Saber Rider and the Star Sheriffs

[TurboXray]

Also as soon as the content is ready we will hand over the material to the PC Engine Guys because the PC Engine version will be the only version which will be standalone and from scratch again.

The fact that this wasn't primarily for PCE, from day one, is why I just couldn't get excited about it. And now PCE being dead ass last, well, kind of re-arrims my initial feelings of it. Sorry, but from reading the current posts and stuff, I get the feeling the PCE port is going to be half ass-ish. I'd love to be wrong, definitely, but the odds of reality are against it.

 Somewhat related, but this whole "port to a bunch of systems" for home-brew type stuff - is kind of a lame idea. Stick with one platform and make it shine. Even if that has to be PC/steam. Nothing says I don't give a shit about your platform, in the homebrew scene, like multi-plat ports. I mean, home-brew is supposed to embrace a certain idea about the essence of a system and its community. (everyone else is ranting in here, might as well throw my two cents in).

[Arkhan Asylum]

The fact that this wasn't primarily for PCE, from day one, is why I just couldn't get excited about it.

Well, it's for Saber Rider fans first... not PCE fans.   The PCE one is mostly for people who are both, and for people who want some new game to play.   

If you weren't excited about it because it wasn't targeting the PCE specifically, it means you're not really a Saber Rider enthusiast, so oh well.   You weren't the initial target.   I mean, you kind of sound a little entitled with statements like this, lol.

I get the feeling the PCE port is going to be half ass-ish. I'd love to be wrong, definitely, but the odds of reality are against it.

It's not a port.  the PCE one will be it's own sort of entity, with PCE specifics, and games in mind.

I mean, home-brew is supposed to embrace a certain idea about the essence of a system and its community. (everyone else is ranting in here, might as well throw my two cents in).

Why do you think they asked us to do it?

You realize, Aetherbyte is who is on for the PCE version, right? 

We're not porting anything.  The idea of porting a 3DS or Steam game backwards to PCE is nonsense in the first place. 

We've already got some loose ideas of what will be done for the game in the spirit of it being a PCE title.   It will be unique.

[NecroPhile]

1.  I'm definitely not a Saber Rider enthusiast.  I'm only here to OBEY. 

2.  The PCE game might be a entirely different game now, but that's not how it was billed in the KS campaign.  I'm sure it'll still be fun and all, but why does it need to be something so different?

3.  I don't see why it's nonsense to port a "16-bit game" to a 16-bit system.  Stuff has to be down graded to fit the lesser specs, sure, but how's that different from what was done to port arcade games to consoles done back in the day?

[Gredler]

I am sure it will be tight, but have you prototyped the gameplay?

I understand the art will dictate a lot of the organization of code, but can't you lock in mechanics with placeholder art?

I would imagine your artist would appreciate having boundaries to work within when converting the art, and you would have a rolling ball for when final art comes in to be retrofitted.

The idea of a fun little side scrolling shooter like Rolling Thunder would be awesome, and I have the utmost faith in you and your crew Arkhan, the game will hate but they wont hate the game

I do wonder if you're not working on it until they're done because you as well lack faith in the project as a whole, as if the game is 100% a rebuild and different original, I am missing what is preventing the PCE project from getting underway.


MOAR PCE GAMES PLS.

[TurboXray]

stuff

Doesn't change the fact that it's a hand-me down PCE "port" (version, whatever you want to call it). If you don't want to see it like that, cool. And if you're gonna do it justice and make it badass, totally cool (seriously). I mean, I'm allowed to have an opinion and I'm expressing it (to this thread, so it's relevant). I don't care if you think it's elitism or not, but know that it wasn't directed towards you - just the project in general. So yeah, I'm not a fan of the series or whatever this show is, but I'm interested in stuff for the PCE (regardless of the source). I think that's how most home-brew communities work.. or feel.. whatever. But as-is, I just expressed my opinion on it. Take or leave it; it's cool. I'm not involved in the rest of this drama.

[elmer]

I think a person who knows himself well enough & is disciplined enough to finish something through just for the money (ie: he couldn't care less about the character) is an asset when well-directed on a project.

Well, I'd say that that sentence defines 90+% of professional Game Developement.

When you work at it for a living, you do what the Boss tells you to do, whether you have a "passion" for the project, or not.

That's one of the reasons that people burn-out and leave the big studios and either go-indie, or just change careers.

Was Simon Butler actually getting the job done, and what kind of job was Chris Strauß doing in the directing and management of the project?

These are the questions that I had/have.

Basically he does lots of armchair analysis of seemingly why projects go south, and the common denominator often tends to be dreamers who don't know their limitations, but yet somehow are lucky/cunning enough to get people to pay to follow that dream.

Yeah, I appreciated StopDrop&Retro's videos during the whole RetroVGS debacle.

I do wonder if you're not working on it until they're done because you as well lack faith in the project as a whole, as if the game is 100% a rebuild and different original, I am missing what is preventing the PCE project from getting underway.

Ouch! That's another "inconvenient" question. 

[elmer]

Besides, Ocean put out a lot of horse shit back in the day, so you should stop acting like this guy is some saint/powerhouse, especially since you've done so while ignorantly talking a little shit about the person doing SRATSS, without realizing what all is going on.

Ocean put out one heck of a lot of crap ... and also some good stuff that is very fondly remembered, for whatever crazy reason.

There were some teams that did good work, and others that weren't so good.

There were no saints or powerhouses, and some people needed more managing than others.

It was a job, and sometimes people had to rush in right at the end of a project and work 24hr shifts to cobble-together something as fast as possible because the original developers totally flaked-out.

That's given me a lasting disrespect for those that "talk-the-talk" but can't "walk-the-walk".

That doesn't seem very professional.

Actually ... getting stuff done on time, to the best quality that was achievable within the resources/timescale, and then poking fun at those people/teams that couldn't do so ... is pretty-much a definition of what it was like to be a "professional" back then.

Well, a strong liver helped, too. 

Sorry if that doesn't match your expectations, in the modern "everyone-gets-a-prize" culture.

By the way: how's your PCFX game coming along?

Well, since you asked, (and see, I can actually answer without taking offense at your attempt at a dig) ...

The compiler toolchain is fully working, and actually supports C++ now.
The current work on Huzak will directly transfer over to the PC-FX where we don't currently have any driver at all for music & sound effects.

But apart from that, I haven't had the time to get back to the work on updating liberis, or started on the game itself.

Then again, neither have I asked for people's money up-front to do any of this work. nor have I promised to do it on a specific timeline.

