TG16 should have had 5 controller ports?

[HuMan]

Years ago I had a TG16, the lack of affordable games and CD hardware was a massive turnoff. At the time I stuck with TG16-centric communities and I often heard many complaints about it, like its needlessly large size, dumb back cover and the single controller port. Some said why not 2 controller ports? That never made sense to me since the system was always designed to use 1 controller port, then you add a multitap to get all 5 controllers.

To that end, I ask the PCEFX community here, should the oversized TG16 have had a multitap built in? If it had the original mini DIN connectors, there could easily be room for 5 controller ports on the front. Sure, it would have been more expensive, but imagine the marketing effort that would have been possible.

[NecroPhile]

No.  I don't think the additional manufacturing cost would've translated into greater sales, and the cost of a tap never bothered me anyway.

I'd rather they just made it smaller, hewing as close to the PCE's size as possible while still meeting whatever rf interference shielding requirements.

[CrackTiger]

This has been discussed many times and the best solution would have been for the TurboPad packed in to have a second controller port.

[HuMan]

Huh, never thought of daisy-chaining. Would that have worked? Like on the 3DO?

[esteban]

TG-16 is beautiful.

No need to slim it down (big is beautiful, especially in America).



I'm serious.

I have wide feet and have always been annoyed with the state of *no options*when it comes to footwear.

NEC was thinking of folks like me when they created the *curiously elongated* (read: WIDE) TG-16.

[SignOfZeta]

 The only reason multitaps exist is to generate revenue, usually more than what was made from the system. Therefore building one into the system just doesn't compute. For humans it does, but not for corporations. They're always trying to get that razor theory to work. Nintendo made a conscious decision to move the company towards multiplayer (local) gaming and realized that if you gave them the tap for free (N64) they are more likely to start buying more (high margin) controllers and 3rd parties were more likely to support a tap if everyone had it. Sega built four into the DC, but they laid it on real thick with VMUs and Maraccas and Twin Sticks and whatever.

What's amusing is that you could easily fit a PCE and a tap in the TG-16's dumb shell. If anything, less "should have been done". The TG-16 was the only 16 bit system that was completely redesigned for export. Has anyone managed to explain why? Given it's similarity in design and name to the Super Grafx it seems likely that the TG-16 was designed in Japan...I guess just based on the assumption that we like shit huge? Not inaccurate but also irrelevant, I would argue. Was this just NEC's normal need to design too many things?

[esteban]

Dumb American: You can't have as much ENERGY and RAW POWER as an SMS or Genesis in a PCE-sized console.

I SRSLY believe this was of great concern...tiny box of weakness.

[Otaking]

I think it would of been a very good idea to have five pad ports built in.
Would of given the console a unique angle as THE multiplayer console of the era.

[CrackTiger]

Huh, never thought of daisy-chaining. Would that have worked? Like on the 3DO?

There are already PC Engine controllers that do.

[HuMan]

The TG-16 was the only 16 bit system that was completely redesigned for export. Has anyone managed to explain why? Given it's similarity in design and name to the Super Grafx it seems likely that the TG-16 was designed in Japan...I guess just based on the assumption that we like shit huge? Not inaccurate but also irrelevant, I would argue. Was this just NEC's normal need to design too many things?

Here's why.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/225466/stalled_engine_the_turbografx16_.php?print=1

I didn't know there were PC Engine controllers capable of daisy-chaining.

[Gentlegamer]

The only reason multitaps exist is to generate revenue, usually more than what was made from the system. Therefore building one into the system just doesn't compute. For humans it does, but not for corporations. They're always trying to get that razor theory to work. Nintendo made a conscious decision to move the company towards multiplayer (local) gaming and realized that if you gave them the tap for free (N64) they are more likely to start buying more (high margin) controllers and 3rd parties were more likely to support a tap if everyone had it. Sega built four into the DC, but they laid it on real thick with VMUs and Maraccas and Twin Sticks and whatever.

