UperGrafx PC Engine 720p DVI Widget

[mackdanger]

Just came across this on Twitter and thought I would share. Someone developed a plug in device for 720p PC Engine output. It is completely plug and play and requires no modding. It is currently being demoed at March Rabbit in Akihabara. I have to run and do some errands so I don't have time to translate right now, so I will add more info if necessary when I get home. Here is a link to the article and the developer's Twitter.

akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/news/20160425_754829.html

This is a device that can add a DVI (to-HDMI) output function to the home video game console "PC Engine" released in 1987 without modification. You will be able to play games with higher image quality than the analog AV cable.

https://twitter.com/upergrafx

[ToyMachine78]

Damn! Did they dig that poor pc engine out of the toilet?

[Digi.k]

Damn! Did they dig that poor pc engine out of the toilet ?

wow!

I am certainly interested in this.  I wonder how would this work for CD systems tho...

[johnnykonami]

This is really awesome.  I wonder how it looks in motion?

[dshadoff]

I sort of know the guy who is creating this (friend of a friend).

1. My understanding is that he's aiming to turn this into a product.  No idea when or how much though.

2. Because it taps into the external bus, it won't work on CDROM games (because the external bus is not exposed on any PCE CDROM machine).

3. It also acts as backup RAM, and because it uses non-volatile FeRAM, the values won't disappear in your lifetime.  A USB port allows one to read the Backup RAM into a computer, too.

4. I heard that as of a few months ago, there was about 1 frame skip every 5 to 6 seconds (slightly jarring), due to NTSC refresh frequency versus HDTV frequency differing by a very small amount.  Other than that, perfectly smooth.  His twitter seems to imply that he's been fiddling with refresh recently and improved it since I last heard.  Not sure if it's completely solved though; one might need to change the internal 21.xxx MHz clock in the PC Engine to completely solve that.

Personally, I'd love it as a mod to a CDROM machine, but I'd probably buy it (if I still played on original equipment).

-Dave

[CrackTiger]

Tom made a thread about this a while back.

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=20148.msg437045#msg437045

[Joe Redifer]

Does it have the UperGrafx/720p logo on the side of the screen at all times? Sure looks like it.

[Vimtoman]

Damn! Did they dig that poor pc engine out of the toilet?

Shite looking PCE

[NecroPhile]

85% new!

'Tis a neat project in theory, but no CD support makes it a non-starter for me.

[Trenton_net]

85% new!

'Tis a neat project in theory, but no CD support makes it a non-starter for me.

I agree. Without CD-ROM support, I'd rather just mod an IFU-30 or a DUO for RGB out. Sure, you need something like a Framemister or a monitor that can use RGB, but it's more flexible than getting a box that only works for PCE gaming.

[ToyMachine78]

85% new!

'Tis a neat project in theory, but no CD support makes it a non-starter for me.

I guess antique enthusiasts would call that patina lol

[technozombie]

I guess antique enthusiasts would call that patina lol

Cue the incoming Pawn Stars memes.

[esteban]

I guess antique enthusiasts would call that patina lol

Cue the incoming Pawn Stars memes.

Antiques Road Show.

Our demographic here skews to older folks who watched PBS at various points in their lives.

[ToyMachine78]

I guess antique enthusiasts would call that patina lol

Cue the incoming Pawn Stars memes.

Antiques Road Show.

Our demographic here skews to older folks who watched PBS at various points in their lives.

Lol Can't argue there

[technozombie]

This box really doesn't seem practical. Why not just build one that would accept rgb/scart/jp21 in addition to plugging directly into the system? It could be cheaper alternative to an xrgb mini.

[Duo_R]

That looks like the same project box i used for my RGB box. Just painted black. The underside matches up almost exact (cant see it here).

[Keith Courage]

Sounds like it just has a built in scart RGB upscaler in the box. This device I use can go from 720-1080 with my pc engine. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-to-HDMI-Video-With-3-5mm-and-Coaxial-Audio-Converter-Box-1080P-Upscaler-/391441849877?hash=item5b23c09e15:g:XnQAAOSwAuNW4O9G Also has the very minor shutter every 5-6 seconds if the game is scrolling very fast without any pause anywhere.

[Duo_R]

Yeah I use the same one.

[dshadoff]

Sounds like it just has a built in scart RGB upscaler in the box. This device I use can go from 720-1080 with my pc engine. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-to-HDMI-Video-With-3-5mm-and-Coaxial-Audio-Converter-Box-1080P-Upscaler-/391441849877?hash=item5b23c09e15:g:XnQAAOSwAuNW4O9G Also has the very minor shutter every 5-6 seconds if the game is scrolling very fast without any pause anywhere.

