Xanadu II Translation Development Blog

[SamIAm]

Time to play devil's advocate.

Some of the coloring principles you see in the original maps that are on the chopping block now are applied elsewhere in the game and might be worth saving.

For example, the pink/purple shading you see on the dark lines. It turns out that if you look around, you can find many examples throughout the game of purple being used to shade brown.

You'll probably have to save and enlarge these images to see it.



On the ship, in the very first screen where the player takes control.



The wood on the floors in the first village.



Here, it's very subtle. You'll have to look at the shadow on the rocks on the right.



Another similar case, on the left.



Here, it's not so subtle. Zoom in, and you'll see purple all over the place.



The original map again, just for reference.

Purple isn't the only shading color that's ever used with brown, don't get me wrong, but it's in there a lot.

In the case of the maps, changing this purple to grey, along with changing the blue vegetation to green and upping the contrast a little, probably isn't going to cause a disruption in the visual style. It could be that it would fool everyone. If it helps things look not-stupid on an LCD, then cool, we can go for it.

However, I think we really need a CRT test to say for sure.

The updated map again, for comparison:

[geise]

I dig the black behind the map. Makes a nice contrast. Awesome work!

[CrackTiger]

I've always wanted to try to fix the color in LoXII's overworld backgrounds, even though I appreciate the stylistic choice they made. The problem is that some of the funky colors are shared between radically different assets. So you could probably make small improvements within scenes here and there, but it will still be tricky striking the right balance.

Purples, greens and browns actually work well together when done right.

https://m.imgur.com/YqH1ILK?r

[esteban]

TRICKY KICK: Since palettes are shared.... it seems like an awfully complex puzzle to make things work in all the different scenes/screens across the entire game.

[elmer]

Wow, offhand, I don't recall ever knowing there was a map, though, it's been, maybe 10 years or so since I beat LoX2?

Hahaha ... yep, that Inventory screen is pretty hidden. I only found out about it when I accidentally pressed "right" when the cursor was at the edge of one of the upper boxes.

That's pretty poor UI design on Falcom's part, and there really should be an arrow icon on the border of the box.

You never really need to look at the Inventory, ever, in the game itself, so it's easy to just miss it.

The only thing that you can actually do on that screen is to look at a map, and the maps are a just a help, and aren't really needed in order to play the game.

Ship it!

Don't I wish!!! 

We're now rapidly approaching one year since I finished playing through both of the LoX games in English.

Now ... that time has given me the opportunity to do a whole bunch of little cleanups and polishing ... and we really did need to do the dub for these games, because it's the only way that players can see the whole story, but it's been a bit frustrating to be sitting on all of this for so long.


It's another reason why I want to do Anearth next.

We can get it all finished and done and released in a decent time frame ... and then afterwards someone can come along and organize a dub, if they wish to do so. There isn't even any lip-synching in that game that would need to be fixed.

[elmer]

I've always wanted to try to fix the color in LoXII's overworld backgrounds, even though I appreciate the stylistic choice they made. The problem is that some of the funky colors are shared between radically different assets. So you could probably make small improvements within scenes here and there, but it will still be tricky striking the right balance.

I understand where you're coming from, and that it's a personal preference for each player, but I actually like Falcom's color choices in the LoX2 worlds themselves!

They've gone for a low-contrast and subtle look to everything that seems to hint at the directions that artists would begin to take in the 32-bit era (IMHO).

It's a distinct change from the classic high-contrast colorful-and-saturated 16-bit look of LoX1 (and Anearth).

Honestly, I think that it's wonderful what they did, and I personally prefer it to Anearth's graphics on the PCE (now that I've been able to use that game's Debug Mode to see all of the levels).

[elmer]

Time to play devil's advocate.

OK!   

Some of the coloring principles you see in the original maps that are on the chopping block now are applied elsewhere in the game and might be worth saving.

For example, the pink/purple shading you see on the dark lines. It turns out that if you look around, you can find many examples throughout the game of purple being used to shade brown.

Absolutely. With the PCE's limited 512-color range, those shading colors are often the best choice.

And Falcom used them masterfully in the game itself, IMHO.

I certainly don't mind that pinkish shade being used on rocks and wood. You only have to go out into nature to see those reds in a lots of rocks and types of wood.

They make it look like a deliberate choice in their main graphics, and not just a limitation.

The original map again, just for reference.

Purple isn't the only shading color that's ever used with brown, don't get me wrong, but it's in there a lot.

Absolutely ... and where it works well as a stylistic choice, it's really great.

But, IMHO, it just doesn't work in the maps.

Take a look at what I've done to the actual colors that are used ...

