Meteor Blaster DX Reprint

[ParanoiaDragon]

Wow, I'm really hoping this new pressing house works out!  It's be nice to have zero problems with future games being pressed, along with him being a Turbo fan!

[esteban]

Well, all is not lost ... not yet anyway.  I have found another CD pressing house.. .yes they use Eclipse.  However this one has one big difference,  The owner is a 20+ year TurboDuo fan.  I will be sending him a master tomorrow and working with him to figure out how to proceed.

Well, this is the GODDAMN SILVER LINING in the homebrew tempest that has been brewing.

If things work out (ha! here's hoping...), you have found a superior vendor.

[esadajr]

This http://turbo.mindrec.com/ is the site for subscribing, but I don't think the server is working properly because it sent me back a bunch of gibberish.

Use an email client that can send in plain text (the server is old and does nto know how to handle MIME encoded emails).

Send an email to turbo-list-request (at) mindrec.com
and place the word:

subscribe

in the subject line.

The server will send back an email with confirmation directions.  Send another email to that same email addy with the confirmation command (in the reply you got) and you'll be on the list.

It worked using Yahoo mail. Thanks!

[Mishran]

I tried the turbo list again today and got it to work too. Own the original MBDX, but plan on picking this up when available anyway.

[Bardoly]

@bt

Any update on how this new CD pressing house deal is going?

[Bt Garner]

Any update on how this new CD pressing house deal is going?

I sent off a second set of Masters on Wednesday.  Awaiting word on how they look.

[Duo_R]

BT are you taking pre-orders?

[Bt Garner]

BT are you taking pre-orders?

I will not take orders untiL I know that the CDs are going to be pressed, and not until I have a delivery date.

This is a great example as to why I do that.  Had I taken pre-orders and things do not work out (or take another 6+ weeks to work out), it is just a headache to refund orders, and try to re-gain that goodwill once the time that *real* pre-orders can take place.

I am truly hoping this works out ...

something else is already in the works.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I am truly hoping this works out ...

something else is already in the works.

Looks a lot like Nova Blast!   Is that what it is? ;)

[ParanoiaDragon]

I had to do some googling, since I had very little exposure to Coleco or Intellevision, but yup, looks like Nova Blast!

Is Nate doing the music for this next project?

[esteban]

I am truly hoping this works out ...

something else is already in the works.

I heartily approve

[NightWolve]

Well, all is not lost ... not yet anyway.  I have found another CD pressing house.. .yes they use Eclipse.  However this one has one big difference,  The owner is a 20+ year TurboDuo fan.  I will be sending him a master tomorrow and working with him to figure out how to proceed.

What's the website of this other pressing house ?? Would be good to know. Really, I don't understand why there is a problem with NEC mixed-mode discs - they were pressed just fine in that era... They are following the Yellow Book specifications: A 3 second pregap when you transition from an audio track to a data track, and a 2 second postgap when going from data to audio, etc. I had added the info from a MMC document into TurboRip's ReadMe for reference:

****  6.2.11.6. Pre-gap ****
   If a Data track is preceded by a different mode of track (such as an audio
   track) or if the mode number of CD-ROM changes, this Data track starts with
   an extended pre-gap. A pre-gap is placed at the head of a Data track, also
   is belonging to the Data track. A pre-gap does not contain actual user data.
   The pre-gap is encoded as "pause."

   An extended pre-gap is divided into two parts. The first part of the
   extended pre-gap has a minimum 1 second of data, and it is encoded according
   to the data structure of previous track. The second part has a minimum 2
   seconds data, and this data track is encoded according to the same data
   structure as the other parts.

   ****  6.2.11.7. Post-gap ****
   If a Data track is followed by another kind of track (such as an audio
   track), this Data track ends with a post-gap. A post-gap is placed at the
   end of a Data track, and is part of the Data Track. A post-gap does not
   contain actual user data. The minimum length of post-gap is 2 seconds. The
   drive does not perform any action for a Post-gap.

