HDMI Standard

KnightWarrior · 07/17/2016, 12:53 AM

I know Game Consoles like the PS4/Xbox One needs it

But all I see about people want to upscale there Older Consoles like the NES to HDMI..It doesn't look all to great on a Big HDTV, A small one prob

Get a CRT set to play it like it is ment for, RGB is good for me, if I have the Money & the TV ..This is just my rant about it

crazydean · 07/17/2016, 09:45 AM

The HDMI route on old consoles is mostly for people who don't want an exclusive game monitor. They have a tv in their living room and want to be able to watch Blu-ray and play NES simply because it is the easier option. There are some who actually prefer the picture of HD NES, but it's the same type of people who stretch a 4:3 image to fit a 16:9 screen.

You could also ask why anyone would want to buy from the Wii Virtual Console. I played Super Mario Bros as a demo on the Wii U and died twice on the first level, even though I can easily get to 8-4 on the NES and SNES. It's very poor emulation, but the masses have bought the shit out of it.

Look at how many people are excited about the the NES mini thing. Why not just buy a modded Wii and play everything? It's still emulation, and the NES style controllers will be available all the same.

SignOfZeta · 07/17/2016, 11:37 AM

I'm calling bullshit on "poor emulation" on WiiU. It being so poor you can't play it properly, that part particularly. That's just a bunch of crap.

ToyMachine78 · 07/17/2016, 12:13 PM

My experience with hdtvs is that the nes looked gorgeous in composite or rf.

Different story with 16bit consoles. The TG16, snes, and genny looked like ass.

The neo geo looked meh. Not horrible, but definitely not great.

A CRT is definitely the route to go

crazydean · 07/17/2016, 01:05 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 07/17/2016, 11:37 AMI'm calling bullshit on "poor emulation" on WiiU. It being so poor you can't play it properly, that part particularly. That's just a bunch of crap.

There is a lot of input lag. I'm not saying that the game can't be played. I'm saying that if you are used to playing on an original console and CRT, getting used to different button timing is going to be frustrating. Many old NES games require very specific button timing and the WiiU emulation doesn't mirror that.

Groover · 07/17/2016, 01:54 PM

Well I have so far gone the route of an HD scaler (XRGB mini) in combination with getting an RGB signal out of my old consoles to play on My TV in the living room. I have a CRT in another room with a component video option. I will likely get a SCART to Component adaptor to play them on the CRT. I do want a PVM like 20".

I hate stretched out video. The games look to me very good clear and faithful with extremely low latency. Latency seems to be the most important spec in looking at new TVs for me.

ToyMachine78 · 07/17/2016, 02:43 PM

I didn't notice any input lag when I had my systems hooked up to my hdtv. I think this varies greatly By manufacturer. I have a LG.

GaijinD · 07/17/2016, 02:44 PM

Quote from: crazydean on 07/17/2016, 01:05 PMThere is a lot of input lag. I'm not saying that the game can't be played. I'm saying that if you are used to playing on an original console and CRT, getting used to different button timing is going to be frustrating. Many old NES games require very specific button timing and the WiiU emulation doesn't mirror that.

That's not necessarily the fault of the emulation, though. You're always going to get at least a little lag playing on an HDTV. It's inherent in the technology.

Medic_wheat · 07/17/2016, 06:02 PM

Hi-Def NES - HDMI for the Original Nintendo / MY LIFE IN GAMING

Medic_wheat · 07/17/2016, 06:13 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 07/17/2016, 11:37 AMI'm calling bullshit on "poor emulation" on WiiU. It being so poor you can't play it properly, that part particularly. That's just a bunch of crap.

_{medic_wheat/.../CFB8693A-4180-42E4-B17A-232436ECBD24.png}

GohanX · 07/17/2016, 09:01 PM

NES emulation on the Wii U is pretty poor, actually. Switch it over to Wii mode for better emulation, oddly. Or better yet, plug a regular Wii into a sdtv, that's a great way to play.

