Fake Games

Ravij · 11/24/2007, 01:04 AM

Hi everyone - maybe this has been asked before, but.....

I was reading a previous thread about there being fake copies of Sapphire in circulation.
My question is, are there any other games known to have been faked? Are there any fake Hu Cards?

The reason I was wondering is that some sellers on EBay seem to have a lot of new/sealed games, and it seems strange to think that there would be so many, 15+ years after they were last made?

thanks,

Ravi

SuperDeadite · 11/24/2007, 01:40 AM

There are many bootleg HuCards out there. Most come from China though, and were constructed with very low quality. And
with very little knowledge of the actual product. So spotting a bootleg is easy. The Sapphire bootlegs however came from
Europe (Germany I think), and these were designed by someone who knew about Sapphire and what it was worth. He went to
great lengths to make it appear as original as he could. Being a very rare game, most people have never seen an original. If you
know what to look for, spotting the fake is easy. But crappy digital pictures on auction sites can make this difficult, especially
for people who know the name "Sapphire" but nothing else.

Tatsujin · 11/24/2007, 01:45 AM

there are some other fake/pirate games likte the 4 in 1 hucards etc., but beside of the sapphire there are no other counterfeits known, which where made such professional in terms of copying the original.

shubibiman · 11/24/2007, 03:40 AM

I know it can seem surprising but you can still find loads ogf new and sealed games in Japan. I personnaly own about 20 sealed games (and I even opened a few others

).
Apart from Sapphire, the only counterfeits are "PC Games".

Tatsujin · 11/24/2007, 03:54 AM

oh yes. if you just walk through super potato or retro friends, you can find hunderts and hunderts of sealed games there!

elnino · 11/24/2007, 01:28 PM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 11/24/2007, 03:54 AMoh yes. if you just walk through super potato or retro friends, you can find hunderts and hunderts of sealed games there!

True, even games like Dracula X can be found in sealed condition.

Ravij · 11/24/2007, 02:40 PM

Thanks guys - have bought quite a few 'New' games, so it always made me wonder if they were real, I guess they are

I never really pay over the odds for my games, except Tatsujin and Magical Chase, which were a bit more costly!

1010101 · 11/24/2007, 03:15 PM

You know, the collector in me understands why you'd want authentic, sealed games, but the gamer in me insists that if I were to collect sealed games, I'd have to by an open copy of each, too. Is that typically the case for those of you who collect sealed games?

And on a related note, do any of the PCE/TG hardware setups ever have problems those bootlegs of Sapphire, or do they play as well as the originals? I ask because I know some people have trouble with CD-Rs, and I can't help but wonder if unofficial pressed discs have issues, too.

PCEngineHell · 11/24/2007, 07:31 PM

The supposed bootleg of Sapphire runs fine. I think its funny on that one,as Hudson themselves would not confirm or deny it as being legit or bootleg,and the parts of the reasoning behind it being a boot,like its jewel casings white part texture being off,or the center of the disc not being hazy and thin being absurd. I have plenty of Pc Engine cd titles with the same type of inner white plastic casing and thick clear center on the disc.Anyone who wants to really debate it as being fake,are wasting time because the only person/people who can ultimately decide that title on the Care4Data run are Hudson themselves.

To its defense though it would be entirely feasible of Hudson to use a different pressing plant other then the original one used for their disc as this would have been a second run late in the game and they would not have been able to use the normal pressing plant as it was probably retooled or closed down after no longer being used for Hudson or other companies for Pc Engine titles.....This would also explain any color differences in the packaging. Same issue was common in laser disc pressings when the 2nd runs on up were by different plants.

When you want to do a second run,at the best quality at the lowest cost your going to use whatever method you can to do so,even out of the country pressing plants. The other thing is it would be alot more believable if it came out of Asia,where bootlegging was rampant. This pressing did not come out of Asia.For that matter it makes no sense for a bootlegger to copy things like the post card. Thats a extra cost that wouldn't have been needed in a bootleg.