So yeah, that's what they were doing. In the case of the pregap, it's 2+1 seconds (going by the recommended minimum), so 3 seconds of it as everyone would see when looking at a CUE file after ripping an original disc.

[OldMan]

In the case of the pregap, it's 2+1 seconds (going by the recommended minimum), so 3 seconds of it as everyone would see when looking at a CUE file after ripping an original disc.

Yep. The problem <apparently> is that the p-q codes which indicate the track type have to change at those intervals...which seems to screw with the pressing software.
(ie, the 2 sec gap has to be encoded as an audio track, while the 1 sec extended gap has to be encoded as a data track.)

I wonder how badly we can screw with them when we build a turbo cd with cd+g tracks
(Don't laugh. cdrecord will supposedly do it on a linux box. I've been playing with it, but haven't got that far...yet

[ParanoiaDragon]

In the case of the pregap, it's 2+1 seconds (going by the recommended minimum), so 3 seconds of it as everyone would see when looking at a CUE file after ripping an original disc.

Yep. The problem <apparently> is that the p-q codes which indicate the track type have to change at those intervals...which seems to screw with the pressing software.
(ie, the 2 sec gap has to be encoded as an audio track, while the 1 sec extended gap has to be encoded as a data track.)

I wonder how badly we can screw with them when we build a turbo cd with cd+g tracks
(Don't laugh. cdrecord will supposedly do it on a linux box. I've been playing with it, but haven't got that far...yet

We've talked about possibly doing a CD+G for one of our releases, but, sheesh, I do wonder if that'll really throw them for a loop!

[NightWolve]

In the case of the pregap, it's 2+1 seconds (going by the recommended minimum), so 3 seconds of it as everyone would see when looking at a CUE file after ripping an original disc.

Yep. The problem <apparently> is that the p-q codes which indicate the track type have to change at those intervals...which seems to screw with the pressing software.
(ie, the 2 sec gap has to be encoded as an audio track, while the 1 sec extended gap has to be encoded as a data track.)

Hmmm, here's the thing, does it really matter if that subcode data isn't changed to reflect a strict recommended *guideline* ??

Take this for example:

FILE "01 Fighting Street (J).wav" WAVE
  TRACK 01 AUDIO
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
FILE "02 Fighting Street (J).iso" BINARY
  TRACK 02 MODE1/2048
    PREGAP 00:03:00
    INDEX 01 00:00:00
    POSTGAP 00:02:00
FILE "03 Fighting Street (J).wav" WAVE
  TRACK 03 AUDIO
    INDEX 01 00:00:00

If I were to burn that and analyze it, I'd find that those 3 seconds of pregap will entirely belong to the data track (the subcode data would indicate track 2 and index 00). All the LBAs of every track thereafter will still match the original and the game will work just fine. Some copy protection systems would rely on the data in those 3 seconds of pregap to detect a burn, but that of course was never a problem with NEC systems. In such cases, and when dealing with pure audio discs (index 00 was for a pre announcement/intro before the song actually starts) you'd wanna preserve it when reading the track and that would result in something like this to burn it back:

FILE "02 Fighting Street (J).iso" BINARY
  TRACK 02 MODE1/2048
    INDEX 00 00:00:00
    INDEX 01 00:03:00
    POSTGAP 00:02:00

Such a data track would simply have 3 seconds of extra sectors in the beginning and it would get burned back in the duplicate exactly as it was in the original resulting in a more 1:1 copy. Pregap = index 00, same thing, just that when you use the pregap command in the CUE file, the burner will determine what data is actually burned there (and not read from the file), probably just all zeros, etc. A postgap is usually unburned, skipped sectors, so if a laser read in that area, you'd get a read error.

Anyway, I'm not sure that is the problem, what you're mentioning, that "the 2 sec gap has to be encoded as an audio track, while the 1 sec extended gap has to be encoded as a data track." It doesn't matter, at least it shouldn't. The software shouldn't try to bother to accomplish exactly what the strict guideline is calling for. All the CD-Rs that were ever burned with a CUE file like my first example work fine on real NEC hardware.

[OldMan]

...does it really matter if that subcode data isn't changed to reflect a strict recommended *guideline* ??