  ORIGINAL                          MODIFIED
  R   G   B                         R   G   B
108  72  72 pink   (contour)       72  72  72 grey   (contour)
 72  72  72 grey   (contour)       72  72  36 brown  (contour)
 72  72  36 brown  (contour)       72  72   0 brown  (contour)

 72 108 108 blue   (river)         72 108 108 blue   (river)

 72 108 108 blue   (vegetation)    36 108  36 green  (vegetation)
 72 108  72 green  (vegetation)    72 108  36 green  (vegetation)
108 108  36 yellow (vegetation)   108 108  36 yellow (vegetation)


That's an absolutely minimal change to those contour lines.

I've just taken Falcom's colors, and I've moved them one partial-step down in brightness to create a little more contrast, and remove the pink chroma-shift from what is supposed to be a hand-drawn map, and where it looks inappropriate.

Two of the 3 colors are identical ... just shifted onto other parts of the shaded line.

You couldn't make a smaller change, and yet it makes a distinctly visible improvement to the map.

The blue river color hasn't changed at all, but it has been removed from the vegetation, and replaced with a  green.


Now ... looking at those green values side-by-side, yep I went a bit too far with those. There is now an extra step down in the shades which gives a bit too much contrast and saturation in the vegetation that doesn't quite fit with Falcom's faded-out look.


So, it's been well worth this exercise in justification, and I've changed the vegetation to now use just one new color, and to make the green more subtle.

It gives the same impression, but it definitely does fit in better with Falcom's look.

  ORIGINAL                          MODIFIED                          BETTER
  R   G   B                         R   G   B
 72 108 108 blue   (vegetation)    36 108  36 green  (vegetation)    72 108  36 green
 72 108  72 green  (vegetation)    72 108  36 green  (vegetation)    72 108  72 green
108 108  36 yellow (vegetation)   108 108  36 yellow (vegetation)   108 108  36 yellow

In the case of the maps, changing this purple to grey, along with changing the blue vegetation to green and upping the contrast a little, probably isn't going to cause a disruption in the visual style. It could be that it would fool everyone. If it helps things look not-stupid on an LCD, then cool, we can go for it.

However, I think we really need a CRT test to say for sure.

It will definitely help people with an LCD, and it's a minimal change.

I have no doubt at all that you'll find that it looks fine on a CRT. 

[ParanoiaDragon]

Not trying to derail a thread here, but, with me been listening to Dragon Slayer: Legend of Heroes in my care lately, it's made me think of 2 things.  One, I wish Falcom would make a (2D) remake of LoH 1&2 for consoles, as I just plain loved the first game! One of my top games in all creation!  Two, have you ever looked at the code for the LOH 2?  It'd be fantastic to have it translated, & quite frankly, as far as dubbing goes, would be stupidly easy to dub any returning char's to sound like the originals from the first game!   Either way, love the first game, I assume I'll love the second!

[Mathius]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but I have to give you guys extra love and respect. As the fans of these games that you obviously are you could've just sat in the background and waited for someone else to translate/dub these games so you could've enjoyed the experience as if they were a new release (like the rest of us get to do). It really is a sacrifice on your parts.

Thank you. Truly and from the heart.

[elmer]

Two, have you ever looked at the code for the LOH 2?  It'd be fantastic to have it translated, & quite frankly, as far as dubbing goes, would be stupidly easy to dub any returning char's to sound like the originals from the first game!

Nope, not in any serious way.

I just took a quick look at the English version of Dragon Slayer LOH1, and (from the CD) it looks like they've got a mix of sting tables and LZSS-compressed script strings.

It looks like the script strings contain some simple formatting code, but it's not a full script language.

So ... probably pretty much what Dave Shadoff was talking about in Ys IV and ED.

And it looks like the string/script blocks occur at the end of decompressed chunks, and that there may be free space.

I can't imagine LOH2 being much different. Sequels are usually based on the same engine as the 1st game, but with some improvements.


But ... I don't think that I'll be looking at it any further.

Translations involve an enormous amount of detailed and often boring work, and I just don't have any great personal interest in the game.

You need to hope that someone who really adores the game will come along ... or learn how to hack games yourself.

It doesn't look like NEC-US/TTi really did anything too complicated or impressive with the UI work on LOH1, so really all that you'd need to do is to do the same kind of string-swap that they did, and you should be fine.

You wouldn't want to do anything more than that, or it would stand out too much from the first game.

As the fans of these games that you obviously are you could've just sat in the background and waited for someone else to translate/dub these games so you could've enjoyed the experience as if they were a new release (like the rest of us get to do).

