Daimakaimura (Ghouls n Ghosts) Question

[Izod1337]

I was wondering how this version of Daimakaimura fares up to the Genesis/Mega Drive version of this game. Is it the preferred port to anyone or do you believe the Sega version is superior?

Also this is a Super Grafx game, correct? Is it compatible with the Duo R/RX?

[Joe Redifer]

It doesn't play as well as the Genesis version I don't feel. The Genesis trumps the other versions because Arthur doesn't come to a dead stop if you inadvertently press a diagonal direction. This makes the SuperGrafx (and even the arcade) version have much stiffer control than the Genesis version. However you can still turn them off in the Genesis version if you prefer controls that are shittier. There are many details in the background of the SuperGrafx version that aren't in the Genesis version since it was a much later release and also had more memory. Many of the colors seem off, though. They also botched up the scrolling layers of the first part of stage 3. It doesn't effect gameplay, but it's just wrong. The SuperGrafx sound and music are nowhere near as good as the Genesis version.

It won't work with the Duo because the Duo is not a SuperGrafx.

[Izod1337]

Thank you for your thoughts. It sucks that the PCE versions are sub par compared to the Genesis version as I'm love the early GnG entries. But I'd rather not experience a bad version of the game if I can play it on the Genesis.

[Digi.k]

Thank you for your thoughts. It sucks that the PCE versions are sub par compared to the Genesis version as I'm love the early GnG entries. But I'd rather not experience a bad version of the game if I can play it on the Genesis.

I know this is kinda subjective but you are experiencing a bad version of the game since the Genesis is the worst version in terms of looks.  Sonically it's one of the best tho.

supergrafx playthu

and other version comparisons

[elmer]

You might wait for a few more opinions.

The SuperGrafx follows the arcade controls ... Joe obviously doesn't like that, but it's hardly a "wrong" choice for the developers to make ... although playing the game with a joystick would give a better feel.

[ToyMachine78]

Well be specific... Isn't SFX version the more faithful versio graphically?

I agree the Genesis version is the best as far as playability.

Not sure about music. The SNES version sounds pretty good.

[Izod1337]

Thank you for your thoughts. It sucks that the PCE versions are sub par compared to the Genesis version as I'm love the early GnG entries. But I'd rather not experience a bad version of the game if I can play it on the Genesis.

I know this is kinda subjective but you are experiencing a bad version of the game since the Genesis is the worst version in terms of looks.  Sonically it's one of the best tho.

I get what you mean but as you said it is subjective. The Genesis version appears to be alright and the gameplay is still going for it. The Super Grafx version though looks closest to the arcade version as it gets.

You might wait for a few more opinions.

The SuperGrafx follows the arcade controls ... Joe obviously doesn't like that, but it's hardly a "wrong" choice for the developers to make ... although playing the game with a joystick would give a better feel.

You're right about waiting for a few more opinions on the matter. The Super Grafx version seems like a nice port to me. I'll probably end up getting it in the future and judge it myself. And what do the arcade controls feel like?

Well be specific... Isn't SFX version the more faithful versio graphically?

I agree the Genesis version is the best as far as playability.

Not sure about music. The SNES version sounds pretty good.

To be fair, Cho Makaimura is more of it's own game since it was made specifically for the SNES so it takes advantage of everything it has going for it.

[SignOfZeta]

I almost never say this, I promise, but you should just play it in MAME. It's not like any version is all that great so you might as well have the original. Blowing $200 on this an an SGX is not the best use of one's classic gaming money. You could probably get the PCB for that.

The Capcom Generations version is pretty good too.

[Izod1337]

I almost never say this, I promise, but you should just play it in MAME. It's not like any version is all that great so you might as well have the original. Blowing $200 on this an an SGX is not the best use of one's classic gaming money. You could probably get the PCB for that.

The Capcom Generations version is pretty good too.

I'll take a look at the MAME version, thank you! But damn, $200! Last I checked on eBay it was way less than that. I've just checked out the Saturn version of Capcom Generations and the games look great. Thanks for the recommendation.

[elmer]

I almost never say this, I promise, but you should just play it in MAME.

Or buy an X68000! 

And what do the arcade controls feel like?

