Ninja Ryukenden/Gaiden

[TurboXray]

I just finally got my own place, and pulled the PCE stuffs out of storage (yay!). So to warm up to PCE stuffs, in which I hadn't done for quite some time, I decided to look at Ninja Gaiden for the PCE (my son was playing the NES one over the weekend).

 Specifically, how to turn off the fake scrolling. That part was easy; just change one opcode from a BEQ to a BRA (@ $8153... I forget the bank number). But the problem lies with the maps. Except for the first level, all the maps have black tiles where the faux BG layer is supposed to be (after first map draw). The maps don't appear to be uncompressed (they are 16x16 metatiles, horizontal row format, and 13 meta tiles tall). I was able to easy find one, but removing the rom header and loading the rom into photoshop as a RAW 8bit grayscale image (64 pixels wide) and visually identifying some of the maps (not all maps can be identified this was single they might have different tile widths). But I hadn't figured out the pointer table to the maps for extraction.

 I'm not sure if I'm gonna continue with this for now, but I did want to at least post what I had found. If you're a hacker and interested, have at it!

[Dicer]

Stopping it is the first step, reversing it is the key step...

[Psycho Punch]

Please do continue your research on Ninja Gaiden. If you could make improvements in the parallax code it would make the pce version the definitive one.

[PukeSter]

This thread motivated me to finally beat Ninja Gaiden.

I had a great time tonight! I didn't know I had the ability to beat it, though it took a couple hours.

I have also played the nes version and prefer the pce music overall, but I never got past stage 3-2

[seieienbu]

...you never fail to impress, Bonknuts.  Good luck with this.

[TurboXray]

Stopping it is the first step, reversing it is the key step...

What step is the SGX version? Heh.

[Dicer]

That step can wait for me to get a sgx...

[ParanoiaDragon]

Is it possible to make the static BG(if I'm using the right terminology) completely static instead of jerky? Or would that be a matter of rewriting the game from scratch or having the source code?

[esteban]

That step can wait for me to get a sgx...

Hell no. I don't mind if Ninja Gaiden SGX exists before I own another SupahGrafxx. 

[TurboXray]

Is it possible to make the static BG(if I'm using the right terminology) completely static instead of jerky? Or would that be a matter of rewriting the game from scratch or having the source code?

Yes, that's completely possible. That's the first step, actually. I was able to disable the faux scrolling, but the BG maps need to be altered because all the faux scrolling parts are just black tiles (16x16 areas) - the game overwrites these blank tiles every so many scrolling periods. So no code, but it does mean sorting out the map data and altering it. The map data is not compressed, which is great, but I do need to figure out where the pointer table is (assuming there is one).

 Another interesting note: The back ground is updated in three screen refreshes (if there's a lot), because the update routine they use is pretty slow.

 The game also loads the entire game sprites into vram. Even the ones that don't get used for that level. It's sort of emulating NES sprite banks. It's a bit of a waste, and they could have used that extra space in vram for a smoother dynamic tile scrolling of the fake BG layer.

 One other interesting thing is the sprite animation. They created one more frame of animation for most enemies. Not sure about the bosses.

[seieienbu]

One other interesting thing is the sprite animation. They created one more frame of animation for most enemies. Not sure about the bosses.

Hold up, are you saying ever enemy has a frame of animation that's not used?

[esteban]

One other interesting thing is the sprite animation. They created one more frame of animation for most enemies. Not sure about the bosses.

Ha!

Could we see an example?

[TurboXray]

One other interesting thing is the sprite animation. They created one more frame of animation for most enemies. Not sure about the bosses.

Hold up, are you saying ever enemy has a frame of animation that's not used?

They use it. It's one more than the original NES one. It's not very noticeable. I only noticed it myself when comparing NES sprite sheets to the sprites in vram, and then the animation itself. I'll post an example in a bit...

 And... I'm too lazy to post pics. But yeah, the leg animation for enemies is 3 frames (nes version has 2). And the attack frames have one more frames of animation over the NES enemies. The first boss has more frames of animation too, so I'm just going to assuming they all do.