Thanks ... but remember, I'd never played either LoX game before working on the translations.

I did it so that I could get to see what all of the fuss was about! 

[ParanoiaDragon]

Ah, twas' just curious.  I have no time or brain power for coding/hacking, so, I shall await the random possibility of someone tackling it someday.  I'd really like all the Falcom TGCD games in english ....besides a multitude of other RPG's, like Anearth & the Cosmic Fantasy's. The 2 LoX games are at the top o' me list, so what you're doing already makes me do a happy dance, you may continue!

[Mathius]

What I mean is we get to experience the final product of all your team's labor: the improvements, voice acting, etc. I'm really very thankful. 

[ParanoiaDragon]

As am I, if I've never said it before, thank you Elmer & Sam!

[IvanBeavkov]

Falcom just posted this old artwork from Xanadu on twitter.

Old illustration (original size) 1994, like legendary Xanadu PC engine SUPER CD-ROM2
(@nihonfalcom) August 2, 2017

[Vimtoman]

Maybe they are doing an English conversion or anticipating this release......

[elmer]

Falcom just posted this old artwork from Xanadu on twitter.

As NightWolve kindly pointed out at the time, they posted it back in March as well ...

《懐かしのイメージイラストその二十三》1993年 「風の伝説ザナドゥ」PC-E CDR版 ARPG
熟練度：武器や防具に熟練度と呼ばれるパラメーター設定。熟練度が上がると武器や防具が強化され、武器は敵を攻撃した分だけ、防具はダメージを受けた分だけ熟練度が上昇する。 pic.twitter.com/jpZsbl3XFg

— 日本ファルコム (@nihonfalcom) March 27, 2017

They must really like that picture ... I know that I certainly do!

I like the comment from the person that saw that picture BITD and thought the game was about the girl in the middle, Sophia (which, in a way, it kinda is).

Maybe they are doing an English conversion or anticipating this release......

[deubeul]

Maybe they are doing an English conversion or anticipating this release......

That smiley could mean a lot of things...

[esteban]

THAT Xanadu illustration, tho...

 

[elmer]

That smiley could mean a lot of things...

.
.
.

or just nothing. It would be very cool of them if they were actually interested in, and looking forward to, the translation.

[Vimtoman]

Thought it was funny as I couldn't see them making a better conversion than Elmer's and SamIam's.

Whens the expected release date? Christmas?

[elmer]

Whens the expected release date? Christmas?

I have no idea.

Recording has been going a lot slower than we'd hoped, and we temporarily lost a couple of actors to summer vacations.

Good post-production and lip-sync will take time after all of the recordings are done.

Then there's final-testing to catch typos or mistakes that we've made.

I'll be really, really sad if we miss this year but, at this point, I just can't be sure.

[elmer]

Hahaha ... yep, that Inventory screen is pretty hidden. I only found out about it when I accidentally pressed "right" when the cursor was at the edge of one of the upper boxes.

That's pretty poor UI design on Falcom's part, and there really should be an arrow icon on the border of the box.

And so, now there is an arrow! 

But the next question comes, what color should the arrow be?

There are 2 potential choices in Falcom's color palette ... white, or orange.

SamIAm and I look at these screens, and have pretty-much the same reasoning for our personal preference ... but then come to opposite conclusions.

So, just for fun ... what do you guys think, and more importantly, can you justify/explain your preference in relation to Falcom's other use of colors on the screen? 

[CrackTiger]

White looks better and more natural, but could still be missed by some people.

Orange can't be missed.

[Michirin9801]

Can you make it change between white and orange every half second or so? I think that would be better than a static colour arrow...

[Mathius]

Can you make it change between white and orange every half second or so? I think that would be better than a static colour arrow...

This would be nice.

If that would be a troublesome addition than I second the Orange Vote. It's easier to see, and for whatever reason I like its "Vibe" better.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Yeah, Orange is not missable.  Maybe a slow blinking white/orange arrow as mentioned by Michirin!

[elmer]

Folks ...

1) Blinking isn't technically possible.

2) For gawd's sake, that would be lousy UI design! You're thinking of a modern UI with a mouse ... game UI designs with a joypad only flash/pulse/blink the current selection, especially in the mid 1990s when this game was made. Whatever happens, the color chosen has to fit in with the existing game, you can't go crazy!

So ... solid white or solid orange.

Nobody has yet actually advanced an argument as to how their choice would fit in with the existing color choices of the other on-screen elements, or why that color choice is preferable to the other.

C'mon folks ... this is an essay question, and not a multiple-choice! 


