Xanadu II Translation Development Blog

[elmer]

Here's a thought, but I'm not sure if it's a good one.

There's definitely no room for the subtitle on the Xanadu 2 Main Menu screen, which would give a nasty inconsistency.

[SamIAm]

It's a nice gesture, but let's think about this in terms of how you would write those full titles in plain text.

The Legend of Xanadu - Legend of the Wind
The Legend of Xanadu - Legend of the Wind II

Pros: That is certainly the original cover-art titles with no modifications other than changing the Japanese bit to English and dropping one "Xanadu".

Cons: We really shouldn't have two "Legends" in a single title. Additionally, if you want to say that one is only a subtitle, then the way I look at it, Legend of the Wind effectively becomes the main title. It would be more appropriate for our graphic, therefore, to put The Legend of Xanadu in small gold letters above a larger graphic that says "Legend of the Wind".

If someone wants to try this, it could actually be nice. I don't know what kind of logistical trouble we would have, however.

--------------------------------

Alternative:

The Legend of Xanadu - Legend of the Wind
The Legend of Xanadu II - Legend of the Wind

Pros: This lets us keep The Legend of Xanadu as the main title.

Cons: It ups the confusion-factor for me. When I start reading the second one, I really expect it to have a different subtitle.

Whichever pair you're looking at, bear in mind that this isn't really part 1 and part 2 of a single adventure or anything; these are two totally separate games in one series. Xanadu 2 is so far removed from the first one, it's practically Xanadu Gaiden.

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Frankly, I think that Falcom's dual-language naming of these games is not really logical, and any attempt we make to honor it perfectly in one language is going to be inherently flawed. The old keep-it-simple rule says we should either go with The Legend of Xanadu only or Xanadu - Legend of the Wind only.

As mentioned above, this one exception might work:

The Legend of Xanadu
Legend of the Wind II

Again, though, this may not be truly practical.

-----------------------------------

One more option:

The Legend of Xanadu - Legend of the Wind
The Legend of Xanadu II - Legend of the Wind II

Surely this would be silly?

[NightWolve]

Wow, just caught up, skimmed past 7-8 pages and really fantastic work and detail guys! Sorry BT, I had to skim over some of your posts which I feel bad about but there's definitely interesting reads in here for those that care to take the time!

I really dunno where elmer came from, how he landed here, still hard to believe, but it's INCREDIBLY lucky someone with his experience/background wound up taking such an interest in fan translation projects for the PC Engine CD and in particular two Falcom masterpieces!!!

When I started projects in 2001, one of the big reasons was I felt it unjust how NES and SNES had major talent like elmer giving it attention all the time, but yet you couldn't find one project of any significance/excitement over in the PC Engine/TG-16 realm. There were patches for Super Daisenryaku CD and 3-4 HuCards at the time and that was it, games nobody really gave a shit about...

I was a bigger fan of NES/SNES growing up actually, but yeah, I wasn't needed for projects there, they were doing just fine! Getting Neill Corlett to come over from SNES focus to help us for "Ys IV: Dawn of Ys" took his Finish friend and later on me, and we only got him for ROM analysis, script decompression/extraction, then he took off to work on other projects/interests... Anyway, it's still nowhere near the activity/attention that NES/SNES and other consoles get, but it's nice to see some real dents being made towards changing that for our beloved platform...

P.S. I love you guys...

[elmer]

It's a nice gesture, but let's think about this in terms of how you would write those full titles in plain text.

Uncle! Uncle! I give in!   

You are, of course, absolutely right.

I loved the idea, I tried it, and I didn't really like the results.

Even if I were to ignore all your good arguments about the naming ... it just doesn't look good on the screen.

The logo without the "II" at the end of it just doesn't look good with a subtitle that's as long as it is hovering beneath it.

With the large "II" at the end of the logo, it has the extra visual anchor to allow the "THE LAST DRAGON SLAYER" to work well underneath it.

Well ... that's my unprofessional "programmer-not-artist" opinion, anyway. 

I really dunno where elmer came from, how he landed here, still hard to believe, but it's INCREDIBLY lucky someone with his experience/background wound up taking such an interest in fan translation projects for the PC Engine CD and in particular two Falcom masterpieces!!!

Thank you for the kind words!

The SuperGrafx was the first console that I personally chose to buy after working in the industry for a few years.

Folks that don't program, or who haven't programmed on the different 4th-gen consoles, can't understand just quite how revolutionary and how well designed the PCE was, especially in comparison to the later 4th-gen consoles.

Most of the "hacker" community seem to be folks that grew up loving the NES/SNES as kids, and so want to keep that love alive as adults.

I was writing games in those days. I love the PCE because it's the most forward-looking and elegent design of its times.

It deserves more love because it's just that darned good, and IDGAF about whether it sold well in the USA or not.

It heralded the change from ROM into CD, and it did it with a design that is pure-genius. That's something that I wish that more folks could appreciate.

[SamIAm]

I loved the idea, I tried it, and I didn't really like the results.

... it just doesn't look good on the screen.

The more you play Xanadu 1 and watch the story unfold, I think the more you'll feel a slight itch of worry that maybe "Legend of the Wind" is something that should be featured in the title.