Either way it seems like even the "bootleg" copy is now uncommon,and fetches $60-100 from people the last time I seen it sold,with a average asking price of $80.

None of the above that I said make the game legit either,but the point is there is more defense facts involved making it sound like a legit run then there is making it sound like a bootleg,with the major one being Hudson would not confirm it as being a fake.

Tatsujin · 11/25/2007, 12:01 AM

rolf..not that story again.

those "Care4Data" sapphire are bootlegs, and that 100%ly! those guys who wrote once, that even hudson can't find anything strange on that product are liars, coz hudson never did! and exactly those people want make other people believe they will buy a legit 2nd print, becasue they want make good and easy money!!

and if this was a legit run from hudson, so why the most of the copies where sold on ebay oversea to ignoramus and not at jap. stores itself? the only copie i've ever seen in the last 5 years here in tokyo was in a show case of counterfeits at the entrance of the new trader 2 (not for sale of course).

and that so called "out of the country pressing plant" was in switzerland. may be not the cheapest place on earth to let produce anything

PCEngineHell · 11/25/2007, 01:56 AM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 11/25/2007, 12:01 AMrolf..not that story again.

those "Care4Data" sapphire are bootlegs, and that 100%ly! those guys who wrote once, that even hudson can't find anything strange on that product are liars, coz hudson never did! and exactly those people want make other people believe they will buy a legit 2nd print, becasue they want make good and easy money!!

and if this was a legit run from hudson, so why the most of the copies where sold on ebay oversea to ignoramus and not at jap. stores itself? the only copie i've ever seen in the last 5 years here in tokyo was in a show case of counterfeits at the entrance of the new trader 2 (not for sale of course).

and that so called "out of the country pressing plant" was in switzerland. may be not the cheapest place on earth to let produce anything

For what its worth Hudson did not confirm them as being bootlegs in the 3 emails I sent to them back when this subject came up in 2005. This was back when I had hunted down all the info for Care4Datas pressing plants and contact info. Not sure if you were around here back then. I think Keranu emailed Hudson too. The subject got dropped after a bit.

After haggling with Hudson I got a reply from the 2nd and 3rd emails sent,after providing links to the items pics and pics of a letter a guy had ,supposedly from Hudson,along with links to the threads we had going. In Hudsons first email it was something along the lines of thanking me for my interest in their past works or some nonsense,and they would review the material and try to reach me back if they had anything further to provide.

I was surprised I got a reply at all from them. But alas they did not get back to me.
After 4 or 5 weeks I emailed them again. After like a week they replied for the last time.

In their last email they bluntly stated that in the current situation they could not confirm or deny the pressings,and would not go into details as to why,and thanked me for my interest and continued support. It was prob one of the most generic replies I have ever gotten from a company in my life.

Due to this I'll consider it a up in the air subject,as in the end its Hudsons game,and its up to them to decide,and it is doubtful they ever will one way or the other... They made it apparent they honestly could care less.

Tatsujin · 11/25/2007, 03:08 AM

so, hudson never confirmed that matter? may be you once asked yourself, why not?

may be they just give a shit on it 10 years later. or the secretary which received your mails, didn't know exactly what to do with them?

why it should give hudson so much work to confirm your mails properly, if it's not because the people which received your mail didn't know how to handle?

if those copies are really produced on hudsons wish, they could've send you an immediately and clear answer with a "YES" easly!

and then again, why those copies where printed at a company located in swiss?

and last but not least. the producer of the game would certainly had have the original drafts of the manual, artworks etc. if it was a legit run. so the printing quality would, or better said had to be much more closer to the original (raster dots etc.), but instead of the original drafts, they surely only had a normal manual as a model, therefore the quality differences.

in the end, everybody can believe what he likes, but for me this case is clear (and closed). it's just putting lipstick on the pig.

Keranu · 11/25/2007, 03:14 AM

I don't think I ever emailed Hudson, but for those interested, I made a article that summed up the bootleg debate back when it was hot here -> http://lazerdorks.org/stunningarticles/sapphirearticle/index.html .

