 copies then you have to distribute 20,000 copies.  EBGames didn't exist back then, maybe they just didn't get that big an order from Radio Shack.  That's just my guess. 

EBGames most definitely did exist, it's where I bought my Duo. It was just called Electronics Boutique, but same thing.

As for the numbers, yeah, what would you do with 20,000 copies? Turbo was NOT popular. TTI was lucky to sell one copy of a game per store, and there weren't even 1000 EBs at that time. When Dynastic Hero and Godzilla came out the only brick and mortars still carrying Turbo were the Die Hard franchises and perhaps Game Dude. TTI probably sold the vast majority of the games themselves directly and they would have know how many customers they had (very few).

It wasn't that expensive to press CDs. Less than $2 each, but a couple of thousand bucks is still a couple of thousand bucks.

[ParanoiaDragon]

I bought a my games at Babbage's(along with the CD unit), & Toys R Us.  Back then, I didn't even know Radio Shack had them, never went there very often.  There was also Software Etc.  Pretty sure I bought some of my games from them as well.

[SignOfZeta]

Of course people buy stuff at Radio Shack. Lots of people have Grandmas.

[TheClash603]

The question then is how much did it cost to program a game, create packaging, etc?

If it cost tens of thousands of dollars, why even press the game at all if you are going to make less than 3,000 copies?  Wouldn't you be doomed to fail right at the start, because the production run wouldn't be able to turn a profit?

Seems like business 101 is to not advance with a project that cannot make money.

[DragonmasterDan]

The question then is how much did it cost to program a game, create packaging, etc?

If it cost tens of thousands of dollars, why even press the game at all if you are going to make less than 3,000 copies?  Wouldn't you be doomed to fail right at the start, because the production run wouldn't be able to turn a profit?

Seems like business 101 is to not advance with a project that cannot make money.

I remember hearing that a regular CD release (this was in reference to Sega CD including it's giant plastic case rather than the earlier cardboard box releases compared to a Genesis cartridge) cost under 5.00 to manufacture, while a Genesis cartridge at its cheapest for a third party would have been more than double that around 1993.

[NecroPhile]

It probably didn't cost 'tens of thousands' to put out stuff like Cotton, Dynastic Hero, or Godzilla, as they're not all that different from the PCE versions and they would've had access to the original code and artwork.  And making CDs was not all that more expensive then than it is now, but why make what you can't sell?  TZD had these titles available for years after TTi went tits up, meaning the meager numbers they did produce was still too many.

A better question is what did it cost to make HuCARDs towards the end?  Unless they were relatively cheap (close to CDs), I don't know how they could make the math work out to make stuff like Tonma and Magical Chase.

[DragonmasterDan]

It probably didn't cost 'tens of thousands' to put out stuff like Cotton, Dynastic Hero, or Godzilla, as they're not all that different from the PCE versions and they would've had access to the original code and artwork.  And making CDs was not all that more expensive then than it is now, but why make what you can't sell?  TZD had these titles available for years after TTi went tits up, meaning the meager numbers they did produce was still too many.

Yep, and as mentioned the only places that were buying those late release games when they were brand new were Electronics Boutique, Babbages, Software Etc, some mom and pop stores and the Turbo Zone mail order. The distribution channel once Toys R us quit buying new TG16 games had really dried up. It was asked earlier by Clash

"If there were a hundreds of thousands of systems sold in the U.S., why not just press 20,000 CDs and spend the extra few thousands of dollars?  If the company already had many thousands of dollars committed to the game, what is a few grand more?"

There weren't hundreds of thousands of CD systems sold in the U.S. A generous estimate might be 50,000 counting all US Duo's and US Super CD system cards. Let's say they printed 1,500 of a game. Doubling that order might actually have eliminated any profit margin. Especially when they knew the distribution needed to sell double the number of copies just wasn't there. With that said I know a second printing of Dungeon Explorer II happened because the initial 1,000 or so apparently had sold out while TTI was still operational. Since they had all the materials (manual design, etc) needed in place it was a "wait and see" approach with regards to printing more than what they felt was a minimum order.

