PCE Memories "Turbo Duo Edition"

[greedostick]

I popped over here for this very reason. I really wish I could just get dynastic hero. I already have dungeon explorer II. I really just have no use for the other games. And I can't justify spending $800.00 on Dynastic Hero even though it is one of my all time favorites. I should have kept it while I had it.

[greedostick]

Got mine yesterday, but until I get my Duo from turbokon, I cannot play em.  Has anyone fired them up in their consoles?  It is looking like the TOCs match, because TurboRip and Magic Engine both see them as original games.  I do however seem to have issues with Magic Engine not seeing them as a correct game, just says it's a PCE CD.  Ootake did not have that issue.

Unless Magic Engine has changed. I thought you had to load of CD's on a virtual drive like Daemons Tools. Magic Engine may have came a long way though. I remember when it had no CD support at all.

[Duo_R]

Greedo Tobias might offer them separately in a future release.

[Bernie]

Got mine yesterday, but until I get my Duo from turbokon, I cannot play em.  Has anyone fired them up in their consoles?  It is looking like the TOCs match, because TurboRip and Magic Engine both see them as original games.  I do however seem to have issues with Magic Engine not seeing them as a correct game, just says it's a PCE CD.  Ootake did not have that issue.

Unless Magic Engine has changed. I thought you had to load of CD's on a virtual drive like Daemons Tools. Magic Engine may have came a long way though. I remember when it had no CD support at all.

It has never has ISO support.  You have always had to have a physical disc in your drive, or mounted via virtual drive.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

Got mine yesterday, but until I get my Duo from turbokon, I cannot play em.  Has anyone fired them up in their consoles?  It is looking like the TOCs match, because TurboRip and Magic Engine both see them as original games.  I do however seem to have issues with Magic Engine not seeing them as a correct game, just says it's a PCE CD.  Ootake did not have that issue.

[NecroPhile]

I really just have no use for the other games.

You.  Suck. 

[greedostick]

I really just have no use for the other games.

You.  Suck. 

Yeah... You got me. I didn't realize Bonk 3 CD was included. I was thinking it was that wretched Kaze Kiri. Which you probably don't think is a much better statement on my part. But I just have no use for Godzilla. Owned it, hated it. And like I said I already have Dungeon Explorer 2. I may reconsider my ignorance and try and get on one of these possible second runs.

[wyndcrosser]

What I didn't get is that it's not a turbografx release, as it has Japanese designs. Also, why reproduce games that are already out there? Why not Castlevania, Ys IV, XAK III, etc. I'd think that would be more interesting.

[Mathius]

What I didn't get is that it's not a turbografx release, as it has Japanese designs. Also, why reproduce games that are already out there? Why not Castlevania, Ys IV, XAK III, etc. I'd think that would be more interesting.

Konami would probably go after anyone re-releasing Castlevania. The jury is still out on Bonk 3 with them owning the Hudson brand.

What would be totally awesome would be full packaged translations of Anerth Fantasy Stories and the Legend of Xanadu games. I would pop a table raising boner if that ever happened.

[Keith Courage]

What I didn't get is that it's not a turbografx release, as it has Japanese designs. Also, why reproduce games that are already out there? Why not Castlevania, Ys IV, XAK III, etc. I'd think that would be more interesting.

I assume no one is making discs of these because the people who translated the games are against manufactured discs of any kind being made of them. 

Only time will tell if someone does it anyways.

Also, don't forget about the Startling odyssey II translation. Those 4 games together would make a nice box set. LOL

[NecroPhile]

What I didn't get is that it's not a turbografx release, as it has Japanese designs.

The paper may be using Japanese version art, but the games themselves (aka the important part) are the US versions.

[Nemo]

I love what Tobias is doing here, sorry Steve, and I wish more people would do something similar.  But the reason they don't is it's not profitable.  There used to be a company called TimeWalk games that made complete wth maps, top notch repros for Nes and SNES games.  Stuff like Earthbound Zero and Seiken Densetsu 3 in full English form.  No, you weren't paying for the Roms, those were  stolen from someone who hacked and stole them from the company who owns the rights to them.  You were paying for the quality and experience of playing a brand new 8 or 16-bit game again, which to a lot of people is priceless.  And even at about $70 a pop, these guys weren't quitting their dayjobs, and eventually went out of business, as I knew they would.  But I much rather pay $35 for a brand new, high quality repro of Dynastic Hero, than pay $800 for someone's 14th hand copy with Dorito fingerprints all over it. 

I knew when I bought the Sapphire he made years ago, it wasn't some secret stash Hudson put in a time vault. I'm not that stupid, I knew it was a repro, and he should have said as much, it was pointless to try to mislead people, and most of us would have bought it anyway. Same thing wth Rockman, that was shitty.  So I respect him now for branding the repros he does appropriately and making them easily distinguishable from the originals so people know.  And I encourage more of this because the gaming market has grown disgusting with people that are more concerned with collecting games for bragging rights than ever actually playing them.

[NecroPhile]

Not profitable?  Please.

You can argue that it's not worth the investment in time (which is certainly far less time than people put into fan sites or game translations), but there's NO question that he's turning a profit. 

