Help with Duo-R - Strange CD Audio problem

Frank_fjs · 09/27/2012, 01:07 AM

I really want to rant but will save that for later, sigh.

Received an RGB/region modded Duo-R, everything working great except the following:

- CD Audio from games isn't playing (will expand on this later on)
- Audio in a CD game generated by the sound chip (i.e. non-redbook) seems to be playing fine
- Audio from HuCard games seems to be playing fine
- If I throw a regular audio CD in there, it plays fine. Nice and loud and in stereo

I know a cap issue is typically the likely culprit, however I think something more sinister might be wrong due to the fact that regular audio CD's play fine.

To elaborate a little, watch the video of this game on the PC Engine Bible site: http://www.pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Games/Nekketsu-High_School_CD-SOCCER.htm

Paying attention to the intro, when I run that game the first sound that you hear on the video plays for a few seconds with a nasty static sound and then stops dead. From there on all I hear is the chip sounds, like the soccer ball swoosh sound at around the 22 second mark. I do not hear any music or the character's voices/speech.

1) Any ideas on what the problem may be?

2) Any advice on how I should handle the situation with the eBay seller? I paid a lot of money for a console that was supposed to have been serviced/repaired/restored etc and am rather pissed off that my first Duo-R, which was supposed to be a happy and positive experience, does not seem to work.

Frank_fjs · 09/27/2012, 01:18 AM

Quick update, perhaps it is bad caps after all. I've had the system running for about 15 minutes and CD audio has started to kick in, but it's still 'staticy' and a little intermittent. It also stops altogether at times and seems to randomly kick back in at other times.

Bad caps?

Bernie · 09/27/2012, 01:27 AM

Sounds like caps, but im not a tech. One of em will chime in tho.

Frank_fjs · 09/27/2012, 01:39 AM

I'm thinking caps too, but I have a strange feeling that it might be something else as all other audio is working fine.

I'm thinking it might be the CD mechanism, it had a new one fitted and maybe it hasn't been 'tuned' correctly?

Hollo · 09/27/2012, 02:07 AM

Ignore the PM on AA I sent asking for more detail about the issue Frank.

I would definitely say caps if you're talking about a straight Duo, but as it's an R it's worth having the experts give some other options. No matter what it is though, you definitely have grounds for a claim by your description of the problem.

Man, you have some bad luck though!

Frank_fjs · 09/27/2012, 02:12 AM

Yeah, I'm beginning to think it's a cap issue as well, perhaps there are separate caps that handle the CD/HuCard audio side of things.

I've left it on for over half an hour now and sound seems to be playing fine, will have to see what happens when I turn it off, let it cool down and power on again.

Bernie · 09/27/2012, 02:16 AM

Where did ya get it from?

Frank_fjs · 09/27/2012, 02:24 AM

Doujindance.

Not sure whether I should message him first or just go straight to a PayPal dispute. I've never had to initiate a PayPal dispute before but given how much money I spent and what I've received in return, I'm leaning towards it.

I'm pretty pissed off as aside from the console not working correctly, it wasn't cleaned like he shows in his 'about me' page, it has black gunk and smudge marks on it and is a little yellowed, definitely not washed or bleached. RGB mod is working nicely, can't test out the region mod due to having no US games.

Bernie · 09/27/2012, 02:49 AM

Contact him first. It isnt like him to have this kinda work. A few of us have bought from him, including myself. See what he says first.

Frank_fjs · 09/27/2012, 02:57 AM

Sent him a polite message detailing the issues I'm having, will await his response.

There's definitely a problem though, I've tested out a few more games and CD audio is hit and miss, as is the loading of CD games. I'm getting quite a few 'please set disc' errors and sometimes have to try 3-4 times before a game loads. Also, sound is definitely garbled when it decides to work, I have a briefcase setup and tested the same games in that to compare and they run smoothly with clear audio.

Last game I tested was WBIII - Monsters Lair and it runs smooth as silk on my briefcase setup, but on the Duo-R audio is intermittent and contains a lot of static. Sometimes the CD audio plays and then is just abruptly stops.