However, The Legend of Xanadu alone is still completely reasonable, IMHO. Falcom put us in a position where there is no perfect choice, for one thing; for another, "wind" is almost completely gone from the second game as a story element.

Now...if someone wants to make a 192x64 mock-up of "Xanadu - Legend of the Wind", that would be completely reasonable, too.

("Legend of the Wind - Xanadu" kinda sorta works, too, but I think the order is a little funny when you consider how "Xanadu" is supposed to be a series of its own. It's like saying "Rondo of Blood - Castlevania" instead of the other way around.)

P.S. I love you guys...

Aww, we love you too, NightWolve. 

I never imagined when I first saw him posting on the forums that elmer and I would make this partnership. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I really couldn't have asked for a better person to work with. His skill and work-ethic make me want to do the best that I can, and it's largely because of this motivation and the high-quality results that this project has been the most engaging and enjoyable thing I've ever been lucky enough to work on.

Poor old elmer hasn't even really gotten a chance to play the games yet, so he probably hasn't felt the magic all along quite like I have. I'm hoping that when he finally does get to play them, he'll feel all the more rewarded for his efforts. 

[Phase]

Now...if someone wants to make a 192x64 mock-up of "Xanadu - Legend of the Wind", that would be completely reasonable, too.

Here's a quick mock up using the same style in the second game.

[esteban]

Now...if someone wants to make a 192x64 mock-up of "Xanadu - Legend of the Wind", that would be completely reasonable, too.

Here's a quick mock up using the same style in the second game.

HOLY CHRIST
I am
RIP TORN

I really like it.

[elmer]

I really like it.

It's definitely interesting, isn't it? 

I don't love the big "II", but it could work with a "Legend of the Wind II" subtitle.

[elmer]

I don't love the big "II", but it could work with a "Legend of the Wind II" subtitle.

Here's a small modification of Phase's last mockup, with a few pixels pushed here-and-there. 




I specifically moved "Legend of the Wind" over a few pixels so that so can see more of the tail of the X, which IMHO helps it to feel less "detached" from the rest of the X.

As it is now, this could easily work in both Xanadu 2 and Xanadu 1.

Sam, Phase ... over to you guys for the next round of changes! 

How do folks feel?

Is this going in the right direction, or were we better off the "The Legend of Xanadu"?

[esteban]

I don't love the big "II", but it could work with a "Legend of the Wind II" subtitle.

Here's a small modification of Phase's last mockup, with a few pixels pushed here-and-there. 




I specifically moved "Legend of the Wind" over a few pixels so that so can see more of the tail of the X, which IMHO helps it to feel less "detached" from the rest of the X.

As it is now, this could easily work in both Xanadu 2 and Xanadu 1.

Sam, Phase ... over to you guys for the next round of changes! 

How do folks feel?

Is this going in the right direction, or were we better off the "The Legend of Xanadu"?

Renaissance man.

Or mangrove, as it were.

IT LOOKS AWESOME.

IT SOLVES OUR SCHIZOID PROBLEMS.

[SamIAm]

This is really tough. I like Phase's work a lot, and seeing "Legend of the Wind" makes me feel good in a way that "The Legend of Xanadu" never does.

I think elmer, Phase and I all agree that "The Legend of Xanadu" is probably what we should go with. It seems like it's Falcom's official English title. It's on all the packaging. It's how everyone knows these games.

But dammit, the Japanese title is "Legend of the Wind", and to one extent or another, that's important to the first game.

I think the thing to do is to sit on it for a while, and also to see what elmer thinks after he's previewed the games in full.

[schweaty]

Phase's version is amaze-balls

[Vimtoman]

I'm not keen on the "Legend of the wind" addition.

It could be mistaken as a reference to Ah hem ....  flatulence.

[spenoza]

I'm not keen on the "Legend of the wind" addition.

It could be mistaken as a reference to Ah hem ....  flatulence.

No, that is not a mistake any even remotely reasonable human being would make.

[NightWolve]

I'm not keen on the "Legend of the wind" addition.

It could be mistaken as a reference to Ah hem ....  flatulence.

Hah, that's a good point actually and it didn't occur to me earlier!

[SamIAm]

I'd be just as worried about people confusing this game for the 1968 UK #1 single The Legend of Xanadu by Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich (no, I am not making that name up).

Pew! Pew!

This, by the way, is the first thing that comes up in Google (at least where I am) when I search this title.

[NecroPhile]

I much prefer "The Legend of Xanadu", as "Legend of the Wind" sounds like a bad, engrishy, literal translation.  Seminon winds and starkblasts are noteworthy, but 'the wind' is generic and commonplace.

[SamIAm]

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call "Legend of the Wind" Engrishy. Bland and generic, maybe, but without knowing that it was a foreign title, I wouldn't assume it was one. Plus, having "Xanadu" before it makes it a lot more interesting.

Bear in mind, "legend of the wind" is something that appears in the game script as an actual thing in the story (of the first game). "Xanadu" does not appear at all.

The probability of us going with "The Legend of Xanadu" is still pretty high, though.

[esteban]

I have flip-flopped again (and not just because I am at the pool)!



