PCEWorks is back to making passable bootlegs and lots of them

[CrackTiger]

First there was yet another re-release of Sapphire without custom packaging, along with SFZ and Rockman, which both fooled enough people into paying thousands for. Now there are 5 more, with one game being sold for 120 Euros on its own.

Last time I checked, HappyConsoleGamer still had that PCEWorks ad up telling everyone that they're so great because "they don't make them look like the originals and would never do that".

The worst part is that even if I tried to make bootleg guides for all of them, collectards will still sell the known bootlegs to each other for hundreds of dollars as "the rarer second print versions".

[deubeul]

LIMITED PANTSU EDITION.
Seriously.

[Gypsy]

First there was yet another re-release of Sapphire without custom packaging, along with SFZ and Rockman, which both fooled enough people into paying thousands for. Now there are 5 more, with one game being sold for 120 Euros on its own.

Last time I checked, HappyConsoleGamer still had that PCEWorks ad up telling everyone that they're so great because "they don't make them look like the originals and would never do that".

The worst part is that even if I tried to make bootleg guides for all of them, collectards will still sell the known bootlegs to each other for hundreds of dollars as "the rarer second print versions".

Because it's not like rubber dildo LIED and originally claimed the Sapphires were legit or anything. Fuckfaces.

If I am remembering wrong someone can correct me, but I still dislike this shit either way.

[esteban]

Fuck me. We need someone who gets more than 19 views a video to help educate fellow video game enthusiasts (let's assume most potential buyers have sincere intentions...just for the sake of educating, not criticizing, folks).



I feel like making a PSA video, just for fun (because I feel motivated by this issue) but the reality is nobody will see it. But maybe we can ask Bucci, Redifer, CGM (jibbajabba?) et al. to spread the word.

SOMETIMES, I  worry that this effort might ultimately help Tobias sell MORE PRODUCT because too many people are indifferent about the issue... Or, sadly, too lazy to invest in learning about the issue to make an informed decision.

HOWEVER, it would be foolish not to try to educate folks. Otherwise, the HappyConsoleConsumers of YouTube will blindly promote Tobias.

[Gypsy]

Fuck me. We need someone who gets more than 19 views a video to help educate fellow video game enthusiasts (let's assume most potential buyers have sincere intentions...just for the sake of educating, not criticizing, folks).



I feel like making a PSA video, just for fun (because I feel motivated by this issue) but the reality is nobody will see it. But maybe we can ask Bucci, Redifer, CGM (jibbajabba?) et al. to spread the word.

SOMETIMES, I  worry that this effort might ultimately help Tobias sell MORE PRODUCT because too many people are indifferent about the issue... Or, sadly, too lazy to invest in learning about the issue to make an informed decision.

HOWEVER, it would be foolish not to try to educate folks. Otherwise, the HappyConsoleConsumers of YouTube will blindly promote Tobias.

I think this is a real issue. Of course Gamesack has a lot of reach, but if they talk about this, it will just draw even more attention to Tobias. For as many that will be outrage, there might be a multiple of that number that will just buy it because hurrdurr.

[SignOfZeta]

There are a lot of post-Napster collectards that don't really understand what "legit" means. Just as many comprehend but don't care. They want the most specialist rarer version and the legit game is just a boring single disc release with no energy drink. It's really hard to get through to these guys and explain that the version that just paid $300 for was made in the wrong continent decades after the game went permanently out of print.

Anyone who has ever spent a great deal of time pouring their creative soul into something and stuck with it through the boring and expensive stage of bringing it to mass production...you don't have to explain it to those guys and gals. They get it. It's the people who pretty much only...consume that are the issue. They just want more shit to buy forever and fake PCE games are as good at that as real ones. When the thing looks real they do not care because they don't know what "real" is.

So sadly I think you should get PCEFX shitlist favorite Pat the NES Punk to do a mini episode on it. I'm sure he's looking for topics/excuses to make more episodes anyway so I say give it a shot. He has lots of viewers and overall they are the ones that know what fake is.

[SignOfZeta]

 Btw, do you have any links to evidence or more info? I'm interested in this.

[elmer]

Fuck me. We need someone who gets more than 19 views a video to help educate fellow video game enthusiasts (let's assume most potential buyers have sincere intentions...just for the sake of educating, not criticizing, folks).

Educate people about what?

I don't think that this is going to be a popular sentiment, but I'm having a hard-time in maintaining my "outrage" in the face of the events here at PCEngineFX in the last year.

The general-consensus here seems to be that ignoring copyright and making personal copies of games by burning CDs or using a Turbo Everdrive is OK.

But, to keep the forum "legally clean", we're not supposed to put links to free digital downloads.

OTOH, we've now got a thread where "respected" forum members are charging money for unlicensed bootleg copies of HuCard games (breaking the same copyright law) and it's OK to put links to their site and ordering info, and people here seem to love them.

So the forum now seems to approve of bootlegged game production for money.

I understand that there is historical reason to dislike Tobias and PCEWorks (and recent-history at that with his release of translations), but IMHO, we've destroyed our standing to complain too-much about him by buying-and-selling-off old-stock of his CDs on this very forum.

We could still hold our heads up high when BlueBMW bought up Tobias's "flawed" Sapphire discs and gave them away for free ... but last year's selling ("to recoup costs") of the CDs showed that these days we're just complaining about the price, and not the bootlegging itself.

So, if the main complaint that's left is that Tobias charges more than people here think is fair for his "product", and that he's an absolute ass that has outright lied and tried to decieve people, and that he doesn't respect the wishes of translators ...

... then I suspect that it might be hard to find a YouTube "personality" to take up arms against him for a crusade that seems more "personal" than "moral-high-ground".

And, it's going to be hard to "educate fellow video game enthusiasts" as to why they should avoid clearly-marked bootlegged games, when we're all sitting there with cheap copies of his earlier CDs ... we'd just look like hypocrites.

