Pat & Ian video on TurboGrafx-16 Failure - What Could Have Saved It?

[crazydean]

I agree, Este. Techmoan is great and I have watched many of his videos.

[NE146]

I don't know much about NEC history, but I do know my experience as a consumer. I was a junior in college during the launch of the TG16 & Genesis, and ended up with both consoles. That was an awesome time as the SNES didn't come out until over a year later and it was friggin great going into the store when the TG16/Genny had such unique libraries, each with their "best" games.. and feeling I could take my pick of any of them.

I think it was obvious that the Turbografx started out really strong.. with great titles like Blazing Lazers and Legendary Axe. But that feeling very gradually started going away as my impression was it seemed they started getting less "aggressive" as the years went on..  You know how you get familiar with the local scene at the stores? Sometimes I felt like I was the only person checking out Turbo games at the local Electronics Boutique and Software Etc.  And while the Genesis library seemed to EVOLVE, with games that seemed to push the system more and more, the Turbografx seemed to fall in a rut of shovel titles like Boxyboy (which is a game I like today btw), and just more shmups.

Also it seemed to me to lose focus.. I was like "why are they putting out things like this Turboexpress???".. which I felt was way too expensive, just to play the same games I already played to death on the TV.  And when the Turbo CD came out, I had the same feeling.. that it was just way too pricey. I never fell out of love with the Turbografx.. I just packed it up under the bed and moved on as newer consoles came out. I would get the flyers from Johnny Turbo advertising the new Turbo Duo, etc. But by that point I had been there, done that. There didn't seem to be any new games.. so I pretty much ignored it.

Anyway the good news is I'm back into it again. 


As a side note.. this kind of shows how clueless I was.  I would go to Japan often in the 80's, and of course HAD to pick up Street Fighter 2 for the PC Engine since I had a converter for my TG16. I figured I would also pick up a 6 button controller, so I snagged a Hori controller. I happily flew home later, and popped my hucard  and the game started up great. I broke out the 6 button controller.. and realized it wouldn't plug into my Turbografx.. lol! That kind of information just wasn't available to me back then, that the controllers would have different inputs.. who knew. Anyway from that point, I never touched the game again, nor the 6 button controller for decades, to this day I've never played a good game of SF2 on a NEC console despite buying it at launch.. I pretty much have all of them pretty much NIB still. ah well, what a waste. ;p

[ClodBusted]

You should really get a controller adaptor.

[Psycho Punch]

NE146 you could have saved the turbografx... why didn't you bring a controller adapter!

[NE146]

I didn't know of such a thing at the time or rather, I simply never came across one in the early 90s

Anyway it's all water under the bridge.. as of a few weeks ago I now have a region hacked Turbo Duo (thanks mickcris) with an Everdrive. Everdrive allows me to play games easily, while Region Hack allows me to shove in any of my old games (I still have all of them) if I ever felt like it.

[NightWolve]

Never heard of this techmoan either, but if he has esteban's seal of approval, I'll look him up some time.

[LostFlunky]

I didn't know of such a thing at the time or rather, I simply never came across one in the early 90s

Anyway it's all water under the bridge.. as of a few weeks ago I now have a region hacked Turbo Duo (thanks mickcris) with an Everdrive. Everdrive allows me to play games easily, while Region Hack allows me to shove in any of my old games (I still have all of them) if I ever felt like it.

When are you going to set up your avatar?

[esteban]

I didn't know of such a thing at the time or rather, I simply never came across one in the early 90s

Anyway it's all water under the bridge.. as of a few weeks ago I now have a region hacked Turbo Duo (thanks mickcris) with an Everdrive. Everdrive allows me to play games easily, while Region Hack allows me to shove in any of my old games (I still have all of them) if I ever felt like it.

Well, to piggy-back off your experiences: I was a loyal TG16/TG-CD supporter (I didn't get TG-CD when it launched, but I bought a floor model after it spent 3-6+ months failing to generate too many additional sales at a local shop). 

Anyway, I wanted to buy the Super System Card ASAP when brochures were sent out.