I'm pretty sure SCART is still based on the analogue output of the PC Engine.

The upergrafx uses only the digital signals, bypasses the RGB ADCs, and stores the digital values into a frame buffer, and re-synthesizes the output to the different scanning format based on the framebuffer in digital format.

[SignOfZeta]

That would be a huge difference, totally.

Bit either way, it's a lot of bullshit to go through and still get frame drops. The crap you flat panel guys put up with just to avoid having a CRT is nuts.

[NightWolve]

The upergrafx uses only the digital signals, bypasses the RGB ADCs, and stores the digital values into a frame buffer, and re-synthesizes the output to the different scanning format based on the framebuffer in digital format.

Pretty cool, I didn't know about this. Would like to see him offer a guide/means towards tapping the needed digital signals out of a CD system eventually but that's interesting the signals could be tapped all along from the HuCard-only systems without physical modding/changes.

[Joe Redifer]

Does the EXT port provide the digital signals directly from the PPU?

[Johnpv]

I'm not sure about the refresh rates being different causing 1 frame drops.  Since the refresh rates wouldn't be any different.  The ATSC standard which is the HDTV standard supports multiple refresh rates, including the refresh rates from NTSC.

Does the EXT port provide the digital signals directly from the PPU?

That's a good question everything I've seen seems to point to it just sending the RGB and sync signal.  The dude at db-elec might be able to answer that question since he makes a Grafx Booster for the Turbo Grafx (and I think core grafx) that allows you to get RGB, and SVideo out, and he does so by tapping into the ext port.   

http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/

[Duo_R]

This product is simply taking RGB and then running that to a Sony CXA encoder that coverts it to S-video signal.

I'm curious what the Ubergrafx is using, video bus lines?

I'm not sure about the refresh rates being different causing 1 frame drops.  Since the refresh rates wouldn't be any different.  The ATSC standard which is the HDTV standard supports multiple refresh rates, including the refresh rates from NTSC.

Does the EXT port provide the digital signals directly from the PPU?

That's a good question everything I've seen seems to point to it just sending the RGB and sync signal.  The dude at db-elec might be able to answer that question since he makes a Grafx Booster for the Turbo Grafx (and I think core grafx) that allows you to get RGB, and SVideo out, and he does so by tapping into the ext port.   

http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/

[TurboXray]

I'm not sure about the refresh rates being different causing 1 frame drops.  Since the refresh rates wouldn't be any different.  The ATSC standard which is the HDTV standard supports multiple refresh rates, including the refresh rates from NTSC.

Does the EXT port provide the digital signals directly from the PPU?

That's a good question everything I've seen seems to point to it just sending the RGB and sync signal.  The dude at db-elec might be able to answer that question since he makes a Grafx Booster for the Turbo Grafx (and I think core grafx) that allows you to get RGB, and SVideo out, and he does so by tapping into the ext port.   

http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/

The PCE doesn't output 59.94hz or an even 60hz. It's 60.xx for one mode, and 59.xx for the other mode (The PCE has 262 scanline mode and 263 scanline mode, and the system doesn't adjust for this extra scanline time). So it's possible not all TVs would display the refresh rate in digital format natively, vs something like their analog inputs. A frame blend instead of the frame drop, for that single phase difference when it comes up (every so many seconds), should do the trick.

[wilykat]

Could the game be programmed to switch between mode at each field? So when it's combined on video output, it'd be true 525 lines for proper NTSC standard?  Or is switching video mode a little slow to do in the vertical banking?

[TurboXray]

Could the game be programmed to switch between mode at each field? So when it's combined on video output, it'd be true 525 lines for proper NTSC standard?  Or is switching video mode a little slow to do in the vertical banking?

It can. And since you can generate an hsync interrupt on any scanline, which makes this easier from a timing perspective. But what's missing is the equalization pulses that identify even/odd fields - so it's not a true interlaced signal. I've tried this on some HD sets and they didn't like the signal much. SDTV sets though, never had a problem with this trick on the PCE (demo, others have done this too - Ccovell).

[Joe Redifer]

I wonder if the Framemeister would hate it. It can't stand the interlaced mode on Sonic 2 and Ys 3 on the Genesis.

[TurboXray]

I wonder if the Framemeister would hate it. It can't stand the interlaced mode on Sonic 2 and Ys 3 on the Genesis.

Does it mess up?

[Joe Redifer]

Big time. Normal interlacing is fine, but I guess maybe the Genesis' timing isn't exactly what it needs to be for the scaler to understand.

[TurboXray]

Have you tried Chris Covell's PCE interlacing demo with it?