[CrackTiger]

PCEWorks' "QUINTESSENTIAL BOOTLEGS" includes the latest revision to make his Sapphire counterfeit guide-proof:

https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/11/03/quintessential-works/



Akumajo Dracula X "raw" version (no unique packaging):

https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/11/02/akumajo-dracula-x/



Spriggan, Spriggan mkII, Steam Hearts, Nexzr, and Super Real Mahjong PII-III Custom Special, all without unique packaging or PCEWorks branding:

https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/12/18/xmas-double-feature/


Plus recent additions like Dungeon Master Theron's Quest, Bomberman, another batch of Kaze Kiri/Sylphia/Renny Blaster/Fausette Amour without unique packing.

And, it's going to be hard to "educate fellow video game enthusiasts" as to why they should avoid clearly-marked bootlegged games, when we're all sitting there with cheap copies of his earlier CDs ... we'd just look like hypocrites.

The whole point of this thread is that he's gone back to making repros as close as he can to the originals without any indication that they're counterfeit. This has led to at least hundreds of people to pay hundreds of dollars or more for what they believed to be authentic copies of Sapphire, to the point where they were found in Japanese shops. If he's going about it the same as before, then he's been selling these as legit across the internet for a while already.

The moral aspect of whether selling bootlegs of any kind is a parallel issue. The bootleg HuCards are not passable whatsoever and if they stopped tomorrow, they wouldn't be flipped as authentic for years afterward.

[jtucci31]

Those Dracula X bootlegs make no effort to look any different whatsoever. What the fuck. I'm so glad I already own a copy of the damn game, jesus christ.

I hate these things so much I haven't checked those FB groups in like months

[esteban]

And, it's going to be hard to "educate fellow video game enthusiasts" as to why they should avoid clearly-marked bootlegged games, when we're all sitting there with cheap copies of his earlier CDs ... we'd just look like hypocrites.

The whole point of this thread is that he's gone back to making repros as close as he can to the originals without any indication that they're counterfeit. This has led to at least hundreds of people to pay hundreds of dollars or more for what they believed to be authentic copies of Sapphire, to the point where they were found in Japanese shops. If he's going about it the same as before, then he's been selling these as legit across the internet for a while already.

The moral aspect of whether selling bootlegs of any kind is a parallel issue. The bootleg HuCards are not passable whatsoever and if they stopped tomorrow, they wouldn't be flipped as authentic for years afterward.

Indeed, there are multiple issues with PCEWorks that folks should be educated on:

(1) Profiteering. Leaving aside the ethics of "reproductions" (and regardless of whether they are clearly labeled/marketed as such) we can address profiteering. I believe there is a moral distinction between (a) a fan selling a modest number of reproductions (labeled and marketed as such) at modest profit (that is, slightly above cost of materials/shipping + labor) vs. (b) a larger-scale business making massive profit (above cost of materials/labor).

(2) Deception/authenticity of product. Passing off bootleg discs as (a) original items or (b) legitimate/sanctioned pressings. As we know, this is a problem not only for initial purchaser, but for all subsequent reselling/purchasing of product. I would argue that even "PCEWorks-branded" releases present a problem because they have an "air of authenticity" to them... this is easily solved if all items are clearly labeled and marketed as contemporary reproductions (non-sanctioned by IP holder) and are easily identified as such. 

(3) Intellectual Property. The ethics of non-profit and/or for-profit reproductions of intellectual property is an important issue, but does not have to be central to a critique of Tobias/PCEWorks. I listed 1&2 above in an attempt to find "common ground" with "everyone", despite their own views on reproducing/distributing intellectual property without permission.

[elmer]

The whole point of this thread is that he's gone back to making repros as close as he can to the originals without any indication that they're counterfeit. This has led to at least hundreds of people to pay hundreds of dollars or more for what they believed to be authentic copies of Sapphire, to the point where they were found in Japanese shops. If he's going about it the same as before, then he's been selling these as legit across the internet for a while already.

Oh, crap, that does sound like he's up to his bad-old-tricks again. 

Now, both his manual and the CD istelf *do* have PCEWorks logos, see ...

https://pceworks.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/sapphire_3.jpg

But you can't tell from the *outside* that they're fake.

Sounds like a scam to target the CIB-sealed collectards, to me.

Those Dracula X bootlegs make no effort to look any different whatsoever. What the fuck. I'm so glad I already own a copy of the damn game, jesus christ.

???

They come in a box that's totally-different to the normal PCE jewel-case, and they have a PCEWorks logo stamped on the CD ... how could any *careful* buyer mix them up?

[PunkCryborg]

Educate people about what?

I don't think that this is going to be a popular sentiment, but I'm having a hard-time in maintaining my "outrage" in the face of the events here at PCEngineFX in the last year.

The general-consensus here seems to be that ignoring copyright and making personal copies of games by burning CDs or using a Turbo Everdrive is OK.

But, to keep the forum "legally clean", we're not supposed to put links to free digital downloads.

OTOH, we've now got a thread where "respected" forum members are charging money for unlicensed bootleg copies of HuCard games (breaking the same copyright law) and it's OK to put links to their site and ordering info, and people here seem to love them.

So the forum now seems to approve of bootlegged game production for money.

I understand that there is historical reason to dislike Tobias and PCEWorks (and recent-history at that with his release of translations), but IMHO, we've destroyed our standing to complain too-much about him by buying-and-selling-off old-stock of his CDs on this very forum.

We could still hold our heads up high when BlueBMW bought up Tobias's "flawed" Sapphire discs and gave them away for free ... but last year's selling ("to recoup costs") of the CDs showed that these days we're just complaining about the price, and not the bootlegging itself.

So, if the main complaint that's left is that Tobias charges more than people here think is fair for his "product", and that he's an absolute ass that has outright lied and tried to decieve people, and that he doesn't respect the wishes of translators ...

... then I suspect that it might be hard to find a YouTube "personality" to take up arms against him for a crusade that seems more "personal" than "moral-high-ground".

And, it's going to be hard to "educate fellow video game enthusiasts" as to why they should avoid clearly-marked bootlegged games, when we're all sitting there with cheap copies of his earlier CDs ... we'd just look like hypocrites.