BOTTOM LINE:

I much prefer "The Legend of Xanadu", as "Legend of the Wind" sounds like a bad, engrishy, literal translation.  Seminon winds and starkblasts are noteworthy, but 'the wind' is generic and commonplace.

Exactly.

These two games MUST have an easily-identifiable, unique "identity" (sorry!) for English-speakers.

No matter how faithful "Legend of the Wind" may be, it is simply too generic.

Too hackneyed. Too trite.

It took sincere dedication to consider multiple titles...but the one that seems most enduring (in the grand scheme of the cosmos)....


The wind of fate has blown,
that same wind from a thousand years ago,
and it has raised the veil of mystery...

THE LEGEND OF XANADU

[elmer]

I'm playing through the 8th level of Xanadu 1 right now, and I can definitely say that Areios being the fullfilment of the "Legend of the Wind" is coming across really strongly in the story.

I've not seen any mention of "Xanadu", or "The Legend of Xanadu" anywhere. 

But, IMHO, that doesn't mean that it's wrong to call the games themselves "The Legend of Xanadu".

I have no problem considering the title to mean something like "The Legends of Xanadu", and this story "Legend of the Wind" is just one of the legends.

I have no problem considering the title to mean something like "The Legend of Xanadu", and this story is just part of the continuing story of Aineas's bloodline's battle with the Evil Dragon.

We're actually looking at two distinctly different uses of the logo in the game.

**************

The first use is in the cutscenes ...

In Xanadu 1, it's shown on screen for approximately 8 seconds at the start of a cutscene that you only see after you've played through three levels of the game, and after you've already had some hints about the "Legend of the Wind" and about Areios's destiny.

At this point, seeing "Xanadu : Legend of the Wind" is going to make some sense, wheras seeing "The Legend of Xanadu" is just a generic use of the game's name in a cutscene in the middle of the game.

In Xanadu 2, it's shown on screen for approximately 20 seconds at the start of the cutscene that shows all of the character portraits, and re-introduces the player to the characters.

When you see it at that point in Xanadu 2, you should already have played Xanadu 1 and be familiar with the concept of the "Legend of the Wind" and Areios's connection to that legend.

It's also got "THE LAST DRAGON SLAYER" subtitle when it's used here, just to complicate things. 

**************

The second use is on the Main Menu screen for Xanadu 2 (it's not on the Main Menu for Xanadu 1).

The screen has the green background for approximately 80 seconds and then fades out to a black background.

The logo is shown for as long as you're sitting on the Main Menu, and it's really got no direct connection to the story itself. It's neutral.

**************

To be honest, Falcom's whole use of naming, and the schizoid split between the large English "The Legend of Xanadu" on the box together with the Japanese "Xanadu : Legend of the Wind" suggests to me that we could easily get away with being just as schizoid.

How about we use the "Xanadu : Legend of the Wind" logo in the 2 cutscenes which refer directly to the story and the characters, and then use "The Legend of Xanadu II" logo on the Main Menu screen where it can be seen to refer more to the series of games? 

You'd be getting the large "Xanadu" as the visual connection between the two.

Heck, if it wasn't seen as over-the-top, then I could hack the Main Menu screen on Xanadu 2 to start with "The Legend of Xanadu II" logo, and then switch to "Xanadu : Legend of the Wind II" when the background goes to black.

Double heck, it would be a huge PITA, but it might be possible to hack the Xanadu 2 cutscene to use both logos as well.

The possibilities are just as crazy as Falcom's original naming scheme! 

BTW ... visually, I think that Phase's "The Legend of Xanadu II" logo just plain looks the best on the screen when you see if for a long time, as you do on the Xanadu 2 Main Menu.

[esteban]

Goddamn.

[EmperorIng]

"The Last of Dragon Slayer" (ie "The Final Dragon Slayer") is a great subtitle and it would be a crime if it for some reason edged out (in that scene) for wind-whatever.

It feels right, signifying that this is the last game in a long, winding legacy of games called "Dragon Slayer", building off of one another with experimentation and permutation. Even if the first Xanadu game was technically the "last" Dragon Slayer, it has an impact that tugs at the heartstrings of people who have played through other games under the "Dragon Slayer" banner, and serves to perhaps entice new people to Falcom's other early and seminal titles.

I feel like it's a good idea to have the games' titles consistent as "The Legend of Xanadu" because well, that's what they are called. If it's not outside the realm of impossibility, I like the use of LoX for the title screens and then using the Xanadu: Legend of the Wind in their appropriate cutscenes to give players a better sense of what the adventure is going to be all about. It might be a good workaround to the games' multiple-title-syndromes.

[esteban]

FINAL DECISION:

The Winds of Xanadu

AKA:
Xanadu, the Windy City

[CrackTiger]

"The Last of Dragon Slayer" (ie "The Final Dragon Slayer") is a great subtitle and it would be a crime if it for some reason edged out (in that scene) for wind-whatever.

It feels right, signifying that this is the last game in a long, winding legacy of games called "Dragon Slayer", building off of one another with experimentation and permutation. Even if the first Xanadu game was technically the "last" Dragon Slayer, it has an impact that tugs at the heartstrings of people who have played through other games under the "Dragon Slayer" banner, and serves to perhaps entice new people to Falcom's other early and seminal titles.