I WAS DENIED EVERY TIME I CALLED.

I don't know what the issue was, but I was repeatedly told that "it wasn't available" or "not taking orders".... maybe I *was* too early, but I *never* did get that card.

I tried for months and months.

This, to me, was a colossal failure—I wanted to play the new games...I was *trying to give them my money* and hitting a brick wall. I never got a date for availability, or a clear explanation. 

I finally gave up. My consoles were at my parent's house. I was in an apt at college, new ways to spend money. New priorities (I still managed to waste away the money I budgeted for food at the arcade).

COMMON THEME:  We both were so close to having *FUN*, but held back by our ignorance. Even writing this post, I am annoyed. I wish it was "water under the bridge",  but I still can't figure out why I gave up. Eventually, my brother got a DUO...

[NE146]

Wow.. yeah that is annoying when you're trying to give them money to buy their product, and it simply isn't available.

And you're right.. it was exactly fun "lost".. I didn't really mention the point of my SF2 story but I was really disappointed and wondered why they had to make the controller ports incompatible. After all if you bought a import Super Famicom pad, you could use it on your SNES, but not so for the PC Engine.. They did everything in their power to basically separate the successful PC Engine world from the Turbografx (why??), down to the hardware compatibility.. and imho they were successful to their own detriment.

[Psycho Punch]

Racism had some blame on it IMO but I don't know if this was coming from the US at the Japanese products or the opposite. Maybe even both.

• There's no reason to make a soft lock that US developers had to implement to check against PC Engines,  especially when the inverse wasn't required.
• There's no reason to remake cover arts for the US market, especially when most of the replaced art was classier, gave the impression of a high budget game and didn't have anything inappropriate for the western market.
• There's no reason to doubt prospective western A-tier developers in their own game and shame them in the process... I firmly believe that if John Madden Football and other sports games from EA received ports for the Turbo the console would have fared better, it would have survived longer at least. And that's just for their sports games! Imagine their CD software being sold early in the Turbo's life! Even stuff like their 3D sims (LHX) might not have sold well but it would add numbers to the console. And that's just for EA.
• There's no reason for trying to sabotage TTi's operations constantly. I know Hudson was trying not to bleed money but they were a fairly competent company (much more than NEC) and they had a small niche that still bought their warez... too bad they didn't have full control of their own company. The infamous Mortal Kombat exchange, which was confirmed real a number of occasions, shows how much hudson was trying to suffocate their US PCE branch. I'm fairly sure MK1 would be a curiosity by now if it were a TGCD exclusive and people would only talk about MK2 onwards nowadays but still.

etc. etc.

[SignOfZeta]

Anyone who was involved in making sure Mortal Kombat didn't hit the TG-16 is invited to my house for Christmas. If it was Hudson, then good for them.

There actually is a reason for the lockout chip, it was to protect Japan from stuff like Games Express which ended up happening anyway. Keep in mind that piracy on the Famicom was a huge problem and Hudson had already lost tons of money from it. In the end of course all forms of copy protection fail but that was less understood at that time.

There is also no reason to not make a US cover art. You could theoretically make something more applicable or maybe even just better. However they seemed to be under the impression that ANY art, no matter how incredibly bad, was better than the JP stuff, even if it was incredibly good. That's just a dumb move. It has to be said though that bad cover art was hardly TG-16 exclusive. Even with games where there is nothing but text (Final Fantasy) or when it's Capcom with actual budgets and on-staff artists (Street Fighter II), it was still almost as hard to find good Americanized video game covers as it was to find an American kids cartoon with a strong female lead before the anime invasion. A lot has changed in 25 years.

[TR0N]

I didn't know of such a thing at the time or rather, I simply never came across one in the early 90s

Anyway it's all water under the bridge.. as of a few weeks ago I now have a region hacked Turbo Duo (thanks mickcris) with an Everdrive. Everdrive allows me to play games easily, while Region Hack allows me to shove in any of my old games (I still have all of them) if I ever felt like it.