Nailed it. These issues have really turned me away from the NEC groups here and on FB. I just don't get how some people are deemed ok to bootleg while others are not and people get straight up flamed and shamed on here and facebook groups for picking the wrong bootleggers to support. It's all the same. Nobody has the right to reproduce any of this stuff more so than anyone else

[esteban]

Nailed it. These issues have really turned me away from the NEC groups here and on FB. I just don't get how some people are deemed ok to bootleg while others are not and people get straight up flamed and shamed on here and facebook groups for picking the wrong bootleggers to support. It's all the same. Nobody has the right to reproduce any of this stuff more so than anyone else

It took me some time to finish my prior post, but read it. I think I addressed elmer's (and your) point.

Hint: You're both wrong! Just kidding   I was trying to establish common ground amongst all of us, Elmer and you included.

[CrackTiger]

Oh, crap, that does sound like he's up to his bad-old-tricks again. 

Now, both his manual and the CD istelf *do* have PCEWorks logos, see ...

https://pceworks.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/sapphire_3.jpg

But you can't tell from the *outside* that they're fake.

Sounds like a scam to target the CIB-sealed collectards, to me.

I couldn't see those new brandings when I looked on my phone. It's not as bad, but most sellers I've seen on yahoo.jp now just use a stock photo and the other PCEWorks branded bootlegs with non-unique packaging are selling on eBay for the same price or more ("NEW sealed!") than real copies. Part of the problem is that he purposely came up with his latest company name and designed the logo to look like something that would have been on PCE games bitd. Not putting stuff like "2016 REPRO" on the outside as people like Sparky does is intentional to make them passable and more valuable to resellers. Having the PCEWorks branding on non-unique packaging has also created a third market of collectards who view them as rarer and more valuable than originals.

My main concern with Tobias' products in general is the intent and success for many years to pass off bootlegs as real. The problem with his overall success and the lesser appeal of the titles with unique packaging, is that it encourages him to continue mixing the secondary market full of bootlegs being sold as real copies.

My second biggest concern is his brazen publishing and selling of hacks/translations/misc homebrew projects without permission and against the wishes of the project teams. He is only going to get fan project members in legal trouble and has already discouraged people from continuing with various PCE projects. The bootleg HuCards are only being sold loaded with fan projects when they have the permission of those who made them.

There is a world of difference between what turbokon & friends are doing and what Tobias is doing and the long term damage which has already been done. Because of the many consequences of Tobias' actions for so many years now, the ethics of selling bootlegs is only one of many issues, although it is still the only one when it comes to those bootleg HuCards. Even when people argue that the HuCards should be cheaper, Tobias' pricing is still that much less "fair".

Those Dracula X bootlegs make no effort to look any different whatsoever. What the fuck. I'm so glad I already own a copy of the damn game, jesus christ.

???

They come in a box that's totally-different to the normal PCE jewel-case, and they have a PCEWorks logo stamped on the CD ... how could any *careful* buyer mix them up?

The new "raw" version looks just like an authentic sealed copy:

https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/11/02/akumajo-dracula-x/

[CGQuarterly]

While the guy certainly seems like a shitbag, I have absolutely no interest in doing some kind of "expose" video on his bullshit business.  The VAST majority of people who buy his shit know that it's fake and don't care because they're collectards.  For me or anyone else with "more reach" to make a video about him, no matter how negatively it paints him, will just serve to increase awareness of his products, and most-likely drive sales.  I also have no interest in inviting drama to my channel.  I have to deal with enough bullshit from the mouth-breathers of the world in the comments sections of my videos as it is.  ("YOU TALK ABOUT THE LAUNCH OF THE PLAYSTATION BUT DON'T EVEN MENTION FINAL FANTASY VII.  FUCKING KILL YOURSELF YOU COCK SUCKING FAGET.  STOP MAKING VIDEOS BECAUSE YOUR A FUCKING IDIOT.")

[esteban]

While the guy certainly seems like a shitbag, I have absolutely no interest in doing some kind of "expose" video on his bullshit business.  The VAST majority of people who buy his shit know that it's fake and don't care because they're collectards.  For me or anyone else with "more reach" to make a video about him, no matter how negatively it paints him, will just serve to increase awareness of his products, and most-likely drive sales.  I also have no interest in inviting drama to my channel.  I have to deal with enough bullshit from the mouth-breathers of the world in the comments sections of my videos as it is.  ("YOU TALK ABOUT THE LAUNCH OF THE PLAYSTATION BUT DON'T EVEN MENTION FINAL FANTASY VII.  FUCKING KILL YOURSELF YOU COCK SUCKING FAGET.  STOP MAKING VIDEOS BECAUSE YOUR A FUCKING IDIOT.")

Yeah, I hear you.

I guess, as far as a PSA is concerned, it is best to talk about the issue in general, without ever citing specific scoundrels (past or present).

Thanks for helping me! I know what I'm going to work on now (for fun).

[Gypsy]

While the guy certainly seems like a shitbag, I have absolutely no interest in doing some kind of "expose" video on his bullshit business.  The VAST majority of people who buy his shit know that it's fake and don't care because they're collectards.  For me or anyone else with "more reach" to make a video about him, no matter how negatively it paints him, will just serve to increase awareness of his products, and most-likely drive sales.  I also have no interest in inviting drama to my channel.  I have to deal with enough bullshit from the mouth-breathers of the world in the comments sections of my videos as it is.  ("YOU TALK ABOUT THE LAUNCH OF THE PLAYSTATION BUT DON'T EVEN MENTION FINAL FANTASY VII.  FUCKING KILL YOURSELF YOU COCK SUCKING FAGET.  STOP MAKING VIDEOS BECAUSE YOUR A FUCKING IDIOT.")

Keep in mind I know NOTHING about maintaining a successful youtube channel. You could disable comments, maybe that's a death sentence though.

Also that example real or not is hilarious.

[Arjak]

While I understand why Tobias is hated around here, and I know he has done some pretty selfish things, there is an issue that I would like to bring up here.