What's amusing is that you could easily fit a PCE and a tap in the TG-16's dumb shell. If anything, less "should have been done". The TG-16 was the only 16 bit system that was completely redesigned for export. Has anyone managed to explain why? Given it's similarity in design and name to the Super Grafx it seems likely that the TG-16 was designed in Japan...I guess just based on the assumption that we like shit huge? Not inaccurate but also irrelevant, I would argue. Was this just NEC's normal need to design too many things?

And then they the made the Turbo Booster is large as the system itself.

[esteban]

TurboBooster + TG-16 = sexy. Fact.

[HuMan]

It's hard to top the original PC Engine with no add-ons though. It's so tiny!

[SignOfZeta]

The TG-16 was the only 16 bit system that was completely redesigned for export. Has anyone managed to explain why? Given it's similarity in design and name to the Super Grafx it seems likely that the TG-16 was designed in Japan...I guess just based on the assumption that we like shit huge? Not inaccurate but also irrelevant, I would argue. Was this just NEC's normal need to design too many things?

Here's why.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/225466/stalled_engine_the_turbografx16_.php?print=1

I didn't know there were PC Engine controllers capable of daisy-chaining.

Interesting. I hadn't read that article until now. It explains a lot, and with references, which is super uncommon for just about any TG-16 internal info. I guess in the end "NEC tries too hard" may be correct.

To be fair, the NES was even more redesigned and it was a huge hit, so maybe that's where they got the idea from.

[HuMan]

The reason why the TG16 failed is pretty much lined out right in the article. They wasted 2 years over-designing the TG16, they produced far too many units for the launch (750,000) leaving no money for promotion, they poorly chose games to localize, put too much trust in low budget American-developed games and effectively stunted the TurboGrafx CD / Turbo Duo launches due to all those previous errors.

[SignOfZeta]

My honest opinion is that the TG-16 was doomed inherently. There simply wasn't room for three systems in a country that thinks it's individualistic and wealthy but in reality extremely conformist and broke. The only point in having more than one system is to know who "we" and "they" are. Who's in and who's out. A third system does nothing to improve the dynamic, and Duos being $300 when a Genesis was $119 only hurts.

[HuMan]

The SNES wasn't out until Fall 1991, so the first 2 years of the TG16 was spent competing with the NES and Genesis, one of which was considered inferior and therefore not significant competition. NEC USA only had the Genesis to worry about and they were significantly outmatched by Michael Katz and Tom Kalinske, those guys were marketing geniuses.

There was plenty of time and opportunity to beat the Genesis and then compete with the SNES, it didn't have to be the 3rd wheel.

[SignOfZeta]

When the JP side moved almost entirely to a CD-ROM with huge emphasis on games that are expensive to translate and overall not supremely marketable to Americans (ie pervy stuff that talks too much) then what? Where is the software going to come from? Or do you think that Tokimeki Memorial would have done well against Yoshi's Island and Vectorman even though it requires a system that costs twice as much?

The software is the real issue. I really hesitate to blame/ credit "marketing" for things. "If only we could have tricked more people into buying it." doesn't do much for me.

[HuMan]

The software was there on HuCard, 2 years before the TG16 was finally released. It was a case of too little, too late. Sure, the TG16 launched at almost the same time as the Genesis, but given the PC Engine was already being sold 2 years earlier, such a delay was completely unnecessary.

Even if the software became less internationally-appealing as the years went on, had the TG16 been handled properly, it would have at least not been an embarrassing flop.

[elmer]

There was plenty of time and opportunity to beat the Genesis and then compete with the SNES, it didn't have to be the 3rd wheel.

There was very-little chance to battle against the SNES, with Nintendo's "smart" (i.e. predatory) business practices at the time ... but NEC might have stood a chance in America if everything wasn't handled so badly by NEC.

I worked for one of the few (3 or 4) North American developers for the TurboGrafx (although after they stopped), and the same company went on to develop games for the Genesis/SegaCD and had a good relationship with SOA.

I worked next to (and know) the guys that developed "Batman Returns" on the Sega CD (for good or bad) ... and visited SOA many times.

Their product sucked ... nice CPU, but everything else was a total PITA.

BUT ... they knew how to market stuff, how to choose the right games, and how to treat developers.

I don't like them ... but they played the game of business so much better than NEC that they're just in a totally different league.

