Best use of drum samples in PSG music

CrackTiger · 06/22/2007, 12:26 PM

What are some of the best uses of drum samples in Turbo/PCE PSG soundtracks? Not simply cool samples or super high quality samples, but how they're actually incorporated into the music overall.

Feel free to note any amazing PSG drumming if any titles also stand out.

I think that Air Zonk is easily the best. Listening to the entire soundtrack in single sittings nowadays, I've come to appreciate the music so much more than I used to. The only way I think the drumming in this game's music could be improved is with higher quality samples.

Devil's Crush is another obvious one. Although I'm no PSG expert, I can't think of any other games that did a better job with drum samples before the release of AZ than DC.

runinruder · 06/22/2007, 12:44 PM

I love the drums in Blazing Lazers.

I think Shinobi III has my favorite drums for a non-CD game, particularly the maze-level tune.

Tatsujin · 06/22/2007, 01:01 PM

pc denjin is a tough one, indeed

_Paul · 06/22/2007, 01:36 PM

1943 wins hands down, there's just something I love about those drums.

Keranu · 06/22/2007, 04:18 PM

I know I've heard a bunch of PSG tunes with awesome drum samples, but can't really name them off the top of my head. I know Batman had some decent ones, but I mostly like that soundtrack for other reasons. I keep thinking Soldier Blade had really good drum samples but I might be confused with another game.

nat · 06/22/2007, 04:24 PM

Aside from the ones already mentioned, New Adventure Island had some decent drums.

esteban · 06/22/2007, 06:01 PM

Quote from: runinruder on 06/22/2007, 12:44 PMI love the drums in Blazing Lazers.

Yup.

Not that I even know the difference between drum samples and bleep-bleep-simulated-drums (does Veigues have real drums / percussion?)

runinruder · 06/22/2007, 06:13 PM

Quote from: esteban on 06/22/2007, 06:01 PMNot that I even know the difference between drum samples and bleep-bleep-simulated-drums

Ha, same here. I love how the "snare" is being slammed in the Double Dungeons title screen theme, but I didn't mention it at first because, well, it doesn't exactly sound much like a drum.

Keranu · 06/22/2007, 08:01 PM

Didn't Sinistron have an awesome drum beat for the opening title screen?

runinruder · 06/22/2007, 08:49 PM

Yep, good call.

ParanoiaDragon · 06/23/2007, 01:35 AM

I LOVE Shockman's drums, & music in general! It's one of the best IMO. Also, I think Coryoon should get a special mention. Jackie Chan has some nice drums as well! Oh, & I believe it's not PSG, but rather PCM last I heard from Bonknuts.

esteban · 06/23/2007, 10:27 AM

Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 06/23/2007, 01:35 AMOh, & I believe it's not PSG, but rather PCM last I heard from Bonknuts.

On this note, can one of the technical gurus help me understand? Yes, I want to know the difference between PSG and PCM (I think I understand how ADCPM fits into the larger discussion of "console audio", which would include Red Book as well). I think it would be useful to describe a real-life example and describe what's happening with each sound channel. Thanks in advance

.

EDIT: I think I meant to write "ADPCM", but at this point, my brain is mush. Anyway, is PCM shorthand for ADPCM? If so, does this mean that the ADPCM dialogue in Addams Family and PCM drum samples in a HuCard are really the "same" technology (outside of the fact that the dialogue spools from the CD). Yes, I'm totally clueless.

Kaminari · 06/23/2007, 01:03 PM

Roughly speaking, PSG is the cheap synth you can hear in the chiptunes (the part producing the more or less advanced blips and blops). PCM is the format in which the samples (drums, some sound effects) are encoded. ADPCM is a sort of compressed PCM that is often used in CD games in streaming form (Sherlock Holmes for example).

IMO, two chiptune composers really stand out on the PC Engine: Kōji Hayama (Moto Roader, Schbibinman) and Daisuke Morishima (Coryoon, PC Denjin, 1943). Hayama was the first guy to use a PCM drumkit in a HuCard game, back in early 1989. At a good third place, I'll put the gents from LMS/Compile (Gunhed, Devil Crash, Cyber Dodge, Cyber Knight).