I am currently leaning towards the side of Mr. Oceanman got a little too pompous and forgot he's sort of a washout now.

He's currently seeming like the VIC-II palette of the retro art world.   Replaced by better talent, but still being a dick anyways.

He's a 2D sprite artist of reasonable-but-not-stunning quality in a 3D art world.

His skills just aren't in high-demand anymore, and his "attitude" has never served him well in the workplace.

So what?

That's not the question (at least to me).

What I want to know is, whether the job was/is getting done, and how well.

I mean, for fucks sake.  There's right handedness, and it looks *great*.

As shown in that picture, just change the character's movement direction to right-to-left instead of left-to-right and suddenly you get to see the chest of a right-handed character.

You want the artist to draw both directions anyway unless you're going to go-cheap and sprite-flip (which there's no reason to do anymore).

I figured that out 20-seconds after hearing it come up in Simon's video.

He's an amusing bastidge, but sometimes he needs someone strong-willed enough to argue with him.

That requires both people-skills and management capability from the "lead" on the team.

Sombody made me aware that there are some posts about Simon Butler and his involvement with Saber Rider here. I saw this youtube video the first time today. Well yeah what should I say. XD
The video clearly shows why I kicked him very early from the team!

Thanks for coming here and participating in the conversation!

Information is always good, especially after this thread was quiet for so long.

I wonder from where you get your informtion?
You propably missed the important ones.

I got my information solely from your KickStarter Updates, the KickStarter Comments posted by you and others, and your website ... i.e. all the publicly-available information, whether it is true or not.

Which is why it seemed to make sense to ask a question.

What ever he claims to know about the project or saying about the project is bullshit.
He knows nothing!

I can certainly believe that he's in-the-wrong here ... but that seems to be a very far-reaching claim to make about the lead artist on your KickStarter.

I took the time and listen to all his podcasts from 2016 - what an asshole. I wish I had checked him out much earlier because with all the infos I got I would NEVER ever hired him in the first place.

Ahhh ... but you didn't, and you did hire him.

And then you put his name and work-history, together with that of the programmer that you also fired, both right beneath your name on the KickStarter, presumably in order to help convince backers that you had a solid team in place that could see the project through to completion.

Then you say on the project's website that ...

I had to let go the programmer already shortly after the Kickstarter finished because of massive problems happened before, during and after the Kickstarter. I was even forced to spend money to hire a lawyer in order to stop him spreading lies.

BEFORE??? Really??? 

You've already had one round of crowdfunding for this project spend all of its money with no results, and then you fire the two marquee people on your team a few months into the project after you've received another $85,000+.

I hope that you can see why there might be some questions.

It may well be that you are in the right, and that they were in the wrong.

But asking some questions, doesn't seem unwarranted.

That said he was the second choice anyway. I always wanted to work with Henk Nieborg on the project but Henk was ill back then and not able to work on Saber Rider. That has changed. Henk is on the team and he is doing a awesome job!

The new art that you're showing now that Henk is doing is looking great! 

I'm glad that you're now working with someone that you can respect, and who is getting the job done.

In the end all his material had to be put in trash because nobody wanted to finish his shit. The new sprite artist did the same job in just 4 weeks!

That's great, too.

Now that you're back on-track, with a few weeks-worth of sprites and a few screens worth of backgrounds, some 14-months after starting development, I look forward to staying in touch with the project's future progress.

And seriously what good stuff has Simon done? 5 years Ocean Software and most Games from that company was utter crap. Look at his linkedin account. He never lasted more than a year in most companies. Mostly the kicked him out. He told me himself that a lot of stuff didn't worked out because of is attitude.

And yet, once again, you chose to hire him, and seemed to believe that the quality of the games that he personally worked on (not those of the company as a whole), was good enough for your project.

Caveat Emptor.

Good for you if the cooperation between you and Simon worked out.
It didn't for me. And yeah if you ask him, then ask him also how much fucking money he got blown in his ass. The material I got was like "yeah I dont care I just need money" No, Thank you!

Haha ... I worked with him in the company, not on a project. I know both his capabilities, and his volatility. 

Now that I've seen that video with him, I don't think that I need to contact him.

I've heard the tale from both sides, now, and that's all that I wanted.

I uploaded a video today showing the game on Dreamcast displayed on a real CRT.
You can watch it here:
https://youtu.be/m2BrqFvRDwQ

Thanks!

Elmer's not very invested in the project, as he's not backed it (afaik) nor does he have any real interest in it as an IP other than trying to poke fun at it's lack of progress.

Nope, I didn't back it. I have zero interest in the TV show, or in the licensed-product that was being sold.

What I do have an interest in, is the continued erosion of trust in KickStarter as a platform that people who-actually-have-a-clue can go to in order to get their projects realized.

If you and Fire-WSP want less complaints about it being late, it's up to you to provide meaningful updates and a revised schedule.  It's pretty clear he doesn't really know what he's doing, plus he's already got one failed project under his belt, so it's not surprising that peeps are worried about the lack of progress.

Necro nailed it. This is project management 101. You have to manage schedule, and you have to keep customers informed so their expectations are realistic and properly set.

Both of these.

This isn't a PCEngineFX homebrew project that's been pre-sold to a few dozen friends to pay for the CD mastering.

It's a project that's been KickStarted for $96,591 and has legal obligations to the licensor, if nobody else.

Some people apparently need to grow the f*ck up. 

Finally ...

Elmer, lol, wtf do programmer egos have to do with hosting a zip file of PDFs?

I think that you've managed to do a very good job here of showing which of us has a "delicate ego". 

[ccovell]

[OldRover]

^^^ win.

[Gredler]

Actually ... getting stuff done on time, to the best quality that was achievable within the resources/timescale, and then poking fun at those people/teams that couldn't do so ... is pretty-much a definition of what it was like to be a "professional" back then.

Well, a strong liver helped, too. 

I would say that is as true now as ever, as far as I know. Save for maybe Blizzard, Valve, and a hand few others, if you're at a studio you are under constant pressure to deliver acceptible work under what people are often surprised by timelines. Good management helps a lot, I love my producers and current job because of our ability to communicate and schedule together.

I am blessed to be entering my 9th consecutive year making a living by making video game art.

I am not an amazing artist, nor am I a technical wizard, but I have somehow seen more intelligent and more talented people get let go time and time again. It always comes down to one simple fact, this is a results driven gig. If you are not producing usable assets on schedule you will not be hired for long. This is as much true by over-promising and under-delivering; I see it all the time, and we have a fun running joke around the office, EOD! "I'll have this for you by the end of the day! EOD!"... Realistically estimating time to complete tasks is as important as your ability to execute them.