Nintendo eventually out-played Sega, and so Sega fell apart ... but NEC (as the article mentions) hardly even rates a mention.

It doesn't matter to most folks ... but as a "retired-developer" when it comes to *choosing* how to spend my time and energy ... it's with the PCE, and not with the Genesis or the SNES.

"Marketing" and "Business" are absolutely crucial to how a product survives and is appreciated by the general public ... but true beauty is a bit more complex than "sales/popularity".

The PCE (IMHO) is a design of true beauty. I'm glad that there are still a (few) people that appreciate it.

[blueraven]

I think Zeta is right. NEC designed way too much shit.

Too many accessories and US folks were probably pissed off that they had to buy; a tap for an extra $30-40, another controller, another game if they bought China Warrior or JJ and Jeff, an AV Extension if they didn't want shitty video, and fuck-all if they had to save. On top of it all the console looks like a barbecue grill. If you have the full CD setup it looks kind of like a bulldozer. By the time you got the bulldozer you could spend an extra $200 and get the Duo (FINALLY!) with "trade-in". By that time, you're $500+ into hardware and the console had failed. Most people quit around step 2.

So , esteban I don't really share the love there.

And the artwork for most US games was pretty terrible. Whoever the idiot was that decided to "Americanize" the packaging was probably equally at fault for dooming the console. Bad design and marketing.

The PC engine was obviously far worse having a billion different versions and add-ons but at least they looked insanely cool for the most part.

EDIT: I should probably read that article someone quoted a page back.

[HuMan]

The PC engine was obviously far worse having a billion different versions and add-ons but at least they looked insanely cool for the most part.

EDIT: I should probably read that article someone quoted a page back.

For years, I never understood why there were so many different PC Engine consoles, then I read that Stalled Engine article, then it all made sense. NEC made money on hardware sales primarily, where Hudson Soft sold software and also got a small royalty on each console sold. That so clearly explains why NEC saw fit to release 9 million different PC Engines.

[crazydean]

They didn't need to put in 5 controller ports, but two would have been nice. In an age where online gaming doesn't exist, playing with a friend requires a second controller port. If you both have the same system, your friend could simply bring his controller over to your house. However, when the only way to get things is by asking your parents, you're more likely to ask for a game than a controller tap.

It's been said, but timing and release games were pretty bad. Had they released the console a year or two before Genesis, the Turbo would have been the clearly superior console over the NES and 7800. Also, the pack-in game was Keith Courage.

[NecroPhile]

When the JP side moved almost entirely to a CD-ROM with huge emphasis on games that are expensive to translate and overall not supremely marketable to Americans (ie pervy stuff that talks too much) then what? Where is the software going to come from? Or do you think that Tokimeki Memorial would have done well against Yoshi's Island and Vectorman even though it requires a system that costs twice as much?

This is circular logic, arguing that the Turbob could never have competed in the US because it didn't compete in the US.  Had it been better supported, it obviously would've had more games made for it, specifically games for the US market to compete with what was selling (like Vectorman being made in response to Donkey Kong Country).

[SignOfZeta]

...I don't know. Maybe, but by who? Sega and Nintendo both had pretty significant US presence by the time NEC US and its clueless team even got started working on games. I guess it's not completely impossible that, given the revenue streams, a NEC Avenue West could give us things like Sonic 3 or Uniracers but it seems like rather a stretch. Maybe something like Nintendo CDi titles but something actually good? Maybe. I wouldn't assume so. Sadly there is no way to know.

Btw, wasn't Hudson operating in the US at this time? What was their contribution? I honestly don't know the answers to these questions.

[esteban]

SINGLE CONTROLLER PORT: You guys will hate me, but I don't think a single controller port was a bad decision.

See, if NEC really thought that multi-player was going to be an important TG-16 feature, you have to create a situation where *a significant percentage of the installed base* literally *buys in* into 5-player concept...