So fucking pissed off, was super excited to finally get a Duo-R and play in RGB but this experience has stuffed it all up.

Bernie · 09/27/2012, 03:00 AM

I feel ya man. This kind of thing happens from time to time though.

I am sure he will make it right somehow. The only bad thing is he is in Japan.... ugh....

Frank_fjs · 09/27/2012, 03:08 AM

Yeah, I've had a bad run of late but have been pretty lucky with consoles overall.

Years ago I got a 32X that didn't work but it was an easy fix, just had to re-insert the data ribbon cables and problem solved.

Recently obtained a VB that didn't work, despite being advertised as fully working, the left lens displayed no picture and the right lens was glitchy. I ended up getting the ribbon cables soldered down and it's working flawlessly now, so I didn't bother the seller with the problem despite being out of pocket as I had to pay a technician to perform the solder work.

This Duo-R is the third console I've received that isn't working correctly, and it's beyond my skills to repair it and I don't know anyone locally with PC Engine repair experience, and I'm not forking out for return postage plus the repair cost to send it to someone.

I have a feeling that doujindance is going to request that I send it back to him, at my cost, and he'll either repair or replace it if I'm lucky. I'm not happy doing that though as postage from Australia to Japan is not cheap, and why should I have to wait another month to be playing my Duo-R that I paid damn good money for, especially when it was supposedly fitted with a new lens and serviced/reconditioned.

End of rant, think I'm going to have to buy a packet of smokes and a bottle of scotch.

Hollo · 09/27/2012, 03:45 AM

Don't jump to conclusions just yet Frank. He might make good with it - he sells enough that he should. Good luck with it, and let us know how it goes.

Frank_fjs · 09/27/2012, 03:58 AM

Well things are getting worse, just tried playing though Monsters Lair and the game froze after defeating the first boss, that big fish thing. The game just stopped dead. Took the disc out and ran through the game again in my briefcase setup and got through the same part no problems at all.

So whatever the issue is, the CD mechanism is definitely involved somehow. My total guess would be that he hasn't calibrated it correctly, maybe it's spinning too fast or too slow etc.

I'm calm now, just disappointed that I can't play with my new console.

Frank_fjs · 09/27/2012, 12:25 PM

Latest discovery, it seems my Duo-R is ultra sensitive to movement/vibration.

E.g. When the CD audio decides to play, a very gentle tap of either the console or the desk that it's sitting on will cause the audio to stop playing. Reseting the game or advancing to a new section of the game (where a new track is loaded) restores the audio.

When this happens (slight vibration messing with the CD/audio) I can hear the cd mechanism struggling to read the disc.

Any clues as to what's wrong with my Duo? Could there be a loose connection somewhere?

DejahThoris · 09/27/2012, 01:41 PM

That really, really sucks... No word from DoujinDance over yesterday?

csgx1 · 09/27/2012, 02:40 PM

I had a Duo R that would sometimes load games. When games did load, the music/audio would always cut out. Sometimes the games would freeze too. It was worst when warmed up (20min or longer). I adjusted the pots and that fixed my problem. Not sure if your issues are a similar situation, but you might try to adjust the pots since it's easy to do. Just remember the initial settings before adjusting.

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=8926.0

Keith Courage · 09/27/2012, 02:43 PM

Could be caps but I am more inclined to say it needs pot adjustments. V101, V102, and V105 would be the ones to try. If you move any of these pots make sure to only try one at a time and to barely move it. A slight adjustment goes a long way.

Oh, and a gentle tap on any TGCD or DUO system will make the audio stop playing. That is completely normal.

thesteve · 09/27/2012, 03:09 PM

its either a bad laser, adjustment issue, or dirt/hair ect in the laser sled system (gears rails)

Frank_fjs · 09/27/2012, 09:29 PM

Thanks for the help guys.

Having a read through the excellent pot adjustment guide by BlueBMW (thanks for the link csgx1) I too am thinking it's an adjustment issue.

