Analyzing Street Fighter 2: CE on why it is so great.

[SNKNostalgia]

I remember playing SF2 in the arcades at first and then seeing it on the SNES sometime in 92 I believe. After that I saw SF2: CE on the Genesis which wasn't all too bad, but did lack in colors and had dirty music. Then SF2 Turbo: Hyper Fighting came out for SNES which was nicer, but still not spectacular. After all of those, I bought Super SF2 on SNES back in 94 or so.

So, I finally got my US Duo modded to play PCE Hucards and also got the nice S-video mod to go with it. I ordered Ninja Spirit for TG-16 and these games for PCE: Nectaris, Legendary Axe, Splatterhouse, Super Star Soldier, Bomberman '94, R-type 2 (I need 1 now, wasn't aware of the split game crap haha) and a brand new SF2: CE. I ended up getting an Avenue pad along with it. All of this from D-lite, thanks.

I am freaking amazed at how good this version of SF2: CE is for its time and now. It has a solid feel to the controls with excellent colors past the SNES versions and has a very good remix of the music. It is missing the parallaxing in the BG, but that never really amazed me in the SF2 games. So, it easily does well without it. I like how the colors seem to be more solid and vibrant than all the other ports, especially with the character sprites for Ken, Mike Bison, Guile etc.... The Avenue pad is easy to use with pulling moves off on this game. The usage of the HuCard PSG is better than the usage of the SNES yamaha music. Also, the PCMs are really impressive for voices and sound effects. The game just has an overall better and different feel to it, even compared to the arcade. It is hard to point it out. Maybe it was kind of redone all together if you look at it closely.

[Keranu]

Yeah I think the PCE version has got to be my favorite from the 16-bit console ports (unless you count Super for Genesis). From what I recall, the SNES version had some pillow shading in the graphics that made it look a little generic, while the PCE version used nice smooth shading and looked more colorful than the Genesis version. Also the music in the SNES version just didn't sound right to me and I think it's because it was speeded up or something (CrackTiger mentioned something about this). Each port had their own best and worst versions of songs though, but I generally prefered the PCE version.

One other thing I'd like to comment on (or recomment rather since I posted it before) is that the PCE version seems to fix a "problem" that appeared in other versions of the game. In other versions of the game if you do a Psycho Crusher with Bison and the opponent is blocking, you can easily throw the opponent as soon as the Psyco Crusher ends. I've tried replicating this in the PCE version but it has never happened, while I know for a fact it happens in Super for Genesis and the arcade version as well I think. While it is a fun feeling to throw someone who blocks it, it does unbalance the game.

[Joe Redifer]

The Genesis' music was fine, it was the voices that were "dirty".  Ug.

The PCE version is indeed quite good, but I don't feel it is any better than SF2 Turbo for the SNES (except for the 6-button controller).  I, too, am impressed by the digitized samples in the game.  They sound much better than the Genesis version (Capcom really screwed that up).  The music is good as well, but a little thin.  I do not like the missing layers of scrolling, though.  It's weird seeing the elephants slide across the floor in Dalism's stage because of this.  Even the SNES version is missing the 3rd layer for some reason (note the missing layer of elephants compared to the arcade).  It doesn't affect gameplay, but it sure does look odd.  Still, the PC Engine version seems to be based more on the SNES port than the arcade itself as far as graphics (same with the Genesis versions).  All of the 16-bit home versions have similarly drawn sprites which look different than the arcade.  Same goes with much of the detail in the stages.

By the way, the SNES has a Sony sound chip, and the Genesis a Yamaha.

[CrackTiger]

I'm just putting the finishing touches on a new feature for my site that details the differences between the three versions.
Here's a sneak peak.

[BonkThis]

I'm just putting the finishing touches on a new feature for my site that details the differences between the three versions.
Here's a sneak peak.

awesome CrackTiger, but which console is which graphic? I think the one on the far right is the PCE but I dont recognize the other graphics doh..

[CosMind]

...R-type 2 (I need 1 now, wasn't aware of the split game crap haha)...

sorry to spin off topic, but i am actually really curious about this.  is the r-type hucard split only in the japanese version?  isn't there a u.s. hucard that has both parts on it at the same time?  i understand there's the japanese "complete" cd with both, and hucards for that region only come in the split.  but, for some reason i recall a u.s. hucard release that contains the full game.

please, correct me if i'm wrong.

and, back on subject.  wow, i didn't realize that the pce sfii: ce was colorfully (and possibly audibly) superior to the snes rev.  i've never bothered to even check it out because i've always really loved the snes rev.  looks like i've another hunt to go on now - thanks to you

...They sound much better than the Genesis version (Capcom really screwed that up)...

hey, don't blame capcom.  blame the piece of nuts sound chip in the sega genesis.  uggghhh...