I feel like it's a good idea to have the games' titles consistent as "The Legend of Xanadu" because well, that's what they are called. If it's not outside the realm of impossibility, I like the use of LoX for the title screens and then using the Xanadu: Legend of the Wind in their appropriate cutscenes to give players a better sense of what the adventure is going to be all about. It might be a good workaround to the games' multiple-title-syndromes.

SPOILER ALERT






Dragon Slayer is the legendary weapon used by the hero who chucks it into the ocean at the end of the game, so that it is never used again.

So this isn't one last dragon slayer, it is the last of Dragon Slayer.

[elmer]

Dragon Slayer is the legendary weapon used by the hero who chucks it into the ocean at the end of the game, so that it is never used again.

So this isn't one last dragon slayer, it is the last of Dragon Slayer.

Hahaha ... brilliant! More fuel to the fire! 

I thought that I'd asked about that connection many pages back in the thread.

So ... this really is one of those cases where Falcom's English is correct, and it's not just another one of their dubious translations like "The Story is Begining".

I can have it say "THE LAST DRAGON SLAYER", I can have it say "THE FINAL DRAGON SLAYER", I can have it say "THE LAST OF DRAGON SLAYER", and I can even have it say "DON'T BE A COLLECTARD".

I actually like "THE LAST OF DRAGON SLAYER" being a reference to the sword better than it being a reference to the series, because the latter breaks the 4th wall.

[SamIAm]

I've taught English in Japan for 10 years, and all of my instinct tells me that that "of" is a mistake.

We talked about this a bit before. I still stand by this notion I posted:

If the meaning is more along the lines of "the sword's last outing" than "the final game in the series", then there is certainly no problem story-wise. However...and I'm open to discussion on this...I think you would need to say "The Last of the Dragon Slayer". If you leave out "the", then Dragon Slayer becomes a more directly addressed entity like Peter or Mark, and I have to leave out "the" everywhere just as I would never say "The Peter" or "The Mark".

"Hand over Dragon Slayer!"

"We better find Dragon Slayer."

"Only Dragon Slayer can defeat him."

It kind of reminds me of the way Tolkien had weapons with real names in The Lord of the Rings, like Glamdring, and treated them almost like living beings. Here, though, I have to say that I still prefer the sound of the Dragon Slayer. Like I said, I'm open to discussion on this.

Is it referred to as the Dragon Slayer in other games in the series that have already been translated?

[elmer]

If the meaning is more along the lines of "the sword's last outing" than "the final game in the series", then there is certainly no problem story-wise. However...and I'm open to discussion on this...I think you would need to say "The Last of the Dragon Slayer". If you leave out "the", then Dragon Slayer becomes a more directly addressed entity like Peter or Mark, and I have to leave out "the" everywhere just as I would never say "The Peter" or "The Mark".

Yep, you're definitely right there. 

But, I have no problem with Aineas's legendary sword "Dragon Slayer" being a "named" item.

Perhaps I've been playing for too many hours in a row, or perhaps it's just that that's how I already think of it, but I could swear that you've already been translating it in that way in the last couple of chapters of the game that I've been going through. 

Now ... I could be wrong there, especially after dismissing that "You've played for an hour, now take a break." message too many times in a row because I'm really enjoying the game ... but I definitely do like "The sword Dragon Slayer" much more than "The sword is the Dragon Slayer".  The second usage really shouldn't have capital letters in my understanding of English.

Good point about the other games, though. I guess that my personal preferences don't trump Falcom's actual history of usage if there's a conflict.

[SamIAm]

Perhaps I've been playing for too many hours in a row, or perhaps it's just that that's how I already think of it, but I could swear that you've already been translating it in that way in the last couple of chapters of the game that I've been going through. 

Elmer, my friend, I think you need a break. 

Run a text search for "Dragon Slayer" in the script set. I cannot find a single instance of it not having "the" when it's in a sentence (you know, and not in the item lists).

I think I leaned toward using "the" initially because "Slayer" sounds like a descriptor as much as a name. We could still go without it, but there would be that initial shock until the player realizes that it's a name only.

Tell you what - when you finish Xanadu 1, run that text search and imagine each sentence without "the", and let me know what you think. 

[SamIAm]

Very few games in the Dragon Slayer series were officially localized, so there isn't a lot of precedent. Not to mention, the decision of whether to use "the" may have been made solely by some random white guy in some random office rather than by Falcom themselves.

Articles, aka "a" and "the", don't exist in Japanese, and their proper usage is one of the most difficult subtleties to grasp for language learners here. I doubt that anyone on the original Falcom staff would have been able to quickly understand the difference between "Where is Dragon Slayer?" and "Where is the Dragon Slayer?"

Anyway, I'm at work right now and can't watch youtube to confirm, but based on what FAQs say, it looks like it's "the Dragon Slayer" in Faxanadu and Legacy of the Wizard.