[ParanoiaDragon]

One wonders about what was happening when building some of these games.  Perhaps the scrolling & wastefulness of the vram is a result of rushed product to get a game out on schedule.  Or the coder didn't totally know what we was doing?  As I've wondered in the past, I wonder if the coder who did this also did Ys 1-3(I don't recall if 4 had any jerky parallax).

[ccovell]

Ninja Ryuukenden was made by a new Hudson startup in Hong Kong... so yeah, we can easily imagine that they might have been inexperienced and a bit inept.  Luckily, they smartened up and went on to do (partial?) work on Cotton CD.

[TurboXray]

I wasn't meaning to belittle the programmers, as I was to point out the method they used. I'm interested in what makes this port feel... weird or off. I think one of the biggest things that stands out, besides the mostly inferior soundtrack (and no samples when the NES one had them too. For shame), is the depth of the graphics. I mean literally; the PCE graphics are draw to be more shallow:

http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd379/PCGenjin/Ninja%20Ryukenden%20J-0004.png~original

 Some of the other stages have a little more depth to them, but it's not as strong as the NES/famicom version. And the placement of the character and enemies relative to those "platforms" feels off. I repositioned screens for each level, and it felt closer. Of course, the gameplay in this version is fine. Some of the level redesign graphics are odd, though.



 PD: Ys III has a superior engine and method to its fake scrolling. It actually rebuilds the whole tilemap (which scrolling the regs) for each frame. That's way more than Ninja Gaiden is doing. The static BG don't shutter in Ys III like they do in NG. Yeah, I know the engine is different, but Ys III is a little jerky where as NG is just broken looking (and execution of effect).


 Anyway, I found the map pointer table and figured out the header format for each level.

[esteban]

A flatter perspective definitely throw off the PCE version. But it is more than just the perspective, there is a wonderful organic, grittiness to the NES version that is completely lost in the sterile PCE version.

I can't even speak of the music.

It is a damn shame.

[PukeSter]

A flatter perspective definitely throw off the PCE version. But it is more than just the perspective, there is a wonderful organic, grittiness to the NES version that is completely lost in the sterile PCE version.

I can't even speak of the music.

It is a damn shame.

The music definitely isn't bad at all, it's just different. I like it. Especially some levels like 3-2. That's a really good tune.

Parallax is weird, but half the stages don't even have it and the graphics are still very good for an nes remake.
Personally, I prefer the pce one cuz I like the graphics much better and the gameplay is more balanced (better spawns, less damage by birds, harder bosses, less aggressive axe guys), but I get why people still prefer the nes one.

I know I'm definitely in the minority though.

[TurboXray]

I like the NES one... until I get to area 6. Soo many cheap deaths in that area. It's for this reason that it's rare for me to completely play through it. The PCE one is more balanced in my opinion. Ultimately, I want a hack that brings the best of both worlds. I'll offer it in segments though. I'd like one option to have the NES music in place, if possible. Maybe different tilesets. Etc. I've got another 512k to work with (making it an 8megabit game), so that should be doable.

 I need to write some support utilities, and this is stuff I really should be doing anyway (seeing as I'm not taking any CS classes yet for my CS major - just gen ed courses and higher math). Might be a good time to try out a new langauge/setup (something like java or C#, dunno).

[Windcharger]

A flatter perspective definitely throw off the PCE version. But it is more than just the perspective, there is a wonderful organic, grittiness to the NES version that is completely lost in the sterile PCE version.

I feel that one of the primary reasons for this disparity is due to how jumping and slashing (arguably the most important play mechanic in the game) differs between the two versions.

For example, In the NES version I'm able to slash both of the first two lanterns in level 1 in one jump (making me feel like a ninja in the process), with the first one being hit on the way up and the second on the way down.  In this version I'm almost always able to connect a rising slash, which is essential for dispatching birds, bats, umm... lanterns, and most everything really.

However, in the PCE version I find myself missing the first lonely lantern entirely about 80% of the time while performing a rising slash with the sword clearing well above it.  This is even taking into account that the first lantern here appears to be set about 8 pixels higher than it is relatively set in the NES version.  In fact, I can't even begin to count how many times in a session my sword completely clears the top of my intended target (much to my dismay and frustration).  I haven't really done any research into why this is the case, but it seems as though either the jump + slash collision detection starts ever so slightly late, or the collision box is shaped differently/awkwardly from the NES version.