Johnpv · 07/17/2016, 09:17 PM

Quote from: KnightWarrior on 07/17/2016, 12:53 AMBut all I see about people want to upscale there Older Consoles like the NES to HDMI..It doesn't look all to great on a Big HDTV, A small one prob

Well you're wrong on this one. These older consoles can look fantastic on large TVs. Plus the HDMI mods that are available for these different consoles (really there's just 2) upscale the image to 1080p with no lag, and just as crisp and sharp as RGB. Hell the mods even include scanline options if that's your thing.

Plus you're future proofing your console. HDMI as a connector on TVs isn't going anywhere any time soon. The more consoles that can get HDMI mods that can do things that the HiDef NES and ULTRAHDMI can do the better IMHO.

KnightWarrior · 07/18/2016, 05:17 PM

Quote from: Johnpv on 07/17/2016, 09:17 PMWell you're wrong on this one. These older consoles can look fantastic on large TVs. Plus the HDMI mods that are available for these different consoles (really there's just 2) upscale the image to 1080p with no lag, and just as crisp and sharp as RGB. Hell the mods even include scanline options if that's your thing.

Plus you're future proofing your console. HDMI as a connector on TVs isn't going anywhere any time soon. The more consoles that can get HDMI mods that can do things that the HiDef NES and ULTRAHDMI can do the better IMHO.

I'm not buying it at all, I would rather play it on a SD CRT with a RGB Modded NES, You will have Lag on a HDTV regardless

SignOfZeta · 07/18/2016, 06:20 PM

"Fantastic" is in the eye of the beholder. A lot of people only know the hyper vivid atomically bright giant sized TV so that's what's normal to them and therefore the NES looks normal running on that to them. The excuses about not having room or being able to find a real TV are just things they make up to justify their stance. Those who still have CRTs prefer period accuracy and a cohesive vibe. I want my Genesis to match my TV. Quality is only part of it. I have a mint 19" PVM, but I also have a shitty badge engineered RF only 19" TV with a million hours on it and I'd rather use that than any of my big panels.

It's a hard bridge for either of us to cross. I imagine when the CRTs are scarce we'll all come over to the dark side of HD. The supply of CRTs is pretty fucking gigantic though so I probably won't live to see that. In 2016 people are still building guitar pedals with tubes from Nazi era Germany I think I'll be able to get a TV somewhere for the next 3-5 decades.

KnightWarrior · 07/18/2016, 06:49 PM

How about people like to play Lght Gun Games?

It's not possible on a Hi-Def NES

crazydean · 07/18/2016, 06:50 PM

Quote from: Johnpv on 07/17/2016, 09:17 PMWell you're wrong on this one. These older consoles can look fantastic on large TVs. Plus the HDMI mods that are available for these different consoles (really there's just 2) upscale the image to 1080p with no lag, and just as crisp and sharp as RGB. Hell the mods even include scanline options if that's your thing.

Plus you're future proofing your console. HDMI as a connector on TVs isn't going anywhere any time soon. The more consoles that can get HDMI mods that can do things that the HiDef NES and ULTRAHDMI can do the better IMHO.

I would bet that most people here would disagree with you. Everything from Atari 2600 to N64 looks better on a small screen. It's like taking a small picture then blowing it up to cover a wall. It's just wrong. Would you also say that VHS should be played through HDMI?

As for future-proof a console, CRTs can't even be sold because no one wants them. I can go on craigslist right now and get 20 of them for free. Even the PVMs and BVMs often last over 100,000 hours. Even if you played 8 hours a day, that's over 30 years! Also, scanlines isn't something I'm "into". It's how the image is supposed to look. Otherwise, they would output 480i.

At the end of the day, if you think that upscaling the shit out of an image and stretching it out make it look good, then that's what you should do. Just don't tell me that I'm wrong because I like it the way it was intended.