(1) if TG-16 had two ports, it would have been "good enough" and very few folks would have experienced 3-5 player awesomeness of Bomberman (and sequel), Dungeon Explorer (and sequel)...now...maybe NEC/Hudson needed to make a bigger push for at least a *handful* of multiplayer games that were WORTHWHILE...but, honestly, only a few really good games a year would have been fine. NEC JAPAN actually messed up this opportunity because all sorts of wacky multiplayer taps were released (3-player!) when it should have simply been two choices (1) one player for the social pariah and (2) five-player.

REMEMBER...if a developer doesn't see HUGE INSTALLED BASE *WITH* 5-player tap, then developing a game for 2+ people is a dubious proposition (and risky).



TURBOBOOSTER: UNNECESSARY. The NES had composite FUCKING video and and mono RCA OUT. I don't care if lots of Americans didn't have TVs with composite input...BECAUSE NEC WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A FORWARD-THINKING COMPANY and had experience with consumer products in America. Most Americans had a VCR and used composite inputs on VCR for video games, video cameras, etc.

SO, no, I don't forgive NEC for this decision. NES proved you could do it right (TG-16 would be stereo, obviously, not mono like NES).

I had my NES hooked up to VCR, then VCR output to family stereo, by the way. SO, even our ancient RF TV had a relatively "modern" stereo VCR + old stereo (1960's receiver and speakers) = AWESOME experience, despite some old shite. Lots of frugal families did the same thing—we made things work, even if we couldn't afford "cutting edge" equipment "across the board"



(C) Damn, I'm starving. Time for dinner. I have too much in my brain. But this is the CRUX... I really don't think NEC could have been successful without a software library...and if you look at the first two years of games...DAMN, you realize that it was SLIM PICKINS, even for launch in 1989. I feel that the TG-16 would have FLOPPED HARDER if it was released in late-87 or late-88...

[GoldenWheels]

Seems to me 2 ports (pretty much the standard at that point) would have been a damn good idea....head to head play made even some of the worst sports titles back in the day playable and fun, and those sports titles were actually desirable games to some BITD (as opposed to the 'ick' face most make when seeing old sports games now).

I also tend to think, contrary to Esteban, that having two ports could have HELPED sell taps....say you get Bomberman, you play it with a buddy. It's insanely fun. Do you say "good enough" (yeah some will) or do you say "man I'd like to try this with 5 players now that I know two players is so fun, five must be insane".  It's like a multiplayer sampler.

[NecroPhile]

It has one port because the PCE has one port (to be as compact as possible).  They'd already wasted way too much time redesigning the case, so it's hard to argue that additional delays to redesign the hardware (system and tap) to include the second port would've been a wise move.

[Gentlegamer]

TurboBooster + TG-16 = sexy. Fact.

It has the same footprint as the XBAWKS HUEG.

[GoldenWheels]

It has one port because the PCE has one port (to be as compact as possible).  They'd already wasted way too much time redesigning the case, so it's hard to argue that additional delays to redesign the hardware (system and tap) to include the second port would've been a wise move.

Makes sense but it seems to me the second port should have been thought of at the same time as the case re-design. Two controller systems were the rule in America since....what, pong?

Even including a twin commander style controller woulda been an ok way to do it I think, but that's also some redesign work I suppose.

[TurboXray]

Years ago I had a TG16, the lack of affordable games and CD hardware was a massive turnoff. At the time I stuck with TG16-centric communities and I often heard many complaints about it, like its needlessly large size, dumb back cover and the single controller port. Some said why not 2 controller ports? That never made sense to me since the system was always designed to use 1 controller port, then you add a multitap to get all 5 controllers.

To that end, I ask the PCEFX community here, should the oversized TG16 have had a multitap built in? If it had the original mini DIN connectors, there could easily be room for 5 controller ports on the front. Sure, it would have been more expensive, but imagine the marketing effort that would have been possible.

Because of how the system was made, and how the TAP was designed, simply adding another port on the system would have really complicated things. And that would have meant incompatibility between JP and US products, most likely.

 The TAP itself is only made of a single GAL chip - not much logic. But I doubt they would have ate the cost and included it with every system, but they could've had possibly had a deluxe system package with two controllers, a tap, and a better packin game (or two). I dunno. Or maybe include a really cheap 2 port version of the tap with all systems? Japan had 3 port taps.