I look up to this Simon guy, and Elmer, as people who have worked a career they loved. Like any job it has its hard times, but every morning as I commute 45 minutes to work my brain is filled with excitement and ideas for what I am going to do once I get to the office - and I know how lucky I am to do that. Knowing people like Simon and Elmer have done that as long or longer than I've been alive makes me hopeful that I will be able to continue doing this the rest of my life. Fingers crossed.


As for the liver comment... yes this is 100% true.

[NightWolve]

Hey, uh, elmer, thanks for being a power poster! ;) I think you're beating me in terms of long article-length power posts and in quantity!

I catch shit from the 1-2 sentence chatroom style posters, one of them had followed me from here to NeoGeo to cry at my "long" posts (think it was lukester's account there), so the more, the merrier! Takes the heat off me when I don't stand out as much, so thanks man!

[Arkhan Asylum]

1.  I'm definitely not a Saber Rider enthusiast.  I'm only here to OBEY. 

2.  The PCE game might be a entirely different game now, but that's not how it was billed in the KS campaign.  I'm sure it'll still be fun and all, but why does it need to be something so different?

3.  I don't see why it's nonsense to port a "16-bit game" to a 16-bit system.  Stuff has to be down graded to fit the lesser specs, sure, but how's that different from what was done to port arcade games to consoles done back in the day?

It wasn't billed as an identical game in the KS.  It was just mentioned as a "PC Engine version".   I personally thought it was sort of implied the PCE one would be different.  Not radically different, just different.

The reason it will likely be something different is more so it's in line with the PC Engine library and the expectations people may have there.   I keep joking that I'll just release China Warrior with space suits.   But really, I'd just rather make sure the game that we do feels like it belongs on the PCE.

This sort of thing isn't really out of the realm of normal anyways.  Look at games like Pirates of Dark Water.   SNES and Genesis had different games.  They were both good.

Also, when I say it's "nonsense", I mean its not really porting, and the whole thing is going to be nonsense to sort out at first, lol. 

It's a bit semantic-y but like, the whole thing's going to be redone from scratch.  There's no code porting going on.  This was a thing BITD also in some situations.  You just get assets and have to eyeball a recreation to the best of the hardware's ability.

and, yeah... it's a "16 bit" game, but is being done on such modern hardware that it isn't *quite* the same, since a lot of restrictions no longer exist, so you end up with something that's like an extreme form of going from arcade to console, and in this case there will definitely be no reusable code, and alot of the visual stuff unfortunately isn't a thing on PCE unless you want to do some severe dicking around.   

I would rather not have the gameplay suffer for the sake of recreating all of the visuals.  Gameplay comes before eye candy.

Certain gameplay elements, at the time, (pokey touch screen first person stuff) just seemed out of the question on PCE because moving a crosshair around with a D-Pad is pretty shitty.  Coming up with a PCE alternative to stuff like that seems fair. 

I do wonder if you're not working on it until they're done because you as well lack faith in the project as a whole, as if the game is 100% a rebuild and different original, I am missing what is preventing the PCE project from getting underway.

I'm finishing Inferno for MSX2.  That takes precedence.

When talks of this came up, I told them I would not start on anything until:

1) Inferno is done
2) Everythings sorted and we know what we will be doing.

I don't like working on 900 things at once.  Inferno is not done, and point 2 is still being hashed out.  I rarely start more than one thing at a time.  It bugs me to have too many things going simultaneously.

I've prototyped and experimented with a few things, thought about some others, and at least have some plans drafted out.  But, finishing Inferno is thing-to-do-first. 

I also want to wait for more assets to bounce in and be finalized, so we don't start planning for one thing, and then go "ah fuck" when the art direction/tiles/etc. change to where an idea no longer works. 

Going backwards to lesser hardware with only one BG plane involves a bit of planning.


I'll point out too:  We were brought on near the end of the KS.  We're essentially hired/liscened out help once things get moving.  So, as excited as I am to work on something like this once it gets moving, Aetherbyte did not have much of a hand in the planning or the KS.   We were approached and asked and said sure, that seems like it will be fun.

Also, the PCE version almost didn't make it.  Things changed, and then IIRC, Watermelon ponied up more money.   Otherwise, there wasn't going to even be one for PCE!

(I think it was a stretch goal, but then got stuck into a normal role)

That's given me a lasting disrespect for those that "talk-the-talk" but can't "walk-the-walk".

You mean like your old pal Simon that you built up a bit and talked about like some comical, great character while stepping on others, out of ignorance?  Seems like he tripped while walking the walk. 

So what is it.  do you respect the guy, or what?  He doesn't seem to fit your criteria for respect, yet your tales and excitement about him say otherwise.

Actually ... getting stuff done on time, to the best quality that was achievable within the resources/timescale, and then poking fun at those people/teams that couldn't do so ... is pretty-much a definition of what it was like to be a "professional" back then.

Well, a strong liver helped, too. 

Sorry if that doesn't match your expectations, in the modern "everyone-gets-a-prize" culture.

By your own definition, this person is/was not operating as a professional, outside of the acting like a douchebag part, since they delivered garbage while squandering pay. 

Also, I don't know where/how an "everyone gets a prize" ageism statement is even relevant here.  Hint: It isn't.  That's just more of you doing you. 

I work around professionals all day, most of whom are older than me.  It's a multi billion dollar, global company.   It's got nothing to do with "everyone gets a prize" and everything to do with "not being a tool".   You can get away with being a chucklefuck in a small company when you're on some smaller team.    That shit doesn't fly in large ass companies.   You get shown the door pretty quickly.

(and see, I can actually answer without taking offense at your attempt at a dig) ...

Good for you.  I wonder how much of that is because you 1) like talking about yourself/your tales and 2) it allows you to reply in this manner.

Also, you severely misunderstand what caused me to lash out.  You didn't actually take a dig at me.  Nothing you said offended *me* directly.  Your attitude and statements about Simon in comparison to other things is what set me off.  None of that really has much to do with me.

He's a 2D sprite artist of reasonable-but-not-stunning quality in a 3D art world.

What I want to know is, whether the job was/is getting done, and how well.

Your sure seemed to enjoy reminiscing about your old buddy while shitting all over someone you don't know, regarding a project you don't care about.

Now, your tune seems to have changed slightly since it turns out Simon is indeed a knob.

And, as we've discovered: He was doing a shit job, while hoovering money. So, good ol' Simon contributed to problems with the project.   

Lesson learned: Some legends are real fuckholes.