[esteban]

I love what Tobias is doing here, sorry Steve, and I wish more people would do something similar.  But the reason they don't is it's not profitable.  There used to be a company called TimeWalk games that made complete wth maps, top notch repros for Nes and SNES games.  Stuff like Earthbound Zero and Seiken Densetsu 3 in full English form.  No, you weren't paying for the Roms, those were  stolen from someone who hacked and stole them from the company who owns the rights to them.  You were paying for the quality and experience of playing a brand new 8 or 16-bit game again, which to a lot of people is priceless.  And even at about $70 a pop, these guys weren't quitting their dayjobs, and eventually went out of business, as I knew they would.  But I much rather pay $35 for a brand new, high quality repro of Dynastic Hero, than pay $800 for someone's 14th hand copy with Dorito fingerprints all over it. 

I knew when I bought the Sapphire he made years ago, it wasn't some secret stash Hudson put in a time vault. I'm not that stupid, I knew it was a repro, and he should have said as much, it was pointless to try to mislead people, and most of us would have bought it anyway. Same thing wth Rockman, that was shitty.  So I respect him now for branding the repros he does appropriately and making them easily distinguishable from the originals so people know.  And I encourage more of this because the gaming market has grown disgusting with people that are more concerned with collecting games for bragging rights than ever actually playing them.

You are arguing about a different issue than the one I raised.

Tobias lost my respect when he profited from Bonknuts PCE MegaMan. 

Tobias = 150% douchebag for doing that.

That is my criticism of Tobias.


ASIDE:
I question everyone's reading comprehension.


What Would Baby Jesus Do?

A: I would burn a CD-R (or ask someone to burn it for me) if I really wanted to play one of these unobtainable games. I would never pay $$$$$ for a game.

If Tobias hadn't profited from MegaMan PCE, I wouldn't have an axe to grind.

[HailingTheThings]

I love what Tobias is doing here, sorry Steve, and I wish more people would do something similar.  But the reason they don't is it's not profitable.  There used to be a company called TimeWalk games that made complete wth maps, top notch repros for Nes and SNES games.  Stuff like Earthbound Zero and Seiken Densetsu 3 in full English form.  No, you weren't paying for the Roms, those were  stolen from someone who hacked and stole them from the company who owns the rights to them.  You were paying for the quality and experience of playing a brand new 8 or 16-bit game again, which to a lot of people is priceless.  And even at about $70 a pop, these guys weren't quitting their dayjobs, and eventually went out of business, as I knew they would.  But I much rather pay $35 for a brand new, high quality repro of Dynastic Hero, than pay $800 for someone's 14th hand copy with Dorito fingerprints all over it. 

I knew when I bought the Sapphire he made years ago, it wasn't some secret stash Hudson put in a time vault. I'm not that stupid, I knew it was a repro, and he should have said as much, it was pointless to try to mislead people, and most of us would have bought it anyway. Same thing wth Rockman, that was shitty.  So I respect him now for branding the repros he does appropriately and making them easily distinguishable from the originals so people know.  And I encourage more of this because the gaming market has grown disgusting with people that are more concerned with collecting games for bragging rights than ever actually playing them.

You are arguing about a different issue than the one I raised.

Tobias lost my respect when he profited from Bonknuts PCE MegaMan. 

Tobias = 150% douchebag for doing that.

That is my criticism of Tobias.


ASIDE:
I question everyone's reading comprehension.


What Would Baby Jesus Do?

A: I would burn a CD-R (or ask someone to burn it for me) if I really wanted to play one of these unobtainable games. I would never pay $$$$$ for a game.

If Tobias hadn't profited from MegaMan PCE, I wouldn't have an axe to grind.

Has Bonknuts ever called him out for a cut or something of the sort? I wonder if he talked to him if something could be worked out.

[ParanoiaDragon]

If these were Hucard games for the price asked, then I'd say they're probably not profitable, but, seeing as how these are just CD's, I can't imagine there being no profit involved.

[Nemo]

I'm saying not profitable in terms of making an actual living from it.  Certainly there would have to be some short term gain, or else why would anyone put in the time and effort to do all this instead of popping out generic CD-Rs? That's the whole thing about people criticizing him for his prices saying it can be done for less, well someone else step up and do it for less then.  I'm all for a competitive market.

[clackattack]

A "competitive market" is one thing... making profit on something that you either A.) dont own rights to or B.) have no legal consent to reproduce is borderline breaking the law. Guy by the name Brrraapp or something similar is doing the same thing here and on facebook with fan translated games like DracX, YsIV, and the nes2pce MegaMan. Says he can reproduce anything disc-based and will do so for 40$... and he still claims hes not making any profit even with a price tag like that 8/

[Nemo]

There are numerous intellectual property laws being broken by gamers everday, so we would have to get into an argument that one sin is worse than another. Fans hacking games and distributing them for free is just as illegal. Most people don't have an issue with it because no individual is "profiting" per se, but the money a consumer spends on a high quality repro is for the package, presentation, and experience itself. As countless others have said, the ROMs are widely available for nothing.  And to be fair, tens of thousands of people freesharing pirated games is far more damaging to a market and owners of said intellectual property than someone selling a few hundred repros.

