Neo Flash cart doesn't work with my new TG16

[GohanX]

I've had a Neoflash 64 mb flash cart since they first came out, and it works perfectly fine in my Japanese Duo R or my US Turbo Express. I recently acquired a Turbografx 16 at long last, but the cart doesn't work on it. The menu comes up, but when you select the game it either freezes immediately, or will play the game with really odd issues, like garbled graphics or simply being in slow motion. I can then take the same card and toss it in my Express and all games work perfectly.

I did some searching, and I found where nat said that the card sometimes has issues with power consumption if the AC adapter wasn't putting out enough juice, and sure enough I was using a Sega AC adapter since I don't have the original TG16 plug. I randomly found a universal AC adapter today that can output up to 12V, 1300 ma, which exceeds that of the original AC adapter. I tried it, and it works fine with the system, but still no luck with the flash cart.

Anyone have any ideas? This isn't a big deal since I can always use the Duo instead, but it's irritating.

[nat]

It IS irritating. To date, I haven't been able to find a real solution. I originally assumed it was the fault of the AC adapter, but this doesn't seem to necessarily be the case. Switching AC adapters doesn't seem to help, as you found out, which indicates to me the problem is probably with the power circuitry inside the console itself. The problem is still definitely power consumption related, however. The core TG-16 decks aren't known for capacitor issues, but it's possible it could be due to failing or aged capacitors in the power circuit. A full capacitor replacement might rectify the issue, but it's just a theory. I have enough NEC consoles that I simply live with it and don't use it on the ones it seems to have issues with.

A concrete solution to the issue would be great, but I just don't have the time anymore to tinker around with this stuff like I used to.

[GohanX]

I have enough NEC consoles that I simply live with it and don't use it on the ones it seems to have issues with.

This sounds like a good enough solution to me.

[SignOfZeta]

Maybe there is an inductor in the TG16 somewhere that keeps the HuCard slot from drawing an unsafe amount of power? There is certainly enough shit inside that thing, some of it must do something, right?

[BlueBMW]

I know when region modding a TG16, there was an issue with some of the IC based mods when trying to run them off the hucard slot.  There is definitely a weaker 5V line on the TG16 hucard slot as compared to the other consoles.

[nat]

Well, there you go.

[ensleepent]

My Neo Flash Cart (the 128M + save model) only works glitch-free on one of my three TG16 units, and then only when it's not hooked to one of my TGCD units.  I have no idea why.  None of these machines, with or without the CD drive, has any problem with other HuCards.

I'd like to hear more about this quirk.  The flash cart is awesome when it's in a machine that it likes.

I want to get one of the handhelds (TurboExpress, etc.), but it would be a bummer if I had to keep buying them until I found one that worked with the flash cart.

[nat]

That's because "regular" HuCards all draw a standard amount of power. The power demands of the flash cart go above and beyond designed specs.

[GohanX]

Well, the cart has always worked perfectly in my Turbo Express ensleepant, it's just the TG16 it really has issues with. The cart drains the batteries a bit more, but it's not a big deal.

[Mishran]

Nuts, and I was looking into snagging one of those flash carts too. It'll be a Duo-R exclusive I suppose.

[ensleepent]

It's definitely a good purchase, Mishran.  I can attest to that.  As long as you have at least one machine it'll work with.

All this talk about the power supply, etc. is interesting, but doesn't seem to explain (at least not fully) why my flash cart works with one of my TG16 units and not the others.  They're all the same model (pre-Duo North American "TurboGrafx-16"), in case that wasn't clear already.

Are there any differences between production runs of that model?

And the one it *does* work on is the most factory-fresh, barely-touched, CIB one that I have.  Seems like that might be a clue.  I hope I'm not quickly wearing it out or something by using the flash cart.

[thesteve]

if its a power problem, its an easy fix, in the unit

[GohanX]

I was wondering, if the issues is possibly that the hucard slot has a weak 5v line, couldn't the power just be rerouted to that pin from another source within the system? That would be a piece of cake to do.

[thesteve]

thats what im talking about
even just hooking a capacitor across the card slot +5 pin to ground would likely solve it
it could be a weak 5V regulator as well, also fixable

[Chuplayer]

I'd cut the 5V trace, wire up a second 5V power supply to the card port, and tie the grounds together. Or cut the trace on the Neo Flash cart itself and wire up the extra power supply there.

[guyjin]

Wouldn't it be easier to, say, alter the hucard by putting a 5 volt battery on that line?