It wouldn't if it were just a recomendation. It's not. See iso/iec10149, section 20.

As for example 1:

If I were to burn that and analyze it, I'd find that those 3 seconds of pregap will entirely belong to the data track (the subcode data would indicate track 2 and index 00). All the LBAs of every track thereafter will still match the original and the game will work just fine.

Yes, the pre-gap will belong to the data track. That's what you asked for, that -should- be what you get.
However, you -should- end up with a 2 sec gap after track 1, then your 3 sec pre-gap. Yes, the game would play just fine - the PCE doesn't check tracks that closely (even to the point of ignoring data track checksums, iirc). I'm not so sure the LBA's would match, though - and I'm pretty sure the time stamps encoded in the track headers would be wrong.

In such cases, and when dealing with pure audio discs (index 00 was for a pre announcement/intro before the song actually starts) you'd wanna preserve it when reading the track and that would result in something like this to burn it back:
....
Such a data track would simply have 3 seconds of extra sectors in the beginning and it would get burned back in the duplicate exactly as it was in the original resulting in a more 1:1 copy. Pregap = index 00, same thing, just that when you use the pregap command in the CUE file, the burner will determine what data is actually burned there (and not read from the file), probably just all zeros, etc.

Yes, the data track would have 3 seconds of extra sectors at the begining; I'm not so sure it would be a 'more' 1:1 copy, Because pregap != index00. Again, the iso/iec docs state that gaps are encoded as a 'pause' type sector (pq=00), whereas indexes are encoded as information sectors. They are not the same thing, though many program treat them as such.
And for the record, the burner only writes what it is given - the software determines what is in the pregaps. Sometimes it is all 0's, but not always.

It doesn't matter, at least it shouldn't. The software shouldn't try to bother to accomplish exactly what the strict guideline is calling for. All the CD-Rs that were ever burned with a CUE file like my first example work fine on real NEC hardware.

Whether such things -should- matter is open for debate; the fact is, to produce an iso standard disc as required by the pressers, it -does- matter. And yes, we've already covered that the PCE will run CDs that are not iso compliant; they work fine. That should not be taken to mean that they are 'correct' as required by the presser, however.

I've had this discussion with many, many people. They all seem to make the same mistake: Just because a particular program burns a particular disc that works does not mean the program burned it correctly. Furthermore, just because a particular cue sheet appears to give you a correctly formatted cd does not mean it is iso compliant.
Programmers are lazy: in my general experience, different progams implement the mixed-mode cd slightly differently.
Different programs create different discs from the exact same cue sheet and file. We live with it, and work around the problems when needed.

[Bt Garner]

Update on things.

I just heard back form the CD House.  The owner took 2 of the 3 press samples they made and tried them on his Duo, and he says they worked flawlessly -- he apparently had a good time playing MB all weekend.  So all 3 samples are en route to me, and I will have them on Wednesday.

The name of the company is OMM DVD (ommdvd.com), they are in Indianapolis.

[jlued686]

Awesome! No more fucking around with Nationwide, or whatever they're called? Sounds good to me!

[Bt Garner]

Awesome! No more fucking around with Nationwide, or whatever they're called? Sounds good to me!

I am hoping so -- don't get me wrong, they (Nationwide) were very nice people, but technically, they seemed to have  a hard time fighting their way out of a wet paper bag.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I am convinced you guys all went to a different Nationwide Disc.

[Bt Garner]

I am convinced you guys all went to a different Nationwide Disc.

I think it depends on the rep you get.  I dealt with 2.  The first guy was very tech oriented, and understood (or at least seemed to) that this was going to be "non standard."  But once they got all the assets, I had to deal with a different person.  A very nice person, but completely out of her  league on the technical side.

For OMMDVD, I am getting a similar price per unit that I was getting with NWCD, though I am getting more units (400, versus 300).  The artwork will be of a higher quality, since they were able to use the original Quark files (and not JPGs).

[CrackTiger]

Update on things.