PCEngineHell · 11/25/2007, 03:45 AM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 11/25/2007, 03:08 AMso, hudson never confirmed that matter? may be you once asked yourself, why not?

may be they just give a shit on it 10 years later. or the secretary which received your mails, didn't know exactly what to do with them?

why it should give hudson so much work to confirm your mails properly, if it's not because the people which received your mail didn't know how to handle?

if those copies are really produced on hudsons wish, they could've send you an immediately and clear answer with a "YES" easly!

and then again, why those copies where printed at a company located in swiss?

and last but not least. the producer of the game would certainly had have the original drafts of the manual, artworks etc. if it was a legit run. so the printing quality would, or better said had to be much more closer to the original (raster dots etc.), but instead of the original drafts, they surely only had a normal manual as a model, therefore the quality differences.

in the end, everybody can believe what he likes, but for me this case is clear (and closed). it's just putting lipstick on the pig.

So that you know,its common for Japanese game companies to ditch their printing plates and store scans instead for booklets and packaging after the 1st run if they initially did not expect to do another run back to back. Because of this if your in the right place at the right time you can score them,much like how NGF did some of SNKs.

Because of this you would def see differences in the print quality. It would never be exact on a second run given that and another company being used,counterfeit or not.

Also,as far as bootleggers are concerned,it also makes no sense to copy the postal survey card. Thats going to the extreme. Its not like they had to worry about it being discovered as a boot if the majority of the customers are located outside their country and they already got your money.

I'm still half and half on this subject,and always will be till Hudson states one way or the other.

Ravij · 11/25/2007, 06:39 PM

Thanks for all the replies. Looks like this topic has opened an old can of worms!

Is Sapphire actually worth buying, even if it's a bootleg (paying a reasonable price of couse!)

Turbo D · 11/25/2007, 06:41 PM

imo its definitely worth buying !

Keranu · 11/25/2007, 06:47 PM

Well the interesting thing about the Sapphire bootlegs/second prints, as I've discussed with Helgeson before, is that it's an intriguing and good piece of news whether it was really a second print or a bootleg. If it was real, then it makes for a fascinating piece of PCE news and helps the community by making more copies available and at a lower price. If it was a bootleg, then the bootleggers did an epic job and also helped the community as they're bootlegs are not only fairly priced, but also seemed to have dropped the price down for the official copy as well. I told Helgeson that if these were bootlegs, then I hope they continue to make these finely made copies for other expensive games as well, like Dracula X.

nat · 11/25/2007, 07:16 PM

Yes, if you like shooters. It's in my top three favorite Turbo games.

Tatsujin · 11/25/2007, 11:34 PM

well, here some counter questions for you theorizers

1. it would be easy for hudson to give a proper statement on that matter. so why they can't?

2. what makes more sense: 1. hudson did this 2nd run to bestow all those people a copy of sapphire for a reasonable price, which missed out the 1st print back in '95? or 2. some clever fellows duplicated it to flood the market with pirate-copies and make big cash in the first period (until the world get noticed)?

3. why trader 2 put that specific "copy" into their show case of "proven counterfeits" to prevent people of buing it?

4. why you can't find that specific "copy" in any regular retro-stores in akiba offered nowadays, but a lot of the old "original" ones? if it's proven a legit 2nd run, then why stores don't offering it if they where such widely spreaded back in 1999/2000 all over japan (as some of the people all the time argue)? I never have seen one in the last several years, in contrary on ebay etc. you could find hunderts of them in the same time span!

5. back then, around when the said copy where released, absolutely nobody got noticed, that those coming from a legit source (e.g. hudson), nor was it publicized in any magazines or public media. so there never was an offical release of it, which is very untypical in japan. why?

6. and, who exactly ever sent a copy of that 2nd run to hudson to clarify it, and got the answer that hudson couldn't find anything wong with it?
i've readed this so many times on ebay auctions and when i asked the seller about that matter, he couldn't give me a proper answer for that. therefore i think, this is just an invented story made up by some guys who wanted to sell saphhires still for a good price (or not to get banned by ebay), after the world got noticed about those pirates once.

so there are a lot of arguments which speaking for a counterfeit, but very small evidence for a legit 2nd run from hudson soft.

nat · 11/25/2007, 11:37 PM

I think Tatsujin made the counterfeits. He's Swiss, right? And they came from Switzerland, right? It's GOT to be him! There's no question in my mind.