[Tatsujin]

awesome CrackTiger, but which console is which graphic? I think the one on the far right is the PCE but I dont recognize the other graphics doh..

it's just marked in the right down corner of each pic

[Tatsujin]

please, correct me if i'm wrong.

you're right.

[Tatsujin]

looks like i've another hunt to go on now - thanks to you

not that hard to find, neither expensive. don't spend more than $5 on it

[Turbo D]

I'm just putting the finishing touches on a new 'feature' for my site that details the differences between the three versions.

Here's a sneak peak.

dude, this is so awesome! I can't wait to show my friends 

[PhilBiker]

The original "Fighting Street" CD is where it's at.

[gundarN]

The images certainly make the Mega Drive version look the weakest.

I grew up with the Super Nintendo and am quite surprised that the PCE is as good as it is.

Can't beat the arcade original (at least the CPS2 versions) though.

[NecroPhile]

The original "Fighting Street" CD is where it's at.

And by "it" you mean garbage, right?  If not, then you deserve a neck punch. 

[Turbo D]

the pce version sick pwns the snes version, imo. The snes version looks so bland color wise. I think the genny has better color than the snes in the comparisons, imo.

[BonkThis]

awesome CrackTiger, but which console is which graphic? I think the one on the far right is the PCE but I dont recognize the other graphics doh..

it's just marked in the right down corner of each pic

LOL yea, but I have no clue what the first 2 logo's mean, ive never seen them before.. I should be ashamed i know 

[td741]

MD = Megadrive
the "Paw" = Super Famicom
HE = PC Engine

[BonkThis]

thanks I dont know how I avoided those logos for so long LOL

[Turbo D]

don't worry about it man, those logos are from japan 

[SNKNostalgia]

By the way, the SNES has a Sony sound chip, and the Genesis a Yamaha.

It seemed like Yamaha did sound for a lot of systems back then so I still do that. Yeah, SCP700 Sony made sound chip for SNES. Still it has this SNESish sound all the time. It kinda interferes with feel of the sound effects and music.

The colors do seem more faded on the SNES, I wonder why they would do that when the system had full 256 color support and a really high color palette to choose from. Even the Genesis version used more solid blues, reds and greens for example. Of course the Genesis version didn't have as good color transitions with the shades and stuff.

I keep hearing that the Genesis version of Super SF2 is better than the SNES version for some reason. I know the meg count for the SNES is 32Mbit and the Genesis is 40Mbit, maybe that has something to do with it. Also 20Mbit for the PCE SF2:CE is really amazing for that system. Imagine if they upped it some more. This game shows how far they could have gone with the PCE HuCards, not to mention what the arcade card was capable of.

[Joe Redifer]

CrackTiger used the Japanese logos for each system since, ummm, there's no US version of the TurboGrafx version I guess.

hey, don't blame capcom.  blame the piece of nuts sound chip in the sega genesis.  uggghhh...

Capcom is to blame.  The Genesis has superior voice capabilities compared to the TurboGrafx.

[Turbo D]

I blame the lazy programmers as well

[Joe Redifer]

OK... lazy and probably inexperienced programmers on Capcom's D-rated team.  Capcom and Konami never really gave the Genesis their best efforts.

[Tatsujin]

except of Contra the (Hardcore) Hardcorps!! that one uses de MD hardware to its max.

[Joe Redifer]

In the area of animation, speed and gameplay I pretty much agree.  But the sound & music was extremely lacking (re: awful) and the graphics a bit more murky than they should have been... though that could have been on purpose.

[Tatsujin]

yeah, the BGs sometime looking some kind of NESish. But the sound rox the hell out, especially stage 2.

[Joe Redifer]

I keep hearing the first stage theme in my mind.  The guitar sounds like a kazoo or maybe a swarm of angry bees.   I have the game and I'll have to play again.  By the way, which stage 2 are you talking about?

[spenoza]

I think the Genesis can do decent sound samples if they are isolated, but I've noticed the more sound samples that are used the more quickly the quality seems to drop. I suspect the Genesis sound chip has some operational quirks whereby if you don't program it just so it bites. Even some Sega-made games that are great otherwise actually seem to suffer from really low quality sound.