[FiftyQuid]

Funny, the EBGames (and Babbages, etc. that already DID exist) by me had plenty of Turbo ;)

EBGames most definitely did exist, it's where I bought my Duo. It was just called Electronics Boutique, but same thing.

I stand corrected. I remember Electronics Boutique, I think we had one, but I don't remember them selling Sega, Nintendo or TG-16.

The only places Turbo existed in my hood back in the day was at Radio Shack (where I bought mine) and Consumers Distributing.  We had a shop called Compucenter that sold console games as well, but it was mainly a shop for personal computers.

Anyone here remember Compaq?  How about Tabworks?  Ha!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TabWorks

[VestCunt]

Fifty - you're in Canada right? There were differences there and in the U.S. If I understand correctly, TG16 games were sold off-the-shelf in Canadian Radioshacks. In the U.S., we had to go to the back of the store and order them out of the parts catalogs. After Toys R Us threw in the towel, EB was perhaps the best mainstream source of late-period TTI games.

[FiftyQuid]

Fifty - you're in Canada right? There were differences there and in the U.S. If I understand correctly, TG16 games were sold off-the-shelf in Canadian Radioshacks. In the U.S., we had to go to the back of the store and order them out of the parts catalogs. After Toys R Us threw in the towel, EB was perhaps the best mainstream source of late-period TTI games.

Yep.  I was going to say I don't remember Toys R Us selling them either, but I can't remember.  I don't even think we had a Toys R Us in my area in the 90's.

[CrackTiger]

The Bay carried Turbo stuff. Zellers probably did also.

[MrFlutterPie]

I'm from Canada and I only ever remember Radio Shack selling Turbo stuff.  The ones near me always had a demo unit outside with either Bonk or Kieth Courage.  I talked to a guy recently and he said they had a very limited selection sold at Zellers.  He said they had two racks in the case with several different games per rack.

[xcrement5x]

It might have been more expensive back then than it is today, but I still believe that it was still much cheaper than producing HuCards/Turbochips.

Yeah, I remember reading one time where Victor Ireland was talking about how with their first 2 games they were hit bad on the cost for Parasol Stars, but Cadash did super well so it balanced out.  Since the CD games were much cheaper to make, it was much better for them to do other games in that format so they weren't at so much risk.

[DragonmasterDan]

Yeah, I remember reading one time where Victor Ireland was talking about how with their first 2 games they were hit bad on the cost for Parasol Stars, but Cadash did super well so it balanced out.  Since the CD games were much cheaper to make, it was much better for them to do other games in that format so they weren't at so much risk.

Yep, I think in one of those podcast interviews he did promoting the Class of Heroes 2 kickstarted he mentioned the roughly 5.00 manufacturing costs on Sega CDs being the reason that was the next format they moved to. While that doesn't include licensing fees and such, it was less than half of what it would have cost to any cartridge based game.

[SeymorOnion]

The question then is how much did it cost to program a game, create packaging, etc?

If it cost tens of thousands of dollars, why even press the game at all if you are going to make less than 3,000 copies?  Wouldn't you be doomed to fail right at the start, because the production run wouldn't be able to turn a profit?

Seems like business 101 is to not advance with a project that cannot make money.

Bold mine.
Now I know what caused my sneezing fit, earlier this morning... 

As of 11:59pm on December 31'st, 2012
# of HuCARD Sleeves Made: 30,825 (by me)
# of HuCARD Sleeves Sold: 5,815 (by itself, this is a good number) 
# of HuCard Sleeves Remaining: 25,010 

Even so, I have no regrets.

[TheClash603]

I guess the Dungeon Explorer II comment puts things in perspective, since the capability was there to press additional games if needed.  As the need for a second pressing only came up once, the low print runs make sense.