SignOfZeta · 07/18/2016, 07:11 PM

I have a VCR with HDMI out and, IMHO, it is indeed the way to watch that shitty format. I mainly use it to condition the signal from my LD player before it heads to my TV (a wide HD tube which also has HDMI).

However playback of video recorded with cameras and playing video games are in totally different worlds. Lag isn't an issue, for example, and blowing out all the detail with too much brightness is a much bigger problem with movies.

Johnpv · 07/19/2016, 09:38 AM

Quote from: KnightWarrior on 07/18/2016, 05:17 PMI'm not buying it at all, I would rather play it on a SD CRT with a RGB Modded NES, You will have Lag on a HDTV regardless

There are high end monitors with 0 lag. HDTVs with no lag are not that far off. Plus play however you want man. Nowhere in my response do I say playing on a crt is bad, or not to do it. All I said is that playing through an HDMI mod on a modern tv can look great too. You all react as if I told you to throw your CRTs out and jumped on how you want to play, when that's exactly what you've done to me.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 07/18/2016, 06:20 PM"Fantastic" is in the eye of the beholder. A lot of people only know the hyper vivid atomically bright giant sized TV so that's what's normal to them and therefore the NES looks normal running on that to them. The excuses about not having room or being able to find a real TV are just things they make up to justify their stance. Those who still have CRTs prefer period accuracy and a cohesive vibe. I want my Genesis to match my TV. Quality is only part of it. I have a mint 19" PVM, but I also have a shitty badge engineered RF only 19" TV with a million hours on it and I'd rather use that than any of my big panels.

A newer TV doesn't need to be "hyper vivid atomically bright" if it is then it's not calibrated correctly, and yes CRTs needed to be calibrated too. There's nothing made up about not having the room. Not everyone is living in a house, have you ever seen a NYC apartment? Shit is tiny.

That's fine man, if you prefer CRTs go for it, but don't shit on people who don't, and this whole thread is a big FUCK YOU if you don't play the way I like to. Some people prefer sharper images. What's the big deal? I didn't come in here saying CRTs suck and no one should play on them. I said hey man consoles over HDMI can look good too, and for me they can look fantastic on a big set.

QuoteIt's a hard bridge for either of us to cross. I imagine when the CRTs are scarce we'll all come over to the dark side of HD. The supply of CRTs is pretty fucking gigantic though so I probably won't live to see that. In 2016 people are still building guitar pedals with tubes from Nazi era Germany I think I'll be able to get a TV somewhere for the next 3-5 decades.

Yeah how big the supply of CRTs is, really depends on your area. I live in a really densely populated area (one of the most dense in the country) and gaming is big here. Looking around for PVMs, Consumer CRTs, or BVMs nets you a small handful with people charging a super high premium for them. Plus most of these sets won't last forever, and compared to a small vacuum tube, parts are not as easy to make for them. Hell one of the concerns is the fact that people who even know how to work on them are becoming fewer and fewer. Repairing a CRT isn't like repairing a guitar pedal with a vacuum tube, one of them can kill you if you don't know what you're doing.

Quote from: crazydean on 07/18/2016, 06:50 PMI would bet that most people here would disagree with you. Everything from Atari 2600 to N64 looks better on a small screen. It's like taking a small picture then blowing it up to cover a wall. It's just wrong. Would you also say that VHS should be played through HDMI?

Ohh yeah? So big screen CRTs make those games look worse too? Or is it just big screen flat panels? It's not exactly the same thing, thanks to built in chips on the mods, or upscallers like the framemeister the image is kept in its proper aspect ratio, and is just integer scalled. VHS are a little different but yes, the better connection you can make the better the final image is going to be. Upscalling a recorded image and upscalling a video game are two different beasts that require different ways of being handled. So you're kind of comparing Apples to Oranges with this.

QuoteAs for future-proof a console, CRTs can't even be sold because no one wants them. I can go on craigslist right now and get 20 of them for free. Even the PVMs and BVMs often last over 100,000 hours. Even if you played 8 hours a day, that's over 30 years! Also, scanlines isn't something I'm "into". It's how the image is supposed to look. Otherwise, they would output 480i.