<edit>

In any translation project (or development project) that involves more than one person, there will eventually be a disagreement on some issue or another. How the people involved resolve that issue is going to be a great factor in determining how well they work together, and whether they will continue to work together.

So ... it's import that you can make an argument for the things that you believe in, and that you also know when you *don't* believe in something strongly enough to argue about it.

If you haven't noticed, SamIAm and I don't always agree on stuff. But we have managed to form a relationship where we can disagree, have a logical argument, and then come to a consensus and move on.

The color choice here is an example of something where you guys can consider a fairly small design/translation choice, and then figure out how you'd argue with your partner to put forward your personal preference.

[Michirin9801]

1) Blinking isn't technically possible.

2) For gawd's sake, that would be lousy UI design! You're thinking of a modern UI with a mouse ... game UI designs with a joypad only flash/pulse/blink the current selection, especially in the mid 1990s when this game was made. Whatever happens, the color chosen has to fit in with the existing game, you can't go crazy!

So ... solid white or solid orange.

If you say so...

In that case, while I like the look of the white arrow better, I'd say go for the orange one because, as it was said by more than one people before, it can't be missed, but not only that, there's already another orange arrow elsewhere on the screen, having this particular arrow also be orange would make the UI look more consistent you know what I mean?

[turboswimbz]

So here is my "deep but not that deep" take:

Falcom clearly expected the gamer to be familiar with the RPGs of the day (I'm guessing why no arrow at all).  As such it appears to me that they set up the menu screen to be intuitive that type of player. Health and resource information up top and other complex actions and menu items at the bottom.  Going with the blue background and white letters led them to use the complimentary Orange against the background to make anything they wanted to stand out do so.   

So the question becomes to me what is it that you and sam want the arrow to do.  stand back in the background as a reminder or is it to be a more obvious marker to the player to another screen.  there are merits to both.  As you want the player to be able to find it, but you also don't need attention called to every time after they know it's there.

I'm going to lean towards the Orange based both on its location on the screen and the fact that it donates an action the player can take.  and it just feels more intuitive to the design, almost like I don't have to think about it being an arrow, in the same way, you don't think hey there is a stop sign you just instantly stop.  that being said I find the white also appropriate and could be swayed perhaps to change my stance.

hope that helps. and clarifies my thought process.

[esteban]

L'arrow l'orange....

....because folks will have a 13% chance of noticing l'orange and 3% likelihood discerning its purpose (n=21).

The white arrow has a 4% chance of being noticed and a 0.000001% chance of inducing someone to manipulate it/figure out its raison d'etre (n=25).

METHODOLOGY: I showed these images to dozens of strangers in a public restroom at a local park. I recorded the results by keeping tally on a steamy mirror. At one point, I had to recreate the tally from memory (a patron inadvertently wiped away the data when he used the mirror to pluck some errant hairs from his eyebrows). Performing a linear regression analysis, I am 95% confident I recreated the data accurately without any errors (+/- 30% margin of error).

[Vimtoman]

Is an Orange arrow with a white surround possible?

[elmer]

Is an Orange arrow with a white surround possible?

Hahaha ... good try! 

Nope, there aren't enough pixels.

[turboswimbz]

L'arrow l'orange....

....because folks will have a 13% chance of noticing l'orange and 3% likelihood discerning its purpose (n=21).

The white arrow has a 4% chance of being noticed and a 0.000001% chance of inducing someone to manipulate it/figure out its raison d'etre (n=25).

METHODOLOGY: I showed these images to dozens of strangers in a public restroom at a local park. I recorded the results by keeping tally on a steamy mirror. At one point, I had to recreate the tally from memory (a patron inadvertently wiped away the data when he used the mirror to pluck some errant hairs from his eyebrows). Performing a linear regression analysis, I am 95% confident I recreated the data accurately without any errors (+/- 30% margin of error).

What was your slope value?

[esteban]

Let me see....

y=(m)x+blodia....

[NecroPhile]

I think it should be white because it's just a little hint that there's more to the menu.  You can play the entire game and never need to access the inventory, so a glaring orange billboard seems a bit much.

[esteban]

I think it should be white because it's just a little hint that there's more to the menu.  You can play the entire game and never need to access the inventory, so a glaring orange billboard seems a bit much.

SADLY, it's still very easy to miss the tiny orange triangle.

So, ORANGE IT IS.

Thank you.

[NecroPhile]

Orange shouldn't be used because it's associated with Trump.

If I press right on the d-pad, will he grab me by the pussy?  I can't take that chance.

[esteban]

Orange shouldn't be used because it's associated with Trump.

If I press right on the d-pad, will he grab me by the pussy?  I can't take that chance.