EDIT: According to the manual for Legacy of the Wizard, it's "DragonSlayer" with no space. 
See for yourself. It's in the story paragraphs at the beginning. "Father said 'Don't worry, there is a DragonSlayer.'"

Meanwhile, in the Faxanadu manual, it has the space, but it's never in a sentence, so it doesn't tell us much. Link.

[elmer]

Elmer, my friend, I think you need a break. 

But I've just got to the door to the Boss in Ch.7 ... I can't take a break now!!! 

Maybe soon.   

Articles, aka "a" and "the", don't exist in Japanese, and their proper usage is one of the most difficult subtleties to grasp for language learners here. I doubt that anyone on the original Falcom staff would have been able to quickly understand the difference between "Where is Dragon Slayer?" and "Where is the Dragon Slayer?"

Anyway, I'm at work right now and can't watch youtube to confirm, but based on what FAQs say, it looks like it's "the Dragon Slayer" in Faxanadu and Legacy of the Wizard.

"Faxanadu"? That was done by some no-name losers called Hudsun (or something like that), who cares what they think!   

...

...


OK ... you got me. But I still prefer "Dragon Slayer" to "the Dragon Slayer".

Perhaps I just read too much Tolkien as a kid. 

[SamIAm]

But I've just got to the door to the Boss in Ch.7 ... I can't take a break now!!! 

Maybe soon.   

Congratulations! The next two chapters will be a breeze.

-----------------------------

You should take a gander at the edit I made after you posted your last message. It's very  .

Anyway, if Excalibur had been called King Maker, I think people would have either referred to it as the King Maker, or they would have renamed it to Kingmaker. In that regard, I see where they were going with DragonSlayer.

But basically, you should finish the game, and then we can have a nice long nerdy chat about all of this. 

EDIT: It is "the Dragon Slayer" in Faxandu.

[SamIAm]

Wait a cotton-picking minute...

Does the Dragon Slayer sword exist in either of the Dragon Slayer - Legend of Heroes games on the PCE-CD? I don't see it in any of the item lists that I can find in either English or Japanese. Is the main character the Dragon Slayer? Or is the sword too special to be listed with the items at all?

In the Super Famicom versions, it exists as an item in the first game, but not in the second.

I've also been investigating the Lord Monarch strategy games, which were only released in Japan and are another Dragon Slayer series offshoot. I can't seem to find the sword there, either.

If the sword itself isn't even in every game, if only in the story, then it makes all the less sense for THE LAST OF DRAGON SLAYER to be talking about the sword over the series.

TBH, I think it's talking about the series anyway. The sword's role in Xanadu 2's story is quite minor, and it would be strange for them to be celebrating it so much in the opening. Falcom may have intended a kind of double-meaning, but FWIW my gut tells me that if they were told that it's got to be either/or, they would put the series over the sword.

----------------------------

EDIT: If you're curious, the word Dragon Slayer appears 79 times in Xanadu 1 and 20 times in Xanadu 2, cutscenes included and item lists discluded. While I'm at it, the word Wind appears 126 times in Xanadu 1 (though about 10% are redundant) and only 10 times in Xanadu 2.

EDIT2: I checked the scans I made of Xanadu 2 from PC Engine Fan magazine (I have everything that magazine published for the game), and otherwise searched around the internet. While I didn't find anything totally conclusive, I did see two interesting things:

- The most common advertisement calls Xanadu 2 "one last trial." To me, this sounds more like one last game for the player than one last outing for the sword. I have yet to encounter mention of the sword.

- The Japanese wikipedia article on the series says that Xanadu 2 "was sold as the final installment of the series." That's the wording they used （シリーズ最終作として発売された）. It was not "the last game in the series to be put on sale."

EDIT3: Xanadu 1 took two years to make. During the first year, its working title was ザ・レジェンド・オブ・ザナドゥ～風の物語. This is something like "The Legend of Xanadu - A tale of the wind". Yes, that's Kaze no Monogatari instead of Kaze no Densetsu, and yes, they did write "The Legend of Xanadu" in katakana in front of it.

Take that for what you will, I guess. I better reiterate that from the second year forward, it was only ever mentioned as Kaze no Densetsu Xanadu in all Japanese print (that I can find). Anyway, on one hand, this legitimizes "The Legend of Xanadu" as being a bit more than decorative; on the other, it shows that "wind" has always been a key word.

I would love to see some magazine scans from 1992 when Falcom must have been giving interviews about their concept for this game.

[elmer]

Wow, that's a lot of good research. 

I don't really know where it leaves us, but it's all very good stuff to know.

- The most common advertisement calls Xanadu 2 "one last trial." To me, this sounds more like one last game for the player than one last outing for the sword. I have yet to encounter mention of the sword.

- The Japanese wikipedia article on the series says that Xanadu 2 "was sold as the final installment of the series." That's the wording they used （シリーズ最終作として発売された）. It was not "the last game in the series to be put on sale."

This seems to push us more firmly towards using "THE FINAL DRAGON SLAYER" as the subtitle in the Xanadu 2 cutscene.

I guess that since the game is set 1000 years after the original series, it can be seen as the final time that you visit the world in terms of the game-world's chronology, even if it's not the last game that they ever released that was set in that world.