[Chuplayer]

Wouldn't it be easier to, say, alter the hucard by putting a 5 volt battery on that line?

But then you'll have to change the battery, and if it kicks the bucket while you're playing, you might be screwed.

[Supremo_Lagarto]

I've had a Neoflash 64 mb flash cart since they first came out, and it works perfectly fine in my Japanese Duo R or my US Turbo Express. I recently acquired a Turbografx 16 at long last, but the cart doesn't work on it. The menu comes up, but when you select the game it either freezes immediately, or will play the game with really odd issues, like garbled graphics or simply being in slow motion. I can then take the same card and toss it in my Express and all games work perfectly.

I did some searching, and I found where nat said that the card sometimes has issues with power consumption if the AC adapter wasn't putting out enough juice, and sure enough I was using a Sega AC adapter since I don't have the original TG16 plug. I randomly found a universal AC adapter today that can output up to 12V, 1300 ma, which exceeds that of the original AC adapter. I tried it, and it works fine with the system, but still no luck with the flash cart.

Anyone have any ideas? This isn't a big deal since I can always use the Duo instead, but it's irritating.

I had the opposite problem. My Japanese Duo does not work with the flash card, but a $15 Turbo Grafx from eBay (the seller thought it was dead) works with it fine.  The Duo has no problems playing real Hucards though.

[BigusSchmuck]

Wow, after reading these comments, I'm just going to wait for an everdrive. It just sounds too much of a hassle if it works only half the time.

[Supremo_Lagarto]

Wouldn't it be easier to, say, alter the hucard by putting a 5 volt battery on that line?

But then you'll have to change the battery, and if it kicks the bucket while you're playing, you might be screwed.

Umm... wouldn't that just crash the game making you have to change out the battery? Why would it destroy your system if the 5 volt battery died?

[nat]

Wow, after reading these comments, I'm just going to wait for an everdrive. It just sounds too much of a hassle if it works only half the time.

Well, it works 100% of the time... on systems it likes. The problem is, you won't know if your system is one of these until you buy it and try it out.

On systems it doesn't like, it works 0% of the time.

[Supremo_Lagarto]

thats what im talking about
even just hooking a capacitor across the card slot +5 pin to ground would likely solve it
it could be a weak 5V regulator as well, also fixable

Could someone put up a diagram that shows where this +5v line is in relation to the card slot?

[SignOfZeta]

Wow, after reading these comments, I'm just going to wait for an everdrive. It just sounds too much of a hassle if it works only half the time.

Well, it works 100% of the time... on systems it likes. The problem is, you won't know if your system is one of these until you buy it and try it out.

On systems it doesn't like, it works 0% of the time.

What does it do when it doesn't work? Does it just not boot, or does it just work like shit? Mine basically acts like a dead HuCard.

[nat]

On the system I have that it doesn't like, it will boot up to the game selection screen but freezes up either right when you select a game or the game will play for 30 seconds or so (usually with lots of graphical glitches) and then freeze up.

Mine acted like it was dead one time, right after I'd loaded a bunch of ROMs on it. I verified I'd set the region switch correctly in the software, loaded it again, and it started working again. I figured something must have gone wrong in the first ROM dump.

Short answer to your question: it just works like shit if your system has a poor +5v line on the cart slot.

[D-Lite]

On the system I have that it doesn't like, it will boot up to the game selection screen but freezes up either right when you select a game or the game will play for 30 seconds or so (usually with lots of graphical glitches) and then freeze up.

Mine acted like it was dead one time, right after I'd loaded a bunch of ROMs on it. I verified I'd set the region switch correctly in the software, loaded it again, and it started working again. I figured something must have gone wrong in the first ROM dump.

Short answer to your question: it just works like shit if your system has a poor +5v line on the cart slot.

Nat, you try adding a second +5V to the cart slot?

[Duo_R]

Should we test voltages on the 5+ lines on systems that work and don't work using a voltmeter? Be.interesting to seewhat readings people are getting

[Supremo_Lagarto]

What does it do when it doesn't work? Does it just not boot, or does it just work like shit? Mine basically acts like a dead HuCard.

On my Duo it will load the menu and load most games. You then play the game and after about 30 seconds to 1 minute the graphics just fall apart and eventually everything freezes. It also seems to actually corrupt the information on the flash drive. When I would take it back to my PC to reflash sometimes my PC could not read the data on the card until I formatted it again.  On the my $15 Turbo Grafx the exact same game plays fine. I played all the way to level four on Legendary Axe II with no problems.  Each time I reflash the PC reads the card just fine.