For this reason, and though I am able to competently complete either game, I actually find both versions to be roughly equal in difficulty (albeit for completely different reasons).  The NES version just makes me feel more like a ninja doing so.   

[CrackTiger]

The NES version just makes me feel more like a ninja doing so.   

In the NES version, your sword does not hit enemies. If it happens to cross an enemy, they'll plow right through you and only you get hurt. Enemies only get hurt by the invisible spot in front of the tip of your extended sword. You have to think of your sword as a soap bubble wand, creating invisible bubbles which damage enemies, in order to play the game. The animation makes more sense this way too.

People just love the NES version for what it is and when they played it. Better to try to match the PCE version to it just for the sake of it than to make a game without imperfect gameplay.

[esteban]

The NES version just makes me feel more like a ninja doing so.   

In the NES version, your sword does not hit enemies. If it happens to cross an enemy, they'll plow right through you and only you get hurt. Enemies only get hurt by the invisible spot in front of the tip of your extended sword. You have to think of your sword as a soap bubble wand, creating invisible bubbles which damage enemies, in order to play the game. The animation makes more sense this way too.

People just love the NES version for what it is and when they played it. Better to try to match the PCE version to it just for the sake of it than to make a game without imperfect gameplay.

Soap bubble wand? Hahahhahhahaa. I never heard that one before.

How would you describe the collision detection in Impossamole? That game is crazy bad.

[CrackTiger]

The NES version just makes me feel more like a ninja doing so.   

In the NES version, your sword does not hit enemies. If it happens to cross an enemy, they'll plow right through you and only you get hurt. Enemies only get hurt by the invisible spot in front of the tip of your extended sword. You have to think of your sword as a soap bubble wand, creating invisible bubbles which damage enemies, in order to play the game. The animation makes more sense this way too.

People just love the NES version for what it is and when they played it. Better to try to match the PCE version to it just for the sake of it than to make a game without imperfect gameplay.

Soap bubble wand? Hahahhahhahaa. I never heard that one before.

How would you describe the collision detection in Impossamole? That game is crazy bad.

Constipated boot-fucking.

[PukeSter]

The PCE version is definitely easier than the original. Which is a good thing.

The only thing that makes the PCE version harder are boss fights. And none of them are impossible.

In fact, the Stage 4 boss allows you to attack both monsters instead of only one on the NES version.

The following enemies are far more aggressive in the original.

-birds (does 3 damage instead of 1)
-axe men
-the hopping humpbacks
-the hopping monsters
-flying ninjas
-snakes
-bazooka guys
-the jumping ninjas

Pretty sure that's it. Also as BT said, your sword doesn't connect with enemies in the NES version.

[MattJ]

I would be interested to see the game without the background scrolling. I love PCE NG, but the way the background scrolls in such a jerky manner really disorients me. I don't know, maybe it is the way my mind processes the moving images it see. Sometimes, I think in stage 2, it gets so bad I just have to shut the game off for a while because I start getting a headache. I've never had a game do that to me. (Virtual Boy excluded) I love the PCE version over the NES version. Besides the graphics the controls feel a little more fluid and the hit detection is a little more balanced. Pity that the background scrolling can be so distracting on such an awesome game! It was the first import PCE title I ever picked up!

[RyuHayabusa]

I much prefer the NES version. In my heyday I could beat NG1 on one life without being hit other than one unavoidable hit against the last boss. I could also beat NG2 on one life. There's just something off about the control on the PCE version. It's not as precise to me. I remember seeing the PCE version in EGM and Diehard Gamefan ads thinking about how awesome it would be. Well, after finally getting it I was a bit disappointed. The graphics are good in most places but some of the design choices are odd, like the girders and chains outside on the mountain going up to Jaquio's lair. The music is definitely not as good either without the drums. I wanted to like the game a lot but it's just ok.

[PukeSter]

Idk how the pce controls are worse. The sword actually hits enemies, instead of the space in front of the sword.