You want the artist to draw both directions anyway unless you're going to go-cheap and sprite-flip (which there's no reason to do anymore).

I figured that out 20-seconds after hearing it come up in Simon's video.

He's an amusing bastidge, but sometimes he needs someone strong-willed enough to argue with him.

That requires both people-skills and management capability from the "lead" on the team.

Yeah, what does that say if you and I, both non-artists, can see how stupid the artist is being?

It sounds like things were managed decently from the management side, and sounds more like Simon's just a stubborn, clueless dick who draws awkward looking sprites in the first place.   

As noted, there's a reason why he got shit canned.   He copped an attitude, sucked up money, and sucked at his job.

I think the overall lesson here is, maybe you should figure out who/what the fuck it is you're talking about before you kick into your rocking-chair-on-the-porch glory days nonsense especially when you're going to dump all over one side, and sort of sample the taste of your foot in the process.

You have this fantastic tendency to do that crap, and then hop around like a mad scientist, all giddy that you've got someone like me riled up in the process.  It's funny when you're making fun of MML or something, but less funny when you're dumping on actual people who have reasonable excuses for things going on with a project.

Nope, I didn't back it. I have zero interest in the TV show, or in the licensed-product that was being sold.

What I do have an interest in, is the continued erosion of trust in KickStarter as a platform that people who-actually-have-a-clue can go to in order to get their projects realized.

So you're not so much excited to watch the thing unfold from the standpoint of wanting the end product.  You just want to watch it unfold from a KS observational standpoint.   Got it.  Does that mean your excitement and "looking forward to it" remarks towards the project owner are sort of just BS?

Some people apparently need to grow the f*ck up. 

Yourself included?

The project isn't doing bad.  It's actually doing fine, especially compared to how other KSs have gone.

Mighty No. 9 still hasn't given me the shit I PAID for, and hasn't replied either, despite 10 inquiries from me over the past year. 

So, I paid money for a game that is done now, and I've not gotten what I paid for.  That's the kind of shit you should be pissing and moaning about, not a smaller scale licensed project that is producing WIPs, getting Steam Greenlighted, and seems to be on the up and up despite some recent suckage in the real life department.

I think that you've managed to do a very good job here of showing which of us has a "delicate ego". 

Honestly, this really has nothing to do with a delicate ego.  I am not a competitive person.  I just don't really respond well to people doing sort of idiotic and/or douchey things like throwing people under the bus with little reasoning. 

I don't care if people ask questions about this thing, or complain about it.  I really don't.  Ask away, as people have.

I actually talked about it on video, posted here in response to your inquiry, and have talked about it in chats and other places when people ask ask me either in private or in groups or whatever.   It's fine since the questions are usually like, thoughtful?

My problem is that you do this thing where you talk about yourself (lol, the irony with this whole ego bit), and then use it/your anecdotes to shit all over people and talk shit as it seems convenient for the situation.   It's lame.   

Besides, this has nothing to do with *my* ego, because as I said before: the thing that pissed me off was you shitting all over someone else while talking about a dickhead and patting yourself on the back, in an environment where I'm not so sure you realized the person was going to see and reply.

I don't really sit back and keep quiet when people do shit like that, because it's bogus.

Again, you didn't take a dig at me.  You didn't make fun of my work or abilities.  You used a little bias to talk about Simon as the OK party while throwing someone else under the bus.  Maybe your actual tone and intent was not what I read.  Just like maybe you're reading my tone different than I intend.  Fuck if I know.   None of this really changes the uncool nature of throwing people under the bus with little to go off of. 

looking back at the thread, I think the biggest takeaway is that ballsack with eyes comment I made.   That's still cracking me up.

[Arkhan Asylum]

This is the best meme of 2017

[Gredler]

Danm, long post, but I have to say it does give insight to your response to elmers inquiry.

I keep forgetting about inferno, because my radar stops short before the MSX, because that shit sucks! The grafx are far from turbo on that thing, moar engines in this PC please! ;)

[esteban]

Oh, the drama.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Danm, long post, but I have to say it does give insight to your response to elmers inquiry.

I keep forgetting about inferno, because my radar stops short before the MSX, because that shit sucks! The grafx are far from turbo on that thing, moar engines in this PC please! ;)

Yeah, I mean, we're not all just here to spew out PCE games for people, lol.   The fact that money is involved DOES change things to a point, though.

I definitely refuse to start a ton of things until the current-thing is sorted out, though.   That is just how I operate, because context switching is inefficient.   Especially when going from PCE to MSX and back and forth.   Switching from z80 to 6502 is uncomfortable.

I get Tom's point about being like "oh the PCE is an afterthought, that sucks" since he's PCE centric.   It's just what it is. 

If you're not really interested in Saber Rider, the fact that it's even coming to PCE at all probably isn't THAT exciting anyways.

Kind of like how people get excited for things like Insanity or Atlantean and ultimately never actually buy or play the games since they are like "oh, I'm not into that shit."


I am OK with it coming to old machines, especially since it's not hitting all of them a'la Frogs and Flies or whatever.   It's hitting a select few.  The project creator chose PCE specifically because he likes it.  Otherwise, Megadrive would've been the obvious choice since that scene has tons of spastic people paying for stuff.

[blueraven]

I totally disagree with Zippy the Pinhead in the youtube video who started programming the year I was born that Saber Riders is a piece of shit. Those screenshots are fucking badass. I watched his god-awful interview and I would have fired his ass if I were the assistant manager of an auto parts store. I don't know who he is or what he programmed, or why its important. I don't care what cred he had what legendary l33t status he has in the world of Cobal, Punch-Card computing, or Babbage's Dream Come True. I don't care if he has a corvette and I haven't seen his art, been influenced by his work, or even know the fucking relevance of who he is, but if it's anything like his attitude, then you can garun-fucking-tee that I would hire 3 programmers out of community college to wipe their ass with his CV and do the design if he didn't communicate with me in 4 months.

I know PC Engine time operates in an alternate time-universe where all of the programmers give their blood sweat and tears to their projects, consume mostly popcorn and top ramen, sacrifice time with their families, develop massive neurosis, and live off of redbull and the souls of baby squirrels.

...but for those of you who are now going to tell me that Zippy did a gofundme to cover medical expenses, and I'm a dick because of his health, well I'm not a cruel, evil bastard, so I will wish him well in his recovery. Being sick really fucking sucks. That should be forgiven. I know this firsthand.

so FUCK YEAH SABER RIDER

[johnnykonami]

It's funny, I really had no idea who Simon Butler was but I thought I recognized the name - and apologies if it's been mentioned since I didn't read the whole thread - but I just listened to one of the latest Retro Asylum podcasts where they interview him.  My opinion of Ocean wasn't a high one when I was a kid (from the USA), so that's really my only connection to all of this.  I will say that he threw a lot of shade out there about his former co-workers/employers, which seems like a bad route to go.  Interesting to see him pop up here as well.