So, are we happy with "THE FINAL DRAGON SLAYER", or is this still under discussion?

EDIT3: Xanadu 1 took two years to make. During the first year, its working title was ザ・レジェンド・オブ・ザナドゥ～風の物語. This is something like "The Legend of Xanadu - A tale of the wind". Yes, that's Kaze no Monogatari instead of Kaze no Densetsu, and yes, they did write "The Legend of Xanadu" in katakana in front of it.

Take that for what you will, I guess. I better reiterate that from the second year forward, it was only ever mentioned as Kaze no Densetsu Xanadu in all Japanese print (that I can find). Anyway, on one hand, this legitimizes "The Legend of Xanadu" as being a bit more than decorative; on the other, it shows that "wind" has always been a key word.

It's good to know that "The Legend of Xanadu" really does have more legitimacy, but we're still left with the question of what logo to use, and where.

Here is where all this information leads me ... (currently, and not neccessarily finally) ...

I think that we should be using "The Legend of Xanadu II" (possibly without the II) on the Xanadu 2 Main Menu.

It's really what all English speakers are going to expect when they first boot up the game, and anything else will be confusing.

I think that we should use the "II", because it's the 2nd game in the series, it's going to be confusing to people without it, and it just darned looks better to me with the "II".

I think that we should use "Xanadu : Legend of the Wind" and "Xanadu : Legend of the Wind II" in the cutscenes because it makes the most sense to the story, and to the second game being a continuation of the lives of the characters, even if the "Legend of the Wind" itself was pretty much fullfilled in the 1st game (I assume ... not got there, yet).

The whole "Wind" theme seems to be such an important part of the story that it would feel a bit wierd to ignore it altogether, and it would be strange to put it in the 1st game, but never mention it in the 2nd game.

But I'm not going to be in a rush to change the cutscenes just yet, in case the decision goes the other way.

[esteban]

I think that we should be using "The Legend of Xanadu II" (possibly without the II) on the Xanadu 2 Main Menu.

It's really what all English speakers are going to expect when they first boot up the game, and anything else will be confusing.

I think that we should use the "II", because it's the 2nd game in the series, it's going to be confusing to people without it, and it just darned looks better to me with the "II".

I think that we should use "Xanadu : Legend of the Wind" and "Xanadu : Legend of the Wind II" in the cutscenes because it makes the most sense to the story, and to the second game being a continuation of the lives of the characters, even if the "Legend of the Wind" itself was pretty much fullfilled in the 1st game (I assume ... not got there, yet).

The whole "Wind" theme seems to be such an important part of the story that it would feel a bit wierd to ignore it altogether, and it would be strange to put it in the 1st game, but never mention it in the 2nd game.

Yes.

All of this.

[joobloo]

How about:

Xanadu: Legend of the Wind
Xanadu II: The Last Dragon Slayer

Each game would then have a unique title.  I dunno, haven't played through either game, but just an idea from reading through this thread.

[CrackTiger]

Games that might feature the sword Dragon Slayer, which have been localized in the past, likely didn't receive extremely faithful translations, as that was rare back then. Maybe it appeared in and was called by name in the Japanese versions of games within the overall series.

The Dragon Slayer in The Legend of Xanadu II is the same one from the Dragon Slayer logo that has existed since the first Dragon Slayer game. TLoXII is tying everything together and that sword didn't have to be in every game which either had it in the title/subtite or was an official member of the overall series.

With TLoXII, they made a point of not only having Arios chuck it at the end and make a big show of it, the final screen of the game, done the same way as the final screens of the PCE Ys games, showcases Dragon Slayer residing at the bottom of the ocean, instead of a girly pic. The last of Dragon Slayer is obviously important to the creative members of the dev team. Many films, books, etc include a title or subtitle that only makes its full or true meaning clear as the story unfolds.

As people unfamiliar with the game have shown with various comments, adding a "THE" to LAST OF DRAGONSLAYER" will only make everyone all the more think that it's refering to someone who slays dragons, instead of what it is actually refering to. The game goes out of its way to not feature any dragon slaying. Even when one boss rides a dragon while attacking you, the heroes make a point of freeing the dragon instead of slaying it, become buddies and go for a ride on it. So if it's not going to reference DRAGONSLAYER itself, then a more appropriate title would be "SOME DRAGONFRIENDERS".

[joobloo]

Ah, so something like:

Xanadu II: End of Dragonslayer

would be more faithful/make more sense.  "Last of..." just sounds kinda weird to me.  But obviously I don't know much about the history of these games, so...yeah.

[SamIAm]

If we call the sword "the Dragon Slayer" and the tagline "The Last/Final Dragon Slayer", everything works out just fine IMHO. After all, the series takes place in different worlds, and there is more than one incarnation of the sword itself.

More later.

[dshadoff]

If the sword itself isn't even in every game, if only in the story, then it makes all the less sense for THE LAST OF DRAGON SLAYER to be talking about the sword over the series.

Based on other things which have been said, who's to say that they didn't MEAN "The End of DragonSlayer", or "Dragonslayer's demise" or "Dragonslayer's Last Stand" ?

