PC Engine/TurboGrafx-16 Reproduction HuCards/Cases for Sale!

[mickcris]

It's hard to believe working HuCards are in production again like this... Wonder about the factory they found to get these made, what it took behind the scenes, impressive all the way!

Pretty sure they are from here
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=19848.0

Not sure how is making them though

[thesteve]

It's hard to believe working HuCards are in production again like this... Wonder about the factory they found to get these made, what it took behind the scenes, impressive all the way!

Pretty sure they are from here
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=19848.0

Not sure how is making them though 

i assure you they are not..............
i did the layout on them

[mickcris]

Cool.  They just look very similar.  In that thread turbokon had shown where he had some and was programming them.

[thesteve]

they may look similure, but they dont feel it
these dont use a plastic backing, and instead both sides are FR4 fiberglass material, making them extremely sturdy and cold to the touch

[NightWolve]

pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=19848

Ah right, turbokon started there, ordered some from that French guy, learned how to program them, and later teamed up with Jodi and Steve to do their own with full cases/manuals also.

So Steve, what factory did you find to produce the cards, like what ichigobankai found, this ponoko.com/ ?

[turbokon]

pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=19848

Ah right, turbokon started there, ordered some from that French guy, learned how to program them, and later teamed up with Jodi and Steve to do their own with full cases/manuals also.

So Steve, what factory did you find to produce the cards, like what ichigobankai found, this http://www.ponoko.com/ ?

Actually we were already working on this before stumbling across ichigobankai's post.  Thesteve already started on the layout before I saw ichigobanki post.  However having ichigobanki's cards on hand did helped on the programming aspect of it.

As thesteve already mentioned, ours used FR4 materials.  Ponoko just make simple cuts from plactics, mdf boards, leathers etc.

[NightWolve]

Ah, and "FR4 materials" ? (Nevermind, I looked FR4 up)

But are you fabricating these entirely at home or ? Where are you buying the material and what have you, and getting the design of the HuCard made is what I'm asking/wondering about, etc.

And how are you accomplishing that great printing/label/artwork on them as fans ? It's so original-looking/professional, maybe even better-looking! Or are you not wanting to share some of those details ?

[esteban]

Ah, and "FR4 materials" ? (Nevermind, I looked FR4 up)

But are you fabricating these entirely at home or ? Where are you buying the material and what have you, and getting the design of the HuCard made is what I'm asking/wondering about, etc.

And how are you accomplishing that great printing/label/artwork on them as fans ? It's so original-looking/professional, maybe even better-looking! Or are you not wanting to share some of those details ?

Trade secrets.

Hint: XXX XXX XXXXXXXXCC.

[NightWolve]

Here's an interesting idea: new, cheap, repro Arcade card... Any takers ?? Can it be done...? Well, inside sources reveal that the idea is currently being explored... That's not a 'yes', but that's not a 'no', it's a 'stay tuned'...

[OldMan]

... new, cheap, repro Arcade card

Yes it can probably be done. Would need a programmable chip (PGA/CPLD) to do the registers, and
extra RAM chips. The real question is if there is enough space on the board for everything...But you would have both sides to work on, so probably.

[Sapicco]

Are these available yet?   And, can you make cd games on the hu's?

[thesteve]

... new, cheap, repro Arcade card

Yes it can probably be done. Would need a programmable chip (PGA/CPLD) to do the registers, and
extra RAM chips. The real question is if there is enough space on the board for everything...But you would have both sides to work on, so probably.

well my thing is i havent done anything with programmable controllers
as far as space we have about 0.040 chip height to play with and are using TSOP now
also i have no info as of yet on how the pages are called

[OldMan]

...as far as space we have about 0.040 chip height to play with and are using TSOP now

Height isn't the problem; we know theres enough room underneath for Flash / Ram chips. (Rams are same height at Flash; Flash chip fit underneath, so there's no problem).
The problem is surface area; only about 1/2 of the top area is available for mounting chips. A large programmable chip might use all/most of that. You would have to find one with enough gates to duplicate the arcade card registers, and a small enough area to fit on the board.