I live on a fairly modest monthly budget, and that makes it extremely difficult to justify buying Turbo games right now, because eBay sellers are charging obscene amounts for even common games. When I first entered the Turbo scene, a copy of Neutopia II was selling for about $100. Now that's what a copy of the first game is being listed at.

With that being the situation, there is no way I could buy a legit copy of games like Beyond Shadowgate, Dynastic Hero, or Dungeon Explorer II, and still feel comfortable about it. I could burn a CD-R, but we know that those are not great for the lasers in our systems, and frankly, look butt-ugly when the game's on the shelf between plays.

Tobias' repros are not cheap, but I can still get four games for less than the price of one (legit copy), and it's professionally pressed, printed, and looks like an actual product that I can feel happy to have on my shelf and in my CD drive. For the first time, I have a chance to actually feel like I "own" these games. That would never happen if I were left to the nonexistent mercies of eBay sellers.

Should Tobias try to make his repros look legit? No. Should he profit off of the homebrew community without permission? Of course not. However, I'd much rather deal with him than the eBay sellers. In fact, I'd argue that it's because of them that we have this situation in the first place. Tobias provides a service to people who want these games but cannot afford them, and I am happy to support that...up to a point. I won't be purchasing his unauthorized copies of fan translations or homebrews out of respect for those who make them.

Does that make me a selfish person? Yeah, probably, but if it means I can own and experience "rare games" like Dynastic Hero without breaking the bank or funding swindling resellers, I can live with that. Games are meant to be played, not bought and sold like stocks.

[elmer]

Indeed, there are multiple issues with PCEWorks that folks should be educated on:

(1) Profiteering. Leaving aside the ethics of "reproductions" (and regardless of whether they are clearly labeled/marketed as such) we can address profiteering. I believe there is a moral distinction between (a) a fan selling a modest number of reproductions (labeled and marketed as such) at modest profit (that is, slightly above cost of materials/shipping + labor) vs. (b) a larger-scale business making massive profit (above cost of materials/labor).

Yes, I do see the moral distinction there.

But when you're engaged in act (a), then I believe that you've lost all moral-authority to get up-in-arms about act (b).

I would say that that also applies to the community that supports act (a).

BTW ... where I'm from, "profiteering" is usually frowned-upon as the act of making excessive profits in times of shortage when something is *needed*, like food supplies in an emergency, or military items during a war.

A store that tripled the price of Twinkies because the factory had discontinued them would be seen as a bunch of assholes ... but it could also be considered as just a case of supply-vs-demand, or that horrible phrase "market forces".

As could the actions of a certain large company in creating an artifical-shortage of NES Classic Edition consoles in order to increase the hype surrounding them and to raise their profile in people's minds.

(2) Deception/authenticity of product. Passing off bootleg discs as (a) original items or (b) legitimate/sanctioned pressings. As we know, this is a problem not only for initial purchaser, but for all subsequent reselling/purchasing of product. I would argue that even "PCEWorks-branded" releases present a problem because they have an "air of authenticity" to them... this is easily solved if all items are clearly labeled and marketed as contemporary reproductions (non-sanctioned by IP holder) and are easily identified as such.

Tobias's latest trick of only putting his PCEWorks branding on the inside is definitely a lousy move, and is bound to lead to deceptive sellers passing them off as the real thing.

What's sad, is that if he is called on it, I can see him actually providing evidence to show that his customers actually asked him to make things look more "original" so that they can get little stiffies from staring at their shelves full of unplayed-games.

Now, if you choose to believe that his releases have an "air of authenticity", then I can only say "caveat emptor".

Back in the UK we had laws against deceptive advertising.

From what I can see here in America, those kind of protections are believed to be "socialist/evil".

(3) Intellectual Property. The ethics of non-profit and/or for-profit reproductions of intellectual property is an important issue, but does not have to be central to a critique of Tobias/PCEWorks. I listed 1&2 above in an attempt to find "common ground" with "everyone", despite their own views on reproducing/distributing intellectual property without permission.

OK, in order to find "common ground", I'll refrain from commenting about people who accept money for distributing intellectual-property that they don't own. 

[TurboXray]

While I understand why Tobias is hated around here, and I know he has done some pretty selfish things, there is an issue that I would like to bring up here.

I live on a fairly modest monthly budget, and that makes it extremely difficult to justify buying Turbo games right now, because eBay sellers are charging obscene amounts for even common games. When I first entered the Turbo scene, a copy of Neutopia II was selling for about $100. Now that's what a copy of the first game is being listed at.

With that being the situation, there is no way I could buy a legit copy of games like Beyond Shadowgate, Dynastic Hero, or Dungeon Explorer II, and still feel comfortable about it. I could burn a CD-R, but we know that those are not great for the lasers in our systems, and frankly, look butt-ugly when the game's on the shelf between plays.

Tobias' repros are not cheap, but I can still get four games for less than the price of one (legit copy), and it's professionally pressed, printed, and looks like an actual product that I can feel happy to have on my shelf and in my CD drive. For the first time, I have a chance to actually feel like I "own" these games. That would never happen if I were left to the nonexistent mercies of eBay sellers.

Should Tobias try to make his repros look legit? No. Should he profit off of the homebrew community without permission? Of course not. However, I'd much rather deal with him than the eBay sellers. In fact, I'd argue that it's because of them that we have this situation in the first place. Tobias provides a service to people who want these games but cannot afford them, and I am happy to support that...up to a point. I won't be purchasing his unauthorized copies of fan translations or homebrews out of respect for those who make them.

Does that make me a selfish person? Yeah, probably, but if it means I can own and experience "rare games" like Dynastic Hero without breaking the bank or funding swindling resellers, I can live with that. Games are meant to be played, not bought and sold like stocks.

I'm not attacking you personally, but I think your perspective (because you gave an example) should be put into context. So.. don't take this personally. (Also, please read the following in Laurence Fishburne's voice. Thanks).