-Dave

[Vimtoman]

What about
Legends of the wind
A Dragonslayer saga

[SamIAm]

- There are eight games in the original Dragon Slayer series, some of which have their own sub-series games. None of these main eight take place in the same world or have any of the same characters, including gods. Unless there is a magic black-hole teleporting it between each game, Areios is not using the sword from 1984's Dragon Slayer. It's more like there are different incarnations of it.

- Deleting the space between Dragon and Slayer is one thing, but I really don't think dropping "the" from before it is a good idea. Faxanadu, Legacy of the Wizard, and the fan translation of Xanadu Next alike all referred to the Dragon Slayer with an article, and I think quasi-medieval Tolkien-style sword naming is a mismatch for the Kaze no Densetsu games in terms of thematic tone, character speaking style, and pure sound for this particular weapon. Therefore, THE LAST OF DRAGONSLAYER as-is does not work.

The rest is complicated, and I'll admit that I don't have a comfortable position on the whole thing, but this is one point I'm going to be fairly adamant about.

- Should there be a space between Dragon and Slayer? I honestly don't know. I see the fan translation of Xanadu Next made them one word. I need to investigate more. I don't see confusion over whether it's a sword or a human as a real problem either way, though. The first time the player sees the word Dragon Slayer is going to be in context during the opening cutscenes. I'm more interested in precedent set by Falcom themselves or official localizations.

- If we do put a space in the sword's name, I think THE LAST DRAGON SLAYER pays adequate lip service to the fact that we aren't going to see any more Dragon Slayer swords. I also think that since it allows for a double meaning (the series and the sword), it makes for a better "click" at the end. Instead of us saying at the beginning "This is the last time you're going to see the sword. (later) See? There it goes." it's more like we make the player say at the end "Oh, how nice. The series was named after the sword, and look, the sword itself is going away. I guess it really was the last Dragon Slayer."

- If we make the sword's name Dragonslayer, I have pretty mixed feelings about telling players so clearly that the sword is going away right from the beginning. I don't think it was that clear for Japanese players. As I said before, this "sword's last outing" concept doesn't seem to appear anywhere in Japanese. Show me that it does, and you'll sway me right away.

- I know Dave was just giving examples, but if we do say that this is the last we'll see of the Dragon Slayer, the tone has to be more like "The Last Adventure of the Dragon Slayer". Nothing negative like "last stand" or "demise". The game ending and the sword discarding all happen on a very positive and optimistic note.

LAST OF THE DRAGONSLAYER is not bad, with or without the space. I still think THE LAST DRAGON SLAYER is better if we put a space between the words, though.

[dshadoff]

I'm more interested in precedent set by Falcom themselves or official localizations.

Falcom does not have a stellar track record on consistency when it comes to translated names.

- If we do put a space in the sword's name, I think THE LAST DRAGON SLAYER pays adequate lip service to the fact that we aren't going to see any more Dragon Slayer swords.

Interesting thought; I hadn't considered that.

Instead of us saying at the beginning "This is the last time you're going to see the sword. (later) See? There it goes." it's more like we make the player say at the end "Oh, how nice. The series was named after the sword, and look, the sword itself is going away. I guess it really was the last Dragon Slayer."

- If we make the sword's name Dragonslayer, I have pretty mixed feelings about telling players so clearly that the sword is going away right from the beginning. I don't think it was that clear for Japanese players. As I said before, this "sword's last outing" concept doesn't seem to appear anywhere in Japanese. Show me that it does, and you'll sway me right away.

- I know Dave was just giving examples, but if we do say that this is the last we'll see of the Dragon Slayer, the tone has to be more like "The Last Adventure of the Dragon Slayer". Nothing negative like "last stand" or "demise". The game ending and the sword discarding all happen on a very positive and optimistic note.

I was trying to do a very Western thing with my examples - I wasn't trying to make it negative, but rather a subtitle which may make the reader sit up and take notice, thinking "WHAT ?  How can that be ?!?!"   (and be drawn into the game to find out the answer to their own rhetorical question).

-Dave

[TurboXray]

I never did consider "canon" Falcom's strong point. And if they ever do remake any of the Xanadu series, like they have the Ys series, they'll definitely change and add things.

 This detail about Dragon Slayer thing seems so minute, that it's rather silly to really stress over this or give it that much importance. In the grand scheme of things, and playing through this translation, does it even matter?

[joobloo]

"The Last Dragon Slayer" sounds like we're talking about a person who slays dragons, as was mentioned above.  "The End of Dragon Slayer" sounds more like we're talking about the series, possibly a person, but then we find out it's a reference to the sword.  I like them both, but I feel the latter is closer to what was meant.  But they both work on multiple levels, which is cool.

[SamIAm]

I never did consider "canon" Falcom's strong point. And if they ever do remake any of the Xanadu series, like they have the Ys series, they'll definitely change and add things.

 This detail about Dragon Slayer thing seems so minute, that it's rather silly to really stress over this or give it that much importance. In the grand scheme of things, and playing through this translation, does it even matter?

I think it would be much less of an issue if it didn't affect how we're going to call the sword. In Xanadu 1 especially, that sword plays a major role in the story and is talked about very often.