I know only that programmable chips exist, and come in different gate counts. IIRC (and I may not), number of gates is proportional to surface area, so more gates == bigger area.

If you are serious, or just want to learn more about the chips, maybe you could contact Kevtris on the atari age forums; he's been doing cpu emulation via fpga's. Maybe he can help recommend one to use.

And somewhere around here (and in HuC files) is a description of the arcade card registers. Looking at that might give you an idea of what you would need, in terms of gates, etc.

I still think it's doable; I just don't have the in-depth knowledge it would take.

[CrackTiger]

A cheapArcade Card is out of the question, considering the price of these relatively simple straight-game HuCards already. But this physical format might be ideal for the kind of "super" Arcade Card that developers have been asking for. To make translations and various projects easier.

[Trenton_net]

A cheapArcade Card is out of the question, considering the price of these relatively simple straight-game HuCards already. But this physical format might be ideal for the kind of "super" Arcade Card that developers have been asking for. To make translations and various projects easier.

At the rate I see Arcade Card Pros going up in price, we may not even need super cheap repos. Just something cheaper than the stupid prices it goes for now. What boggles me even more, is that there are only a few legit games that work with it and only a small pool of users who would genuinely need one.

I'm sure if they had made the Arcade Card Pro incompatible with duo systems, the price wouldn't be nearly as high as it is now since it would eliminate all the people who buy it just for the "idea" that it's somehow tangibly better than a Duo card.

[farankoshan]

Cannot wait!! Please update when these go live!

[SplatterTrigger]

Thanks again guys!

[CrackTiger]

Do these come with repro manuals, or is that one you just already had?

[elmer]

...as far as space we have about 0.040 chip height to play with and are using TSOP now

Height isn't the problem; we know theres enough room underneath for Flash / Ram chips. (Rams are same height at Flash; Flash chip fit underneath, so there's no problem).
The problem is surface area; only about 1/2 of the top area is available for mounting chips. A large programmable chip might use all/most of that. You would have to find one with enough gates to duplicate the arcade card registers, and a small enough area to fit on the board.

I know only that programmable chips exist, and come in different gate counts. IIRC (and I may not), number of gates is proportional to surface area, so more gates == bigger area.

IMHO, you should only need a fairly simple FPGA/CPLD to do the Arcade Card ... your problem is more going to be in the number of I/O pins that you need, and the total number of individual IC chips ... trying to fit a CPLD, ROM, and 2 RAM chips into the space that you've got is going to be ... interesting.

As far as CPLD/FPGA/RAM choices, well you don't have that many anymore if you're talking about using 5V parts ... and if you're going to use 3.3V parts, then you're going to need to add level-shifters too, which is going to take up more space.

Is the Arcade Card Pro really that rare that it's worth going to all that trouble?

Give it 5-10 years and the whole PC Engine/CD/Arcade Card will all be emulated on FPGA hardware anyway.

A cheapArcade Card is out of the question, considering the price of these relatively simple straight-game HuCards already. But this physical format might be ideal for the kind of "super" Arcade Card that developers have been asking for. To make translations and various projects easier.

Errr ... don't we already have that "super" Arcade Card with the Turbo Everdrive 2?

It's got 4MB RAM, built-in SD card, and built-in USB (for a few dollars more).

I don't see that there's been a rush of new translations/homebrew that have been started since I released the patch that gives the TED2 512K of easily accessible RAM for the Super System Card (and you can access the whole 4MB if you actually follow the programming details that I posted).

[CrackTiger]

A cheapArcade Card is out of the question, considering the price of these relatively simple straight-game HuCards already. But this physical format might be ideal for the kind of "super" Arcade Card that developers have been asking for. To make translations and various projects easier.