I suppose you could've done a chop shop operation and quickly sent out regionalized copies of JP games for dirt cheap as well, I guess my cost estimates were high.  Change on a lot of these games amounted to less than 100 lines of text.

It seems the real issue was the distribution of games and reluctance of stores to carry TG16.  Too bad TG16 didn't get stronger support from the big box retailers.  This would've meant the minimum pressings would've been higher and games would be easier to get today.

[Duo_R]

We had an electronic retailer called Good Guys selling Turbo stuff in California. That is where I bought my Turbo Duo and Turbo Express. Toys R Us had a good amount of stuff. i didn't get a whole lot from EB games but they had some stuff I recall buying several late release Swga CD games from there pretty good deals.

[DragonmasterDan]

It seems the real issue was the distribution of games and reluctance of stores to carry TG16.  Too bad TG16 didn't get stronger support from the big box retailers.  This would've meant the minimum pressings would've been higher and games would be easier to get today.

When 3DO and Jaguar hit in late 1993, that meant TurboGrafx stuff got taken out of the plan-o-gram in a lot of stores (if they hadn't cleared it out earlier).

[VestCunt]

'93-94 was such an exciting time: SO many different systems and companies, constant new technology, and the golden age of bargain bins.

[FiftyQuid]

It seems the real issue was the distribution of games and reluctance of stores to carry TG16.  Too bad TG16 didn't get stronger support from the big box retailers.  This would've meant the minimum pressings would've been higher and games would be easier to get today.

Not to mention it was a real pain in the ass trying to get a CD-ROM inserted into a Turbo Express.  

Like Flutterpie stated, in Canada, Turbo might have been selling in places other than Radio Shack, but those other places were few and far between up here.  I live in the Capital of Canada and I don't remember having a Toys R Us or Electronic Boutiques around here during the 90's.  We have plenty of them now, just not then.  At least not where I grew up.

[SignOfZeta]

'93-94 was such an exciting time: SO many different systems and companies, constant new technology, and the golden age of bargain bins.

If you ask me, the golden age of bargain bins is now.

[TheClash603]

'93-94 was such an exciting time: SO many different systems and companies, constant new technology, and the golden age of bargain bins.

If you ask me, the golden age of bargain bins is now.

I honestly don't thing Xbox and PS2 games will ever be worth anything though, so the current bargain bins are likely evergreen.

[SignOfZeta]

'93-94 was such an exciting time: SO many different systems and companies, constant new technology, and the golden age of bargain bins.

If you ask me, the golden age of bargain bins is now.

I honestly don't thing Xbox and PS2 games will ever be worth anything though, so the current bargain bins are likely evergreen.

You'd be forgiven for thinking that but...Gamecube is blowing up right now and there are very few "rare" games for it. There are quite a few fan-ish PS2 games. While %99 of the library will turf out at $1 and stay there forever, there a will be about 50 games that will probably be $80-150 in 5 years.

[DragonmasterDan]

I honestly don't thing Xbox and PS2 games will ever be worth anything though, so the current bargain bins are likely evergreen.

PSP, Wii and DS games are in the bargain bin right now, and won't stay there forever.

[mac]

Far as getting Turbo stuff here in Ky you had 2 options in 1989, order through Sears or make the drive to Toy's R Us in Louisville (90 miles). They had tons of stuff at launch and really until late 90 or 91 was the only place to pick stuff up. Many fond memories of few of us guys driving up there to pick up a new title or 2

Sadly also remember the Duo's last days as I picked up Parasol Stars, Night Creatures, New Adventure Island for 10.00 bucks each

[FiftyQuid]

It makes you wonder... Would the TurboGrafx-16 been more successful if internet and online sales were available back then.  Lack of distribution through brick n' mortar stores is eliminated.  I remember Nintendo was everywhere.  I even remember see them being sold at my local convenience store.  Imagine if NEC had this level of distribution.