I can't remember ... but if Joe's complaint is about the player coming to a stop when a diagonal is pressed (which would never happen in the arcade because of a little plastic mask in the joystick) ... then that should be fixable on the SuperGrafx with a small assembly patch for the Turbo Everdrive.

CrackTiger could probably fix up the color palettes with better choices if they were found, too.

[CrackTiger]

The SuperGrafx version doesn't do color nearly well enough by PCE standards, but it's much more faithful and generally better looking than the Genesis version. The Genesis version's player sprite is colored better, but not much else is. The SGX version has lots of animation that is missing from the Genesis version, more parallax and a lot more detail and variety in the backgrounds.

The sound is great and similar to the arcade. The Genesis version literally hurts my ears in many of the shreaking parts. I'm not a fan of the soundtrack or the game itself so much. I've played the Genesis version to death on my Nomad. It's the least cheap version difficulty-wise, with fewer unavoidable random spawning enemies. The SuperGrafx version plays like the arcade, so it's more difficult and has fewer or different checkpoints or something.

The SuperGrafx version is definitely superior overall and at least more or less equal in every way. But I've never thought much of Ghouls 'n Ghosts and find a lot of the designs ugly. I love Ghosts 'n Goblins though, whuch is what made Ghouls 'n Ghosts so disappointing when it came out for Genesis. I never knew it was an arcade game and to this day have never seen one. So it looked like a bad fan game or misguided unofficial offshoot.

awack's pics from tg-16.com:

SuperGrafx (SGX)	Mega Drive (MD, Genesis)

PC Engine Software Bible comparison:




awack's pics from pcengine.co.uk:



The matching Genesis comparison pic is no longer hosted online, but it has 4 frames for Arthur's running animation and none(?) of that bubble explosion and most of the lightning details are missing.

I had a video comparing the soundtracks of the SGX, MD and arcade/Saturn versions, but Sega killed my youtube channel and I can't find a copy on my backup hard drive. :/

[esteban]

Another resource for conspiring screenshots (the usual caveats apply):

https://www.tg-16.com/screenshot_comparisons_action.htm#Daimakaimura_MD

SuperGrafx (SGX)	Mega Drive (MD, Genesis)

[Joe Redifer]

I don't like the changed colors of the SuperGrafx version, especially since the SuperGrafx has 4096 colors to choose from (EGM printed this that's my source so it's true I counted each color myself). The artwork itself in the SG is obviously a lot more faithful. I also don't like how the trees blow in the SG version. Seems cheap. Would I like to have the SG version in my collection? Hell yeah I love Ghouls n' Ghosts, I want them all (already have Genesis and arcade PCB).

The Capcom Cassics Collection on XBOX is messed up, though. It's waaaay too dark. Avoid it. The Saturn seems pretty good but Arthur's feet don't go behind a few blades of grass like they do in the arcade, rendering the entire game unplayable.

SNES game is a sequel. Not the same game at all. It's OK but I prefer Ghouls n' Ghosts.

[poponon]

The Saturn seems pretty good but Arthur's feet don't go behind a few blades of grass like they do in the arcade, rendering the entire game unplayable.

lmao

really though, just burn a disc and play the saturn version. I think it's a straight port considering the saturns 28.6 MHz processor probably couldn't emulate the cps1 10 MHz 68000 . In that case though, it's the best port AND you get to play with the objectively best controller for 2d games.

[seieienbu]

This is an easy decision to make.  Get a rom of both.  Play both.  Decide which one you like better.  Then, either purchase the Genesis one for like $20, or spend around $300 to $400 total on a Supergrafx console and the game itself. 

Yeah, the Supergrafx is really cool, but it only has 5 games that are dedicated to the improvements the hardware offers.  You have to consider that price even if you like that version of the game more.

[elmer]

It doesn't play as well as the Genesis version I don't feel. The Genesis trumps the other versions because Arthur doesn't come to a dead stop if you inadvertently press a diagonal direction. This makes the SuperGrafx (and even the arcade) version have much stiffer control than the Genesis version.

Well, it takes a tiny 18-byte patch to make Daimakaimura behave the way that you want.

But I'm not going to tell you which 18 bytes because you failed to acknowledge the "obvious" superiority of the SuperGrafx in all areas of gaming!  Whether that's true or not, I choose to believe it anyway ... it's a religious thing.  And now I'm also going to have to send an Invisible Pink Unicorn around to your house to poop on your lawn! 