At the rate I see Arcade Card Pros going up in price, we may not even need super cheap repos. Just something cheaper than the stupid prices it goes for now. What boggles me even more, is that there are only a few legit games that work with it and only a small pool of users who would genuinely need one.

I'm sure if they had made the Arcade Card Pro incompatible with duo systems, the price wouldn't be nearly as high as it is now since it would eliminate all the people who buy it just for the "idea" that it's somehow tangibly better than a Duo card.

The difference in price between the DUO and PRO is still less than that of a CD-ROM combo and a Duo system. You're already saving more money.

Errr ... don't we already have that "super" Arcade Card with the Turbo Everdrive 2?

It's got 4MB RAM, built-in SD card, and built-in USB (for a few dollars more).

I don't see that there's been a rush of new translations/homebrew that have been started since I released the patch that gives the TED2 512K of easily accessible RAM for the Super System Card (and you can access the whole 4MB if you actually follow the programming details that I posted).

Over the years, PC Engine homebrew developers and programmers have talked about the shortsightedness of the System 3 bios and how a new system card should include a new custom rom and misc under the hood that would make PCE projects in general much easier and might attract new hackers/developers to the PCE scene.

[OldMan]

IMHO, you should only need a fairly simple FPGA/CPLD to do the Arcade Card ... your problem is more going to be in the number of I/O pins that you need, and the total number of individual IC chips ... trying to fit a CPLD, ROM, and 2 RAM chips into the space that you've got is going to be ... interesting.

I agreee. But there's room for 2 memory chips (Ram or Rom) underneath the board; then you have the
whole top area for the FPGA/CPLD and a memory chip. Which actually might be doable. (Though I think you would need a multi-layer board to do it.)

Ss far as CPLD/FPGA/RAM choices, well you don't have that many anymore if you're talking about using 5V parts...

Always a problem with older systems, unfortunately.

Is the Arcade Card Pro really that rare that it's worth going to all that trouble?

Probably not. It's a Nice design problem, though.

Errr ... don't we already have that "super" Arcade Card with the Turbo Everdrive 2?

Not that I am aware of. Doesn't the arcade card have extra registers? (I'm pretty sure there is at least a shift register available.) Are those emulated on the TED 2?
Extra memory is nice, even if it's single-byte access via a register. Shift register would be nicer, making multiplies and  a few other calculations easier/faster.

[NightWolve]

Yeah, krik voiced the possibility of adding Arcade Card support at the last minute but he abandoned it with his TE v2 redesign unfortunately. Bonknuts got what he wanted though as far as extra writeable RAM per what elmer mentions, you just can't turn that into support for official ACD games from my understanding because the mapper wasn't implemented and whatever else is lacking. That's why it's worth exploring for steve-o/turbo to make a repro of it.

[thesteve]

as far as 5V it wouldnt be required on the cpld as the RAM can be 5V and drive the outputs
a 3.3v chip can address a 5V chip fine

[OldMan]

as far as 5V it wouldnt be required on the cpld as the RAM can be 5V and drive the outputs
a 3.3v chip can address a 5V chip fine

+1 problem solved.

[elmer]

as far as 5V it wouldnt be required on the cpld as the RAM can be 5V and drive the outputs
a 3.3v chip can address a 5V chip fine

+1 problem solved.

IIRC, maybe not according to the TailChao's posts specifically complaining about people doing that ... they're around here somewhere.

But perhaps you're thinking about something else, or perhaps I'm just wrong ... I remember just enough electronics to think that I still know something, but I probably don't.

[thesteve]

inputs to the 3.3v chip will need a resistor to limit current, allowing the internal diodes to clamp the voltage
3.3V outputs are sufficient to control TTL 5V inputs, tho not by a large margin

[elmer]

It's entirely up to you, and the implications of the exact details are bit above my knowledge-level, but in my ignorance, it sounds like you're proposing exactly what TailChao was warning against ...

pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=18629.msg431983#msg431983

I've seen 3.3V parts on 5V consoles without proper level shifting and ghetto ass diode regulators to drop the supply voltage for them. This is not cool for the parts, the console, or you. But it's done again and again because it's cheap.