I just heard back form the CD House.  The owner took 2 of the 3 press samples they made and tried them on his Duo, and he says they worked flawlessly -- he apparently had a good time playing MB all weekend.  So all 3 samples are en route to me, and I will have them on Wednesday.

The name of the company is OMM DVD (ommdvd.com), they are in Indianapolis.

So how many hundreds of dollars did they charge you for each test disc?

[Arkhan Asylum]

since they were able to use the original Quark files (and not JPGs).

Huhmmm.    I sent NWD a bunch of high-res PSD files.   

[Bt Garner]

So how many hundreds of dollars did they charge you for each test disc?

It was part of the package deal, knowing that Eclipse would fail.

[Bt Garner]

Huhmmm.    I sent NWD a bunch of high-res PSD files.   

Again, it seems to depend upon which rep you get.  I was told to submit either JPG or PNG images, no other choices were given.

[Arkhan Asylum]

So how many hundreds of dollars did they charge you for each test disc?

It was part of the package deal, knowing that Eclipse would fail.

I didn't write that, lol.  BrackTiger did!

[CrackTiger]

since they were able to use the original Quark files (and not JPGs).

Huhmmm.    I sent NWD a bunch of high-res PSD files.   

I did everything based on their template faq. They list four acceptible formats. Although their initial covers/label test mockups were terribly off center, that part of the process was actually pretty smooth.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Yeah but, they supplied JPGs?  Or did you? 

JPGs seems like a bad idea.

[Bt Garner]

Yeah but, they supplied JPGs?  Or did you? 

JPGs seems like a bad idea.

JPG for print media is a bad idea.

[Bt Garner]

Check Discs have arrived, and they all run on Duo hardware.

[TheClash603]

Where do I get to order now?    Mailing list didn't seem to work for me, so please make sure to let everyone know here too!

BTW - Turbograpx!?  I thought you said the guy that worked there was a fan!?

[Bt Garner]

Where do I get to order now?    Mailing list didn't seem to work for me, so please make sure to let everyone know here too!

BTW - Turbograpx!?  I thought you said the guy that worked there was a fan!?

I never included that info -- I suspect it was dictated to someone else.  Typos be damned, the bloody things works, which is more than I can say for the original MB test disc I received in 2004.

I will talk to them tomorrow about the pressing schedule, and once I get an estimated arrival date, I can start looking at orders.

[OldMan]

Congratulations!

[ParanoiaDragon]

Sweet!!!!!!  Not only do we have a new pressed version of MB, but a new presser to go to!  Though, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, should wait till the finished games are in all of our hands?

[CrackTiger]

Can't wait to try the new version.

[hoobs88]

Where do I get to order now?    Mailing list didn't seem to work for me, so please make sure to let everyone know here too!

BTW - Turbograpx!?  I thought you said the guy that worked there was a fan!?

Mailing list didn't work for me either. Keep me posted on when these are ready to ship.
Long live Turbograpx!

[esteban]

Check Discs have arrived, and they all run on Duo hardware.

Splendid. Simply splendid.

[esadajr]

Just pre ordered mine!

[DragonmasterDan]

pre-ordered!

[FiftyQuid]

Just pre ordered mine!

Ditto.

Why do I have this sinking feeling that May is going to be an expensive turbob month?  

[EDIT] Wait... You said these were tested on a Duo, what about TG-CD?

[VestCunt]

Where did you guys preorder?

[FiftyQuid]

Where did you guys preorder?

Through the mailing list.  I received an email about it today.

[VestCunt]

Damn. I thought I subscribed last week, but didn't realize I had to reply with a confirmation code.

[FiftyQuid]

Damn. I thought I subscribed last week, but didn't realize I had to reply with a confirmation code.

Rookie.    

[Duo_R]

I am on the list but no email today....

[NecroPhile]

I ordered too!  

[PunkCryborg]

got the pac with implode!

[jlued686]

Pre-ordered mine!

[Arkhan Asylum]

I sent BT a PM, because fuck if I remember any of that mailing list stuff. 

[Duo_R]

Ok I found the email was buried in the spam folder lol. Ordered!