This bit was interesting, as I have heard these noises:

QuoteYou should hear some scratchy funny noises when VR101 isn't adjusted properly

You might hear a whiney faint scratchy noise at this point.... adjust VR103 clockwise until the noise goes away

I don't have a security driver to open it up, so it will have to wait.

It's going to be hard to tune though, I think, as what it does is so random. I.e.

- Sometimes no audio at all
- Sometimes audio works, but will cut out at some point during the game
- Sometimes the audio has a nasty bit of static to it
- Game freezes
- Game fails to load (please set disc error)

Doujindance responded to my first message, just told me to try a different PSU and adjust pot V102. Not much help really. Assuming he did fit a new lens, which seems likely given all the problems I'm having, he definitely hasn't tuned it or tested it correctly. He only ever seems to adjust V102, he does the same thing on one of his YouTube videos. My guess is that he just adjusts it until a CD boots up and leaves it at that, not conducting a proper or more extensive test with audio or different games etc. Even the video he provides showing the unit working contains no audio so there's no way I could have detected there was a problem. I've noticed similar problems in his feedback, where buyers have still left him positive feedback but have mentioned that they needed to tweak the laser themselves.

Bernie · 09/27/2012, 09:34 PM

Well, I would certainly request a partial refund. This is just not cool, and your location makes it even worse as far as shipping it anywhere. I'd open a case on eBay, and go from there.

HercTNT · 09/27/2012, 10:57 PM

I have a doujidance dou-r that a friend bought for me. it had small issues from the start. the inside was coated in a thin black film. when using rgb, cd games would run, but hucard games would not. sometimes the region mod would screw up. I sent the duo out to Steve. When he opened it up, he found some real serious problems. Wires were not properly soldered and loose. the region mod had issues as well. He fixed it all up and is on its way back. Moral of this story, doujidance's work is inconsistent, maybe dodgy.

Wanna thank Steve for fixing up my system

PCEngineHell · 09/27/2012, 11:02 PM

The deck Doujin did for Bernie that I nabbed off him was solid work wise. I undid the RGB however and used the pins on the AV out he set for RGB to output svideo instead. Honestly I cant complain, but seriously, with Hercs and Franks systems being bunk, I'd be weary about buying a deck off the guy myself.

NightWolve · 09/27/2012, 11:21 PM

Quote from: Frank_fjs on 09/27/2012, 12:25 PMLatest discovery, it seems my Duo-R is ultra sensitive to movement/vibration.

E.g. When the CD audio decides to play, a very gentle tap of either the console or the desk that it's sitting on will cause the audio to stop playing. Reseting the game or advancing to a new section of the game (where a new track is loaded) restores the audio.

When this happens (slight vibration messing with the CD/audio) I can hear the cd mechanism struggling to read the disc.

Any clues as to what's wrong with my Duo? Could there be a loose connection somewhere?

Maybe this will help, but worth mentioning how I fixed mine. I was testing Ys IV on my Duo and after the background music would play for a while, it'd skip and once that happened, the game code doesn't try to recover and resume playing, etc. Until you enter a town, or however you cause another change in background music, it will not resume just like you described. I thought laser issue, but what I did instead is I took apart the laser unit motor, held it vertically and dropped motor oil in it, and I also degreased the slider poles, then applied hi-temp automotive lithium-based grease (the red jelly kind) very well, all over. Put it all back together and it solved the problem!! So, that laser unit needs to be able to slide on those two poles with the least amount of friction as possible to prevent skipping. I am also planning (after the component mod) to apply the same grease underneath the wires and the plastic separator on the PCB that they make contact with - the wires that go from the laser unit to the PCB, that move whenever it slides.

You cited other problems in the thread, so I wasn't sure about adding my 2 cents, but this couldn't hurt.

Frank_fjs · 09/28/2012, 01:40 AM

Thanks for the tip NightWolve. I think I will give it a try, at worst even if it doesn't fix my problem it certainly can't hurt to try.

I'm sure doujidance has done plenty of fine work, but after what I received from him and the money I spent I'm not a happy camper. His prices have shot up by a fair bit lately, and there's signs that his work is getting sloppy. I think he's just trying to crank them out too fast nowadays and is being careless.