[CrackTiger]

There are numerous intellectual property laws being broken by gamers everday, so we would have to get into an argument that one sin is worse than another. Fans hacking games and distributing them for free is just as illegal. Most people don't have an issue with it because no individual is "profiting" per se, but the money a consumer spends on a high quality repro is for the package, presentation, and experience itself. As countless others have said, the ROMs are widely available for nothing.  And to be fair, tens of thousands of people freesharing pirated games is far more damaging to a market and owners of said intellectual property than someone selling a few hundred repros. 

Bootleggers profiting off of the original and not-so-original work of console enthusiast hombrewers and hackers is far more damaging to our community and game players in general than it is to the bottomline of corporations. Even if anyone's personal morality is so one dimensional that it aligns with laws or absolutes, it's not a matter of sympathizing or not with homebrewers/hackers. You will personally experience the void of projects that these people will no longer bust their asses over. The bootlegs of commercial games also makes it riskier for fans to work on hacks/translations or potentially do an at-cost pressing of something like the Golden Axe remake.


I can't really get into what my initial reaction was to this "Turbo" set, but it's seems to go against the whole point of previous bootlegs giving you 'the closest thing to the experience of having a complete copy of a "rarer" game'. I think that the real reason this set comes with custom covers is because he couldn't be bothered to spend any of the $10,000+ net profit from the first PCE Works set to actually buy original copies of the games (even to just resell them afterward) and he just downloaded some isos instead.

Considering that these don't have the novelty of even being reproductions and the custom Godzilla is still inferior to the PCE version and Bonk 3 is still inferior to the HuCards/roms, they should at least be sold individually for $20 - $30 tops.

[Gentlegamer]

I'm fairly "libertarian" when it comes to "intellectual propery," so I don't have a big issue with unauthorized reproductions, but I do share the concern with the profiting off the bedroom/hacker community. Like CrackTiger says, everyone will experience the void of projects when they are seen as slaving away for free for some high profit bootlegger instead of contributing to the community.

I'd rather spend money on original work like Atlantean or Pier Solar (Genesis).

[NecroPhile]

Yarr, I think Megaman is the only thing that really sticks in people's craw about Tobias; people would give a lot fewer fucks if he'd stuck to commercial games only.

[esteban]

Yarr, I think Megaman is the only thing that really sticks in people's craw about Tobias; people would give a lot fewer fucks if he'd stuck to commercial games only.

Exactly.




HAILING:
Yes, we have a thread (or two) here where Bonknuts expressed his "frustration" with Tobias.

The thread was created when Tobias announced PCE MegaMan was a available for sale, I reckon.

[sniper]

I ordered a set, can't wait to get it I don't own any of the four games, but all four were on my "if I ever win the lottery" list.

I did ask him how he wasn't getting sued, and he told me that NEC's own rights to release games on the platform are expired; why would they bother suing him for re-releasing games to a platform they can't even legally release them on?

That was his explanation anyway.

[TurboXray]

We should request Magical Chase.

Hacking a 4mb huey to fit within super cd ram limits is likely beyond his abilities, but that would be a nice one.  My dream would be to have both versions playable, selectable music between the original chippy tunes and the redbook ones from the sound track disc, and a small gallery showing side by side comparisons of the differences.  A robot can dream, right?

It's 4megabit? Probably pretty doable on SCD (with load times for stages). If anything, it can be hacked for the arcade card format fairly easily (most hucards can be). I started doing this type of stuff, but stopped when the Everdrive card came out. I figured no one would care at that point. Flashcard > CD-Rs for most gamers.

[TurboXray]

I love what Tobias is doing here, sorry Steve, and I wish more people would do something similar.  But the reason they don't is it's not profitable.  There used to be a company called TimeWalk games that made complete wth maps, top notch repros for Nes and SNES games.  Stuff like Earthbound Zero and Seiken Densetsu 3 in full English form.  No, you weren't paying for the Roms, those were  stolen from someone who hacked and stole them from the company who owns the rights to them.  You were paying for the quality and experience of playing a brand new 8 or 16-bit game again, which to a lot of people is priceless.  And even at about $70 a pop, these guys weren't quitting their dayjobs, and eventually went out of business, as I knew they would.  But I much rather pay $35 for a brand new, high quality repro of Dynastic Hero, than pay $800 for someone's 14th hand copy with Dorito fingerprints all over it. 

I knew when I bought the Sapphire he made years ago, it wasn't some secret stash Hudson put in a time vault. I'm not that stupid, I knew it was a repro, and he should have said as much, it was pointless to try to mislead people, and most of us would have bought it anyway. Same thing wth Rockman, that was shitty.  So I respect him now for branding the repros he does appropriately and making them easily distinguishable from the originals so people know.  And I encourage more of this because the gaming market has grown disgusting with people that are more concerned with collecting games for bragging rights than ever actually playing them.

Permission would be a great starting point for most repro setups. Just because you won't get permission from the original makers of the game (big companies), doesn't mean you shouldn't obtain permission from everyone involved in the hack/translation/whatever. One doesn't negate the other. I'm not totally against a community pressing or such, but asking first is key. I can't give permission on behalf of Capcom stuffs, but I can for my own.