Well, to piggy-back off your experiences: I was a loyal TG16/TG-CD supporter (I didn't get TG-CD when it launched, but I bought a floor model after it spent 3-6+ months failing to generate too many additional sales at a local shop). 

Anyway, I wanted to buy the Super System Card ASAP when brochures were sent out.

I WAS DENIED EVERY TIME I CALLED.

I don't know what the issue was, but I was repeatedly told that "it wasn't available" or "not taking orders".... maybe I *was* too early, but I *never* did get that card.

I tried for months and months.

This, to me, was a colossal failure—I wanted to play the new games...I was *trying to give them my money* and hitting a brick wall. I never got a date for availability, or a clear explanation. 

I finally gave up. My consoles were at my parent's house. I was in an apt at college, new ways to spend money. New priorities (I still managed to waste away the money I budgeted for food at the arcade).

COMMON THEME:  We both were so close to having *FUN*, but held back by our ignorance. Even writing this post, I am annoyed. I wish it was "water under the bridge",  but I still can't figure out why I gave up. Eventually, my brother got a DUO...

The super system card should have been sold at retail it never made sense for it be mail order only.

[NecroPhile]

I firmly believe that if John Madden Football and other sports games from EA received ports for the Turbo the console would have fared better, it would have survived longer at least.

There is a Madden port, and a pretty decent one at that, but nobody cared by the time it came out.

Mortal Kombat would've similarly been too little too late.  It would've been fantastically expensive to develop, and there's no way it would've stayed exclusive (Midway would've come out with a slightly improved "Championship Edition" for other platforms as soon as it started selling well), so they likely would've been better off localizing a couple dozen great PCE games for similar monies.

[geise]

Anyone who was involved in making sure Mortal Kombat didn't hit the TG-16 is invited to my house for Christmas.

[Psycho Punch]

I firmly believe that if John Madden Football and other sports games from EA received ports for the Turbo the console would have fared better, it would have survived longer at least.

There is a Madden port, and a pretty decent one at that, but nobody cared by the time it came out.

The Super CD Madden is excellent but I'm talking more about the turbo's first two years. No game would have mattered in the TTi era by itself... even if the game was a miracle mashup of Mario and Sonic or something. A HuCard version of the first Madden would have helped, esp. if the Turbo was the main development target and not just receiving a port.

Good point about Mortal Kombat though.

[LostFlunky]

I firmly believe that if John Madden Football and other sports games from EA received ports for the Turbo the console would have fared better, it would have survived longer at least.

There is a Madden port, and a pretty decent one at that, but nobody cared by the time it came out.

The Super CD Madden is excellent but I'm talking more about the turbo's first two years. No game would have mattered in the TTi era by itself... even if the game was a miracle mashup of Mario and Sonic or something. A HuCard version of the first Madden would have helped, esp. if the Turbo was the main development target and not just receiving a port.

Good point about Mortal Kombat though.

The problem with that is those sports games (Madden, NHL etc) didn't really have any popularity until the '93 series was released.  Sports games in 89/90 were no better on any other system than what was on the Turbob...

[NecroPhile]

The first Madden game (1990) sold 400,000 copies on the Genny.

[LostFlunky]

The first Madden game (1990) sold 400,000 copies on the Genny.

I am an idiot.

[GoldenWheels]

I hadn't seen this anywhere that I recall, And I had to dig the damn book ("High Score!") out to make sure my memory wasn't totally off.

Keith Courage hisself says if they had been able to cancel their order they'd perhaps have been better off.

[Psycho Punch]

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I want to believe.

[esteban]

/7A7W5ao.png

I want to believe.

Sweetness!

[pixeljunkie]

I think if TTi had pulled off what they were trying to do with the arcade card and other localizations it could've turned the system around. But ironically japan fucked it up.

Also, had to skip quite a few pages of this since it seemed to be mostly about the youtube guys. I always get amused when people pick sides and talk about these people making videos.