 1) What right do you have to anything? I mean, complaining that you can't afford this or that, when it isn't a matter of life or death, or even the difference between eating unhealthy junk food vs eating healthy (i.e. more expensive), or not having the income to move out of the ghetto <- better quality of life by being safer. You're talking about physically owning games, to play on your old relic of a system. You have no inherent right to that. And in context, you have every opportunity to play or "own" any of these games via emulation, CD-R, or flashcard. So this whole, "I can't afford it" thing seems petty, especially knowing how expensive these systems are to collect for -> this isn't some surprise to you. Even if you did buy the game from PCEWORKS, it's not the original. It's still a fantasy of owning the original, which really isn't any different than CD-Rs, flashcard, or emulation. It's fantasy shelf candy.

 Don't get me wrong. From a human-science perspective, I understand the experience with the relationship of owning a physical copy of the game. I understand that the experience of the game is more than just the controller and interaction with the game logic; it's the feel of the real controller, the sounds of the CD drive seeking, the act of taking the game out of its case, parsing through the manual, and placing it in the system - the physical affirmation of the system sitting in front of you; the aesthetics. All of it. But it's still a choice, not a right or something owed. And you have other options that aren't preventing you from playing any of these games - only your own view that's preventing you from enjoying them via other options.

Should Tobias try to make his repros look legit? No. Should he profit off of the homebrew community without permission? Of course not. However, I'd much rather deal with him than the eBay sellers.

Before I continue, you might say - "But hey Mr. Bnuts, you see it differently because you're directly affected by this". I've come to terms with all of this. And..  I don't give a shit about him anymore, relation to anything I've worked on. I've reconciled it, internally. But.. this quote right here - what exactly are you saying? I'll tell you what I see...

 2) You feel bad that Tobias cheats people with deception, and you feel bad that he rips off homebrewers.. but none of that compares to the evil of having to deal with ebay sellers of the real products??? Do you realize the absurdity of that statement? I know you're trying to rationalize it with the minimal amount of guilt or feeling shitty about it, but in the end you pretty much just said, "I feel a little bad about what he's doing, but not bad enough to not to support Tobias". Your nod to the opposition is just that - for show. And that's what it boils down to for you. And if that's how you feel, then just say it. Don't shift the blame on ebay sellers. That's ridiculous. No one is forcing you to do anything - you made a choice. Own it. Don't squirm around it because it make your conscience feel better.

Does that make me a selfish person? Yeah, probably, but if it means I can own and experience "rare games" like Dynastic Hero without breaking the bank or funding swindling resellers, I can live with that. Games are meant to be played, not bought and sold like stocks.

Emulation destroys this whole argument. You DO have the games available to you. This means you have choices. Does it make you selfish? It think it makes you self-righteous; you think you're owed something, that you have an inherent the right to something or some game.. for whatever your justification is. But you're not owed anything in relation to this system. Buying his items isn't just a decision on the morals and ethics of him profiting on someone else's work (Capcom, NEC, whoever) - it's the fact that when you purchase something from this specific man, you're not only supporting what he does, you're elevating/promoting what he represents. Fraud, deception, robbing from the very community that gave it something special. You need to own that too.

Recap: I'm not saying don't buy from him. I'm saying that if you make that choice, you need to own it for what it is - and not justify it with bullshit, to make your conscience feel better.

[CrackTiger]

I'm not pro-repro/bootlegs/etc and don't think that selling one type of bootleg is fine while selling a similar type is absolutely wrong. But it's not a singlular issue with only two sides to be on.

Many published PC Engine homebrew games have various copyrighted logos on them which are used without permission. This site has ads and uses various copyrighted media without permission and once sold Turbo goods. I don't think that it is exactly the same as selling PCEWorks games, but if you believe that making money from using someone else's intellectual property without permission is stealing, then it all is. Technically, buying and selling used games is robbing publishers, especially today with all of the scalping going on.

I don't think that many people here think that any kind of bootlegging is fine, but you also can't really be involved in anything related to old games today without supporting some form of copyright infringement. The PRGE had bootlegs sold at most booths which were selling games. Many tables were for businesses which only sold bootlegs. One asshole was selling only bootleg Everdrives, without even changing the name. He probably just bought those crappy Chinese knock-offs in bulk and put his ugly labels on them.

I still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.

[Psycho Punch]

No company can make any significant amount of money with their old IPs anymore with PCE reprints. They don't make money on any of their old copies being sold around on ebay either. Yes it is their intellectual property but bootlegs aren't directly competing with them or causing significant revenue loss (I don't agree too much with copyright laws too, I think they need some reforms but that's for another time...). I support bootlegging (aka REPRODUCTIONS for people who don't like to admit it), with some caveats...

First of all, I believe that a bootleg must clearly be marked as such since doing a perfect copy of a disc and its packaging makes defrauding someone wanting ORIGINAL, made-in-japan 1980-90 pressings of games very easy. Considering that games are significant cultural items I think that doing that is bullshit on all levels.

Secondly, and this is something that people might not agree with, the bootleg musn't be sold for a premium! The morality of a pirate operation goes up with the price. If sold at cost, it's not really a problem, if sold between cost and original MSRP, it's nothing to complain about because you have cost overheads and a reasonable amount of profit isn't all that bad, but if done with prices approaching the expensive original copies then it reeks of pure greed and I'm definitely not ok with it. Reminder that I'm talking about games in formats/platforms that are abandoned and not likely to be touched again by the original IP owners. Worse if includes collector's trinkets to justify an unfair price.


I think tobias sucks and that he can shove his LOVE OF IT up his ass. He violated the first point to be able to scam people HIMSELF at first (sapphire with faked hudson soft letter), then started doing clearly marked repros to soften the backlash (and at-cost copies to shut up PCEFX about it), waiting for calm waters again to repeat what he did with sapphire, only this time he'll sell undistinguishable booties to people who will most likely scam people knowingly. I'm willing to bet he did that to be able to transfer the blame to his consumers while scamming people himself on ebay and forums with puppet accounts. Not a stretch considering his hudson letter stunt.

It's also very obvious that he repeatedly violates the second point I've made and since everyone knows what he has done for the past few years I'll just post a pic of a christmas special product he's selling... hmm let's branch for the weeaboo collectard market for the money love of it!!!!!!!




tl:dr -- quit being lazy and read everything... FOR THE LOVE OF IT!!!