 I never intended to profit from this anyway, so why should I care? I care because what's supposed to be free, is being profited on. I, like so many others, could sure use the money. If I had known someone else was gonna take my stuff, for the community, and profit from it - then I wouldn't have made it in the first place (or kept it private among friends). In my case, it did have an effect. I now think about what I rather put my time into (something I can fully control or hack/translate? Why risk my time). In the end, it had the effect of Megaman 2 not appearing on PCE SCD (I kept it in hucard format). And my work on Megaman 3 for SCD as a trilogy set (on CD). That also has been canned. I have Dragon Warrior on SCD as well, that's not released. Castlevania with upgraded CD sound track too, for SCD: not publicly released. A lot of the NES2PCE projects (now kept in beta form), could have been refined and released as CD projects with CD audio upgrades - not going to happen. Not a whole lot of people care, because most prefer the originals and already play them on the original console anyway. But yeah, it did have an effect. It made me question if I should do any more translation stuff on the PCE. If that doesn't bother you, then more power to you.. I guess.

[HailingTheThings]

HAILING:
Yes, we have a thread (or two) here where Bonknuts expressed his "frustration" with Tobias.

The thread was created when Tobias announced PCE MegaMan was a available for sale, I reckon.

I'm aware of his frustration in threads, I meant had he messaged him personally.

I never intended to profit from this anyway, so why should I care? I care because what's supposed to be free, is being profited on. I, like so many others, could sure use the money.

Have you considered talking to Tobias if you haven't done so already?

[Nemo]

I love what Tobias is doing here, sorry Steve, and I wish more people would do something similar.  But the reason they don't is it's not profitable.  There used to be a company called TimeWalk games that made complete wth maps, top notch repros for Nes and SNES games.  Stuff like Earthbound Zero and Seiken Densetsu 3 in full English form.  No, you weren't paying for the Roms, those were  stolen from someone who hacked and stole them from the company who owns the rights to them.  You were paying for the quality and experience of playing a brand new 8 or 16-bit game again, which to a lot of people is priceless.  And even at about $70 a pop, these guys weren't quitting their dayjobs, and eventually went out of business, as I knew they would.  But I much rather pay $35 for a brand new, high quality repro of Dynastic Hero, than pay $800 for someone's 14th hand copy with Dorito fingerprints all over it. 

I knew when I bought the Sapphire he made years ago, it wasn't some secret stash Hudson put in a time vault. I'm not that stupid, I knew it was a repro, and he should have said as much, it was pointless to try to mislead people, and most of us would have bought it anyway. Same thing wth Rockman, that was shitty.  So I respect him now for branding the repros he does appropriately and making them easily distinguishable from the originals so people know.  And I encourage more of this because the gaming market has grown disgusting with people that are more concerned with collecting games for bragging rights than ever actually playing them.

Permission would be a great starting point for most repro setups. Just because you won't get permission from the original makers of the game (big companies), doesn't mean you shouldn't obtain permission from everyone involved in the hack/translation/whatever. One doesn't negate the other. I'm not totally against a community pressing or such, but asking first is key. I can't give permission on behalf of Capcom stuffs, but I can for my own.

 I never intended to profit from this anyway, so why should I care? I care because what's supposed to be free, is being profited on. I, like so many others, could sure use the money. If I had known someone else was gonna take my stuff, for the community, and profit from it - then I wouldn't have made it in the first place (or kept it private among friends). In my case, it did have an effect. I now think about what I rather put my time into (something I can fully control or hack/translate? Why risk my time). In the end, it had the effect of Megaman 2 not appearing on PCE SCD (I kept it in hucard format). And my work on Megaman 3 for SCD as a trilogy set (on CD). That also has been canned. I have Dragon Warrior on SCD as well, that's not released. Castlevania with upgraded CD sound track too, for SCD: not publicly released. A lot of the NES2PCE projects (now kept in beta form), could have been refined and released as CD projects with CD audio upgrades - not going to happen. Not a whole lot of people care, because most prefer the originals and already play them on the original console anyway. But yeah, it did have an effect. It made me question if I should do any more translation stuff on the PCE. If that doesn't bother you, then more power to you.. I guess.

Totally, I agreed the whole Rockman situation was shitty, not only selling your work, but claiming it was an authentic release to the ignorant.  I feel like you did that out of fan love and expected nothing monetary in return for your efforts so I feel he should give you a cut or have asked for permission first, but did you ask permission from Capcom at any point to tinker with their games and distribute it?  If you didn't, Im not criticizing, my point is there are a ton of people doing stuff with older games they don't have any rights to, some taking away monetary gains and some not, it's their choice.  And as Turbo lovers, collectors, nostalgists, however you identify yourself, we as the consumers of the media, we make choices too. And I like having options for what I want to support and not to, and at the end of the day if no one in the community supported Tobias, he would be left with a bunch of unsold plastic. 