Again this all depends on the area you are in. I load up craigslist in my area and there's 3 tiny PVMs that are beat to shit with terrible geometry and people want 250 - 350 for them. Plus very few decent CRTs show up without higher price tags. In my area people are hip to people wanting to play retro games on CRTs and PVMs/BVMs and the supply of them is almost run out so prices have JUMPED big time. Your last line isn't true at all by the way. I don't know where you hear or made that up from but that's not the case.

QuoteAt the end of the day, if you think that upscaling the shit out of an image and stretching it out make it look good, then that's what you should do. Just don't tell me that I'm wrong because I like it the way it was intended.

Two things, 1 upscalling done right doesn't stretch an image at all. It's maintained at its proper aspect ratio. Plus in cases like the HiDefNes it's not stretching or upscalling an image at all and creating the picture at the source just at a higher resolution. 2 I never said playing it the way you wanted to was wrong. I said this stuff can look good when done right on a modern tv. You're the ones jumping on me telling me what I like and how I like to play is wrong. So how about stop being a hypocrite with your shit.

NecroPhile · 07/19/2016, 10:50 AM

Someone saying 'it looks bad, get a CRT' is hardly them 'shitting on you' or saying 'fuck you' for playing over HDMI. Why do you care if anyone else agrees with you how stuff over HDMI looks? It's entirely subjective, for fucks sake.

Le wut?!? - It's 'not upscaling it's creating the picture at the source at a higher resolution'.

Johnpv · 07/19/2016, 11:27 AM

Quote from: guest on 07/19/2016, 10:50 AMSomeone saying 'it looks bad, get a CRT' is hardly them 'shitting on you' or saying 'fuck you' for playing over HDMI. Why do you care if anyone else agrees with you how stuff over HDMI looks? It's entirely subjective, for fucks sake.

Because the whole point of this thread was to shit on the way some people play. I said hey the stuff looks good that way too, and got multiple responses of DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY CRT IS BEST! I didn't ask anyone to agree with me, all I said was hey it can look good to. Which was preceded by a bunch of people telling me how I was wrong and only crts count. B

QuoteLe wut?!? - It's 'not upscaling it's creating the picture at the source at a higher resolution'.

I was speaking specifically about the hidefnes. I don't have the video at hand and maybe I misunderstood it, but I do believe the HiDefNes sits between the CPU and PPU and the motherboard, and instead of taking the images those create and then upscaling them, its take the control signals and creating its own image from that at a higher res. Maybe I misunderstood the video, but regardless the HiDefNES kit isn't creating any lag, whereas the framemeister does.

Gypsy · 07/19/2016, 11:30 AM

Just play how you want and dgaf about what random posters think.

CrackTiger · 07/19/2016, 12:10 PM

QuoteBecause the whole point of this thread was to shit on the way some people play.

You just don't know Knight Warrior. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body. But re-reading the opening post, you don't need to be familiar with the OP, as he wasn't being agressive like you and others are.

NecroPhile · 07/19/2016, 12:28 PM

Quote from: Johnpv on 07/19/2016, 11:27 AMBecause the whole point of this thread was to shit on the way some people play.

Again: saying "it looks bad, get a CRT" is not shitting on you.

The only one getting worked up and making things personal is you.

Quote from: Johnpv on 07/19/2016, 11:27 AMI said hey the stuff looks good that way too, and got multiple responses of DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY...

No you didn't, not even one.

Quote from: Johnpv on 07/19/2016, 11:27 AM.... CRT IS BEST!

But you did get this from people reiterating that they think CRT is better. It's okay if you disagree and prefer the "HD" look. Some people like scanlines and pixel blending (both undoubtedly considered by artists when they created their games) and some don't. Some care about light gun compatibility and some don't. Some care about TV size and weight and some don't. Who cares?