On HuCard, the best PCM showcase would be Coryoon. On CD, I'd go for Cyber City OEDO 808.

nat · 06/23/2007, 03:33 PM

Funny you didn't mention the composer for Dungeon Explorer there. I find DE to have one of the best, if not THE best, soundtrack on a chip game.

Keranu · 06/23/2007, 04:22 PM

Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 06/23/2007, 01:35 AMI LOVE Shockman's drums, & music in general! It's one of the best IMO.

Agreed, great soundtrack. I also really love the first game's soundtrack, possibly even more.

TurboXray · 06/23/2007, 09:33 PM

Fiend Hunter has a cool drumkit and other samples. It's uses ADPCM for complex samples.

Anyway- the PCE doesn't have PSG generation, it has PCM sample generation and direct streaming. Although you can setup the sample bank to do PSG style sounds: square, triangle, and saw tooth.

ParanoiaDragon · 06/24/2007, 01:58 AM

Quote from: Keranu on 06/23/2007, 04:22 PM
Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 06/23/2007, 01:35 AMI LOVE Shockman's drums, & music in general! It's one of the best IMO.
Agreed, great soundtrack. I also really love the first game's soundtrack, possibly even more.

I was going to mention the first one, but, to me, it seems a little "off" for some reason.

runinruder · 06/25/2007, 11:15 PM

I've been playing a little Xanadu 2 lately and noticed that it has some cool-sounding "non-redbook" drums.

How about an instance of awful drumming? I remember VG&CE bashing TV Sports Basketball's title screen music because the drums sounded like a bored student tapping on a textbook with his pencil.

Keranu · 06/25/2007, 11:29 PM

Pencil tapping on a notebook drum would sound pretty rad in a game I think.

CrackTiger · 06/26/2007, 03:36 PM

Quote from: TurboXray on 06/23/2007, 09:33 PMFiend Hunter has a cool drumkit and other samples. It's uses ADPCM for complex samples.

Anyway- the PCE doesn't have PSG generation, it has PCM sample generation and direct streaming. Although you can setup the sample bank to do PSG style sounds: square, triangle, and saw tooth.

Maybe the word 'generation' is confusing, but what do you mean exactly?

The way I understand it:

PSG: system generated music
PCM: recorded sound
ADPCM: recorded sound that utilizes a chip in the CD-ROM hardware.

2X4 · 06/26/2007, 08:47 PM

That's how I understood it too.

best drums in psg: How about Champions Forever Boxing!

Keranu · 06/26/2007, 09:03 PM

Champions Forever Boxing had awesome music.

offsidewing · 06/26/2007, 10:30 PM

Soldier Blade. Sound like the drummer from Def Leppard laid down the beats.

"I've got a lot of pedals now..."

ccovell · 06/26/2007, 11:06 PM

Quote from: guest on 06/26/2007, 03:36 PMMaybe the word 'generation' is confusing, but what do you mean exactly?

The way I understand it:

PSG: system generated music
PCM: recorded sound
ADPCM: recorded sound that utilizes a chip in the CD-ROM hardware.

If it helps, the Japanese call the PCE's sound type Waveform Memory [PSG], or "WSG" in Namco's case.

TurboXray · 06/27/2007, 01:04 AM

QuoteIf it helps, the Japanese call the PCE's sound type Waveform Memory [PSG], or "WSG" in Namco's case.

Do you mean PCMPSG? From what I understand PCMPSG is PSG in a sample bank, but the sound is still pulse sound tone format(square,triangle,saw_tooth,etc), not wave.

Btw, too bad they didn't increase the sample buffers for for the PCM channels in the SGX.

Black Tiger: PSG is pulse sound generation(generator) or programmable sound generator. The sound is a tone; either 1 or 0 ( on or off). PSG can only generate tones, while PCM uses "wave" samples. But.. the sample bank for each channel is small so complex samples can not be used without some trickery.

ADPCM format is the same as wave, but it's compressed. On the PCE CD, the ADPCM is 12bit while the PCM is 5bit, so the samples are clearer/cleaner and require no CPU resource to playback *long* samples. The SGX error screen for the CD demos I put out does 32khz 12bit streaming form the CD. Sounds pretty nice IMO.

ccovell · 06/27/2007, 09:14 AM

Quote from: TurboXray on 06/27/2007, 01:04 AMCrackTiger: PSG is pulse sound generation(generator) or programmable sound generator. The sound is a tone; either 1 or 0 ( on or off). PSG can only generate tones, while PCM uses "wave" samples.