The enemies and bosses are a lot less aggressive, except the final boss.

[jperryss]

I much prefer the NES version. In my heyday I could beat NG1 on one life without being hit other than one unavoidable hit against the last boss.

[WoodyXP]

I hated the PCE version at first, but it grew on me.  Nowadays I prefer it to the NES version.

[RyuHayabusa]

Idk how the pce controls are worse. The sword actually hits enemies, instead of the space in front of the sword.

The enemies and bosses are a lot less aggressive, except the final boss.

Your sword hits the enemy in the NES version as well, though the range is forgiving to where you can hit just outside the tip of the sword as well. I just feel that Ryu controls faster and more accurately. As someone mentioned earlier, you can attack and hit multiple enemies/items in the air in one jump much easier in the NES version. Gameplay is just tighter in the NES version.

[Windcharger]

As someone mentioned earlier, you can attack and hit multiple enemies/items in the air in one jump much easier in the NES version. Gameplay is just tighter in the NES version.

Agreed.

[ToyMachine78]

A flatter perspective definitely throw off the PCE version. But it is more than just the perspective, there is a wonderful organic, grittiness to the NES version that is completely lost in the sterile PCE version.

I feel that one of the primary reasons for this disparity is due to how jumping and slashing (arguably the most important play mechanic in the game) differs between the two versions.

For example, In the NES version I'm able to slash both of the first two lanterns in level 1 in one jump (making me feel like a ninja in the process), with the first one being hit on the way up and the second on the way down.  In this version I'm almost always able to connect a rising slash, which is essential for dispatching birds, bats, umm... lanterns, and most everything really.

However, in the PCE version I find myself missing the first lonely lantern entirely about 80% of the time while performing a rising slash with the sword clearing well above it.  This is even taking into account that the first lantern here appears to be set about 8 pixels higher than it is relatively set in the NES version.  In fact, I can't even begin to count how many times in a session my sword completely clears the top of my intended target (much to my dismay and frustration).  I haven't really done any research into why this is the case, but it seems as though either the jump + slash collision detection starts ever so slightly late, or the collision box is shaped differently/awkwardly from the NES version.

For this reason, and though I am able to competently complete either game, I actually find both versions to be roughly equal in difficulty (albeit for completely different reasons).  The NES version just makes me feel more like a ninja doing so.   

The NES definitely has better controls, which in my opinion makes it the better game. I can get into a fluid groove in the nes that just isn't possible on the pce. The pce just seems too stiff or something.

[ToyMachine78]

The NES version just makes me feel more like a ninja doing so.   

In the NES version, your sword does not hit enemies. If it happens to cross an enemy, they'll plow right through you and only you get hurt. Enemies only get hurt by the invisible spot in front of the tip of your extended sword. You have to think of your sword as a soap bubble wand, creating invisible bubbles which damage enemies, in order to play the game. The animation makes more sense this way too.

People just love the NES version for what it is and when they played it. Better to try to match the PCE version to it just for the sake of it than to make a game without imperfect gameplay.

Nah. I think wind nailed it. Your movement and control are much more fluid on the NES, which indeed makes you feel more like a ninja. The PCE controls just make it more frustrating.

[PukeSter]

Switching from PCE Ninja Gaiden to the NES one, I find myself missing a lot more of the lanterns.

And many enemies are either much faster or cause a lot more damage.

[esteban]

The NES version is still my favorite one.

I have tried to get into the PCE version, but it hasn't "clicked" yet.

For all the flaws of the NES version (and believe me, we knew the game had flaws back when it was released), it is still the vastly more enjoyable experience. Yeah, I am masochistic...in that I enjoy many games that have moments with harsh platforming.

In Ninja Gaiden NES, you can ABSOLUTELY  pass 99% of the challenges with basic platforming skills.

There are, however, several spots in NES version where you NEED A POWERUP in order to advance *safely*. This is not a flaw. It is perfectly acceptable, albeit more challenging, to require an item to progress unscathed. if you think this is "cheap", then it means that only a few moments in the game are "cheap", IMHO.

I am certainly going to give Ninja Gaiden PCE another chance to win my love, since it has been a few years since I have played it...