[OldRover]

The colors do seem more faded on the SNES, I wonder why they would do that when the system had full 256 color support and a really high color palette to choose from.

Having a high palette count means little if the developers don't know how to use it.

[CrackTiger]

I think the Genesis can do decent sound samples if they are isolated, but I've noticed the more sound samples that are used the more quickly the quality seems to drop. I suspect the Genesis sound chip has some operational quirks whereby if you don't program it just so it bites. Even some Sega-made games that are great otherwise actually seem to suffer from really low quality sound.

I just think its a developer by developer issue. Not every developer is going to be great at everything and clear samples weren't a big priority back then.

Just as many great PCE games lack in certain areas (DEII's PSG, Forgotten Worlds' flat bg's, FEOE II's lip sync), any Genesis game could have nice clear voices if the right person was involved.

[spenoza]

This discussion brings something else to mind. The SNES had higher sound sample rates and the SNES and PCE had expanded color capacities. Why were the Genesis versions of these games larger than their counterparts on the other systems? Does the Genesis rely on non-optimal sound and graphics data formats? Does it have larger code? But the game code should really be inconsequential here compared to the sound and gfx assets. Someone want to help me out here?

[Joe Redifer]

BECAUSE THE GENESIS GAMES WERE PACKED WITH THAT MUCH MORE AWESOME, THAT'S WHY!!!

Seriously though, I imagine that may have been Sega's idea.  I don't think the Genesis code is larger or whatnot.  I think it's just "padded" to fill up the extra space (or perhaps simply less-optimized) so they can say the largest version is on a Sega system.  Though SF2 Special Champion edition did have Turbo features that weren't in the PCE version.

[OldRover]

You can trust my experience as a programmer that game code is NEVER inconsequential in terms of size. The PCE and SNES used classic CISC-type processors, both based in the 6502, but the Genesis used a RISC-type processor, the 68000. Codespace immediately expands when you use a RISC-type processor (look at any one of many, many old legacy Macintosh ports for a great real-world example of this). I don't think graphics storage is any different in size amongst the three consoles of the time, considering their sprite capabilities in particular were largely identical (single palette, 16 color maximum) save for sprite size, of course. Tile graphics are usually compressed with cartridge-based media, but different companies used different compression schemes and there was never any real "standard" for that back then. But the code will play a major role in storage capacities, that's why the Mega CD unit was given three times as much RAM as its only competitor at the time (which was, of course, the PCE-CD). They needed that extra storage to hold the additional code that would be required to accomplish the same tasks.

[Joe Redifer]

I highly, HIGHLY doubt that a HuCard game that is 2 megs would take up 6 megs of space on the Genesis.  In fact when I see a 4 meg game on the Turbo, it seems like a 4 meg game on the Genesis in terms of overall game size, capabilities, features, etc.

Also, doesn't RISC stand for Reduced Instruction Set Computer or similar?  Reduced instruction set.  That means reduced instructions to accomplish the same tasks.  But it really doesn't matter, as the 68000 was CISC based... not RISC.

[OldRover]

A RISC-type processor means that the instruction set is reduced, not that the amount of code is reduced. Reduced Instruction Set = fewer instructions on the chip = more instructions needed to perform the same tasks.

There is much conflicting information on the status of the 68000. Many sources state that the 68000 is a CISC processor, but many other sources state that it is a RISC processor. The processor architecture is very old, but it was developed during the "true" rise of the RISC processor. One might argue that the 68000 is a "crossover" between the two architectures. It is certainly true that the 68000 contains fewer instructions than a typical 6502-based CPU, although it may not be a "true" RISC-type CPU. Reputable sources offer conflicting data on this.

[CrackTiger]

I don't remember what was unique about Genesis' Super SFII, but Special Champ Edition has lots of extra graphics not found in the other versions, like the full hate-crime arcade intro, animating defeated portraits and extra bg details.

Plus the sfx samples are long and uncut like the PCE samples. But the SNES ones are cut up and reworked as much as possible. Not only are many sped up or echoed off of brief clips, but voices like 'Shouryuken' are cut to "Sho...yukin". When you hear it in the middle of a match, you'd never notice it. But if you look at a recording of it in a sound program, there's a huge gap.

Capcom put a lot of effort into the SFC/SNES version and not nearly so much into the MD/Gen & PCE versions. But they're all closer as overall games than most people think. They're just different in unique ways, which makes it more interesting to play through them all.

