I just beat Legion.........what a flaming pile, thru & thru!

ParanoiaDragon · 01/08/2007, 05:24 AM

First, I will clarify, I used save states AND slow mo wherever it was needed. With that said, there really is nothing appealing about the game, it is deffinitly one of the crappiest shooters I've ever played, EVER! I really don't know what was going thru the minds of the people at Reno, but, I seriously would be ashamed to have my name in the credits at the end. And it's not that the graphics are terrible, cuz I've seen worse. There's some decent tile & sprite work, & frankly, we could take those tile's n' sprites & make a REAL game! Sheesh, what a heaping flaming pile! I guess now I should beat Rock On!

Edit-Now that I think about it, Reno was also responsible for Golden Axe! So I guess it's no surprise of how terrible Legion is

Keranu · 01/08/2007, 05:28 AM

This game had to have been rushed to get out the door, there is no other way to explain the terrible programming and bugs in it. From looking at the graphics, I think they were trying to make a decent shooter, but for whatever reason they had to hurry it up too soon.

runinruder · 01/08/2007, 08:06 AM

I like it. I'll just repost what I said about it in another topic:

I know that many people have complained about its difficulty, but it can't be that bad if I've completed it in one day (and I'm not a very good shooter player). Yes, it's discouraging at first when you realize that your relentless enemies are extremely fast and fire extremely fast bullets. But I think the key is surviving the early stretch until you power up a bit. Grabbing and powering up the spread shot and learning the layouts of the first two stages (and how to defeat their respective bosses) will lead to success. With a little bit of practice, you can reach the third stage with all of your lives and a high-powered gun that covers an ENORMOUS amount of space with its shots. Your ship isn't helpless anymore, and you start obtaining shields to boot. Suddenly, the enemy armada doesn't seem so tough.

It does take some practice, and memorization, and strategizing. But it's certainly not an impossible mission, and the more you learn and the better you get, the more enjoyable the experience is. And the "getting better" process obviously shouldn't take very long. Before long, you'll have your once-hapless little ship soaring to all the right spots, reacting quickly to its speedy adversaries, and wreaking havoc with screen-spanning weaponry. I'll admit that the very last level is crazy and I haven't come up with a good strategy for it yet, but I made it there with so many lives in tow that I was able to smash my way through and win.

The graphics aren't very good, and the music is chip fodder. I like most of the tunes, though, and can live without fancy visuals in a space shooter if the action occupies my attention, which it does in this game.

...

So, yeah, it seemed really rough at first but I enjoyed the challenge and found that the experience became much more enjoyable as I worked on it and improved (which, again, didn't take long). I recommend to anyone who's going to play it that you try putting in a little practice instead of running for save states and slow motion when things seem difficult. You might find it to be a rewarding experience, as I did.

GUTS · 01/08/2007, 03:06 PM

Yeah I totally suck and I could make it to level 4 the first day I had it. The game is just weird enough to keep you playing; from the totally insane amount of times you die the first time you play to the awesome narration, the game at least has some unique charm to set it apart from all the generic space shooters.

Keranu · 01/08/2007, 07:16 PM

Whenever I dust off the game and play it, I usually play until level four also. Crazy game.

Tatsujin · 01/08/2007, 08:51 PM

awesome paranoia

QuoteI really don't know what was going thru the minds of the people at Reno, but, I seriously would be ashamed to have my name in the credits at the end.

i'm just wondering what you would say after playing golden axe?

ParanoiaDragon · 01/08/2007, 08:53 PM

Golden Axe is terrible! The music is decent, I'll give it that, but, the graphics, animation, ugh. It's a mess!

Tatsujin · 01/08/2007, 09:09 PM

it seems just to me, or did reno much better works on other systems e.g mega drive (gaiares is a really nice shmup copared to the legion mess)? what are the good ones for the PCE?

Keranu · 01/08/2007, 09:25 PM

Didn't Reno do Riot Zone / Crest of the Wolf and Future Boy Conan as well? Those games were decent.

Tatsujin · 01/08/2007, 10:07 PM

Just confirmed it on PCECP:

RENO: Legion

RENO/SEGA: Golden Axe

RENO Renovation: Death Bringer - The Knight Of Darkness, Dekoboko Densetsu Hashiru Wagamanma, Exile, Final Zone II

Renovation Games: Jantei Monogatari, High Grenadier

Riot Zone/Crest of Wolf was made by Hudson/Westone.

but seems that legion and golden axe builds the top of their mess. not that the other games are excellent, but far away from those two.