Tatsujin · 11/26/2007, 12:23 AM

oh yes..that's an old theory which also would speak for that hudson isn't the initiator of those copies O:)

NecroPhile · 11/26/2007, 12:38 PM

The Sapphire reprints are obviously bootlegs. Of course Hudson won't give a definitive answer - they don't care, but did they ever go outside of Japan to find a print house for any other games? I think not. As for the reply card, the pirates were trying to make it as realistic as possible. They could've just as easily substituted a cheap single fold manual, but they didn't for the same reason. Perhaps it was going a bit overboard, but it's not like it really cost them much.

Tatsujin · 11/27/2007, 09:53 PM

my words

Sinistron · 11/28/2007, 02:34 PM

I'd love to get my hands on a Sapphire bootleg.

NecroPhile · 11/28/2007, 04:14 PM

Quote from: Sinistron on 11/28/2007, 02:34 PMI'd love to get my hands on a Sapphire bootleg.

You and me both.

nat · 11/28/2007, 06:01 PM

I bought one for $40 new.

The guy that had a huge lot of them that was selling 'em finally just ran out.

lkermel · 11/28/2007, 08:51 PM

I also confirm that the Sapphire bootlegs are totally worth buying. I would never have paid $400 for the legit game but my $40 were well spent. This bootleg is incredibly close to the original game, it even has a registration card and a spine if I remember well...

About other pirates/bootlegs, I've been collecting them for a while and they usually look different than original HuCards. Here is a page where I reviewed some of them, but I have a lot more in stock. I've never seen other CDRom bootlegs though...

schnuth · 11/29/2007, 03:08 AM

Quote from: guest on 11/28/2007, 04:14 PM
Quote from: Sinistron on 11/28/2007, 02:34 PMI'd love to get my hands on a Sapphire bootleg.
You and me both.

I got one right before the dude selling them sold out. I kept putting it off and was glad I finally got one when I did. Having never seen an original I'm really surprised at the work that went into this reproduction. It looks fantastic. Plus it's a pretty cool game.

I absolutely love Sapphire's soundtrack. I ripped it to MP3 and rock out to it at work.

Sinistron · 11/29/2007, 09:09 AM

$40. Jeesh. That's the sweet price. That's movie date money if fast food's involved. lkermel- very familiar with your site. It's been the most instrumental page for me in bulking up my collection. Thankee sai.

NecroPhile · 11/29/2007, 09:16 AM

Quote from: Sinistron on 11/29/2007, 09:09 AMThankee sai.

Nice.

bust3dstr8 · 11/30/2007, 03:30 AM

Shit....if you gonna pay $40 for a boot, why not just burn one?

NecroPhile · 11/30/2007, 09:40 AM

Quote from: bust3dstr8 on 11/30/2007, 03:30 AMShit....if you gonna pay $40 for a boot, why not just burn one?

If you don't understand the difference between a pressed disc and burned one and don't place any value on a offset printed manual and liner, then it can't be explained to you.

lkermel · 11/30/2007, 12:25 PM

Quote from: bust3dstr8 on 11/30/2007, 03:30 AMShit....if you gonna pay $40 for a boot, why not just burn one?

As Necromancer said, they're far from simple 'burned CDs', Click here to have a look at the site of the original seller to see what I mean.

nat · 11/30/2007, 12:31 PM

Holy shit, he's got some "back in stock!"

Follow Lauren's link in the previous message. Now is your chance to get one of these fine replications in case you missed out the first time!! If you end up buying one, just don't tell Tatsujin, since he'll go all PMS-y on you.

Act now, quantities are limited!

NecroPhile · 11/30/2007, 12:35 PM

I just sent an email and hope that I'm not too late.