[Joe Redifer]

I don't think I have, no. In fact I don't think I ever downloaded that one.

[ccovell]

But what's missing is the equalization pulses that identify even/odd fields - so it's not a true interlaced signal. I've tried this on some HD sets and they didn't like the signal much. SDTV sets though, never had a problem with this trick on the PCE (demo, others have done this too - Ccovell).

Can these equalization pulses be "simulated", either by switching the VCE/VDC on/off quickly at this time, or by putting noise on the video line/GND some other way (square waves through all 6 sound DACs, for instance)?

[Johnpv]

GameTechUS got one of these to try out and I guess give feedback to the developer about.

Also HOLY SHIT 40,000 YEN!  That's insanely expensive, buy a framemeister for less.  It also works on a TG16, which makes sense since the pin out on that back port should probably be the same.

[Digi.k]

A bit pricey buy I hope they can get it out on the market a lot cheaper..

/upergrafxscreen.jpg

[GaijinD]

HDCP? Why would you want to add copy protection to the signal? I've never heard of a TV requiring it.

[mickcris]

they need to get rid of the bars on the side with advertising of their product name.  no one is going to want to buy this at that price with its current design.

[schweaty]

they need to get rid of the bars on the side with advertising of their product name.  no one is going to want to buy this at that price with its current design.

the designer said in the comments the product name bars were just for the demo units they sent out

[ginoscope]

Way too expensive and no CD support is a show stopper for me. 

I'm not sure what is the obsession with playing old games on a HDTV.  I'm all about RGB and love image quality but I find myself using my CRT and s-video more than I do the xrgb mini on the 24" LCD.  People can argue space but a decent 20" CRT does not take up that much space.

[wildfruit]

Praise be for rgb scart TVs by the bucket load.

[thesteve]

Ok lets answer a few questions
The video bus is available on the back
The scan timing is generated by a clock divider in the 6260
the pixel clock is also a divider in the 6260 sent to the 6270
Pixels are sent real time in 9bit from the 6270 and the 6260 assigns the colors to the data

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

[thesteve]

Currently working on new timing generator for the system to generate interlaced output

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

[CrackTiger]

Way too expensive and no CD support is a show stopper for me. 

I'm not sure what is the obsession with playing old games on a HDTV.  I'm all about RGB and love image quality but I find myself using my CRT and s-video more than I do the xrgb mini on the 24" LCD.  People can argue space but a decent 20" CRT does not take up that much space.

My 13" RGB monitor doesn't feel small and fits on the corner of my desk. I still only use it as a novelty or for arcade games (especially ceryical ones)

[NightWolve]

GameTechUS got one of these to try out and I guess give feedback to the developer about.

Also HOLY SHIT 40,000 YEN!  That's insanely expensive, buy a framemeister for less.  It also works on a TG16, which makes sense since the pin out on that back port should probably be the same.

OK, in light of the new competing PCE Super SD System 3 product, I was reminded of this Japanese DVI/HDMI supporting one.

Notes:

* http://www.upergrafx.com
* https://twitter.com/upergrafx
* It's called Uper Grafx 720p Booster.
* Output port is DVI, so you need a DVI to HDMI cable, audio is included so you don't need separate RCA connections.
* Pricing according to GameTechUS was hovering at $368 or 40,000 YEN, not good...
* From looking at the Japanese website with Google Translate, it appears CD image support has been added. It needs images made with CD Manipulator. http://www.upergrafx.com/cdrom2_setup_ja
* There's some debate if it taps a digital signal or does a good job of encoding the analog RGB back to digital before tripling the resolution from 240p to 720p. Better be all digital for the kind of money you're looking at! States it's full digital on their Twitter.

Tough call on this one, but definitely has potential. I just want the board that triples the resolution and encodes to DVI/HDMI like what GameTech is talking about. I hope further progress is made on it.

[NightWolve]

http://www.upergrafx.com/faq_en

Q3.Is it possible to install on a DUO internally?
A3. There are around 60 connections that would need to be made so it's not really feasible.
The lines that are required are all over the PCB and on the legs of fine pitch components. We think the possibility of successfully installing it would be very low.

Hahaha!!!! OK, they answered the Duo question...

Q6.Why not use a HDMI connector?
A6. HDMI certification is expensive and the signal being output isn't strictly HDMI compliant.

Ah, I see, so DVI to HDMI cable it is.

[CZroe]

I'm not sure about the refresh rates being different causing 1 frame drops.  Since the refresh rates wouldn't be any different.  The ATSC standard which is the HDTV standard supports multiple refresh rates, including the refresh rates from NTSC.

Does the EXT port provide the digital signals directly from the PPU?