So we all have to make a choice what we are comfortable with. Looking back a decade ago, I used to be a real douche nozzle about any kind of piracy, felt like anyone who "stole" games in any form were a detriment to us "real" gamers.  This was back when the "rere" games were actually affordable to a normal person, I was a poor college student at the time and chose to save my expendable income for the Drac Xes and Sylphias.  But the climate is constantly changing, and the douche nozzles now are the ones we complain about on this forum gouging people on Ebay for games some of us will never be able to truly experience because other douche nozzles decided they got tired of collecting stamps and baseball cards, and video games would be a cool thing to keep in plastic cases. 

I don't like playing Turbo games on my computer, I like opening up their case with mostly laughable cover art and putting the Hu-card or game disc in my Turbo Duo, and breathing in 2 8-bit processors.  That's me.

[Nemo]

Double posted 

[NightWolve]

I knew when I bought the Sapphire he made years ago, it wasn't some secret stash Hudson put in a time vault. I'm not that stupid, I knew it was a repro, and he should have said as much, it was pointless to try to mislead people, and most of us would have bought it anyway. Same thing wth Rockman, that was shitty.  So I respect him now for branding the repros he does appropriately and making them easily distinguishable from the originals so people know.  And I encourage more of this because the gaming market has grown disgusting with people that are more concerned with collecting games for bragging rights than ever actually playing them.

Permission would be a great starting point for most repro setups. Just because you won't get permission from the original makers of the game (big companies), doesn't mean you shouldn't obtain permission from everyone involved in the hack/translation/whatever. One doesn't negate the other. I'm not totally against a  on the original console anyway. But yeah, it did have an effect. It made me question if I should do any more translation stuff on the PCE. If that doesn't bother you, then more power to you.. I guess.

Totally, I agreed the whole Rockman situation was shitty, not only selling your work, but claiming it was an authentic release to the ignorant.  I feel like you did that out of fan love and expected nothing monetary in return for your efforts so I feel he should give you a cut or have asked for permission first, but did you ask permission from Capcom at any point to tinker with their games and distribute it?

The difference though is as Bonknuts/TurboXray indicated, you likely won't get permission and nor could you afford it as an individual if you did if it goes for $5k-10k+, not unless you managed to say pull something off with Kickstarter. Bonknuts was reachable for permission, Capcom likely not. By Tobias avoiding both Capcom and Bonknuts, it gives the appearance he just didn't wanna split profits. Technically, you need to get 2 licenses (official forms of permission), both from Capcom, the developer/publisher, and NEC, the console manufacturer, if you wanna do things by the book and again, that's far less possible considering what you're gonna have to pay.

I would guess Tobias was more afraid of Bonknuts agreeing to a royalty split or flat fee as opposed to yelling at him in response to seeking permission, giving him the ole anti-profit, fan-credo lecture about how he did it all for the love of the game and profiting should have no part in it, etc. Either Tobias didn't wanna get yelled at or he didn't wanna have to agree to split profits. I dunno where his response was reported but he instead simply claimed that he didn't know where the Megaman hackulation came from which is bullshit, especially from a shady guy known to say bullshit like he did when it came to his first batch of Sapphires claiming they were some lost stash, trying to pass them off as authentic. We recently had a sucker that paid $600 for one that the seller either lied about or thought was authentic, so his actions have still had an effect...

Your rhetorical question to Bonknuts is simply a reminder that neither he, nor anybody else, has *legal* rights in these situations. We all know that though. This is about respecting wishes, ethics, doing things the right way, etc. Tobias could've at least contacted the reachable parties here, and Bonknuts versus Capcom/NEC, is far more reachable as a general fan that hangs out on PCE related forums, Facebook, his own PCE related blog, etc. Simple Google searches will yield contact info if one desires.

I went through this *big time* with the criminal fan translator that I used to work with on Ys games, Jeff Nussbaum (AKA DeuceBag) and a new company that came on the scene, XSEED Games... Ethically they cheated me for my work hours as a fan, but they also actually violated my IP Rights when it came to a 100% legal piece of unique translation software that I developed to manage translating scripts! I never licensed it to my translator for commercial purposes, neither verbally or in a license file, for him to get to sneak around and use it one last time to export translated results over to XSEED, get paid 100%, get credited 100%, but because it was on his computer having got there under fan circumstances, and because the other translator inside XSEED hated me (Tom-chan "WyrdWad" Lipschultz), they did whatever the hell they wanted and said f--k you to me!!!! Jeff never directly spoke to me again after pretending to be a friend across 8 years. He just sat there playing stupid, the monster that he is and that I never fully realized...

It's the sneaking around, the secrecy, doing it behind someone's back that's disgusting... Two other translators I worked with in the past made CD-Rs of Xak III and Ys IV, put them up on eBay. In the case of Ys IV, it was the main translator that I worked with, Shimarisu. If she had notified me, I likely would've just waived any sort of split, but it's the fact that somebody else using eBay caught the action, and reported it to me that bugged me the most. Xak III was being done by a friend who had nothing to do with the project, so that made us enemies for a while too... Anyway, none of that compares to Jeff and XSEED. That's pretty much one of the worst things that ever happened to me.