[Psycho Punch]

Double post: I just read that the Mahjong Blablabla Special box will have panties of random color and "there's no way of telling the color from the outside, so don't ask us."

If you think that this is the same as the pre-flashed hucard booties being sold here then I really don't know what to say.

[Gypsy]

I'm not pro-repro/bootlegs/etc and don't think that selling one type of bootleg is fine while selling a similar type is absolutely wrong. But it's not a singlular issue with only two sides to be on.

Many published PC Engine homebrew games have various copyrighted logos on them which are used without permission. This site has ads and uses various copyrighted media without permission and once sold Turbo goods. I don't think that it is exactly the same as selling PCEWorks games, but if you believe that making money from using someone else's intellectual property without permission is stealing, then it all is. Technically, buying and selling used games is robbing publishers, especially today with all of the scalping going on.

I don't think that many people here think that any kind of bootlegging is fine, but you also can't really be involved in anything related to old games today without supporting some form of copyright infringement. The PRGE had bootlegs sold at most booths which were selling games. Many tables were for businesses which only sold bootlegs. One asshole was selling only bootleg Everdrives, without even changing the name. He probably just bought those crappy Chinese knock-offs in bulk and put his ugly labels on them.

I still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.

And this is much appreciated, at least by me even if I rarely buy sealed games (which seems to be the main way these deceive). Thanks for the heads up.

[Psycho Punch]

I still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.

And this is much appreciated, at least by me even if I rarely buy sealed games (which seems to be the main way these deceive). Thanks for the heads up.

People will sell the bootlegs at the same or at a higher price, that's the whole point of it, sealed, unsealed, loose. If they're doing that with stupid boxsets and still in print homebrews, I don't think this will change with unmarked repros. You sure about that appreciation of yours?

[Gypsy]

I still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.

And this is much appreciated, at least by me even if I rarely buy sealed games (which seems to be the main way these deceive). Thanks for the heads up.

People will sell the bootlegs at the same or at a higher price, that's the whole point of it, sealed, unsealed, loose. If they're doing that with stupid boxsets and still in print homebrews, I don't think this will change with unmarked repros. You sure about that appreciation of yours?

I think you misunderstood. I don't want repros. Ever. So I'm glad for the heads up that some slightly more deceptive ones exist. If it's an open copy, I'll be able to tell and not buy it.

[shubibiman]

"Pantsu edition". Tobias is a shitbag, but he's very creative ! WTHF !

[ClodBusted]

Some PCE games are still available as downloads (Virtual console, etc.), so there's still some money to loose for the copyright holders.

As I said before once or twice, I don't want anything touched by Tobias, even if it comes for free.

[CGQuarterly]

Also that example real or not is hilarious.

That isn't a quote of a single comment, but rather a pastiche of two or three of them.  The vast majority of the people who comment on my videos are awesome, but there are also a few people who need to pull a plastic bag over their head and go to sleep.

[TheClash603]

I had a friend that was selling bootleg football jerseys for $40 a pop and he got a cease and desist letter from the NFL.  He only sold about 100 before the letter came, but it scared him to stopping really quick.

I looked at the link to Raw Dracula X, pretty sure Konami would have an issue with it, since they still sell this game in newer formats.  I am not a snitch and I don't have the time or care to contact Konami, but I image that would be the quick way to have this stopped.  One off eBay sales could still happen, but not largely advertised professional looking website sales.  Just my suggestion to those who may be legitimately upset over this.

[sirhcman]

I don't think that this is going to be a popular sentiment, but I'm having a hard-time in maintaining my "outrage" in the face of the events here at PCEngineFX in the last year.

I am 100% in agreement with everything you said elmer!

[JoshTurboTrollX]

Fuck me. We need someone who gets more than 19 views a video to help educate fellow video game enthusiasts

Hey NOW!!!

[ClodBusted]

There are big Youtube channels discussing ridiculous toy bootlegs to educate the masses (and for having a cheap laugh). Why not for once discussing bootleg video games?

How could there seriously be anybody afraid? I also don't get the thing about "giving bootleggers more PR". Those who WANT bootlegs will get them anyway, but others who would like to avoid filling the money hungry mouths of gougers by buying fakes need information in first place.

[elmer]

The whole point of this thread is that he's gone back to making repros as close as he can to the originals without any indication that they're counterfeit. This has led to at least hundreds of people to pay hundreds of dollars or more for what they believed to be authentic copies of Sapphire, to the point where they were found in Japanese shops. If he's going about it the same as before, then he's been selling these as legit across the internet for a while already.

PCEWorks' "QUINTESSENTIAL BOOTLEGS" includes the latest revision to make his Sapphire counterfeit guide-proof:

https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/11/03/quintessential-works/

Akumajo Dracula X "raw" version (no unique packaging):

https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/11/02/akumajo-dracula-x/

Spriggan, Spriggan mkII, Steam Hearts, Nexzr, and Super Real Mahjong PII-III Custom Special, all without unique packaging or PCEWorks branding:

https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/12/18/xmas-double-feature/

...

I still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.

If you actually take a look at the screenshots of the CDs and the back of the manuals in *all* of those new packages, they *all* have a PCEWorks logo on them that distinguishes them from the original games.

He's made the *outside* look just like the originals, which is a lousy move, but the games can be distinguished from the originals by opening up the jewel case and looking at the CD.

As I said earlier ... "caveat emptor".

The moral aspect of whether selling bootlegs of any kind is a parallel issue. The bootleg HuCards are not passable whatsoever and if they stopped tomorrow, they wouldn't be flipped as authentic for years afterward.

OK, again, ignoring the moral issue of bootlegging for the moment ... his new-production CDs can't be sold as authentic, either, if you to open up the jewel case and look at the face of the CD.

I thought that this forum was for game-players and looked down on sealed-in-box collectards???