That's a good question everything I've seen seems to point to it just sending the RGB and sync signal.  The dude at db-elec might be able to answer that question since he makes a Grafx Booster for the Turbo Grafx (and I think core grafx) that allows you to get RGB, and SVideo out, and he does so by tapping into the ext port.   

http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/

Their description here says digital:

The FAQ on the English site says that it's missing the extra graphics when used for SuperGrafx games, which tells me that they aren't interfacing with the muxed analog RGB.

GameTechUS got one of these to try out and I guess give feedback to the developer about.

Also HOLY SHIT 40,000 YEN!  That's insanely expensive, buy a framemeister for less.  It also works on a TG16, which makes sense since the pin out on that back port should probably be the same.

Said 35,000¥ ($316 USD) when I checked yesterday so it seems they've had s price drop. That would still be crazy expensive if we didn't also factor that it now has an optical drive emulator (ODE) for CD-ROM^2 games. The Super SD System 3 is also around $300 for that functionality and it does not do digital video.

Way too expensive and no CD support is a show stopper for me. 

I'm not sure what is the obsession with playing old games on a HDTV.  I'm all about RGB and love image quality but I find myself using my CRT and s-video more than I do the xrgb mini on the 24" LCD.  People can argue space but a decent 20" CRT does not take up that much space.

I would agree with your first statement except it looks like they intended to add an ODE all along. ;)

Anyway, I completely disagree about RGB CRTs though, but not strictly in comparison to HDMI/DVI. It comes down to being able to connect/use your console with whatever set you encounter and being able to do so in the best quality the display supports.

RGB CRTs simply are not available in the USA where component and S-video monitors are plentiful (LCDs and CRTs). I always chuckle when Jason Rauch (GameTechUS) asks why anyone wants S-video or component... while sitting in front of his junk PVM that he has been unable to fix or replace for years (shifted purple). Kevin Horton (Kevtris), who has done a PVM repair video of his own, even stopped by to look at it. He's the perfect example of why component and S-video are better options for many people and yet he said it again in the recent video where he and Voultar critique Doujindance's old Duo mod work.

Heck, with a collection of Wega Trinitron, HD Trinitron, and XBR SFP Trinitron TVs, I have some of the best consumer CRTs ever made and yet I still can't properly utilize RGB. I probably can't use this on those TVs either because their HDMI/DVI inputs are notoriously picky: PS3 HDMI output works in 480p, 720p, or 1080i, yet Hi-Def NES only works in 480p and UltraHDMI doesn't work at all (so much for Kevtris and MarshallH enduring compatibility/compliance with that HDMI signal analyzer!). *sigh* Component and S-video work gloriously.

An OSSC will have the same issues with PCE/TG16 signals as it does for SNES signals. At least the UpperGrafx can buffer one frame to improve compatibility.

A 24" flat panel and a 20 CRT is not really a fair comparison because the sizes are only appropriate for personal use (these days). Perhaps I have a different perspective because my collection is shared with my twin brother, but neither of those are sized for playing 3p Secret of Mana or Mario Kart 64 Battle Mode in the living room when you have friends over. I can just disconnect my N64 and take it to the XBR LCD when friends arrive but I don't have that freedom with RGB. Even with that scenario, I feel that a retro system worth playing deserves a spot in the living room. It's literally what my living room home theater is for. I mean, screw television programming! I'd rather play some games on that XBR beast. ;)

This has always been the case. In 2003 I returned a 30" $900 Samsung CRT HDTV and paid $2,300 for a different 30" CRT HDTV simply because 4:3 480p GameCube games were forced to stretch to 16:9 on the first one. I bought that HDTV specifically to play both 4:3 and 16:9 GCN and XBOX games in 480p. Heck, one of the first things I did was play around with Goldeneye 007's anamorphic widescreen modes... using S-video. I don't regret the purchase one bit as the only PVM/BVMs that compare have the exact same tube and this thing has served me well for gaming almost 15 years (finicky support for home brew digital output mods, not withstanding).

Currently working on new timing generator for the system to generate interlaced output

Awesome! Any updates on this?

GameTechUS got one of these to try out and I guess give feedback to the developer about.

Also HOLY SHIT 40,000 YEN!  That's insanely expensive, buy a framemeister for less.  It also works on a TG16, which makes sense since the pin out on that back port should probably be the same.

OK, in light of the new competing PCE Super SD System 3 product, I was reminded of this Japanese DVI/HDMI supporting one.