[Arkhan Asylum]

It's funny, I really had no idea who Simon Butler was but I thought I recognized the name - and apologies if it's been mentioned since I didn't read the whole thread - but I just listened to one of the latest Retro Asylum podcasts where they interview him.  My opinion of Ocean wasn't a high one when I was a kid (from the USA), so that's really my only connection to all of this.  I will say that he threw a lot of shade out there about his former co-workers/employers, which seems like a bad route to go.  Interesting to see him pop up here as well.

It turns out he's just some stupid cunt that doesn't doodle very well.    Move along.  Nothing to see here.

This project is going ok compared to some other Kickstarters/FundMe/PreorderFirst(TM) projects, so it's whatever.

The PCE version will probably be the special, cool version that people want the most.

[elmer]

Also, you severely misunderstand what caused me to lash out.  You didn't actually take a dig at me.  Nothing you said offended *me* directly.  Your attitude and statements about Simon in comparison to other things is what set me off.  None of that really has much to do with me.

Yep, we been over this numerous times before ... you and I talk differently, and have different ways of expressing humor. We're decades apart in time, and a continent apart in our formative years.

I don't exactly love your constant personal insults, potty mouth, and fascination with Japanese schoolgirls and rape.

We're different. Deal with it.

You've done good things for the community, and I hope that my time and work here are also seen as  providing some benefit by most folks here, even despite my love of long-winded posts, and occasional boring trips down memory-lane.

Again, you didn't take a dig at me.  You didn't make fun of my work or abilities.  You used a little bias to talk about Simon as the OK party while throwing someone else under the bus.  Maybe your actual tone and intent was not what I read.  Just like maybe you're reading my tone different than I intend.  Fuck if I know.   None of this really changes the uncool nature of throwing people under the bus with little to go off of.

Errr ... in that video, Simon called the TV show "rubbish", which is a perfectly-valid personal-opinion, even if you don't agree with it, and he called Chris's CV "smoke-and-mirrors", which it may or may not be, but it still says nothing about his ability to actually get the job done.

I don't see any bus-riding going on there.

Perhaps there were a lot of personal-insults and attacks on Chris's professionalism in other materials that I haven't seen or heard.

Both you and Chris have certainly thrown around enough of those at Simon that I have seen, both here and on the website.

In my position of ignorance, that makes it look like it's you guys that are riding the bus.

You mean like your old pal Simon that you built up a bit and talked about like some comical, great character while stepping on others, out of ignorance?  Seems like he tripped while walking the walk. 

So what is it.  do you respect the guy, or what?  He doesn't seem to fit your criteria for respect, yet your tales and excitement about him say otherwise.

If you actually read what I wrote, I don't believe that I built him up, at all.

He wasn't a "pal" ... we didn't particularly like each other. He was the same vocal ass back then that he still is today. I was certainly a bit of an ass too, back then. Some would say that I still am.

But I saw him do good work, and I respect his ability to be able to do so. That doesn't mean that he still does so ... but it does mean that I'm more likely to give him the benefit-of-the-doubt vs someone with Chris's nebulous background, and crowdfunding history.

I just thought that his story was amusingly-told ... which it was (to me). I would like to note that he managed to say it without any of the personal insults or name-calling that both you and Chris have been doing.

From the outside, I see a project that is off-the rails and possibly burning money, that's fired the 2 lead members of the development staff, is having public he-said-she-said spats, and has had what seems to be lackluster progress over the time period.

It looks like it *might* be coming around now, but so far, at a time when the budget should be running out, and the product delivered, there's not one heck of a lot to show.

So, that raises questions, like WTF is really going on???

I would certainly like to know if Simon really f*cked up and didn't get the work done.

But I just don't trust one-sided stories.

By your own definition, this person is/was not operating as a professional, outside of the acting like a douchebag part, since they delivered garbage while squandering pay.

That could be certainly be what happened ... in which case I'd give Simon sh*t over it if I ever saw him again (unlikely). I'm not discounting it ... but neither am I saying that I accept it, yet.

Unless there is more information out there that I haven't seen, or other witness account of the events, this still looks like a he-said-she-said situation.

Sure, we can all agree that Simon is an mouthy-ass, but I haven't seen proof (yet) that he took money for crappy or non-existent work.

And even if Simon were the Anti-Christ, and did absolutely nothing (in which case he would deserve all this sh*tstorm and more) ... he was fired back in February/March of last year according to what I can make out from the appearance of the work from the "new" sprite artist that's shown on the Saber Rider Facebook page.

That's 10 months ago.

The sprites that you're seeing in the Dreamcast demo look like they were the ones posted on Facebook between March and May 2016 (and the demo uses only a small set of them).

The backgrounds look like they're the same ones that were shown back then, too.

The Character Select screen was shown in July.

I'm not really seeing much, or possibly any (I could be wrong), art in the yesterday's demo video, or on Facebook that seems to have been produced after July/August.

What's been going on?

Even though Chris Strauß was ill in August/September ... does that mean that the entire project stopped during that time?

Did it stop burning-cash during that time?

I'm sorry if you don't like these questions, and since I didn't participate in the KickStarter, then perhaps I have no right to know the answers ... but they're still valid questions and concerns.

You really don't seem to get what the issue is that I'm concerned about.

It's not whether one artist whose talent you don't like, and whose attitude you don't like, and who may possibly have run off with 3 or 4 months of whatever-they-were-paying-him money, over 10 months ago.

It's about whether the project is ever going to see the light of day, or if the "Design/Project Coordinator" is looking likely to burn through a 2nd round of crowdfunding with little to show for it.

Which, by-the-way, would leave you unpaid, and in the the position to be unable to complete a PCE version of the Saber Rider license that you came here and asked people to support the KickStarter for.

The project isn't doing bad.  It's actually doing fine, especially compared to how other KSs have gone.

I hope so.

Does that mean your excitement and "looking forward to it" remarks towards the project owner are sort of just BS?

You seem to think that I might have some petty vendetta against the project just because they fired someone that I haven't worked with in nearly 30 years. That's bollocks!

Nope, I want to see it get finished, and to a decent quality, both so that it doesn't end up as another failed-KickStarter, and so that you get to do your PCE version.