Here is an example of the problems on the Duo with the flash card:

I have a lot less knowledge of how these consoles work electrically than most of you guys do. I would love to know more about where this +5 volt rail is located and a method of supplementing it with power. I'd love to test that out and see if it really works. The most sophisticated thing I've ever done is recap a few Dell motherboards, computer power supplies, and a few DVD players.  So I know my way around enough not to be electrocuted and that is about it.

However, I just remembered something and thought I should point this out...

The Turbo Grafx is using the original AC Adapter which is 10.5 V and 730 mA, the Duo is using an AC adapter that is 10 V and 2000 mA.  That might not mean anything but there is a difference of half a volt there.  I know this has pretty well been ruled out, but just so I can witness it myself I might see if I get different behavior on the Turbo Grafx with a different AC adapter.

Okay. Tried 9 volt, 12 volt, 10 volt AC adapters. All with mA over the original Turbo Grafx range. No difference with the flash card on the Turbo Grafx. It always works. It must be internal to the Duo and Turbo Grafx.

[thesteve]

the duo manages data routing somewhat oddly.
on the duo all data (system rom, CD Data, Cart) runs across the cart slot.
the 5V Rail is simply a 7805 chip (very basic/common 5V regulator)
if the data on the cart is getting corrupted, it means the cart is going in to write/flash mode during operation.

[D-Lite]

The Turbo Grafx is using the original AC Adapter which is 10.5 V and 730 mA, the Duo is using an AC adapter that is 10 V and 2000 mA.  That might not mean anything but there is a difference of half a volt there.  I know this has pretty well been ruled out, but just so I can witness it myself I might see if I get different behavior on the Turbo Grafx with a different AC adapter.

Okay. Tried 9 volt, 12 volt, 10 volt AC adapters. All with mA over the original Turbo Grafx range. No difference with the flash card on the Turbo Grafx. It always works. It must be internal to the Duo and Turbo Grafx.

If you test the actual output from any of those adapters they are guaranteed to not be the same as the listed spec on them.  Usually higher by a volt or two.

[thesteve]

the man the legend D-Lite.
i suspect its got nothing to do with power.
the cart is going into write mode most likely duo to improperly terminated pins on the flash chip (poor design)
the PCE logic and processors work fine at 4.5V as do most 5V logic chips (flash included)

[incrediblehark]

has anyone found out a solution to this? I'm having problems with my new neo flash and trying to find out a fix.

[nat]

The current fix is to buy a second console, and hope that it has a stronger HuCard slot.

You might also ask "thesteve," it seems like he was on to something regarding this issue. Either way, it would probably involve sending your system away to be modified, so just buying a second cheap console online might be a better way to go.

[thesteve]

i have a theory on this, but would need a problem setup in front of me to test it
I know its not the power supply to the slot, but it could be an interfacing issue, with the data/addressing lines.
especially if the flash chips are 3V logic

[GohanX]

I was working on this as well, while I was region modding my system I tried hooking a 5V source to the hucard's 5V pin with a jumper wire, and it seemed to work in the 2 minutes that I tested it, but I definately wouldn't call this a fix since I didn't spend time really testing it.

Long story short, the region mod didn't work, BlueBMW (who knew nothing of my playing with the power) fixed the region mod for me, and when I got it back the flash cart worked 100%, either with or without a Turbo CD attached. Weird.

[TurboXray]

I was working on this as well, while I was region modding my system I tried hooking a 5V source to the hucard's 5V pin with a jumper wire, and it seemed to work in the 2 minutes that I tested it, but I definately wouldn't call this a fix since I didn't spend time really testing it.

Long story short, the region mod didn't work, BlueBMW (who knew nothing of my playing with the power) fixed the region mod for me, and when I got it back the flash cart worked 100%, either with or without a Turbo CD attached. Weird.

The 6280 is known to have weak data bus lines (the address lines are fine). It's possible the region mod acts a transmission line buffer (which specifically fixes these sorts of problems - weak transmission). Rule of thumb on the PCE, you definitely don't want to try to drive more than 1 device with the data bus. It's possible the Neo Flash is doing just that - driving more than one device (an interface IC and some other chip at the same time).

[thesteve]

the region mod adds resistance to the data lines 4ohms for the new single chip and 50ohms for the old 2 chip version.
this does slightly weaken the data lines.

[incrediblehark]

well i tried adding a 5v to the hucard 5v and no change, of course it is still most likely my region mod as thesteve suggested before

[thesteve]

if your region mod is the 2 chip type try using a higher voltage supply to the mod