[CrackTiger]

CrackTiger could probably fix up the color palettes with better choices if they were found, too.

It's tough doing a color hack, where you can only change existing colors within existing sub-palettes. A port with assets as close to the arcade as Forgotten Worlds PCE does to its arcade original would look great, but here's a straight palette adjustment from one of the tougher sections of the SuperGrafx game to balance and make faithful:

[jeffhlewis]

Sharp x68000 + Roland MIDI Module is my go-to way to play this game...and it's amazing. But yeah, for the price of this setup (or even a SuperGrafx + Game) you can get the freaking arcade PCB. Or build a perfect MAME cabinet and emulate it. Just do that.

[poponon]

does nobody own a saturn????

[CrackTiger]

does nobody own a saturn????

You should know by now that most people here like 16-bit games and do not ignore half the library just because a technically superior version of a game is available on random consoles or through emulation.

The Saturn version is also not arcade perfect, if that's what someone is looking for. But why spend so much money on on the Saturn game and hardware when you can emulate the arcade for free?

[poponon]

does nobody own a saturn????

You should know by now that most people here like 16-bit games and do not ignore half the library just because a technically superior version of a game is available on random consoles or through emulation.

The Saturn version is also not arcade perfect, if that's what someone is looking for. But why spend so much money on on the Saturn game and hardware when you can emulate the arcade for free?

saturn version is the closest to the arcade to my knowledge. also burnt discs are pretty cheap. and software emulation is fine and all but you know you're not going to be getting the most accurate version of the game, as well as having to get into a bunch of other hardware if you want to run at native 15khz.

imo alot of the 2d saturn games feel very 16 bit gen. kind of like an upgraded snes. especially in daimakaimura's case it gameplay feel is more or less the same to it's 16 bit counterparts.

the art for the supergrafx and mega drive boxes are really cool though

[NecroPhile]

I don't have a Saturn nor do I want one, especially not for something like Ghouls and Ghosts.  The question is which is better between the Genesis and SGX versions (I prefer the graphics of the SGX by far), but if you're going to widen it to include all versions, why would anyone pic the Saturn version over the X68000 port or mame?

[elmer]

A port with assets as close to the arcade as Forgotten Worlds PCE does to its arcade original would look great, but here's a straight palette adjustment from one of the tougher sections of the SuperGrafx game to balance and make faithful:

Thanks ... I like your colors better! 

Sharp x68000 + Roland MIDI Module is my go-to way to play this game...and it's amazing.

does nobody own a saturn????

You should know by now that most people here like 16-bit games and do not ignore half the library just because a technically superior version of a game is available on random consoles or through emulation.

Yes, I own a Saturn ... but I agree with CrackTiger on this.

The joy of these old systems is the games, and the efforts that people went to to try to convert arcade games to the hardware that was available to the players that wanted to play at home ... at the time that the arcade games came out, and not a decade later.

saturn version is the closest to the arcade to my knowledge. also burnt discs are pretty cheap. and software emulation is fine and all but you know you're not going to be getting the most accurate version of the game, as well as having to get into a bunch of other hardware if you want to run at native 15khz.

Errr ... the arcade version is the "closest" to the arcade version. The game was many years old when it came out on the Saturn, and didn't exactly stress the hardware.

I see no problem with running the game in MAME, and I don't see much reason to run it on a 15KHz monitor, either.

Arcade games were designed to be played on RGB CRT monitors ... they're not specifically designed to take advantage of the pixel smearing that you get on an 15KHz NTSC TV when using a composite input.

I don't see anything wrong with running them on a 31KHz PC CRT.

Perhaps I'm missing something.

******************

If anyone wants to run the SuperGrafx Daimakaimura with Joe's "preferred" controls, where accidental diagonals on the joypad don't cause Arthur to stop, here's a PCEAS patch to accomlish that ...

    code
    bank $00
    org  $0000

    incbin "daimakaimura.sgx"

    bank $00
    org  $e62d

    jsr  $ffe0

    org  $ffe0

    sta  $2249,x
    bpl  L1
    bit  #$20
    bne  L2
L1: ora  #$50
    sta  $2249,x
L2: rts

[CrackTiger]

The Saturn version runs at a lower resolution, like most of its CPS1 & 2 ports. The Playstation version likely uses the correct or a closer resolution, just like most of its CPS1 & 2 ports.