Many published PC Engine homebrew games have various copyrighted logos on them which are used without permission. This site has ads and uses various copyrighted media without permission and once sold Turbo goods. I don't think that it is exactly the same as selling PCEWorks games, but if you believe that making money from using someone else's intellectual property without permission is stealing, then it all is.
Technically, buying and selling used games is robbing publishers, especially today with all of the scalping going on.

Huh? Now you're taking your argument a bit too far.

There are various laws in place for "fair-use" of certain items, and legitimately-produced games come under the doctrine of "first-sale".

Publishers already price-in the effect of second-hand sales of legitimate games into their pricing model.

People using Hudson or NECs trademarked logos, or their CD boot code that's on every homebrew CD, *is* a "naughty", and the owners of those trademarks/code could legally stop the homebrew folks any thime that they wished to do so.

I don't think that many people here think that any kind of bootlegging is fine, but you also can't really be involved in anything related to old games today without supporting some form of copyright infringement. The PRGE had bootlegs sold at most booths which were selling games. Many tables were for businesses which only sold bootlegs. One asshole was selling only bootleg Everdrives, without even changing the name. He probably just bought those crappy Chinese knock-offs in bulk and put his ugly labels on them.

So we're in a video-game world where bootleg production of old out-of-print games has become "normal".

This is my point ... I don't like it, I don't support it, but I have a hard time feeling much "outrage" anymore when it *is* obviously supported by so many folks here.

If the original copyright owners don't care enough to send out a C&D, then what is my standing to try to fight their battle for them?

Remember ... Konami *was* informed about the PCEWorks release of DraculaX, and basically just said "cool" and then did nothing to stop Tobias.

[_Paul]

Someone should send a letter to Konami asking for the permission to repro their old games without paying them royalties. Just to see what happens.

[sirhcman]

Someone should send a letter to Konami asking for the permission to repro their old games without paying them royalties. Just to see what happens.

Go ahead.

[Arjak]

1) What right do you have to anything? I mean, complaining that you can't afford this or that, when it isn't a matter of life or death, or even the difference between eating unhealthy junk food vs eating healthy (i.e. more expensive), or not having the income to move out of the ghetto <- better quality of life by being safer. You're talking about physically owning games, to play on your old relic of a system. You have no inherent right to that. And in context, you have every opportunity to play or "own" any of these games via emulation, CD-R, or flashcard. So this whole, "I can't afford it" thing seems petty, especially knowing how expensive these systems are to collect for -> this isn't some surprise to you. Even if you did buy the game from PCEWORKS, it's not the original. It's still a fantasy of owning the original, which really isn't any different than CD-Rs, flashcard, or emulation. It's fantasy shelf candy.

I never claimed that owning these games was my right. It is indeed a "want" and not a "need." I could indeed just burn a game to one of my Taiyo-Yuden CD-Rs, and in all honesty, I should. The problem is, as you yourself put it...

Don't get me wrong. From a human-science perspective, I understand the experience with the relationship of owning a physical copy of the game. I understand that the experience of the game is more than just the controller and interaction with the game logic; it's the feel of the real controller, the sounds of the CD drive seeking, the act of taking the game out of its case, parsing through the manual, and placing it in the system - the physical affirmation of the system sitting in front of you; the aesthetics. All of it. But it's still a choice, not a right or something owed. And you have other options that aren't preventing you from playing any of these games - only your own view that's preventing you from enjoying them via other options.

Maybe it's because I have a bit of "collectard" in me, but I have a fascination with high quality game repros. They give me the same thrill I get from buying a new game; to be able to read through an elaborate manual, to put an actual cart or CD in my system; it's just not the same with emulation.

You are correct though, it is just an illusion, but for me, as a classic gamer, it's a very powerful one.

2) You feel bad that Tobias cheats people with deception, and you feel bad that he rips off homebrewers.. but none of that compares to the evil of having to deal with ebay sellers of the real products??? Do you realize the absurdity of that statement? I know you're trying to rationalize it with the minimal amount of guilt or feeling shitty about it, but in the end you pretty much just said, "I feel a little bad about what he's doing, but not bad enough to not to support Tobias". Your nod to the opposition is just that - for show. And that's what it boils down to for you. And if that's how you feel, then just say it. Don't shift the blame on ebay sellers. That's ridiculous. No one is forcing you to do anything - you made a choice. Own it. Don't squirm around it because it make your conscience feel better.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold up there. I really do feel that eBay sellers are a major factor in why we have this situation to begin with. They are the ones who jack up the prices for original games, giving Tobias a reason to make these bootlegs in the first place. They are the majority of the ones trying to pass off these bootlegs as real to make a quick payday. They are likely the ones getting Tobias to make 1:1 replicas of the original packaging. I am pretty sure that they are part of the problem.

But...

Buying his items isn't just a decision on the morals and ethics of him profiting on someone else's work (Capcom, NEC, whoever) - it's the fact that when you purchase something from this specific man, you're not only supporting what he does, you're elevating/promoting what he represents. Fraud, deception, robbing from the very community that gave it something special. You need to own that too.

When it comes down to it, this is the real issue here, and you're right. I am putting my selfishness ahead of the community's interests, and that's not fair to you guys.

You've changed my mind, Bonknuts. I will not buy any more of Tobias' bootlegs. I'll burn Taiyo-Yuden CD-Rs instead. I need to own up to what I'm doing and not make excuses.

[elmer]

Someone should send a letter to Konami asking for the permission to repro their old games without paying them royalties. Just to see what happens.

That would be hilarious, I'd love to see a copy of the letter that they got back! 

It *might* be enough to wake the beast to the point where some C&Ds finally get sent out ... but probably not.

[TurboXray]

Arjak: My point wasn't to change your mind. I personally hold no ill will to anyone who buys stuff from him. My point is; just understand the implications of your choices - in relation to this guy. That's all. Don't sugar coat it or bullshit justifications to make yourself feel better. I'm human. I understand that sometimes "want" outweighs or overrides morality and ethics; I'm not perfect. You think I don't find the packaging and such he has setup/made as desirable? All bullshit aside, I think it's cool and I do wish I had them. But for him specifically, I know what that choice of buying from him means. And that's a choice I can't own.