"The Last Dragon Slayer" sounds like we're talking about a person who slays dragons, as was mentioned above.  "The End of Dragon Slayer" sounds more like we're talking about the series, possibly a person, but then we find out it's a reference to the sword.  I like them both, but I feel the latter is closer to what was meant.  But they both work on multiple levels, which is cool.

I like The End of Dragon Slayer better than The Last of, but we run into the same grammatical problem where strictly speaking, in order to be talking about the sword, it has to be The End of the Dragon Slayer.

You're right, The Last Dragon Slayer isn't perfect. However, I think it's the best option we have right now.


SPOILER ALERT


The main character of Xanadu 2 is also the main character of Xanadu 1. Although there is no dragon that is slain in Xanadu 2, there is in Xanadu 1. Technically, the main character of Xanadu 2 is...you know...the last dragon slayer.

At best, The Last Dragon Slayer as a tagline is triple layered and clever. At worst, it's an inelegant stretch. Either way, I'll take it for now.

One more thing: This tagline message isn't part of the title. It's not in the manual whatsoever, nor is it in any of the promotional materials or even on the main title screen; it literally doesn't appear anywhere but this one secondary screen.

Before this screen is an intro cutscene, and in that cutscene, we meet the Dragon Slayer sword. So really, it's not that confusing, and if we make the player ask himself what it's really talking about, that's actually not a bad thing.

[dshadoff]

One more thing: This tagline message isn't part of the title. It's not in the manual whatsoever, nor is it in any of the promotional materials or even on the main title screen; it literally doesn't appear anywhere but this one secondary screen.

...Or, based on the above, this tagline could be removed to avoid confusion (and all this angst).

-Dave

[elmer]

There are eight games in the original Dragon Slayer series, some of which have their own sub-series games. None of these main eight take place in the same world or have any of the same characters, including gods. Unless there is a magic black-hole teleporting it between each game, Areios is not using the sword from 1984's Dragon Slayer. It's more like there are different incarnations of it.

? ... ?? ... ??? ... Really???     

This all just shows how little I really know about the history of these games after spending so much time working on these two. 

This detail about Dragon Slayer thing seems so minute, that it's rather silly to really stress over this or give it that much importance. In the grand scheme of things, and playing through this translation, does it even matter?

Hahaha ... I wouldn't totally disagree, we are taking this perhaps a bit too seriously ... but it's still fun to think about these things, and I'm enjoying the discussion!

You're right, The Last Dragon Slayer isn't perfect. However, I think it's the best option we have right now.

OK, this works for me.

It is in all-upper-case, so there's no distinction about that letters should be capitalized to worry about.

I'm happy enough to leave the space in there.

With all the new stuff that I've learned in the last couple of days, I'm also more-than-happy to trust your judgement and stick with "the Dragon Slayer" in the text in the way that you've been doing it.

It certainly hasn't ever seemed to look wrong or read wrong when I've been seeing the text in the message boxes.

**************

Now, there's just the whole logo issue left to obsess about! 

[SamIAm]

...Or, based on the above, this tagline could be removed to avoid confusion (and all this angst).

-Dave

Ha ha ha ha...Yes!

With Xanadu Next, the tagline isn't even true anymore!

I'd like to give keeping the tagline a shot so that we can feel good about being faithful to the source material, but if it's causing serious dysfunction, then I definitely consider cutting it an option.

That might ruffle some feathers, but one of the first rules in translation is that you can't please everybody.

[SamIAm]

There are eight games in the original Dragon Slayer series, some of which have their own sub-series games. None of these main eight take place in the same world or have any of the same characters, including gods. Unless there is a magic black-hole teleporting it between each game, Areios is not using the sword from 1984's Dragon Slayer. It's more like there are different incarnations of it.

? ... ?? ... ??? ... Really???     

This all just shows how little I really know about the history of these games after spending so much time working on these two. 

The first two of the main eight, Dragon Slayer and Xanadu, had very little story to speak of. The main characters didn't even have names.

However, one of Falcom's own employees drew and released an official manga for Xanadu in 1987. The main character is called Feig, and he is a 21st century sci-fi soldier who warps (time travels?) into the world of Xanadu. Needless to say, this has zilch to do with our Legend of the Wind-Xanadu's story.

--------------

joobloo, just in case you don't know, we shorten The Legend of Xanadu to just Xanadu around here, but this is misleading. There is another game in the Dragon Slayer series called Xanadu. Here is a list of the eight main games, including the number of sub-series games for each one.

1. Dragon Slayer (1)
2. Xanadu (2)
3. Romancia (1)
4. Drasle Family / Legacy of the Wizard (1)
5. Sorcerian (5)
6. Dragon Slayer - Legend of Heroes (2)
7. Lord Monarch (2)
8. The Legend of Xanadu / Legend of the Wind (2)

As I have read, the decision to put "Xanadu" in #8's title was based on the fact that it would include both overhead and side-scrolling sections like its predecessor, and nothing else. Apparently, a couple of the music tracks are similar, too. I need to look into that.

Storywise, however, The Legend of Xanadu starts over completely.

[Vimtoman]

What about
The Legend of Xanadu
Dragon Slayer VIII