Quote from: Johnpv on 07/19/2016, 11:27 AMI was speaking specifically about the hidefnes. I don't have the video at hand and maybe I misunderstood it, but I do believe the HiDefNes sits between the CPU and PPU and the motherboard, and instead of taking the images those create and then upscaling them, its take the control signals and creating its own image from that at a higher res. Maybe I misunderstood the video, but regardless the HiDefNES kit isn't creating any lag, whereas the framemeister does.

NES games are programmed with art at only a single (low) resolution. Whether the signal is captured before or after the ppu doesn't matter; if it's displayed at anything other than the original resolution, it's been upscaled.

KnightWarrior · 07/19/2016, 12:29 PM

I'm not shitting on anybody

In my area in West Sacramento, i can't find a good TV for me, Well I see like Big TV's at the Goodwill..I want the Sony one, Me being don't drive..I have to get someone to drive a get it

Even though I have to get a 19' too heavy if I get a 27'

crazydean · 07/19/2016, 01:35 PM

Quote from: KnightWarrior on 07/19/2016, 12:29 PMI'm not shitting on anybody

In my area in West Sacramento, i can't find a good TV for me, Well I see like Big TV's at the Goodwill..I want the Sony one, Me being don't drive..I have to get someone to drive a get it

Even though I have to get a 19' too heavy if I get a 27'

19" feels perfect to me for 8 and 16-bit gaming. Of course, it depends on how close you want to sit.

CrackTiger · 07/19/2016, 02:02 PM

I love big crt screens and was lucky enough to a get a very nice 32" recently (for free). I have limited space myself, especially after downsizing from 3 rooms of my own to 1. But even if I had less space, I'd still build around a main cet like I did with my current small room. If space was so linited that I was forced to linit myself to an hdtv, then I wouldn't waste space on real hardware or games either.

ginoscope · 07/19/2016, 02:41 PM

I like having options so I got one of the high def nes kits and installed it myself. I made sure I can still use the rf/composite if I want to so it's not one or the other. It looks fantastic but I also have a crt so I can play however I feel like playing. The high def nes is not really future proof as it only goes to 1080p and before ya know it 4k will be the only HD screen you can get. The best solution is going RGB and then you can switch the scaler however ya like.

I do agree with OP that playing 8/16 bit systems on big screens is not for me. My hdtv is 24" and my CRT is 20".

Honestly it's up to the individual to play how they like so I could care less if someone wants to use RF. I personally like the look of old rgb arcade games.

Gypsy · 07/19/2016, 03:59 PM

To expand on my last post a little if people want to play on CRT that's fine, if people want one set-up on and LCD tv that's fine too. It's just preference.

I'm a CRT fan myself, and for gaming I use smaller (depends on your definition I guess, I usually go around 25-27'') CRT tvs mostly (bigger hi def tv for watching sports).

Medic_wheat · 07/19/2016, 06:37 PM

Quote from: guest on 07/19/2016, 02:02 PMI love big crt screens and was lucky enough to a get a very nice 32" recently (for free). I have limited space myself, especially after downsizing from 3 rooms of my own to 1. But even if I had less space, I'd still build around a main cet like I did with my current small room. If space was so linited that I was forced to linit myself to an hdtv, then I wouldn't waste space on real hardware or games either.

Shoot I have been picking up CRTs like the clap recently.

But the wife keeps making me out them on the curb where I found them. I had wanted to have a few spares to rotate in and out as the sets j have die or what have you but the wife isn't having any of my hoarding ways lol.

So for now I just have the most recent HD CRT I posted, a older CRT for the kids room with Mickey Mouse ear speakers and my PVM.

Gredler · 07/19/2016, 06:46 PM

I have a 27" Trinitron I keep in the garage as a backup to the 36" trinitron I picked up, both free and both locally in super populated san diego, I see CRTs for free all the time and have to resist breaking my back trying to lug them home.