OK, so the point with Tobias is that his actions earned criticism and to know who you're buying from... You can talk about how you have no legal rights anyway, you didn't get permission either, etc., but all that does not block criticism when it comes to ethics and so forth like what I've seen in this thread - e.g. the earlier suggestion that either the fans who produced the translations or hacks make discs and sell them themselves, or don't release the work publicly at all, one or the other, suggesting to shut up and not complain that something you released up on the Internet for free can and will be used to somebody else's profit, etc. Not exactly a convincing argument in my book... If positive things can be said about such actions, so too can negative things. Deal with it.

In full disclosure, even in saying all this, I'm actually interested in Tobias' Dungeon Explorer II discs and might buy one if the price is right next year when they're sold separately. Can't say for sure, it'll depend on his pricing which usually sucks since he acts like he paid license fees to Capcom and NEC, which he did not, and neither did he spend a single work hour in creating said games, etc. Bootlegs are supposed to be cheap for poor-to-middle class people, and given that the bootlegger escaped thousands of dollars in license fees, that's the principle. Anyhow, yeah, he's a prick and I'd hate that he'd get my business, but oh well. I'll still call him out for his past as you can see.

[Nemo]

I think we're all pretty much saying the same thing here, everyone hates someone for something.      People take advantage of other people's work everyday, so at the end of the day, you have to do what you can to protect what you create or someone will surely come along at some point and use it for their own advantage. If Tobi gets sued to hell, that's on him, he took that risk. Were all sinners calling out other sinners, just strive to not be a hypocrite.  From a gamer standpoint, were not talking about buying DVDs or CDs that are still in stores and retail for $10-$20, and I'm being a cheap prick and I only want to pay 2 for $5 to the local bootlegger. Were talking about 25+ year old games games that sell for $500 to $1000 on Ebay because x amount of copies are in existence and y amount of people would actually like to enjoy them without forgoing their mortgage.

Anyways, on the topic of Xak III and Ys IV English versions in a nice package, that would surely be something I would buy.   

[ClodBusted]

I ordered a set, can't wait to get it I don't own any of the four games, but all four were on my "if I ever win the lottery" list.

I did ask him how he wasn't getting sued, and he told me that NEC's own rights to release games on the platform are expired; why would they bother suing him for re-releasing games to a platform they can't even legally release them on?

That was his explanation anyway.

Thanks for contacting Tobias. Although I don't believe him for contacting NEC. Considering there are many PCE and Turbo games available for purchase on Nintendo's Virtual console service, there isn't a case of expired rights.

Well, that's what I believe.

[NightWolve]

I ordered a set, can't wait to get it I don't own any of the four games, but all four were on my "if I ever win the lottery" list.

I did ask him how he wasn't getting sued, and he told me that NEC's own rights to release games on the platform are expired; why would they bother suing him for re-releasing games to a platform they can't even legally release them on ?

That was his explanation anyway.

Thanks for contacting Tobias. Although I don't believe him for contacting NEC. Considering there are many PCE and Turbo games available for purchase on Nintendo's Virtual console service, there isn't a case of expired rights.

Well, that's what I believe.

He was misdirecting in that response, acting like NEC was the only party he'd have to contact here. The publisher is the one that gets a full 75+ years of IP protection. Anyway, he won't get sued because the pirate networks that spread content for free by the millions is far more damaging than a guy that sells a few hundred pressed discs. That thinking is based on the idea of jealously and him making money.

When I was in Athens, Greece, everywhere you walked around, there was a bootlegger selling DVD-Rs of the latest movies for one to two euros. Is that guy on the street your threat as a company or friggin' The Pirate Pay where he downloaded it and spreads the movie by the millions daily ? Who is the higher priority ?? Companies are pretty much helpless or don't care anymore, don't think little targets here or there are worth the trouble.

[esteban]

I am sorry, but it really is simple:

(1) what Tobias did was FAR MORE DAMAGING to our tiny PCE hacker/homebrew community than many of you folks are willing to admit.

Bonknuts and CrackTiger both spoke plainly and honestly: 

(2) Tobias, single-handedly, in one fell swoop, stopped/curtailed several current (and future) PCE projects that I (for one) was really looking forward to.

(3) The PRIMARY FORCE that motivates fan hacks/homebrew is enthusiasm.

(4) Tobias killed that enthusiasm. Even worse, he killed this enthusiasm in THE SMALL GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE TALENTED/SKILLED ENOUGH to actually create something for the PCE community.

(5) Ultimately, Tobias' actions inflicted immediate and long-term damage to the very heart of the PCE community—the folks who are actively working on this ancient platform.

It really is that simple. And tragic. It doesn't take much to destroy enthusiasm. It takes a HELL OF A LOT to repair the damage. Often, you can't even repair it.

(7) I am sorry I had to point out the obvious to everyone who is SO DAMN HAPPY TO BUY NICE PIECES OF PLASTIC AND PAPER. For the record, I am conflicted about this issue: I think Tobias creates a professional product, I love the idea of pressed discs...but I don't want to support him for reasons stated above. Life would be much easier without ethics. Tobias presents us with a painful dilemma: he is offering something many of us want....but he also hurt the community irreparably. He is both our savior and our destroyer. He is both. Acknowledge that, at least.