If that happens, then people here won't have wasted their money, and the PCE may get a tiny bump-up in its place on people's radar for future projects.

So that's another unfortunate KS side effect:  You pay an idiot and they fuck off with your money.

That is definitely the concern.

The big question that won't be resolved for a while, yet, is the precise number and distribution of those "idiots" in this particular project.

Yeah, I mean, we're not all just here to spew out PCE games for people, lol.   The fact that money is involved DOES change things to a point, though.

Yes, it does.

Thanks for the detailed info about what's going on from your end of the project and your future plans.

You may have forgotten ... but that was kinda the first question that I asked. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

Yep, we been over this numerous times before ... you and I talk differently, and have different ways of expressing humor. We're decades apart in time, and a continent apart in our formative years.

I don't exactly love your constant personal insults, potty mouth, and fascination with Japanese schoolgirls and rape.

Your "different talking" has nothing to do with the low level you seem to stoop to when you make ignorant remarks towards things in a way where you put down parties you aren't informed of, or talk about yourself. 

That seems to be your recurring theme.  Ignorant remarks meant to put down someone/something.  As we see earlier, and above when you claim I have a fascination with Japanese school girls and rape (seriously.  wtf?).  You wonder why we end up in these situations.  Sort your shit out before you open your mouth.   It's not that hard.

Also, I tend to only make personal insults when they are warranted because someone is being an idiot, or asking for it.   As for potty mouth?  Who fucking cares.  The PCE has games like Download.  We cannot fuck up for this.

I should also point out, there was a stretch of time where Tom (bonknuts) would basically say things we were doing was stupid/wrong/absurd/etc.  it was very sophomoric, and very annoying.   It resulted in alot of arguing, some of which has created lasting  punchlines in other dev circles that caught wind of it.  That stopped, especially since the proof is in the pudding.    You seem to be keen on restarting those kinds of fires through ignorant/bullshit remarks about people and things.   

Errr ... in that video, Simon called the TV show "rubbish", which is a perfectly-valid personal-opinion, even if you don't agree with it, and he called Chris's CV "smoke-and-mirrors", which it may or may not be, but it still says nothing about his ability to actually get the job done.

I don't see any bus-riding going on there.

Perhaps there were a lot of personal-insults and attacks on Chris's professionalism in other materials that I haven't seen or heard.

Both you and Chris have certainly thrown around enough of those at Simon that I have seen, both here and on the website.

In my position of ignorance, that makes it look like it's you guys that are riding the bus.

I said you "threw someone under the bus".  I don't know what "bus riding" you're on about.  However, yes, you were in an ignorant position and inadvertantly chose to side with your old war buddy and make stupid, one sided remarks. 

I was simply responding to the moronic nonsense the dude spouted off in the video.  *shrug*.  Last time I checked, calling out someone for being a dick is an OK event. 

What proof do you need that he took the money and fucked off?  He produced shit art, got money, and got fired.  There's your proof.  Pretty cut and dry, really.

He wasn't a "pal" ... we didn't particularly like each other. He was the same vocal ass back then that he still is today. I was certainly a bit of an ass too, back then. Some would say that I still am.

Then, maybe you should refrain from basically reminscing about the good old days in such a way that it makes it look like you hand your hands in each others pants while shitting all over something you know little about?  Seems fair.   Get the details before you chime in. 

But I just don't trust one-sided stories.

Except...you trusted them enough to giggle and throw someone else under the bus without a full story on the matter.   So, you contributed to a one sided shit-talk session, while saying you don't like one sided stories.  *thumbs up* ?

It's not whether one artist whose talent you don't like, and whose attitude you don't like, and who may possibly have run off with 3 or 4 months of whatever-they-were-paying-him money, over 10 months ago.

It's about whether the project is ever going to see the light of day, or if the "Design/Project Coordinator" is looking likely to burn through a 2nd round of crowdfunding with little to show for it.

Which, by-the-way, would leave you unpaid, and in the the position to be unable to complete a PCE version of the Saber Rider license that you came here and asked people to support the KickStarter for.

I didn't come here and ask people to support anything.   There was already a thread for that, not started by me.  I made *this* thread to talk about the game once it got started.  I don't have any actual involvement with the KS.  We were added when the thing was almost done.

I was asked about it while I was at an airport, and it was funded by the time I got back home.  I did nothing but say "OK", and have been awaiting details/etc. for our portion, while planning how/what to do.   

I'm a patient person, especially since Chris, the dude in charge, is a friendly dude.  I'm not about to be that guy that goes and bitches at someone for having medical problems, and having hired help that turned out to be douchemissiles.

You seem to think that I might have some petty vendetta against the project just because they fired someone that I haven't worked with in nearly 30 years. That's bollocks!

I don't think that at all.  I just don't see wtf you honestly care for since you don't like the content.  I don't know what you like, honestly.

You come into the NEC/PCE scene and do all this dev-oriented stuff which is cool, minus the instigating because you think it's funny... but I don't know what you like.   You refer to PCE as "the old gal" because the 30th is coming... but, as far as I know, you just found out about the thing like last week, and I don't know what you like, or play.  This is mostly because I don't see you doing much talking anywhere except the dev forum. 

Do you actually play PCE games?  I mean, pardon my apprehension, but it's really difficult to wrap my head around people who try to demonstrate the same love/loyalty for a thing that they barely have much time with as someone who's been around it for 20+ years.   

Sure, it's bordering on elitism, but I have to ask, because I am actually curious.   Sometimes it seems like you acquired interest only recently, and don't really actually play games.  It makes it hard for me to take fanboyism demonstrations from you very seriously.

[exodus]

man, I'll play this!

[OldRover]

It's actually kind of depressing that in a scene this small, we still somehow manage to get hostility between accomplished contributors to the scene...

[NightWolve]

Screw the game. I'm waiting for the Arkhan vs Elmer installment of Robot Chicken dev-celebrity death match!

[elmer]

It's actually kind of depressing that in a scene this small, we still somehow manage to get hostility between accomplished contributors to the scene...

Yep, it's pretty pointless. Time to try to wrap this up, and de-escalate the conflict.

Except...you trusted them enough to giggle and throw someone else under the bus without a full story on the matter.

Laughing at a humorously-told tale isn't the same (to me) as "throwing someone under the bus". It doesn't even imply that I necessarily agree with the guy.

I'm sorry if you think it does. It just means that I enjoy the art of a good rant/complaint/whinge/dig.

You may find that strange, but it's a stock part of British humor, and here in America, you've got someone like Lewis Black that has based his entire comedic career on it.