[sirhcman]

Someone should send a letter to Konami asking for the permission to repro their old games without paying them royalties. Just to see what happens.

That would be hilarious, I'd love to see a copy of the letter that they got back! 

It *might* be enough to get the wake the beast to the point where some C&Ds finally get sent out ... but probably not.

Unless tobias is making a Dracula X pachinko machine I don't think he has anything to worry about.

[CGQuarterly]

I'm actually more pissed that some fag was selling bootleg Everdrives at PRGE than I am about Tobias.  Anyone who buys his shit knows they're buying bootlegs (unless they're retarded).

[Gypsy]

I'm actually more pissed that some fag was selling bootleg Everdrives at PRGE than I am about Tobias.  Anyone who buys his shit knows they're buying bootlegs (unless they're retarded). 

Bootleg everdrives? Ive never heard of this... Did they at least come with an energy drink?

No that would cost extra.

[SamIAm]

For me, any thinking about Tobias has to start with the repeating of two facts.
1) He once sold fake Sapphires as authentic copies in an undeniable act of fraud.
2) He has repeatedly used community projects without permission or acknowledgement of the sources.

Maybe we're only rationalizing when we go in for Everdrives and whatever else, but I think we've all asked ourselves whether any harm is being done by that and concluded that ultimately, the answer is no.

Tobias, on the other hand, is a person who has looked causing harm in the face and said to himself "Eh, fuck those guys." He has no sense of honor, and I want nothing to do with him. I will never buy from him regardless of how he prices his goods, and I will never give him approval to make repros of the Xanadu translations once they are done.

If you're wondering what kind of harm he does by ripping off things from the community, by the way, there are two factors. The first is that it's demoralizing to see your work used in that way, and in the absence of money, morale is the only thing that fuels these projects. The second is that it potentially moves us all under the eye of relevant copyright holders who can then start throwing around cease-and-desist orders. I have a feeling that Konami doesn't give a damn, but as the keepers of the entire Hudson estate, they could give us all a good scare if they decided they wanted to start barking loudly.

[Joe Redifer]

The vast majority of the people who comment on my videos are awesome, but there are also a few people who need to pull a plastic bag over their head and go to sleep.

Welcome to the internet. Anything you do will attract stupid comments. People like to moan about how awful Youtube comments are. Or how awful Facebook is. Neither of those things are at fault. What's awful are just people in general, especially when they can comment from the comfort of their keyboards. Forums are just as dumb as Youtube comments, and those are just as dumb as Facebook, Tumbler, etc etc etc. The internet in general is just dumb because anyone can comment. Only smart people should be allowed to comment. Like me. But of course everyone thinks they're smart. Anyway at least try to have fun with the shitty comments instead of getting angry at them. I had a dude who was saying how the PS2 trounced the OG Xbox in every conceivable way. That was fun for me.

[esteban]

If you're wondering what kind of harm he does by ripping off things from the community, by the way, there are two factors. The first is that it's demoralizing to see your work used in that way, and in the absence of money, morale is the only thing that fuels these projects. The second is that it potentially moves us all under the eye of relevant copyright holders who can then start throwing around cease-and-desist orders. I have a feeling that Konami doesn't give a damn, but as the keepers of the entire Hudson estate, they could give us all a good scare if they decided they wanted to start barking loudly.

Indeed.

[Gypsy]

I had a dude who was saying how the PS2 trounced the OG Xbox in every conceivable way. That was fun for me.

This had to be incredible. I'm trying to wrap my mind around how someone could even come to that conclusion. The Xbox is technically superior (as it should be since it came out later). Microsoft really did a good job making it HD friendly.

Both are good systems honestly. Have both, play both, enjoy both.

[elmer]

If you're wondering what kind of harm he does by ripping off things from the community, by the way, there are two factors. The first is that it's demoralizing to see your work used in that way, and in the absence of money, morale is the only thing that fuels these projects. The second is that it potentially moves us all under the eye of relevant copyright holders who can then start throwing around cease-and-desist orders. I have a feeling that Konami doesn't give a damn, but as the keepers of the entire Hudson estate, they could give us all a good scare if they decided they wanted to start barking loudly.

Indeed.

Yep ... the idea of putting in hundreds/thousands of hours of unpaid work on a translation just "For the love of it" (sic), and then to have someone take it and try to make money off of all your hard work (and be praised by collectors-of-plastic) ... is very demoralizing.

IMHO, it's the kind of selfish act that will kill people's willingness to work on translations far more surely than any Konami C&D.

In the case of the Legend of Xanadu games, they've both been completely re-compressed in order to get the translations to fit into memory on an SCD.

That compression code and method is my copyrighted property, the translation won't work without it, and it will not be licensed to Tobias.

That should be enough to give us legal-standing to get a C&D against PCEWorks, even if Falcom don't care (which I think that they would, since they actually still sell both of the Legend of Xanadu games on the Wii Virtual Console).

[TheClash603]

I had a friend that was selling bootleg football jerseys for $40 a pop and he got a cease and desist letter from the NFL. 

A "friend"... Riiiight!

I will introduce you to him, DaCa$h6O3.

[seieienbu]

I don't really have a problem with piracy and bootlegs in general.  If somebody wants to sell Magical Chase repros then I couldn't care less.  If the guy making the bootlegs charges to make a profit then that's fine.  In this particular case Tobias lied, cheated, swindled people with fakes and then stole projects from persons currently active in the community for a quick buck.  These two things lead me personally to want to not have any dealings with the man's business.

My limited knowledge of economics tells me that there is clearly a market for these types of things and the high profitability of bootlegs will (eventually) lead to others making copies of PC Engine games.  Even if some guy charged exactly as much as Tobias, I would be happy to fill in the expensive gaps in my collection of games I want to play.  Optimally, multiple people would have a pricing war and in the end a CD with a manual and a nice case would become pretty cheap regardless of what game it was ripping off. 

So long story short?  My fingers are crossed that other bootleggers take notice on Tobias' profiteering and on the current stupid high ebay prices on some PC Engine/Turbografx games and see that a market with demand is there thus there is money up for grabs.