He includes a link to the following thread ...

Interfacing CMOS 3.3V logic
http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2170

Anyway ... 5V CPLDs do still exist, they're just getting harder to find.

<EDIT>

For example,

http://www.atmel.com/products/programmable-logic/spld-cpld/cpld-atf15xx-family-industry-standard-compatible.aspx

[thesteve]

not quite as he described (hadnt even talked about power source)
i was actually referring to a common exception in most chip data sheets, that states the input voltage doesnt need to be observed as long as currents are
note this only applies to diode protected inputs and would need to be confirmed with the MFG data before designing around it

[OldMan]

Okay, problem not solved.

I doubt there would be enough room for the diodes/resistors needed.
You -might- be able to squeeze a level-shifter on there, if it's small. Would we need 2? (input+output?)
Any idea of what kind of delay would that cause...?

Assuming we can't find a stash of big enough 5V CPLD/PGA's somewhere...

[SplatterTrigger]

Do these come with repro manuals, or is that one you just already had?

Only Magical Chase did.

[Sapicco]

Are these available yet?   And, can you make cd games on the hu's?

Sorry to ask again, but were these questions answered somewhere in these nine pages?

[NecroPhile]

No, CDs can't go on Hueys.

[elmer]

Not that I am aware of. Doesn't the arcade card have extra registers? (I'm pretty sure there is at least a shift register available.) Are those emulated on the TED 2?
Extra memory is nice, even if it's single-byte access via a register. Shift register would be nicer, making multiplies and  a few other calculations easier/faster.

Nope, you're right, the TED2 doesn't have the Arcade Card's shift-registers.

I guess it's all a question of how you define "Super Arcade Card". If you want 100%-compatibility with the existing Arcade Card, then you'll have to design your own, or wait for some mythical future TED3.

i was actually referring to a common exception in most chip data sheets, that states the input voltage doesnt need to be observed as long as currents are
note this only applies to diode protected inputs and would need to be confirmed with the MFG data before designing around it.

Ah, thanks!

Yes, those discussions specifically mention that some 3.3V chips are designed to accept connection to 5V inputs through a resistor, as documented in the MFG data sheet. The old Cyclone2 FPGA was specifically mentioned.

Okay, problem not solved.

I doubt there would be enough room for the diodes/resistors needed.
You -might- be able to squeeze a level-shifter on there, if it's small. Would we need 2? (input+output?)
Any idea of what kind of delay would that cause...?

Assuming we can't find a stash of big enough 5V CPLD/PGA's somewhere...

They're around, but the prices seem a little high (to me) for the capability that they offer.

A TQFP100 package is going to eat up a lot of board space for only 128 macrocells, and the smaller TQFP44 only offers 64 macrocells. I'm not sure what you'd need in order to replicate the Arcade Card.

In comparison ... the FPGA in Krikzz's TED2 has 1280 cells.

You're also going to be limited by the RAM choices, or you'll end up with lots of RAM chips on your board.

I could only find one MFG of 2MB 5V SRAM chips when I looked, and they seemed quite expensive.

When you start looking for parts that are actually available, you can quickly understand why Krikzz decided to use all 3.3V logic, and add 5V level-shifters.

You only have to look at the TED2 board to see how much physical space that all took up, and that was using a physically-tiny-but-tall 4MB BGA RAM chip, which wouldn't be an option for you if you want the nice plastic case.

[turbokon]

Our black and gold hucards are here.  These will be available mid June or so.

Here are some pictures of a 2 in 1 black card with the built-in switch.

[esteban]

Holy mother of shite!

Gorgeous.

[Killjoyy027]

They are sick looking , great job ! 

[thesteve]

see a switch can be discreet

[RNSpeed]

Looking great!