This is not really accurate. Many sound chips considered PSG generate sawtooth, triangle, and random noise sound, all of which have varying volume levels in their waveforms. Only square waves are 0 or 1 at any point in the waveform.

Ninja Spirit · 06/27/2007, 10:45 AM

Konami's got one of the best too, in fact they had two different types. However, the drum samples used in Parodius, and the PSG tunes in Snatcher and Tokimeki Memorial just didn't sound right.

Simon's Quest PCE Remix

Now in Gradius, Salamander, and Detana Twinbee, that's what I'm going for. If you got the right audio setup and turn it up loud enough, these drums KNOCK.

Toccata and Fuge in D Minor (Gyruss) PCE

I do one thing to add though, because of their drum kits, anyone think Space Invaders, Barunba, and Burning Angels sound like 8-bit NES/Famicom games?

CrackTiger · 06/27/2007, 04:04 PM

Quote from: 2X4 on 06/26/2007, 08:47 PMThat's how I understood it too.

best drums in psg: How about Champions Forever Boxing!

Champions Forever Boxing is one of the best examples of sampled sfx in a HuCard, but the soundtrack is 100% PCM/sampled. There are only a couple sfx that might be PSG.

CrackTiger · 06/27/2007, 04:10 PM

[quote author=TurboXray link=msg=45792
Black Tiger: PSG is pulse sound generation(generator) or programmable sound generator. The sound is a tone; either 1 or 0 ( on or off). PSG can only generate tones, while PCM uses "wave" samples. But.. the sample bank for each channel is small so complex samples can not be used without some trickery.[/quote]
The way you're making it sound, is that the PC Engine can't generate music other than the pre-8-bit console type and that all it's sound is sampled like the SNES/SFC.

But all HuCard music, that is refered to as 'PSG' in the actual games, sounds similar and super clean.

TurboXray · 06/28/2007, 12:07 AM

Actually, all I'm trying to say is that the PCEs sound system is not the same the NES Tone VS samples. You *can* write samples that will generate tones like on the NES on the PCE if you like, but you're not limited to that.

In general, the PCE is similar to the SNES/SFC in that it uses samples (very small wave files - if you like) - but it ends there. The SNES's DSP sound unit is one complicated beast and superior to the GEN and PCE sound systems. But whether you like the samples used in there games in another thing

.

If the PCE sound unit had hardware envelope and or a larger sample buffer for each channel (even just double), the capabilities would be much greater IMO.

The way I look at it; the Gen has higher fidelity sound samples but more limited in it choice while the PCE is not nearly as limited, but the samples are of lower fidelity because of the short sample buffer and lack of hardware envelope.

***Also when I mention the NES, I'm referring to the basic NES sound unit - not the addon chips. The PCE hucard slot has an audio input pin and why no games ever included additional sound hardware on the hucards like with the NES - is beyond my reasoning.

Most of my sound knowledge/experience comes from "trackers" back in the day, so I'm partial to the PCE and SNES ( though I love a good Gens bass guitar

). ...I miss Fast Tracker II

ccovell: Chris - someone wrote a mod player with visual oscillator for a 68B90E running at 2mhz. The 6809 series is very similar to the 65CS02 (even has zeropage and such). If I can get the source, would you interested in doing a mod player for PCE based on it (maybe using Sarah's 10bit sample trick)?

Tatsujin · 06/28/2007, 12:32 AM

aero blaster is decent as well, even i like the drumset on the MD version the better.

ccovell · 06/28/2007, 09:28 AM

Bonknuts, thanks for the request, but right now, I'm not the guy to work on a modplayer. I have my own game I'm still busy working on, plus I have almost zero knowledge & talent in music -- trackers, notes, notation, all that stuff is beyond me.

NecroPhile · 06/28/2007, 10:57 AM

Quote from: TurboXray on 06/28/2007, 12:07 AMAlso when I mention the NES, I'm referring to the basic NES sound unit - not the addon chips. The PCE hucard slot has an audio input pin and why no games ever included additional sound hardware on the hucards like with the NES - is beyond my reasoning.