( 8 ) I still love you all. But DAMN, just be honest about this. Stop rationalizing. Stop trying to justify it.

[NecroPhile]

It's 4megabit? Probably pretty doable on SCD (with load times for stages). If anything, it can be hacked for the arcade card format fairly easily (most hucards can be).

Doable by someone like you with skillz, not Tobias.

If I had known someone else was gonna take my stuff, for the community, and profit from it - then I wouldn't have made it in the first place (or kept it private among friends).

That's sam's thoughts as well, but realistically it's inevitable that someone will eventually pull something shitty.  If you have 99 grateful, supportive people enjoying the fruits of your labor and 1 being a douche, you really shouldn't dwell on the 1; that's not to say you guys shouldn't care at all (it'd piss me right the fuck off too), but recognize that the vast majority of people are doing things the right way.  Don't let one bad apple spoil the bushel!

... did you ask permission from Capcom at any point to tinker with their games and distribute it?.....We're all sinners calling out other sinners, just strive to not be a hypocrite.

If you don't see the difference between Tom (a fan currently doing stuff in his free time for fun) and a faceless corporation that has nothing to lose and hasn't had anything to do with the PCE in decades, you might ride the short bus.  Pro tip: ethics and legality are not synonyms.

[CrackTiger]

I think we're all pretty much saying the same thing here, everyone hates someone for something.      People take advantage of other people's work everyday, so at the end of the day, you have to do what you can to protect what you create or someone will surely come along at some point and use it for their own advantage. If Tobi gets sued to hell, that's on him, he took that risk. Were all sinners calling out other sinners, just strive to not be a hypocrite.  From a gamer standpoint, were not talking about buying DVDs or CDs that are still in stores and retail for $10-$20, and I'm being a cheap prick and I only want to pay 2 for $5 to the local bootlegger. Were talking about 25+ year old games games that sell for $500 to $1000 on Ebay because x amount of copies are in existence and y amount of people would actually like to enjoy them without forgoing their mortgage.

Anyways, on the topic of Xak III and Ys IV English versions in a nice package, that would surely be something I would buy.   

The person who organized and worked on the dub for Ys IV and worked on the English translation of Drac X had said many times that if anyone does a pressing for either or even contacts the various rights holders about licensing out an official pressing, that they will never do another PCE project.

The PCE Works/everanime/misc guy sold the bootlegs of Sapphire for "mortgage" prices for a long time and told many different lies about their authenticity. He sold his Space Fantasy Zone cdrs for something like $150 - $200 each. The first forum member to eventually bite the bullet and buy one to let us know what you get for that kind of money, only did so after he finally managed to haggle the price down to only $100.

[TurboXray]

(Wall of text)

I didn't want make this into a debate about ethics, legality, and everything in between. I just wanted to provide a point of view from the other side, regardless of what's right or wrong and what's technically legal or not. Basically, the effect it can have on the homebrew/hacker/coder/whatever. I did contact Tobias. He explained that he purchased it as a prototype from Japan Yahoo actions. And I did see the auction (there were two, one went for $1500 IIRC). Basically, there was no legal recourse I could take. He offered me (either money or copies) in return, but I declined. Sure, I'm providing the rom/game on my site (even if altered) and in that respect contributing to the supposed loss Capcom endures from pirates roms (measure that how ever you will), but I can't in good conscience take money for this. My work, although my own, cannot be separated from the game itself. Technically, I could probably sell the 'patch' (you dump your own cart), but that's not the same thing nor desirable as owning a professional package or pressed CD. I didn't expect him to not sure what he already put money up for (cost of production, cost to have the manual/covers/art developed), but I did expect him not to publish any more (or any of my other stuff). To this day, he has not AFAIK. I did request something in return from him; that since he profited from community work  - he should give back to the community; I asked that he make the covers and manuals free to download for the community. I never got a reply back, and he never did this. So there's your story (to the best of my memory).

 I've said this before and I'll say it again, I don't hold any grudges for any gamer that purchased the copy of MM. I understand the desire to have package game like that VS just some CD-R (although his turned out to be just CD-Rs in the end anyway). I understand that many gamers tend to look at this as a 'service' to the retro gaming community. That's debatable. I'm also not against doing a community pressing either (something non-for-profit). I do understand that some will attempt to resell it for more or whatever. I'm not concerned with that; you do what you want with your own property. If it got to the point of that getting out of hand, then I simply wouldn't do/allow anymore. If I work on a joint project with someone though, I can't speak for them.

 Anyway, stepping outside of all of this - I find it this discussion/debate about providing services VS amount of profit involved.. fascinating. Nothing is ever black and white. A what point does making too much profit negate the protecting status of 'just providing services to the community'. I definitely don't have a clear answer, to where that point should fall.

(sorry in advance for any grammar mistakes; wrote this right before class)

[sniper]

I have no ethical qualms with what Tobias is doing; no one was stopping others from bringing a similar product to market.

I run a blog, and if someone decided to copy the entirety of it and publish it in book form for profit, I wouldn't be butt hurt; I'd be proud that my stuff was out there for an expanded audience, even if I personally never saw a dime from it.