You're not wrong about finding a repair guy, I would love to have my yolk adjusted, the screen degaussed, and the color tuned, but I can't find a local dude or lady to assist, so right now my geo and colors are a bit off, but still leaps and bounds better than my LCD and Plasma HDTVs

crazydean · 07/19/2016, 08:55 PM

Quote from: Gredler on 07/19/2016, 06:46 PMYou're not wrong about finding a repair guy, I would love to have my yolk adjusted, the screen degaussed, and the color tuned, but I can't find a local dude or lady to assist, so right now my geo and colors are a bit off, but still leaps and bounds better than my LCD and Plasma HDTVs

I can't help with the other issues, but you can get a cheap degaussing coil online.

Gredler · 07/19/2016, 09:11 PM

I've been thinking about buying a coil, but I think that's the least of this set's issues. The geometry issue is the most noticeable part - the top 20% of the image has a bend/arc to it. I've talked to steve in chat quite a bit about it, I just need to nut up and mess with it

Groover · 07/19/2016, 11:17 PM

I played with magnets on the TV when I was a kid. I remember learning to fix it but I would still be hesitant to try that today.

I also enjoy playing on my LCD with my XRGB mini using RGB. I would like a PVM someday I find one.

ClodBusted · 07/20/2016, 12:19 AM

I worked in a TV repair shop 10 years ago as a trainee for educational purposes.
Doing picture tuning wasn't very hard, most of it is done either via pots on older CRT TVs or via the hidden service menu on newer CRTs. I even went as far as doing repairs on my own Grundig CRT back then which had cold solder joints around the geometry circuits and thus went into self-protection cutoff if the picture got distorted too much.

If the source of the error isn't too complicated or right in the frigging digibox of a 100 Hz Sony CRT TV (they were a pain in the ass to repair) fixing CRTs is quite possible.

From what I experienced, Philips, Grundig (before the merger with Beko) and Loewe were quite nice to service, also since there was a good distribution network for spare parts and schematics in my area. Panasonic and Metz were also favored by my boss.

Sonys were fine as long there wasn't anything broken. If they're fine, hold onto them as long as you can.

Sharp CRT TVs had rather bad build quality. Cheap parts, bad soldering. My boss didn't liked them at all.

I'd avoid late 100 Hz Samsung CRT TVs. They tend to have been setup with dynamic contrast from the factory. So you never get a consistent brightness level out of them. There's no way to turn that annoying feature off in the service menu, sadly.

Gypsy · 07/20/2016, 09:40 AM

Quote from: guest on 07/20/2016, 12:19 AMI worked in a TV repair shop 10 years ago as a trainee for educational purposes.
Doing picture tuning wasn't very hard, most of it is done either via pots on older CRT TVs or via the hidden service menu on newer CRTs. I even went as far as doing repairs on my own Grundig CRT back then which had cold solder joints around the geometry circuits and thus went into self-protection cutoff if the picture got distorted too much.

Yep. I was able to get a newer Sony sorted out via the service menu within the last year. Very easy.

Quote from: guest on 07/20/2016, 12:19 AMI'd avoid late 100 Hz Samsung CRT TVs. They tend to have been setup with dynamic contrast from the factory. So you never get a consistent brightness level out of them. There's no way to turn that annoying feature off in the service menu, sadly.

Yikes.

ClodBusted · 07/20/2016, 10:26 AM

I've got one of these Samsungs, and it is really a tragic design. While the picture quality itself is nice, real flat tube, colors and all, to lessen the dynamic contrast you've got to dial the brightness and contrast down so much that darker content on the screen fades into black. Yuck. I also had to resolder the Scart sockets several times, since they are only held down by the solder joints, no other means of stress relief. Last year, one of the speakers had malfunctions. I didn't bother fixing that, since most of the time I've got the TV and other stuff hooked up to my Surround sound system anyway.

On the upside, it wworks with both PAL and NTSC signals.

Geometry correction preview in service mode works with that TV only via RF connection. My older Grundig was able to access and preview service menu options for any source signal attached to it.

Once I move, this piece of shit will be thrown out, and I'll check local ads for another CRT TV.