I've wondered that myself and concluded that the PCECD kept developers from doing any add ons (much cheaper to go red book than to add a chip).

Kaminari · 07/02/2007, 08:13 AM

Quote from: TurboXray on 06/28/2007, 12:07 AMMost of my sound knowledge/experience comes from "trackers" back in the day, so I'm partial to the PCE and SNES ( though I love a good Gens bass guitar ). ...I miss Fast Tracker II

Which reminds me that Champions Forever Boxing features some impressive use of samples, pretty much in a tracker way. First (and only?) time I heard all the six channels of the system being used as PCM.

CrackTiger · 07/02/2007, 12:44 PM

Quote from: NecroPhile on 06/28/2007, 10:57 AM
Quote from: TurboXray on 06/28/2007, 12:07 AMAlso when I mention the NES, I'm referring to the basic NES sound unit - not the addon chips. The PCE hucard slot has an audio input pin and why no games ever included additional sound hardware on the hucards like with the NES - is beyond my reasoning.
I've wondered that myself and concluded that the PCECD kept developers from doing any add ons (much cheaper to go red book than to add a chip).

I think that the PCE CD-ROM's success kept most developers from attempting much of anything on HuCard and once a game became too ambitious, it got bumped to CD.

Quote from: Kaminari on 07/02/2007, 08:13 AM
Quote from: TurboXray on 06/28/2007, 12:07 AMMost of my sound knowledge/experience comes from "trackers" back in the day, so I'm partial to the PCE and SNES ( though I love a good Gens bass guitar ). ...I miss Fast Tracker II
Which reminds me that Champions Forever Boxing features some impressive use of samples, pretty much in a tracker way. First (and only?) time I heard all the six channels of the system being used as PCM.

Although the sfx/music/sound is very impressive, it only actually uses 4 channels at any given time. But it sounds like some of the channels used samples with recordings of more than one instrument.

I remember years before the game out, I wondered why developers never tried something more like that before. But I never thought that a game would actually go as far as CFB with 100% sampled sound.

Anyone know how many channels are used in Star Wars 32X's title screen music?

TurboXray · 07/02/2007, 09:17 PM

Quote from: Kaminari on 07/02/2007, 08:13 AM
Quote from: TurboXray on 06/28/2007, 12:07 AMMost of my sound knowledge/experience comes from "trackers" back in the day, so I'm partial to the PCE and SNES ( though I love a good Gens bass guitar ). ...I miss Fast Tracker II
Which reminds me that Champions Forever Boxing features some impressive use of samples, pretty much in a tracker way. First (and only?) time I heard all the six channels of the system being used as PCM.

Hey Kaminari. Wow, you're right. I never really listened to Champions Forever boxing before. I looked at it in the debugger and it uses smallest timer value - which means 7khz samples if they're writing to the DDA channel each time on the interrupt.

spenoza · 07/05/2007, 02:13 PM

What, no love in this topic for Parasol Stars? I think Parasol Stars uses some nice drum samples and some very aggressive, very fast-paced rhythms. Some of the best chip music ever, IMO.

Digi.k · 07/10/2007, 02:14 PM

There should be more love for Parodius!!!

Although it dont pack as much a punch as the arcade/32-bit sisters the pc engine sure is fantastic in its own right.

Thunder and Lightning Polka" by Johann Strauss Jr./Symphony No.9 in D- 'Choral', Op.125, 4th Movement "Presto - Ode to Joy by Beethoven
http://files-upload.com/359165/parodius1.mp3.html

Piano Concerto No.1 in B-flat minor, op.23 by Tchaikovsky/Gradius II
http://files-upload.com/359193/parodius2.mp3.html

Trepak" from The Nutcracker Suite by Tchaikovsky/Can-can from Orpheus from the Underworld by Jacques Offenbach
http://files-upload.com/359206/parodius3.mp3.html

The Sabre Dance by Khachaturian
http://files-upload.com/359211/parodius4.mp3.html