[gojira1954]

I think they look way better in black/gold... nice!

[pnauts]

Actually we were already working on this before stumbling across ichigobankai's post.  Thesteve already started on the layout before I saw ichigobanki post.  However having ichigobanki's cards on hand did helped on the programming aspect of it.

Ichigo worked on it since at least April 2014 on a french website (and at the time he worked on it for a couple of months).

[shubibiman]

Ok Turbokon. So you just steal someone else's work and then you sell fake games 45$. Do you have the licence for that or are you just gonna be one of those "PCE memories" scumbags ?

[turbokon]

Ok Turbokon. So you just steal someone else's work and then you sell fake games 45$. Do you have the licence for that or are you just gonna be one of those "PCE memories" scumbags ?

Wowzer, don't know how to respond to this but to each his own.

[turbokon]

Here is an example of a 2in1 card.

[Medic_wheat]

Here is an example of a 2in1 card.

I wonder.  Plus a super cd game be dumped on a repro Hu card. Or everdrive and patched to play without the use of the actual CD ? Just sort of trick system to think there was a CD.

[shubibiman]

For those who'd like to know, this is the true, genuine repro Hucard.



Made in France.

Available for cheap. Very cheap.

This was made one year ago.

[turbokon]

For those who'd like to know, this is the true, genuine repro Hucard.




Made in France.

Available for cheap. Very cheap.

This was made one year ago.

Yep, cheap because these are DIY kits and with the plastic backs which you will have to get made separately. There is a separate for sale thread for these out there.  Another option if you prefer to go this route.

Here it is against ours. Notice the back.

[CrackTiger]

Ok Turbokon. So you just steal someone else's work and then you sell fake games 45$. Do you have the licence for that or are you just gonna be one of those "PCE memories" scumbags ?

I'm just curious as to what exactly was stolen and how you know?

Looking at the photos posted by you and turbokon, literally every single physical aspect of these two types of cards is different. The pins are different, the shape of the inlay where the black section is on real HuCards is different, the textured grip is different, the corners of the cards are different, the entire back is different, the sticker space looks different, one appears to have a shinier finish than the other...

Are just saying that the idea of making repro HuCards and using gold paint is being stolen? Are you calling ichigobankai a scumbag as well?

I honestly just want to know what you think is going on.

[shubibiman]

Of course, I'm not just talking about the color or the shape. Turbokon perfectly knows what I'm talking about. The visual aspect doesn't change much about what is actually going on here.

And 45$ for repros without licence is just the same bullcrap as the "PCE memories" thing. If those cards were at least used for homebrew games, it would be ok. But it doesn't seem it's going to be the case.

Boxes look like crap BTW.

Whatever, 45$ is way too much for this.

[turbokon]

Of course, I'm not just talking about the color or the shape. Turbokon perfectly knows what I'm talking about. The visual aspect doesn't change much about what is actually going on here.

And 45$ for repros without licence is just the same bullcrap as the "PCE memories" thing. If those cards were at least used for homebrew games, it would be ok. But it doesn't seem it's going to be the case.

Boxes look like crap BTW.

Whatever, 45$ is way too much for this.

I think $45 is reasonable compared to other repro's for other system and the time it takes for us to make each one.

Yes, ichigo did influenced us that's why our version2 looks more like his with the black and gold contacts and some other little changes that was made compared to our white one.

And you are the first person to tell me that the box looks like crap and I respect your opinion.

[CrackTiger]

Of course, I'm not just talking about the color or the shape. Turbokon perfectly knows what I'm talking about. The visual aspect doesn't change much about what is actually going on here.

And 45$ for repros without licence is just the same bullcrap as the "PCE memories" thing. If those cards were at least used for homebrew games, it would be ok. But it doesn't seem it's going to be the case.

Boxes look like crap BTW.

Whatever, 45$ is way too much for this.

So you're saying that they stole the internal pcb design?