PCEngineHell · 01/08/2007, 11:28 PM

Reno and Renovation are part of the same company,Telenet. They used to have a top programming group,Wolfteam. The Reno side also handled the Valis 1 Duo remake. What you'll have to keep in mind with a company like Telenet is they would toss a certain budget towards diff projects,some expecting to sell well,some expecting to just fill a shelf and sell a average amount and gain a small profit. Some of the X68000 and Sega Cd versions of their games,like Sol-Deace was just awesome. I think the complete list of Telenet is:
Wolf Team,Commseed, Laser Soft, Renovation Products, Reno, Telenet Jr, Riot, and Namco Tales Studio.
Some of these divisions no longer exist in Telenet,some still do in one form or another.

Keranu · 01/08/2007, 11:59 PM

Very interesting info, Mike. I haven't heard of Telenet Jr. or Namco Tales Studio before.

ParanoiaDragon · 01/09/2007, 02:03 AM

My Valis 1 says Riot on it, not Reno

PCEngineHell · 01/09/2007, 02:09 AM

Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 01/09/2007, 02:03 AMMy Valis 1 says Riot on it, not Reno

Oops,yea I was wrong,too many divisions with the letter R. Then again,they are all the same company

PCEngineHell · 01/09/2007, 02:16 AM

Quote from: Keranu on 01/08/2007, 11:59 PMVery interesting info, Mike. I haven't heard of Telenet Jr. or Namco Tales Studio before.

Well the Tales division comes from the fact that Telenet leftover Wolfteam members makes the Tales of Phantasia games for Namco. Alot of people don't know this. Im thinking Namco now owns this division completely,but I could be wrong.
Also the Renovation side was responsible for distributing here and Japan. They also handled localizing and translating for the stuff released in the USA. They typically did not handle programming. Basically they were the publisher side of the company,nothing more.

The manner in which Telenet used all these divisions was pretty convoluted. Even back in the early 90ies I just couldn't keep up with them. Most real gamers back when I was a teen just put it like this: All the divisions of Telenet just make up the company itself and there wasnt much point in trying to figure which division was doing what,esp on the USA titles released here,because the ones not programed by Wolfteam tended to just carry the Telenet or Renovation name and not the small divisions names.

It would have been insane to have had on a Genesis cart Telenet,Renovation,and Riot or Reno all on the back of the case. That was more information then what people wanted or needed usually in the USA. In a backwards way of doing things the exception seemed to be for the titles Working Designs reprogramed and published because Working Designs seemed to early on take credit in a manner of speaking for any of the Telenet games they released here. On those titles I think you only saw Telenets name itself in small text typically on the disc and title screen. Typically a person,even average gamer at the most only cared who the publisher and game company was,not much more,and not many cared for the special in-house groups anyway.

The only reason Wolfteam got its name at the beginning of a game or on packaging was because the veteran members of Wolfteam wanted it that way. For a couple of years they they had split from Telenet and enjoyed some independence on its own. I think they got pulled back in around 1990. They were alot more pushy then most people and had alot of pull because Wolfteam was pushing out the best titles for Telenet. Telenet was passively eager to please them and put up with it because about all the Wolfteam games got rave reviews both in Japan and in the USA. I'm sure anyone who did read EGM or Die Hard Gamefan knew how the reviewers worshipped Wolfteam.

I know that Masaaki Uno the head director and producer for Wolfteam,along with the original founder Masahiro Akishino and most of the programers and staff that worked on the Megadrive/Genesis titles left in 1993 after Telenet decided to restructure and merge everything back into one name/division/company. This included Reno,Riot,the remaining members of Wolfteam Lasersoft who stayed,and whoever else. ( Lasersoft and Wolfteam had been merged in 1991 to help Wolfteam make the transition into cd games) Telenet became whole again for a long while at least with no more factions/divisions.

Keranu · 01/09/2007, 03:10 AM

Very intriguing.