L'Arlesienne Suite No 2, Farandole by Bizet/Gunkan March, March of the Japanese Navy, by Setoguchi/Gradius boss theme
http://files-upload.com/359218/parodius5.mp3.html

Waltz of the Flowers from "The Nutcracker Suite" by Tchaikovsky/Flight of the Bumblebee by Rimsky-Korsakov
http://files-upload.com/359261/parodius6.mp3.html

In the Hall of the Mountain King from "Peer Gynt Suite" by Hagerup Grieg/The Storm excerpt from "William Tell Overture" by Rossini
http://files-upload.com/359292/parodius7.mp3.html

I sure hope that info for those mp3 tracks are correct

runinruder · 07/26/2007, 09:44 PM

I tried out Cyber Knight for the first time tonight. The cool-for-a-HuCard opening is backed by some good music that features strong-sounding drums. I was impressed.

Just thought I'd mention that.

CrackTiger · 07/26/2007, 10:11 PM

Quote from: runinruder on 07/26/2007, 09:44 PMI tried out Cyber Knight for the first time tonight. The cool-for-a-HuCard opening is backed by some good music that features strong-sounding drums. I was impressed.

Just thought I'd mention that.

Wow, last night I was sampling sound roms to pick some to flash for recording and after listening to Cyber Knight, I thought that I should post it here.

The only problem is that there were at least a couple more I found that were pretty good, but I can't remember their names now.

kingshriek · 07/29/2007, 09:01 PM

Any PSG+ADPCM combo is great - it's just too bad that not many games use ADPCM drum samples.

PSG+ADPCM games that I'm aware of:

Cyber City OEDO 808
Cychorider (Anearth Fantasy Stories Taikenban caravan shooter)
Dragon Slayer - Eiyuu Densetsu
Fiend Hunter
Pastel Lime
Star Parodia

Fiend Hunter is probably my favorite of these.

OldTurboBastard · 08/29/2007, 08:54 PM

Quote from: runinruder on 06/22/2007, 12:44 PMI love the drums in Blazing Lazers.

agreed - Blazing Lazers had a some kickass drum beats

Psychosis had great drum sounds on the first level and odd time signatures to boot,

Alt-Nintega · 08/29/2007, 10:12 PM

Salamander

Soldier Blade has nice use of PSG drum beats too.

Digi.k · 01/29/2017, 11:07 PM

lol last post was a long time ago...

well I got a larger selection of games now.. More hidden gems to unearth!

I gonna add this one

Yes i know shameless plug!

EDIT:
Added 2 more from Taiheiki

esteban · 01/30/2017, 07:42 AM

Quote from: Digi.k on 01/29/2017, 11:07 PMlol last post was a long time ago...

well I got a larger selection of games now.. More hidden gems to unearth!

I gonna add this one
Yes i know shameless plug!

I love when you go back to these old threads and resuscitate them with new material.

It creates a continuity that makes perfect sense now...as if you simply "unpaused" a game....but a decade later.

Personally, I have a much greater appreciation for this topic now than I did a decade ago (I was far more obsessed with making cross-platform comparisons of ports back then, ha!)

Digi.k · 02/01/2017, 07:34 PM

populous intro title music Rob Hubbard

Digi.k · 02/07/2017, 09:12 PM

Hopefully this qualifies: NEMURENU YORU NO CHIISANA OHANASHI

CrackTiger · 02/07/2017, 09:16 PM

Quote from: Digi.k on 02/07/2017, 09:12 PMHopefully this qualifies: NEMURENU YORU NO CHIISANA OHANASHI

Does the game stream adpcm without cutting out the drum samples?

Digi.k · 02/07/2017, 09:24 PM

Quote from: guest on 02/07/2017, 09:16 PMDoes the game stream adpcm without cutting out the drum samples?

Should do. This title mixes redbook voice tracks over a lot of music tracks too.

Although I wouldn't quite call it a game tho...

esteban · 02/09/2017, 09:50 AM

Quote from: Digi.k on 02/01/2017, 07:34 PMpopulous intro title music Rob Hubbard

I was just playing this a week or two ago.

Wait... "playing" isn't the proper verb...

I just floundered.

It was simultaneously hilarious and pathetic (how much I had forgotten).

Best use of drum samples in PSG music

Alt-Nintega