[Joe Redifer]

Hate crime?  LOL.  The Genesis Super SF2 has the animated intro where Ryu throws a huge fireball at the screen.  Do the other versions have that?  I don't think that would take up 8 megs, though.

Also, it is likely that Capcom clipped the voices of the SNES version into segments.  Kind of like how recordings of "forty" and "two" can be pieced together to say "42".  They probably did this with some of the moves.  But then again, I could be speaking out of my ass!

[Turbo D]

Special Champ Edition has lots of extra graphics not found in the other versions, like the full hate-crime arcade intro, animating defeated portraits and extra bg details.

They got rid of the hate crime on the genesis version. Pop it in ur genny and you will be surprised that it is two white guys, unlike the arcade.

[Joe Redifer]

That's right!  Two white guys cannot possibly hate each other, so no special treatment for that victim!

Anyway I think the Genesis voices sound bad because there is only one DAC in the thing.  The game had to be able to play back more than one voice at a time, which it often does.  Also you have sampled drums and elephant screeches.  The sample rate was probably halved if not quartered to accomplish this through a single channel.

[TurboXray]

I highly, HIGHLY doubt that a HuCard game that is 2 megs would take up 6 megs of space on the Genesis.  In fact when I see a 4 meg game on the Turbo, it seems like a 4 meg game on the Genesis in terms of overall game size, capabilities, features, etc.

Also, doesn't RISC stand for Reduced Instruction Set Computer or similar?  Reduced instruction set.  That means reduced instructions to accomplish the same tasks.  But it really doesn't matter, as the 68000 was CISC based... not RISC.

When it comes to code, the 680x0 code will be larger than the 65x02 and 65816 and even it's younger brother, the 6809. And the 68000 opcodes are RISC type in format, not 100% because a few opcode combinations are not possible - they're simulated on the assembler side. Also, any sort of array or data structure that is not a even multiple of 2 bytes, really throws a wrench into the speed of accessing it - usually padded to 16 or 32bit for simplicity or speed, at the expense of size. Trying to turn a disadvantage into a great sales pitch?

Anyway, I remember looking at SF2:CE for PCE and all the characters (frames) were uncompressed graphics. The backgrounds are compressed though (maybe someday I'll write and extraction app for that). The hucard only has access to 8k of ram, so decompressing a bunch of frames into ram for quick access is not an option (snes has 128k and the gens 64k).

I just noticed something about the genesis version, it's running in 256 x 2XX mode. That's kind of strange. They must have done that to save space on graphics. The arcade is 384x224. The PCE could've came really close with it's 380pixel mode(mid res), and the gens with it's 320 pixel mode, but the snes is limited to 256 (the SNES 512 pixel mode is pretty much useless because of the sprite/scanline limit). I haven't played the other Gens versions. I wonder if they run in 320 or not.

Btw, I thought the genesis music was cool and impressive considering the limited number of sounding instruments you have on that yamaha chip. The pce music impressed me more though as the samples sound great for trying to emulate the arcade's instruments. The snes version is least impressive for what it's capable of. Also, the gens isn't known for it's digitized sound playback (most sound effects in genesis games are synth - instruments from it's lib) so the quality of the digitized effects was about what I was expecting.

[CrackTiger]

Special Champ Edition has lots of extra graphics not found in the other versions, like the full hate-crime arcade intro, animating defeated portraits and extra bg details.

They got rid of the hate crime on the genesis version. Pop it in ur genny and you will be surprised that it is two white guys, unlike the arcade.

Only for race obdessed America. The japanese version still has 'white on black' violence while a crowd cheers on.

I just noticed something about the genesis version, it's running in 256 x 2XX mode. That's kind of strange. They must have done that to save space on graphics. The arcade is 384x224. The PCE could've came really close with it's 380pixel mode(mid res), and the gens with it's 320 pixel mode, but the snes is limited to 256 (the SNES 512 pixel mode is pretty much useless because of the sprite/scanline limit). I haven't played the other Gens versions. I wonder if they run in 320 or not.

Capcom didn't even try to port the arcade to Genesis or PCE. They just kept regurgitating the original SNES World Warrior port. The strengths of the Gen & PCE versions' visuals are when they deviate from the SNES version.

Hate crime?  LOL.  The Genesis Super SF2 has the animated intro where Ryu throws a huge fireball at the screen.  Do the other versions have that?  I don't think that would take up 8 megs, though.