As I pointed out later on, I saw the hole in Simon's argument immediately.


Where I come from "throwing someone under the bus" means that someone involved in a project/business/event is publicly laying blame upon someone else for something that's gone wrong, whether it's their fault or not (see Mike Kennedy & the RetroVGS/Chameleon).

Perhaps we're seeing things differently, but I seriously don't see that I did that.

By that definition, I can't have, since I'm not involved in the project.

You are obviously using a different definition.


Perhaps you are thinking that I'm just (in my language) "being a dick, and stirring up trouble for the hell of it", like some folks seem to love to do for entertainment.

I may have arranged the material that I copied from the KickStarter Updates, and Comments, and the Website, in a way that you don't like, and you may dislike my doom-and-gloom worries about the progress on the project ... but seriously ... from my POV, you'd be hard-pressed to say that I was "being a dick, and stirring up trouble for the hell of it".

But perhaps that's how it came across. If so, I apologize.


Is it true that you really can't see any problems in the project, and that there's nothing about the current rate of progress that worries you about whether it will be finished before the money runs out???

OK, then, I'll shut up.

As pointed out, I have no direct stake in this, so if there are any of the unanswered  questions that anyone wishes to follow up on, that will be left up to those that put their hard-earned money down, trusting that they would see a product.

Is the acceptable to you?

You seem to be keen on restarting those kinds of fires through ignorant/bullshit remarks about people and things.

<sigh>

We are obviously never going to agree on our views of the world, or what are the acceptable ways to voice concern/criticism/warning of projects & development.

You're right, this has all gotten way overblown, especially if even Nulltard is turning up to enjoy the show. 

Nothing good will come of it if we just keep on disagreeing with each other, especially since it is totally irrelevant to what is my *real* concern anyway.

I just hope that things all work out in the end.

Just to finish on something positive ... Henk's artwork is absolutely excellent, BTW. 

Definitely a step above what I remember of Simon's. 

[ccovell]

[elmer]

Despite what you may think, from my POV, I generally prefer not to talk about myself.

But since I'm trying to make "peace", I'll bite and answer your questions.

You refer to PCE as "the old gal" because the 30th is coming... but, as far as I know, you just found out about the thing like last week, and I don't know what you like, or play.

You obviously missed this post ...

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?msg=475244

This is mostly because I don't see you doing much talking anywhere except the dev forum. 
Do you actually play PCE games?

That's because I'm interested in Development more than anything else. Creating stuff is fun.

Like most old-time developers, who did not grow up playing videogames, they're not my go-to form of entertainment.

Combine that with decades of working on them for 8-16hrs a day in a high-pressure environment, and what kind of after-work relaxation could I get playing the darned things???

The only time that I even think of playing a game these days is if it has a truly exceptional story, combined with a good game mechanic and immersive graphics.

For me, that's a very, very short list, especially since it has to be in English, so that I can understand that exceptional story.

So, to answer your question, generally "no".

Except that recently both Zeroigar and Legend of Xanadu 1 got added to the list.  Their storytelling really is that different and pleasurable to me.

I mean, pardon my apprehension, but it's really difficult to wrap my head around people who try to demonstrate the same love/loyalty for a thing that they barely have much time with as someone who's been around it for 20+ years.

See the receipt above ... 27 years, 11 days. And that was just the first one that I bought. Of many.

I was introduced to it a year earlier by a friend who bought a grey-import briefcase-setup.

Unfortunately, I don't have the receipt for the TurboDuo that I bought in approx 1992, after I moved to the States. Still got the machine though. I'm sure that it needs a re-cap by now.

You're not the only person that's been a "fan" for a while. 

[elmer]

Chris, I see your ...

... and raise with ...

[ccovell]

Chris, I see your ...

... and raise with ...

Drawing from the family's deep well, I see.

[elmer]

Drawing from the family's deep well, I see.

It seemed appropriate. 

[shubibiman]

[Arkhan Asylum]

well, that's good that you've not just found and become interested in the thing recently.   It was an honest curiosity due to mostly only seeing dev commentary and not much else.   I'd find it odd if someone just showed up to dick off with developer crap but has no real interests otherwise.   This might have come up in some form before.  I don't quite remember the outcome.

I personally find it hard to take someone seriously if they're *new new* and want to keep acting like they've been in it for awhile.   I don't mind enthusiasm, but it's like when you go to a Maiden concert and someone that just got into them last week shows up in a full getup acting like they've been into it for decades.  You want to wack them in the head with a shovel and tell them to calm their tits. 

This isn't the case, and you just don't seem to play games much anymore.   Fair enough.

My concern was *not* anything to do with questions concerning problems with the project, or what is going on with it.  There was no real disagreement there per se.  I don't care if people ask or have concerns.  I'll answer or comment on that shit all day if people ask.  Your initial post didn't really bother me.  The other ones that followed relating to Simon did.   and that one claiming I'm obsessed with rape.  Still wondering where that one came from.   Accusing someone of being into like rape or pedophilia is a bit low class, and makes me smirk when you also complain about my "potty mouth".   I'd say swearing a lot is much better than making really dumb remarks like that about the people around you. 

Anyway, it was directly related to the way in which you more or less just acted like Simon's side was the OK side either due to the past you have with him, or because it was funny, and you implied the worst about someone you don't know anything about.   Again, a bit low.  That shit isn't cool.    You should know who you're insulting and making implications about before you do it.

Simon's rant wasn't even funny.  The guy just seems like a giant tool who's skills are now outclassed by teenagers.    He's a useless commodity now.   He thinks too highly of himself, and can't deliver to match the hype.   I could go find a bunch of kids doing Ragnarok Online sprite mods and get better results than what he can do.   lol.

My question is, if you knew the guy was a total asshat, why wouldn't you be more apprehensive about him?  If someone's historically a dumbass, I'd assume their side leaves out their bullshit to try and make themselves look better.   So, I'd assume they're the one in the wrong.  Even if they made some kind of funny rant.  I would not use their comical nonsense or whatever to walk all over the other party that I know nothing about.  Again, this may not be what you meant to do, but it is what you did.




We at the PCE scene have had to wait long stretches of time for things to get done due to RealLife(TM). 

Rover's had an exceptionally bad time with real things delaying his stuff.  Money is/was involved there, and we don't tend to get up in arms about it.    The last time it did, I was one of the people standing back taking swings at people for getting lippy.

This won't be any different.   The large chunks of money for the project went to licensing, the prominent versions of the game, and paying idiots like Simon who then leave and become a waste.  I was not expecting a giant paycheck and "start immediately".   Watermelon ponied up a ton of money, so apparently the Dreamcast one is the one to care about. 