CrackTiger · 01/09/2007, 03:17 AM

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 01/08/2007, 11:28 PMWhat you'll have to keep in mind with a company like Telenet is they would toss a certain budget towards diff projects,some expecting to sell well,some expecting to just fill a shelf and sell a average amount and gain a small profit.

I always figured that with Golden Axe, after the lincensing fees, cinemas, voice talent and soundtrack, they'd already gone over budget before getting to the actual game. They probably set their sites too high, hoping to make a big game to match the big license.

Of course, Altered Beast was the exact opposite. But at least we got a decent HuCard out of that license.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 01/09/2007, 02:16 AM
Quote from: Keranu on 01/08/2007, 11:59 PMVery interesting info, Mike. I haven't heard of Telenet Jr. or Namco Tales Studio before.
The manner in which Telenet used all these divisions was pretty convoluted. Even back in the early 90ies I just couldn't keep up with them. Most real gamers back when I was a teen just put it like this: All the divisions of Telenet just make up the company itself and there wasnt much point in trying to figure which division was doing what,esp on the USA titles released here,because the ones not programed by Wolfteam tended to just carry the Telenet or Renovation name and not the small divisions names.

I always figured that those companies that I encountered(I'm not familar with all of them) back in the day were more or less the same group, but I'd never understood their relationship before.

PCEngineHell · 01/09/2007, 03:29 AM

You know,I actually like the Altered Beast hu-card port other then its so damn hard because of the continue method.
The lack of voices didn't bother me too much. Graphically it was better then the Genesis/Megadrive port.

CrackTiger · 01/09/2007, 03:37 AM

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 01/09/2007, 03:29 AMYou know,I actually like the Altered Beast hu-card port other then its so damn hard because of the continue method.
The lack of voices didn't bother me too much. Graphically it was better then the Genesis/Megadrive port.

Unless you judge graphics solely by technical aspects like like parallax scrolling and resolution.

PCEngineHell · 01/09/2007, 03:51 AM

Well actually the game is sharper res wise on Pc-Engine.and has more details in some ways in the backgrounds and characters,but I mean the video output on the Genesis was never all that great,esp in composite. I do kinda feel neither version does the boss characters justice completely. The Genesis does have the scrolling background and demo screen and more voices. Neither version is perfect,and both are stronger in different areas.

Tatsujin · 01/09/2007, 03:56 AM

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 01/09/2007, 03:29 AMGraphically it was better then the Genesis/Megadrive port.

you really think so? for me the MD port appeared much closer to the arcade pendant. huger sprites, more dynamic, parallax. the only advantage which i could spot out on the pce version was the pseudo-zoomout of the enemy-bodyparts after kick their ass up to the pixel-heaven.

PCEngineHell · 01/09/2007, 04:06 AM

Well I always felt the enemies on the Pc Engine looked more like the arcade game,and I liked the way they died more. The Genesis version had more foreground and background detail in areas though.

ParanoiaDragon · 01/09/2007, 04:11 AM

I don't think the arcade version had any paralax in any of the levels IIRC, so, I don't totally take that into account on which one is more arcade accurate. But, still, it would've been nice is the PCE version had paralax, & it would've been nicer if the cd version had redbook audio! Not to mention 2 player support. Why doesn't the cd version support 2 players anyways? Anyone know??

Keranu · 01/09/2007, 04:35 AM

I kinda always thought the PCE port of Altered Beast looked nicer than the Genesis version too. The sprites looked more colorful as well as some of the backgrounds, even though everything looked smaller. The music in the PCE version was also pretty good.

Buster D · 01/09/2007, 04:58 AM

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 01/09/2007, 02:16 AMI know that Masaaki Uno the head director and producer for Wolfteam,along with the original founder Masahiro Akishino and most of the programers and staff that worked on the Megadrive/Genesis titles left in 1993 after Telenet decided to restructure and merge everything back into one name/division/company.

I was introduced to Uno-sensei a year and a half ago in a bar (his parents' house in Tokyo is near where I live). He's a real nice guy, he even helped me a little bit when I was job hunting. He told me about his work for the various Shining RPGs and for Camelot, but I had no idea about his work for Wolfteam.

Damn, gonna have to give him an e-mail and buy him a couple more beers, maybe I can get him to talk some more about his old games. He talks kinda fast so my Japanese usually can't keep up with him, but you have any questions for him (assuming he'll have the time to have a drink with me again)? Gonna have to find something for him to autograph, too...