Great, between this and the flash card deal I'm going to have to sell some plasma or rob bell ringer to come up with some dough if d-lite has something I just can't pass on, which is nearly guaranteed with 841 games to pick from.

Sinistron · 11/30/2007, 12:55 PM

Ack. I just sent the link to my girlfriend so she can get it for me as a Christmas gift. ACT FAST GIRL! ACT FAST!

lkermel · 11/30/2007, 01:10 PM

Quote from: nat on 11/30/2007, 12:31 PMHoly shit, he's got some "back in stock!"
Follow Lauren's link in the previous message. Now is your chance to get one of these fine replications in case you missed out the first time!! If you end up buying one, just don't tell Tatsujin, since he'll go all PMS-y on you.
Act now, quantities are limited!

I should ask this seller for my commission

nat · 11/30/2007, 01:14 PM

Good thing I got one back when they were $40.

shubibiman · 11/30/2007, 01:26 PM

I think you'd better make a bulk order, as we did 2.5 years ago.

bust3dstr8 · 11/30/2007, 05:29 PM

Quoteit seems obvious that is was produced "in house" (or at least it was produced in Japan by people that had access to the original materials.)

It seem obvious it was produced inhouse.....um nah that ain't gonna fly.
It was produced in Japan from original materials.....ya, ya that should get 'em to bite.

The sewage spewing from this guys mouth is comical, he even contradicts himself.

Or it was printed in the Alps by escaped zoo monkeys.

Tatsujin · 11/30/2007, 10:43 PM

burn down his house!

Sinistron · 12/04/2007, 12:45 PM

HEE HAW Thanks a bunch. My Sapphire's on the way.

NecroPhile · 12/19/2007, 05:14 PM

My 'second run' copy of Sapphire (ha-ha) arrived a couple of days ago (damn sauerkraut mail took two weeks to get here), and I'm having a lot of fun with it. My feeble mind and aged hands aren't finding it quite as easy as I remembered it to be, but it's still rather simple to beat it with multiple continues and bombing the piss out of everything.

nat · 12/19/2007, 05:47 PM

It's no piece of cake if you leave the difficulty/credits at their default.

I think the "it's too easy" philosophy comes from the folks who max out the bombs, credits, and dumb down the difficulty.

Turbo D · 12/19/2007, 06:00 PM

I have it but do not have an arcade card

I refuse to play it for my first time on magic engine

NecroPhile · 12/19/2007, 06:11 PM

Quote from: nat on 12/19/2007, 05:47 PMIt's no piece of cake if you leave the difficulty/credits at their default.

I think the "it's too easy" philosophy comes from the folks who max out the bombs, credits, and dumb down the difficulty.

Word. I thought that it was easy because I always had a much better chance of completing it on the default difficulty and with a single credit than I did with any other shmup.

Tatsujin · 12/19/2007, 07:17 PM

Quote from: nat on 12/19/2007, 05:47 PMIt's no piece of cake if you leave the difficulty/credits at their default.

I think the "it's too easy" philosophy comes from the folks who max out the bombs, credits, and dumb down the difficulty.

that's not a thought, that's a fact!

every normal thinking person with a little bit of brian will try to beat it with one credit.

Sinistron · 12/28/2007, 10:05 AM

I STILL haven't received my Sapphire. Ludicrous.

nat · 12/28/2007, 11:59 AM

Honestly, I wouldn't worry.

That guy was always 100% trustworthy in the past.

Keep in mind lost of stuff gets delayed in the post around this time of year. I ordered some video encoder ICs on 12/18 or 12/19. They shipped 12/20 and I didn't receive them until 12/27. I took them a full 7 days to travel 3 states over. Normally I would expect stuff like that in 2 days, 3 at most.

Ravij · 12/31/2007, 11:51 AM

Quote from: Sinistron on 12/28/2007, 10:05 AMI STILL haven't received my Sapphire. Ludicrous.

I got mine from his EBay auction last month - took about 4 days to get here (UK), I think it shipped from Germany or Austria. Now all I need to find is my damn Arcade Card so I can stop playing it on Magic Engine!