SIDE NOTE:  Fuck that group.  Watermelon team is the worst.

[esteban]

ASIDE: Damn, Arkhan, you had a perfect opportunity to show some restraint.

Then you went ahead and posted stuff that reeks of desperation.

"Are you a poseur? Or R U 2 legit 2 quit?"

...only to have that blow up in your face.




STATUS: A very entertaining thread. Does not disappoint. DOUBLE-PLUS GOOD.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Then you went ahead and posted stuff that reeks of desperation.

"Are you a poseur? Or R U 2 legit 2 quit?"

...only to have that blow up in your face.

...it wasn't reeking of desperation.  It was an honest curiosity. I even said this while asking.    I don't know how getting an answer to an inquiry is it "blowing up in my face".

You might have caught onto that if you did anything besides post stupid shit between all of the other posts while trying to be funny.

Usually, I laugh at this stuff.  But this time, fuck off?

[OldRover]

"Are you a poseur? Or R U 2 legit 2 quit?"

This was something I had wondered about too. I've seen it too many times over the years... someone will come into a scene with zero love for the art and try to make waves to sate their own ego, all the while the people who have been involved in the scene for ages get pissed about it but then get shot down by other regulars because their own record is far from perfect. Arkhan's inquiry was perfectly legit, and it's not like it blew up in his face... he got the answer to the question he asked, plain and simple. It would only have "blown up in his face" if he was asking the question for the specific purpose of finding a "gotcha!", but that wasn't the case here and it was obvious. Like Arkhan, I was genuinely interested in knowing what elmer's interest was in this scene. Elmer answered the question like an adult, with a civilized and calm response, and now we can all move forward. There's really no need for any more hostility here, is there?

[Psycho Punch]

There's really no need for any more hostility here, is there?

Yes there is.

[Arkhan Asylum]

SmashTV and the Tard Sherrifffffss

[esteban]

Arkhan and Rover:

Hilarious!

You honestly don't understand how sad (absurd) it is to suddenly shift the discussion to "poseur vs non-poseur" and then having the gall to disingenuously label "curiosity" as the motivation?

That is the *very definition* of desperation.

Ad hominem, and all that...

Please don't let baseless phobias about a person's "authenticity" interfere with reality.

--> Even *if* elmer were an agent of FEKA (and who is to say he isn't?), does it really matter? <--

elmer's contributions have been a net positive. He is not toxic.

FEKA or not.


As someone posted earlier: you would think a small community could co-exist...but egos are too fragile. We do more damage to ourselves than any fantastical infiltration of FEKA agents could hope to achieve!

I didn't want to end on a cliche, so how about this:

You can mock me.
Explain how my reasoning is faulty.
I don't care.

Because I still love you guys.

And I wish I had 1/100 of your skills/effort/perseverance to develop tools/software for PCE.



Also, please take turns as you suck on my left one.

Thanks.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Esteban, the fact that you do this shit but turn the other way as elmer says things that imply I'm a pedophlie or rape enthusiast makes me really lose respect for you as a person.

I labeled it as curiosity WHEN I ASKED IT.

You clearly can't fully read a discussion, as you missed how the reason it was asked is because I don't know what elmer likes for PCE.   I don't know if he likes shooters, platformers, he doesn't like Saber Rider, why does he have an interest in a project for a genre he doesn't like, etc.

So it sparked a legitimate curiosity.   You realize it is entirely possible to fuck around and develop things on a machine you don't really do much with otherwise, right?

This has nothing to do with egos, and we're all getting along quite fine, myself and elmer included, without the need for you to chime in like a stupid fuck.

Take your aloof "oh I'm going to be a simpleton but then throw in that PS: Still love you guys" shit, and shove it up your piss hole. 

[OldRover]

esteban, at this point, the only one stirring the pot is you. That's pretty fucked up, yo. I dunno why you'd wanna keep this shit going... if it's for the lulz, then wtf dude, there's plenty of other places to troll for that. Elmer and Arkhan are both good dudes, so there's no need to try to keep them going at each other's throats.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I don't have time for Elmer's throat.  I'm too busy trying to throat-fuck Japanese school girls, or whatever.

[OldRover]

[Arkhan Asylum]

[Arkhan Asylum]

LOL what in the fuck were we even talking about?

that was back before Roe Jedifier was all bout licking the game sack and being lame apparently.

[Psycho Punch]

must... instigate... drama... *types arkhan rape || arkhan pedo in search box*

[esteban]

STATUS: As I had hoped, the negative energy in this thread is now flowing towards New Jersey. I am happy to report that I am channeling it into my basement. I can handle it. Hopefully, the deluge will subside soon


Arkhan: Sorry to disappoint you. I stand by everything I said, especially the positive stuff. I wasn't being facetious.

Rover: I find the absurdity of this entire thread amusing, but I couldn't resist when Arkhan posted "R U even a real gamer, bro?"  It was surreal.


STATUS: Basement is currently 15% full of shite.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Arkhan: Sorry to disappoint you. I stand by everything I said, especially the positive stuff. I wasn't being facetious.

I'm aware you stand by what you said.  The fact that you latch onto something like that (misinterpreted due to your inability to read), and ignore other things in this thread demonstrates that you're a tool.

Fuck your positive stuff.   I couldn't care less.   Get fucked.  100%.

[OldRover]

esteban, move on already. You're beating a dead horse at this point.

[esteban]

Arkhan: Sorry to disappoint you. I stand by everything I said, especially the positive stuff. I wasn't being facetious.

I'm aware you stand by what you said.  The fact that you latch onto something like that (misinterpreted due to your inability to read), and ignore other things in this thread demonstrates that you're a tool.

Fuck your positive stuff.   I couldn't care less.   Get fucked.  100%.

Ok.

(1) elmer provided perfectly reasonable responses to all of the "offenses" you "endured"

(2) faced with this, instead of "agreeing to disagree" with him (I don't expect you to see eye-to-eye on everything), you resorted to  "but, but, but... you are a poseur"

I did not misinterpret anything. I have followed every post in this thread (drama!).

I also find it charming that you continue to insult me with name-calling and vulgar words—it's because you care!


STATUS: Usually, Sundays are uneventful as I do all my household chores (laundry, vacuuming, etc.). Today was slightly more "spicy".

[esteban]

esteban, move on already. You're beating a dead horse at this point.

I have to make dinner now...so I guess I'll have to stop flirting with Arkhan. You know how little boys are...when they like someone, they don't know how to express it, so they tease them.