[CrackTiger]

I mail ordered lots of Turbo and PCE games bitd. If it was as easy as it is today, I would probably have bought all of my games online. Of course, then used games sales would have hurt NEC/TTi.

[Nando]

Babbages in Montreal (Neon Plaza to be exact) used to carry the Turbo and I recall seeing the Duo as well. In late 89 you could play the games at the store I would visit, they would even let you play games they had opened for "demo" purposes. Which was the first time I had played fighting street outside of the arcades.

[DragonmasterDan]

It makes you wonder... Would the TurboGrafx-16 been more successful if internet and online sales were available back then.  Lack of distribution through brick n' mortar stores is eliminated.  I remember Nintendo was everywhere.  I even remember see them being sold at my local convenience store.  Imagine if NEC had this level of distribution.

There was the Turbo Zone Direct mail order. Both when TTI was still around and afterwards.

[SignOfZeta]

I wasn't a huge TZD customer, but I did get several things from them, mostly imports. I'm not exactly sure when true Internet sales started with them (maybe it never happened with TTI) but that's what phones were for.

[DragonmasterDan]

I wasn't a huge TZD customer, but I did get several things from them, mostly imports. I'm not exactly sure when true Internet sales started with them (maybe it never happened with TTI) but that's what phones were for.

They had a site in the very early days of the internet. Maybe 1995 or so but you couldn't pay online. It just had a list of their inventory, their options for repairs, prices and a number to call and an address to send a check or money order to.

They later added an order form, but you would leave your phone number and they would call you for credit card info.

[SignOfZeta]

I actually mailed them money orders!

[NecroPhile]

I begged my Dad to let me use his credit card. 

[CrackTiger]

TZD wouldn't sell to Canadians for years, then for a while they would, but charged something crazy like a $50 handling fee on top of shipping. Finally, once they began charging reasonable shipping prices, all that they had left (for sale to the public at least) was common games at a time when virtually all Turbo games were easy to find online.

Working Designs couldn't sell games in Canada until they jumped to Sega CD, but they were great to deal with on the phone and sold direct to me Cosmic Fantasy 2 and Exile. I got Vasteel during a trip to Seattle.

[esteban]

I mail ordered lots of Turbo and PCE games bitd. If it was as easy as it is today, I would probably have bought all of my games online. Of course, then used games sales would have hurt NEC/TTi.

Good point: the double-edged sword. NEC/TTi would have benefitted from greater (potential) reach of online sales...at least amongst the folks who were online. BUT, this would have been partially countered by the used game market (TurboList and BBS had active sales/trading via old-skool platforms without needing the fancy new browser + Internet).

Still, it seems that the "Internet era" (vs. brick-n-mortar distribution) would have been much more conducive to nurturing and supporting a niche console like TG-16/DUO. 

STATUS: Really, we should be asking ourselves, "Why the heck did big retailers like ToysRUs, EB, Software Etc, etc. continue carrying TG-16 for as long as they did? Were they truly selling enough to justify the shelf-space? Did the fact that there were SO FEW places to purchase TG-16 items actually help the handful of vendors (because it made them the "only source"; de facto)?

When Saturn launched, I remember buying discounted games at TrU (Vasteel for $10). I was simply accompanying my friend as he bought new Saturn games and was shocked that TG-16 software was still in the damn building.

[VestCunt]

It's important to remember that you could still order games before the internet; you just had to browse the pages of EMG and VG&CE for ads and call the numbers. I ordered from BRE Software, Gamedude, Video Game Network (MN) and Game Go Round (NYC) in addition to EGM.

Still, it seems that the "Internet era" (vs. brick-n-mortar distribution) would have been much more conducive to nurturing and supporting a niche console like TG-16/DUO. 

+1. Bottom line is more TG vendors would have helped TTI move consoles = more players = Duo longevity.