[TurboXray]

I have no ethical qualms with what Tobias is doing; no one was stopping others from bringing a similar product to market.

I run a blog, and if someone decided to copy the entirety of it and publish it in book form for profit, I wouldn't be butt hurt; I'd be proud that my stuff was out there for an expanded audience, even if I personally never saw a dime from it.

So, since your content was free - then it doesn't matter that someone else profited from your work or took control of it (in a manner of speaking)? What if your content was paid-to-view or such type of revenue generating service? What if the content was altered by said publisher, in a way that you didn't like? Would those circumstances change your opinion?

[CrackTiger]

I have no ethical qualms with what Tobias is doing; no one was stopping others from bringing a similar product to market.

I run a blog, and if someone decided to copy the entirety of it and publish it in book form for profit, I wouldn't be butt hurt; I'd be proud that my stuff was out there for an expanded audience, even if I personally never saw a dime from it.

Holy crap. Nightwolf not being happy with his Ys translation work being sold to a publisher without his permission, Burnt Lasagna not wanting translated projects he worked on to be sold, Arkhan not thanking Roy for flipping pre-release cdr copies for hundreds of dollars, Tomatheous's hindsight of the NES to PCE project after Rockman is sold for proft, etc.

Everyone's real problem is just that their "butthurt" when really they should be grateful.

[NecroPhile]

I have no ethical qualms with what Tobias is doing; no one was stopping others from bringing a similar product to market.

I run a blog, and if someone decided to copy the entirety of it and publish it in book form for profit, I wouldn't be butt hurt; I'd be proud that my stuff was out there for an expanded audience, even if I personally never saw a dime from it.

Go fuck yourself.

[sniper]

Everyone's real problem is just that their "butthurt" when really they should be grateful.

Go fuck yourself

Hah, you guys are too emotional-- can you think logically for five seconds?

Instead of sitting here complaining, why don't you go make your own release, and undercut Tobias on price if you can?

I think he's offering a valuable service and product. I'm more than happy to part with my money at the price he's asking. If you can provide a better product, then I'll be more than happy to buy yours instead.

[OldMan]

Instead of sitting here complaining, why don't you go make your own release, and undercut Tobias on price if you can?

Because we have ethics. Two wrongs do not make a right.

(Three rights make a left, though )

[jlued686]

I think you've completely missed the point, man. By...a mile.

Nobody seems to be upset with what Tobias is currently offering. What they are upset about is taking their work, completely misrepresenting it, and selling it for a profit.

[ClodBusted]

Go fuck yourself.

When NecroPhile once told me to do that, I was bitching around at first. But eventually I took my lesson and learned from my mistake.

He wasn't even moderating back then.

[esteban]

I have no ethical qualms with what Tobias is doing; no one was stopping others from bringing a similar product to market.

I run a blog, and if someone decided to copy the entirety of it and publish it in book form for profit, I wouldn't be butt hurt; I'd be proud that my stuff was out there for an expanded audience, even if I personally never saw a dime from it.

Go fuck yourself, again.

[sniper]

What they are upset about is taking their work, completely misrepresenting it, and selling it for a profit.

No no, I get that! But translating some obscure, thirty year old Japanese video game doesn't entitle you to anything, least of all the back of some moral high horse.

If you want to make money, go offer a product or service whereby people are willing to part with their hard-earned money. Don't get angry at someone else for offering value where you either won't or can't. That's called envy.

[NecroPhile]

No no, I get that! But translating some obscure, thirty year old Japanese video game doesn't entitle you to anything, least of all the back of some moral high horse.

If you want to make money, go offer a product or service whereby people are willing to part with their hard-earned money. Don't get angry at someone else for offering value where you either won't or can't. That's called envy.

You're obviously a moron.

The only thing of true value that tobias is offering is the content on the disc, which wouldn't exist without people like Tom.  Don't try to say I'm wrong, as we all know you wouldn't pay more than a couple bucks if it was just the case, manual, and a blank disc.

[esteban]

What they are upset about is taking their work, completely misrepresenting it, and selling it for a profit.

No no, I get that! But translating some obscure, thirty year old Japanese video game doesn't entitle you to anything, least of all the back of some moral high horse.

If you want to make money, go offer a product or service whereby people are willing to part with their hard-earned money. Don't get angry at someone else for offering value where you either won't or can't. That's called envy.

I thought only the profiteer could kill the enthusiasm of the PCE hack/homebrew community.

I was wrong.

Troglodytes like you also kill it.

I hope, however, that one day you will develop the capacity to understand this issue. This issue cannot be reduced to economic principles and market dynamics.

Read this:

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=18032.msg383946#msg383946

And provide a thoughtful, considered response. I eagerly await your contribution to the discussion. Thank you.

[sniper]

I hope, however, that one day you will develop the capacity to understand this issue.

Hah, no arrogance here! Oh yes, I bow before you oh enlightened one...

Troglodytes like you also kill it.

...one so enlightened you resort to ad hominem attacks to make your point.  Obviously you have no substantive argument other than raw emotion.

So who is the enlightened one?