[cough] metal jesus sucks [cough]

[SignOfZeta]

The Arcade Card wasn't a success even on the Japan side. I don't see how making Duos cost even more would help. When the AC was released it cost about as much as a SNES...and you needed a $300 machine just to use it! As with Street Fighter II', the TG-16 was already dead by the time this shit was released. Everyone was amazed when it actually came out because we were sure we had seen the last of the PCE. Something released six or seven years into a system's life *probably* isn't going to be able to help it's chances very much.

The arc of the PCE's success in Japan starts out really high and then decays for a decade. For the TG-16 to have succeeded, for any system to succeed, it has to take root right away because after 6-7 years it's all over. The TG-16 would would only have caught on if it had been popular early on. Any possible success would have to have begun in the HuCARD era, just like it did in Japan, except I'd say the HuCARD era was much more important for the US because Americans didn't want to buy expensive ass CD stuff to play games on. Japan's success with CD required the older child-less gamers that currently rule the American market. We didn't have much of that yet so selling CD was much harder.

[esadajr]

...Japan's success with CD required the older child-less gamers that currently rule the American market. We didn't have much of that yet so selling CD was much harder.

Exactly, now that we have the "disposable" income, with all due respect (and I said with all due respect) the new stuff (4k, VR and all that crap) just isn't worth it.

[xcrement5x]

Please discuss:

[CrackTiger]

Why'd they waste time on either when the SNES was clearly superior? EGM even told us so each month.

[DragonmasterDan]

The Arcade Card wasn't a success even on the Japan side. I don't see how making Duos cost even more would help. When the AC was released it cost about as much as a SNES...and you needed a $300 machine just to use it! As with Street Fighter II', the TG-16 was already dead by the time this shit was released. Everyone was amazed when it actually came out because we were sure we had seen the last of the PCE. Something released six or seven years into a system's life *probably* isn't going to be able to help it's chances very much.

The arc of the PCE's success in Japan starts out really high and then decays for a decade. For the TG-16 to have succeeded, for any system to succeed, it has to take root right away because after 6-7 years it's all over. The TG-16 would would only have caught on if it had been popular early on. Any possible success would have to have begun in the HuCARD era, just like it did in Japan, except I'd say the HuCARD era was much more important for the US because Americans didn't want to buy expensive ass CD stuff to play games on. Japan's success with CD required the older child-less gamers that currently rule the American market. We didn't have much of that yet so selling CD was much harder.

Great answer.

More or less it had to do well out of the gate. The kind of game that would have been the killer app at that time might have been a port of the TMNT arcade game in 1989. It wasn't there, and the CD-ROM was too expensive for the North American video game market at the time, still mostly consisting of minors.

[Otaking]

edit: oops posted this video link in the wrong thread

[NE146]

Why'd they waste time on either when the SNES was clearly superior? EGM even told us so each month.

In the US the TG16 & Genny were released together in one summer.. but the SNES didn't come out until like two years later... which felt like an eternity. 

[CrackTiger]

Instead of Devil's/Alien Crush, R-Type, Dead Moon, Cotton, Magical Chase, Beyond Shadowgate, Godzilla, Dungeon Explorers, etc (I won't mention PCE games since they don't exist), these clowns chose Ghost Manor, Night Creatures, Addams Family and only included Splatterhouse to say how bad it is.

Isn't complaining about bonehead decisions with unbelieveable shock Pat's bread and butter? When will the "we're the only ones talking about this!" expose video about how Pat-knows-less-about-the-Turbo-than-a-google-search be uploaded?

[Gentlegamer]

these clowns chose Ghost Manor, Night Creatures, Addams Family and only included Splatterhouse to say how bad it is.

Do you not have Halloween in Canada?

[geise]

I never watch their shit.  I have better things to do like "play" my games when i have freetime.

[crazydean]

I never watch their shit.  I have better things to do like "play" my games when i have freetime.

Are you implying that there are other things to do with games besides talk about and buy them?

[majors]

Are you implying that there are other things to do with games besides talk about and buy them?

...bitch about rising prices and gougers.

[xcrement5x]

Are you implying that there are other things to do with games besides talk about and buy them?

...bitch about rising prices and gougers.

Oh, and don't forget in-depth analysis of the shrink wrap on them.