The SNES version has the full intro as well. If I remember correctly, the Genesis SSFII has some extra graphics for its tournament mode or something.

[Joe Redifer]

Also, the gens isn't known for it's digitized sound playback (most sound effects in genesis games are synth - instruments from it's lib) so the quality of the digitized effects was about what I was expecting.

But the Gens has better digital sound quality than the Turbs.  Though the Turbs seems to be able to play more simultaneously than the Gens due to the design of the Turbs' sound hardware.  They're both beaten by the SNins, though.

[TurboXray]

Also, the gens isn't known for it's digitized sound playback (most sound effects in genesis games are synth - instruments from it's lib) so the quality of the digitized effects was about what I was expecting.

But the Gens has better digital sound quality than the Turbs.  Though the Turbs seems to be able to play more simultaneously than the Gens due to the design of the Turbs' sound hardware.  They're both beaten by the SNins, though.

Ehh? Unless you can show my specific examples, all the docs I read state the last channel in the yamaha chip wasn't meant for clean/clear digitized samples- it wasn't as simple as streaming 8bit values to the DAC at 7khz or higher. The SNES effects/voices in black Tigers comparison video(youtube) sound muffled like a lower kHz sample, albeit with filtering. I'm talking about all 3 of the original ports - not sure about the other snes and gen versions/updates/whatever.

 I checked out Super SFII on genesis and it runs in 256 pixel mode as well (I couldn't get very far though at the game had emulation problems/corruption).

[Joe Redifer]

Click here for Genesis voice examples recorded from real hardware by me.

_{► /crap/GenesisVoiceExamples.mp3}

Click here for TurboGrafx voice examples from CrackTiger (I assume from real hardware).

[Tatsujin]

it may would be interessting if someone can make some color counts of few of the same screens shots of each system

[CrackTiger]

it may would be interessting if someone can make some color counts of few of the same screens shots of each system

If I remember right, the Genesis screenshots are around 40, PCE around 80 and SNES 80 - 120.

[spenoza]

About the 68000, according to Wikipedia it's a CISC chip, 16-bit design with many 32-bit registers. Feeding data to 32-bit registers normally requires it be 32-bit data, which should be relatively large if code size is indeed not inconsequential. I know later 680x0 chips were true 32 bit, but the 68000 appears to be something of a bridge or crossover chip, being the first in the series and all. I've always been a little confused by that because the 68030 and on were 32-bit in and out, and early Macintosh code that ran on the 68000-based Macs was 32-bit code and ran fine on the later CPUs. I'm sure, of course, OS support played a role and I doubt the early stuff was written all in assembly, but the "bitness" of the original 68000 has always been a confusing issue.

[BonkThis]

I love the examples, CrackTiger, is there any chance you can throw up the arcade equivalent next to the 3 you already have for the ultimate comparrison?

[PhilBiker]

Click here for Genesis voice examples recorded from real hardware by me.

_{► /crap/GenesisVoiceExamples.mp3}

Click here for TurboGrafx voice examples from CrackTiger (I assume from real hardware).

You need to add some samples from the original "Fighting Street" and "Forgotten Worlds" to that TG16/PCE example.  Both Capcom and those have to be the absolute WORST!  "What strength but don't forget there are many guys like you all over the world!".

[spenoza]

I don't remember those Dynamite Headdy sample sounding so high quality on an actual console, or even in an emulator. What's up with that?

[nat]

Click here for Genesis voice examples recorded from real hardware by me.

_{► /crap/GenesisVoiceExamples.mp3}

Click here for TurboGrafx voice examples from CrackTiger (I assume from real hardware).

You need to add some samples from the original "Fighting Street" and "Forgotten Worlds" to that TG16/PCE example.  Both Capcom and those have to be the absolute WORST!  "What strength but don't forget there are many guys like you all over the world!".

The voice clips in Forgotten Worlds are fucking hilarious. I laugh every time I play the game (I played it last night so they're fresh on my mind). They never get old, I swear.

"Did you find the guy?"
"I'll finish you today for sure!"
"You cannot finish me with Paramecium alone!"

 

It's obviously the same guy changing the tone of his voice for each of the characaters. Does anyone know if those clips are lifted straight out of the arcade? Obviously a Turbo CD game is capable of so much more, but those FW clips are so horribly awesome I wouldn't have it any other way. Truly a video game classic...