What dissapoints me is that I was happy to pay a premium for his product/service, based upon what he states he does to the consoles.

I now find his 'about me' page rather misleading: http://members.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=doujindance

What I thought would be done:

1) Console fully disassembled, thoroughly cleaned, whitended with a bleacing agent
2) New cd lens fitted
3) Resolder of I/O ports
4) RGB mod
5) Region mod
6) Blue LED

What I've received:

1) My console was not washed, bleached or cleaned. There were still wear marks on the HuCard slot, as well as other grime on the console.
2) I'm doubting whether a new lens was fitted, it doesn't look new to me and even if it is, he hasn't fitted/tuned it properly.
3) Don't know as of yet, but I doubt this was performed.
4) Working fine, happy with the RGB.
5) Untested, but appears to be working. I have a US game on the way so will know for sure in a week or so.
6) Blue LED is present.

So basically I spent above market value for a Duo-R console that has RGB output, a blue LED and a working HuCard slot.

thesteve · 09/28/2012, 05:42 PM

i have had issues with some new lasers of late, as all the originals are gone, and the replica's are hit and miss on proper alignment.

DejahThoris · 09/28/2012, 08:26 PM

I'm kind of really glad I didn't end up buying one from doujindance and went the longer route of getting a Duo off of Keith Courage then having thesteve mod it. So sorry you're going through this mess, definitely ask eBay for a partial refund.

NightWolve · 10/01/2012, 11:02 AM

Quote from: Frank_fjs on 09/28/2012, 01:40 AMThanks for the tip NightWolve. I think I will give it a try, at worst even if it doesn't fix my problem it certainly can't hurt to try.

Yeah, it can't hurt. If it's all original parts, then the grease on the poles is ~20 years old, dried out some and has collected dust... Not good, so it needs to be refreshed (modders should probably be doing that on principle with a full cap replacement). I thought my problem was with the CD-R brand I was using too, but the skipping would happen with original audio discs and games as well. I dunno what the best grease is for this though, I just pointed out the automotive kind that I had handy (used for some brake jobs I had done not too long ago).

Definitely don't like the design of the laser unit, but I understand since it's of the 1st generation. Those wires that move with it as it slides are pretty plentiful and I'd say thicker than they should be. Modern optical drives use the plastic film with conductive material imprinted in them that folds back'n'forth with movement and offers much less drag/resistance. Anyhow, yeah, thankfully that was the minor problem with mine and not something worse. This is what should be attempted first before thinking you need a new laser.

Frank_fjs · 10/01/2012, 11:16 AM

Looks like I'm back in action!

Greased the poles, re-seated the connections, cleaned the lens, adjusted pot 102 and problem solved!

Haven't done any extensive testing but have been able to play through a few games for about 15 minutes each without any problems.

Thanks for all the help guys!

Drakon · 10/01/2012, 11:29 AM

Thesteve + keith courage = ultimate win.

Quote from: DejahThoris on 09/28/2012, 08:26 PMI'm kind of really glad I didn't end up buying one from doujindance and went the longer route of getting a Duo off of Keith Courage then having thesteve mod it. So sorry you're going through this mess, definitely ask eBay for a partial refund.

tpivette · 10/01/2012, 12:28 PM

Quote from: Frank_fjs on 10/01/2012, 11:16 AMLooks like I'm back in action!

Greased the poles, re-seated the connections, cleaned the lens, adjusted pot 102 and problem solved!

Haven't done any extensive testing but have been able to play through a few games for about 15 minutes each without any problems.

Thanks for all the help guys!

Nice! So it was a simple fix after all. Glad to hear it wasn't something extensive. Have fun playing!

csgx1 · 10/01/2012, 02:47 PM

That's good news. Glad to hear you were able to get it up and running.

So as for any compensation from doujidance, all he offered was a quick reply to your questions and only suggested possible solutions to the issues? Were you able to get partial credit back for the inconvenience? Or at the very minimum, he should have shipped you a security bit to open the system up.