 Besides, look at their business model: want to upgrade the system? By these additional items; booster, booster+, 5 port TAP, arcade stick, CD rom, etc. They were taking the Japan business model and applying it to the US market.

[BigusSchmuck]

Wasn't there a mockup picture somewhere with the Turbo and 5 ports? Looked pretty ridiculous...

[esteban]

Wasn't there a mockup picture somewhere with the Turbo and 5 ports? Looked pretty ridiculous...

Yeah, someone was going to perform a mod?

[Alt-Nintega]

In a communist society you get one port 

I am Karl Marx and I approve of this message

[HuMan]

Because of how the system was made, and how the TAP was designed, simply adding another port on the system would have really complicated things. And that would have meant incompatibility between JP and US products, most likely.

 The TAP itself is only made of a single GAL chip - not much logic. But I doubt they would have ate the cost and included it with every system, but they could've had possibly had a deluxe system package with two controllers, a tap, and a better packin game (or two). I dunno. Or maybe include a really cheap 2 port version of the tap with all systems? Japan had 3 port taps.

 Besides, look at their business model: want to upgrade the system? By these additional items; booster, booster+, 5 port TAP, arcade stick, CD rom, etc. They were taking the Japan business model and applying it to the US market.

Maybe you intended to quote someone else, I don't think I ever suggested 2 built-in controller ports. I recognize the PC Engine was only ever designed to include one controller port.

Like someone said, daisy-chaining controllers would have been a fantastic idea, only downside is less revenue based on the Japanese business model. The problem is clearly, that model doesn't work very often in America. I for one haven't met many people willing to buy tons of accessories for a particular game console. To Americans, dividing everything up into additional products looks cheap and greedy.

While on the subject, Bonknuts, could the PC Engine support more than 5 controllers? Or is that the maximum?

[Arkhan Asylum]

Just stick a turbotap in the TG16 case and add some holes.  The fucker can fit in there probably.

but really, who cares.

 Buy another controller, and buy a turbotap.

then, buy 3 more controllers.

[TurboXray]

While on the subject, Bonknuts, could the PC Engine support more than 5 controllers? Or is that the maximum?

By connecting another TAP to a TAP? Technically yes, but practical - not really. The way the TAP works, you'd have to read the first TAP inputs five times for every entry on the second TAP. That would each up a bit of cpu resource. I mean, you could do it.. but it's really a waste to.

 Better to make a custom 10 port TAP. Yes, the PCE can handle it - but it's not exactly cpu resource free to manage something like 10 controllers or more.

[HuMan]

So what you're saying is... 10 player Bomberman really could have "worked" on PC Engine.

[TurboXray]

Yes.

[HuMan]

That is totally awesome.

For some strange reason I kind of want a TG16. I have an Everdrive so lack of games isn't a problem and there exist DIN to mini DIN adapters. What I don't understand is why the TG16 console has shot up so much in the past 6 years. They used to sell around $50, now it seems like they're as high as $150.

[esteban]

That is totally awesome.

For some strange reason I kind of want a TG16. I have an Everdrive so lack of games isn't a problem and there exist DIN to mini DIN adapters. What I don't understand is why the TG16 console has shot up so much in the past 6 years. They used to sell around $50, now it seems like they're as high as $150.

It is fun to own hardware, even if you don't need it.

I have fun cycling different consoles/systems every few weeks. It keeps things fresh and interesting, for me.

I have limited space, so I was forced to do this, anyway. But now I prefer it.



I am bad: I'll swap TG-16 out and put in PCE...or swap out a DUO and swap in a TG-CD.

[HuMan]

Oh definitely! I own both an original PC Engine (white) and a PCE Duo (black), even though only the Duo is truly necessary. If I found a cheap TG16, I'd pick one up for sure. I notice they almost never appear for sale anywhere. Have they truly become more rare? I guess the pool really has dried up lately. They used to be cheap and only somewhat hard to find, now it's a lot worse.

Oh well, the PC Engine (white) is already perfect. The TG16 is like a cousin that survived a car crash, barely.