The Saturn version is supposed to have one or two different bgms.

The Saturn version doesn't have Arthur walk behind the grass the way that only AirRaidX and a couple guys around LA noticed.

Regular people don't do modchip installs and modded Saturns aren't cheap. The original game is reasonably priced though.

There isn't an industry standard computer program that downgrades console ports consistently. The 8 & 16-bit ports of GnG are each unique experiences and should be played by everyone who appreciates the game.

[poponon]

Errr ... the arcade version is the "closest" to the arcade version. The game was many years old when it came out on the Saturn, and didn't exactly stress the hardware.

I see no problem with running the game in MAME, and I don't see much reason to run it on a 15KHz monitor, either.

Arcade games were designed to be played on RGB CRT monitors ... they're not specifically designed to take advantage of the pixel smearing that you get on an 15KHz NTSC TV when using a composite input.

I don't see anything wrong with running them on a 31KHz PC CRT.

I mean closest as in the look and gameplay . this is just my opinion tho. same with the monitor - i think it looks best on 15khz rgb imo. as long as your enjoying the game tho

[poponon]

I don't have a Saturn nor do I want one, especially not for something like Ghouls and Ghosts.  The question is which is better between the Genesis and SGX versions (I prefer the graphics of the SGX by far), but if you're going to widen it to include all versions, why would anyone pic the Saturn version over the X68000 port or mame?

x68000 is pretty cost prohibitive compared to saturn. I figured most people would have a saturn but i guess it's not that popular around here. you guys should really take another look at it - really awesome selection when you really start going through the library.

i think my main issue with x68000 or mame is mostly emotional/pavlovian  - not sure what it is but i prefer playing on a videogame console than pc. I am considering building a mamebox that outputs to an old crt though - just seems to take a little fun out of it for me. not sure why

[Joe Redifer]

The Saturn version runs at a lower resolution, like most of its CPS1 & 2 ports. The Playstation version likely uses the correct or a closer resolution, just like most of its CPS1 & 2 ports.

Why do you think the PS version offers a closer resolution to the arcade than the Saturn version? They likely share the same exact assets. The Saturn can to 320, 352, 640 and 704 pixels wide in progressive mode. PlayStation goes up to 640 wide. I'm not sure if it even offers a 352 mode. I can only find the 320x22 and 640x480 mode online for the PS1.

EDIT: I found this in regards to the Playstation, which would still put the Saturn version closer to the arcade's 384 dots wide if they used independent resolutions:
   +-------+--------------------+-------------------+
   |  Mode | Resolution (H x V) |       Scan        |
   +-------+--------------------+-------------------+
   |   0   |     256 x 240      |                   |
   |   1   |     320 x 240      |   Non-Interlaced  |
   |   2   |     512 x 240      |                   |
   |   3   |     640 x 240      |                   |
   +-------+--------------------+-------------------+
   |   4   |     256 x 480      |                   |
   |   5   |     320 x 480      |    Interlaced     |
   |   6   |     512 x 480      |                   |
   |   7   |     640 x 480      |                   |
   +-------+--------------------+-------------------+


Any why y'all forgetting about the BEST version which is for the Master System?

[esteban]

I don't have a Saturn nor do I want one, especially not for something like Ghouls and Ghosts.  The question is which is better between the Genesis and SGX versions (I prefer the graphics of the SGX by far), but if you're going to widen it to include all versions, why would anyone pic the Saturn version over the X68000 port or mame?

x68000 is pretty cost prohibitive compared to saturn. I figured most people would have a saturn but i guess it's not that popular around here. you guys should really take another look at it - really awesome selection when you really start going through the library.

i think my main issue with x68000 or mame is mostly emotional/pavlovian  - not sure what it is but i prefer playing on a videogame console than pc. I am considering building a mamebox that outputs to an old crt though - just seems to take a little fun out of it for me. not sure why

I have Saturn

But, needless to say, I love playing ports of games on all te consoles I own, even if they are not "the best"...I can't tell you how much fun it is to compare different versions.