PCEngineHell · 01/09/2007, 05:38 AM

Yea now that I remember the arcade version had no scrolling background or foreground either. The genesis is a great version,has more voices and the stage graphics do look more close to the arcade esp in layout with the grass on the first stage,but the tiny details of these thing sseem to be missing,details to the sky,bricks ect ect. ALL the characters are closer to the arcade on the Pc-Engine version,esp when you kill them. The deaths on the Genesis are horrible.

The graphics details in stage 2 on the Pc-Engine were reworked completely,so in some spots it looks better,in some spots it looks worse. I never played farther then this on the Pc-Engine version. All I know is from what I see the Pc-Engine handled the actual characters better,as well as the colors and the really tiny details,where as the Genesis version focused on sacrificing the tiny details on some things so that they could keep in something like grass. Either version is a trade off in certain areas graphically. Also note the Genesis is missing the part where baldie grows large before becoming the boss in stage 1. On Genesis he vanishes in the smoke and becomes the boss. I'm sure there are other areas like this as well where the Pc-Engine out shines the Genesis port,but Ill have to play more to be sure.

OldRover · 01/09/2007, 08:59 AM

Riot was part of Telnet? Well, that explains Exile II's many errors...

PCEngineHell · 01/09/2007, 03:37 PM

OUTRUN FUN ! ! !

Both versions yet again do a great job while neither are perfect. One thing I do give the Genesis a def one up on is the beach left side at the beginning. As you drive the water is visible. On Pc-Engine its just ground,not water. The Pc Engine version is prettier to look at and the Genesis is raw looking with more objects crammed in there at medium detail. Neither version really beats the other. I do not like how the race map plays out on the Pc Engine however. Its altered for some odd reason,I guess to be different.

Keranu · 01/09/2007, 06:09 PM

Great pics for Altered Beast and Outrun, Mike.

Emerald Rocker · 01/09/2007, 07:38 PM

QuoteThe only reason Wolfteam got its name at the beginning of a game or on packaging was because the veteran members of Wolfteam wanted it that way. For a couple of years they they had split from Telenet and enjoyed some independence on its own. I think they got pulled back in around 1990. They were alot more pushy then most people and had alot of pull because Wolfteam was pushing out the best titles for Telenet

Are you referring to the US releases (which I'm not familiar with)? I ask because, in Japan, pretty much every Telenet release credited the particular development group upfront when you first boot the game. Even Sledgehammer got their due. It seemed to be a Telenet tradition to give the developers credit for their work.

PCEngineHell · 01/09/2007, 09:21 PM

Yea,I was referring to over here.

QuoteAll the divisions of Telenet just make up the company itself and there wasnt much point in trying to figure which division was doing what,esp on the USA titles released here,because the ones not programed by Wolfteam tended to just carry the Telenet or Renovation name and not the small divisions names.

It would have been insane to have had on a Genesis cart Telenet,Renovation,and Riot or Reno all on the back of the case. That was more information then what people wanted or needed usually in the USA.

Anytime I say USA and Genesis I'm typically referring to the USA

It's pretty general knowledge that about any japanese side released Telenet title posted the division that handled the game on the packaging somewhere. And yea,on the Turbo CD/Duo stuff that wasn't Working Designs they prob got a tiny mettion (been awhile since I owned a US title on cd for TG by them so not positive but I do remember seeing Lasersoft at boot on some games at least). On the Genesis side of things this didn't happen. If it wasn't done by Wolfteam the most you saw even as a game booted up was Telenet and Renovation.

Tatsujin · 01/09/2007, 09:31 PM

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 01/09/2007, 03:37 PMBoth versions yet again do a great job while neither are perfect. One thing I do give the Genesis a def one up on is the beach left side at the beginning. As you drive the water is visible. On Pc-Engine its just ground,not water. The Pc Engine version is prettier to look at and the Genesis is raw looking with more objects crammed in there at medium detail. Neither version really beats the other. I do not like how the race map plays out on the Pc Engine however. Its altered for some odd reason,I guess to be different.

agree with you, but we have also to take the animation in consideration, and there lies the biggest advantage of the PCE pendant. although i also missed the beach in the first level a lot.