[esteban]

Oh definitely! I own both an original PC Engine (white) and a PCE Duo (black), even though only the Duo is truly necessary. If I found a cheap TG16, I'd pick one up for sure. I notice they almost never appear for sale anywhere. Have they truly become more rare? I guess the pool really has dried up lately. They used to be cheap and only somewhat hard to find, now it's a lot worse.

Oh well, the PC Engine (white) is already perfect. The TG16 is like a cousin that survived a car crash, barely.

I don't think they are rare...I just think that folks are happy to sit on them with inflated prices. e.g. For years folks have tried to sell Keith Courage for more than _____ dollars. Sellers are just sitting on them. *Hoping* for some mystical payday.

[CrackTiger]

They aren't rare. Flippers just figured out how to milk collectards. It's bad enough when people try to gouge an "impossible to find!" game on eBay and there are a dozen copies up at any given time. It's on an entirely different level when there are over 100 TG-16's for sale on eBay at any given time.

[TheClash603]

That link earlier in this thread was a fantastic read, finally got around to finishing it.  750,000 TG16 show it was not rare, however the US CD systems are legitimately low manufacturing runs if the reliable quotes are to be believed.

I wasn't in control of NEC BITD, and hindsight is 20-20, but fuck man...

[blueraven]

That link earlier in this thread was a fantastic read, finally got around to finishing it.  750,000 TG16 show it was not rare, however the US CD systems are legitimately low manufacturing runs if the reliable quotes are to be believed.

I wasn't in control of NEC BITD, and hindsight is 20-20, but fuck man...

It's about time I actually read this article. I will do so after this post.

My only point earlier was that their marketing was a end-to-end fuckup in the united states. This was at a time when the industry was marketing to young gamers but had virtually no young people working for them. They were out of touch, and flying blind outside of Japan. And they obviously hired someone in their mid-40's to handle the US Market, who made the stupid decision to re-do all of the cover art...

I'm just going to rant about how bad the artwork was at every opportunity I get. Titles like Shockman and OOtG were the ones that jumped out at me from the shelf at Radio Shack and Toys R Us when I was younger, but all of the americanized versions of Japanese titles (Final Zone, Ordyne, etc.) just looked like shit in the box, and when you don't have access to gaming magazines you tend to make decisions on what you see. I know everyone here is the exception, ether being a bit older or having godly gaming knowledge at a young age

[HuMan]

I'll just be patient and watch for auctions, surely one will sell for the proper going rate. Even going by sold listings on eBay, the actual sale prices are far lower than BIN. You guys are right, most sellers are just sitting on these consoles, hoping they'll sell.

I'll also just re-post the article link so more people see it:

www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/225466/stalled_engine_the_turbografx16_.php?print=1

In the very same article that says NEC manufactured 750,000 TG16 consoles (or 735,000 according to a different NEC staff member), it's stated that between the launch of the TG16 and the official discontinuation of hardware and software sales, NEC USA and TTi failed to sell all 750,000 TG16 consoles, an unspecified quantity were shipped to various South American countries. The TG16 console appears a heck of a lot more often than the Turbo CD add-on, so they must have sold a decent portion of the original production run.

It is kinda funny to think that all TG16 consoles we know and love were all produced at the same time, at the TG16's launch, and never again after that. Does anyone know if the original white PC Engine had any additional production runs? Or did NEC Japan just produce one big batch and move onto yet another hardware variation?

[TheClash603]

Oddly enough there was at least two runs of TG CD units, because I had two different dates on my serial number stickers.  I have since gotten rid of the later dated system, but I recall they were a year apart.

[blueraven]

I have two white PC Engines that are slightly different, the serial numbers are far apart and inside they have some variation. I know that the older one was from the first run, and the newer one from the second run. They are also about a year apart from each other.

So at least two production runs for both the PCE and TG16...

Other than that I'm not a hardware expert by any means.

[KnightWarrior]

I think it's BS how NEC kept SFII in Japan, Street Fighter II CE was huge in the 90's --

He also attempted to get the existing PC Engine version of Street Fighter II released in the West, but "NEC just wasn't willing to put up the money at that point. Because they weren't seeing revenue from the TurboGrafx on the American side," Brandstetter says.