[Joe Redifer]

Agreed! It's really fun to contrast and compare different versions. It's less fun when the game is the same on every platform.

[ccovell]

I can't find an accurate chart online, but that PSX one is wrong, I reckon.  The PlayStation can produce a couple more in-between resolutions, like 384 (or so) pixels across that make CPS1 games fit near-perfectly.

[poponon]

speaking of comparing versions, i just checked out the x68000 version with the midi module. looks and sounds amazing. I'd love to try out that version some day

[elmer]

speaking of comparing versions, i just checked out the x68000 version with the midi module. looks and sounds amazing. I'd love to try out that version some day

Not exactly surprising since the X68000 was the computer that Capcom used for developing the early CPS1 games, and that IIRC the CPS1 hardware was designed to be similar-to-the-X68000-but-with-even-more (same CPU, same resolution, same FM sound, more ADCPM channels, and more sprites IIRC).

But again, the thread was about the home-console versions, and I'm still putting my partisan preference on the SuperGrafx version over the Genesis version. 

Although in general, I just find it a frustratingly-hard quarter-muncher rather than actually "fun".

[SamIAm]

For those without the budget or the space for a real X68000, I'd just like to mention that emulation for this system has made real strides in the last few years. XM6i, which had a version update just last January, is doing quite well. It's a whole different world from when I first tried X68k emulation 10 years ago. If you're were turned off by flaky emulators before, I wholeheartedly suggest giving it another look.

[Joe Redifer]

speaking of comparing versions, i just checked out the x68000 version with the midi module. looks and sounds amazing. I'd love to try out that version some day

Ewww. I remember the MIDI sounding a lot better than that when I played the X68000 version.

EDIT: Just checked yeah my recordings from that game's sound test use similar but better instruments. And mine are in stereo.

[SuperDeadite]

The above video is emulated.  This game's MIDI is actually pure GM, not Roland GS.   Here's my old vid (100% real hardware), using my ancient Yamaha TG100 which sounds far better then the typical Roland SC-55 most people use.  (imo Roland is better for guitars, while Yamaha rules the orchestra)

I should really do a new recording with my MU2000, but X68000 captures are a real pain in the ass.

[Joe Redifer]

Yeah that music sounds pretty damn good. Sound effects are mixed a bit too hot though. And why is the video so dark? I feel like I'm watching the Classics Collection on the Xbox.

X68000 captures are easy. Just use XPC-4.

[seieienbu]

The above video is emulated.  This game's MIDI is actually pure GM, not Roland GS.   Here's my old vid (100% real hardware), using my ancient Yamaha TG100 which sounds far better then the typical Roland SC-55 most people use.  (imo Roland is better for guitars, while Yamaha rules the orchestra)

I should really do a new recording with my MU2000, but X68000 captures are a real pain in the ass.

The drums on your recording sound particularly fantastic.

[Joe Redifer]

Here's the recordings of the X68000 version of Ghouls 'n Ghosts that I personally made using real hardware (not even Goldstar or Sanyo or anything but an actual SHARP... WOW!). They sound nearly identical to SuperDeadite's video. These are MP3s (sorry) at 320kbps. Click -----> 69MB download (lost: joeredifer . com/crap/GhoulsX68000.zip). Enjoy.

[esteban]

Here's the recordings of the X68000 version of Ghouls 'n Ghosts that I personally made using real hardware (not even Goldstar or Sanyo or anything but an actual SHARP... WOW!). They sound nearly identical to SuperDeadite's video. These are MP3s (sorry) at 320kbps. Click -----> 69MB download (lost: joeredifer . com/crap/GhoulsX68000.zip). Enjoy.

Awesome

[TurboXray]

To the OP, if you have an SGX then this should be a no brainer. If cost is an issue, then Turbo ED.

 I'm not a big fan of Capcom's FM usage in their arcade games (too thin and steel-y). The Genesis version FM sounds much better than the arcade. But I like the charm of the PCE's audio chip in this game (as well as 1941) over the arcade original tunes. I never had an issue with the controls. Overall, the graphics do definitely have a better appeal to them over the Genesis version, but it's not like comparing the two Forgotten World ports.

 If you're looking for a PCE experience, get the SGX one. If you're just interested in the best port, then look else where.