Notes:

* http://www.upergrafx.com
* https://twitter.com/upergrafx
* It's called Uper Grafx 720p Booster.
* Output port is DVI, so you need a DVI to HDMI cable, audio is included so you don't need separate RCA connections.
* Pricing according to GameTechUS was hovering at $368 or 40,000 YEN, not good...
* From looking at the Japanese website with Google Translate, it appears CD image support has been added. It needs images made with CD Manipulator. http://www.upergrafx.com/cdrom2_setup_ja
* There's some debate if it taps a digital signal or does a good job of encoding the analog RGB back to digital before tripling the resolution from 240p to 720p. Better be all digital for the kind of money you're looking at! States it's full digital on their Twitter.

Tough call on this one, but definitely has potential. I just want the board that triples the resolution and encodes to DVI/HDMI like what GameTech is talking about. I hope further progress is made on it.

If that 35,000¥, $316 USD price I see is right, it seems that there has been a price drop.

No question about the video interface though: It's definitely digital. See the description here:

Also, their English FAQ says that SuperGrafx games are missing their extra graphics, which would not happen if they were simply converting analog RGB.

[CrackTiger]

Said 35,000¥ ($316 USD) when I checked yesterday so it seems they've had s price drop. That would still be crazy expensive if we didn't also factor that it now has an optical drive emulator (ODE) for CD-ROM^2 games. The Super SD System 3 is also around $300 for that functionality and it does not do digital video.

I thought that the digital video was too messed up to be worth using? A setup that limits you to only hdtv isn't as valuable for 240p consoles, since RGB can be used for virtually perfect video on crt or digital hdtvs.

Last time I read notes about this, the CD emulation was fairly poor. If it's not 99% perfect then you can't even compare it to the SSS3 for that isolated feature. Nevermind what else the SSS3 does.


You don't need a crt with RGB in North America. My 32+" Wega displaying RGB transcoded to component looks better than small RGB and arcade monitors.

[CZroe]

Edit: Something glitches horribly in Tapatalk. All I did was launch it and it started posting something!

[CZroe]

Said 35,000¥ ($316 USD) when I checked yesterday so it seems they've had s price drop. That would still be crazy expensive if we didn't also factor that it now has an optical drive emulator (ODE) for CD-ROM^2 games. The Super SD System 3 is also around $300 for that functionality and it does not do digital video.

I thought that the digital video was too messed up to be worth using? A setup that limits you to only hdtv isn't as valuable for 240p consoles, since RGB can be used for virtually perfect video on crt or digital hdtvs.

No more "messed up" than SNES and PCE/TG16 through OSSC. Also, they've since enabled a 1 frame buffer. You get the same issues when you enable direct mode in UltraHDMI and other similar projects too but buffering solves the problem with less than/up to one frame of lag.

Last time I read notes about this, the CD emulation was fairly poor. If it's not 99% perfect then you can't even compare it to the SSS3 for that isolated feature. Nevermind what else the SSS3 does.

Well, I'm actively absorbing all of this info now and that sounds like exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. Where'd you hear it? I do see Arcade Card games being played on their YouTube channel, though I still don't know if the actual card is required.

You don't need a crt with RGB in North America. My 32+" Wega displaying RGB transcoded to component looks better than small RGB and arcade monitors.

Exactly. Component is more useful than RGB for the sets available in the USA. No discernible quality difference with a HUGE discernible usability difference (Heck, we probably have the same TV... is an an HS510 or the later one with HDMI?).

With RGB transcoded to component and S-video, I can take my modded console from CRT to modern flat panel, and back again and have the best of both worlds (RGB-class image on some displays, best available on others), so it's amusing to see GameTechUS and Voultar wonder why anyone wants component/S-video... with the same busted PVM he's been forced to use for years sitting right beside him... AS they actively remove S-video and composite from a Duo RX. What fallback does that leave when unchained from an RGB monitor? Junk.

The DVI output for this thing would give me even better results on the flat panel without needing to hope for good 240p handling. Also, 720p will integer scale to 4K if you disable all of your TV's image processing (game mode, disable overscan compensation, no interpolated frames, etc). A 720p digital to digital PCE/TG16 interface would be much appreciated among people who just want the best connection for the widest variety of potential monitors.

[MobiusStripTech]

The Duo RX doesn't do S-Video natively... So not sure what you are talking about there.

Component has similar limitations as RGB in the US. RGB requires a PVM or modified CRT obviously, but 240p component still needs either a CRT or a tv that actually supports it. Of all the Tv's in my house of which there are 7 only my 2010 Sony LED and my PVM support 240p component. My brand new 2017 OLED doesn't even have component hookups.

In the modern age we are going to be reliant on some kind of converter to continue to use old consoles. Personally I think the Upergrafx is going to have a small market. Glad to see the price has come down finally though because the old price was insanely high.