Dammit. I cannot provide a counter-argument.

[elmer]

Going with the blue background and white letters led them to use the complimentary Orange against the background to make anything they wanted to stand out do so.   

So the question becomes to me what is it that you and sam want the arrow to do.  stand back in the background as a reminder or is it to be a more obvious marker to the player to another screen.  there are merits to both.  As you want the player to be able to find it, but you also don't need attention called to every time after they know it's there.

I'm going to lean towards the Orange based both on its location on the screen and the fact that it donates an action the player can take.  and it just feels more intuitive to the design, almost like I don't have to think about it being an arrow, in the same way, you don't think hey there is a stop sign you just instantly stop.  that being said I find the white also appropriate and could be swayed perhaps to change my stance.

I think that's an excellent summary of the situation and the choices! 

I think it should be white because it's just a little hint that there's more to the menu.  You can play the entire game and never need to access the inventory, so a glaring orange billboard seems a bit much.

And this is basically the argument for using the white arrow.

It's the smallest change that we can make that *might* give the player a clue that there's more to see if they press right on the joypad when they're at the edge of that part of the menu.

In that case, while I like the look of the white arrow better, I'd say go for the orange one because, as it was said by more than one people before, it can't be missed, but not only that, there's already another orange arrow elsewhere on the screen, having this particular arrow also be orange would make the UI look more consistent you know what I mean?

And this is the argument for using the orange arrow.

Falcom are using the color white for "status/information/deselected", and orange for "current-selection/selected/press-this".

They are already using the same orange arrow on the switch that changes between the ICON and CFG buttons (i.e. the menu changes when you press that button).

So an orange arrow already has a defined meaning in Falcom's UI design, and putting another orange arrow on the border is consistent usage.


A white arrow is never used anywhere else in the game to signify anything. It has no defined meaning. But perhaps you could consider the white "deselected" buttons as giving enough of a clue.


I do understand the idea of making the smallest *visible* change in order to give the player a clue, especially when, as Necromancer says, you can play through the whole game without ever going to the Inventory screen.

The problem is (from my POV), that a white arrow is actually a *bigger* change to Falcom's UI, because it has no meaning, and doesn't fit in with their design scheme, wheras the orange arrow looks like it could have been a part of the original screen.


At the end of the day, I don't think that it really matters which color we use; but I strongly favor consistency in meaning and operation, and so lean towards the orange arrow. It's just (IMHO) clearer what it means.

And now that I've said that ... the white arrow is what is currently implemented in the game! 

[turboswimbz]

They are already using the same orange arrow on the switch that changes between the ICON and CFG buttons (i.e. the menu changes when you press that button).

So an orange arrow already has a defined meaning in Falcom's UI design, and putting another orange arrow on the border is consistent usage.A white arrow is never used anywhere else in the game to signify anything. It has no defined meaning. But perhaps you could consider the white "deselected" buttons as giving enough of a clue.The problem is (from my POV), that a white arrow is actually a *bigger* change to Falcom's UI, because it has no meaning, and doesn't fit in with their design scheme, whereas the orange arrow looks like it could have been a part of the original screen.

This is what I Meant by it seems more intuitive.  But the white is nice too.  I appreciate both yours and Sams attention to detail. can't wait to play.

[Bardoly]

I think that I have to fall on the "Orange seems to fit the menu color scheme better,and be much more visable." camp.  I can see the argument for white, but I just think orange is better here.

[seieienbu]

I like the orange arrow both for consistency with the second arrow down below and for the fact that it really pops against the white and blue.  I don't feel that either looks out of place however and also don't feel so strongly about my opinion that either decision is problematic.

[spenoza]

I think the way to approach this is to imagine that you have a Falcom style guide in front of you. Which would be most consistent with this hypothetical style guide?

[haightc]

It seems like orange to me is the most logical choice, text/items in default state are white(ish).   The is intended to something and make it active/select the cursor should be the same color as the active color state, similar to a highlighter.

[esteban]

Excellent, it is settled then: Orange.

Thank you, all.

[Magister]

So how goes things on this project?

[NightWolve]

Whatever happens, it'll be some time in 2019. The team is stuck on dubbing, they don't provide further details than that. I'd say check back summer 2019 to see if progress is made.

[tobasoft]

that is such a bummer. this is by far my most anticipated project translation wise (aside from emerald dragon of course)

[dejan07]

Everything will be just fine, don't worry guys 

[Mathius]

I have it on good authority that this project hasn't been abandoned by the dev team. One of them is a new father so it has put the whole thing on hold temporarily. No need to worry.