R-Type

nat · 11/19/2006, 04:29 PM

I was playing R-Type last night and I was thinking... HuCard or CD? And why? Having owned both, I think I like the CD better. The only thing about the CD I dislike is that they changed the music for the first level. The CD has some electronic voice saying "R-Type" repeatedly throughout the song. I have no idea why they did this. The original level 1 music was classic. The rest of the CD music just seems to be higher quality versions of the original music. I don't understand why they didn't do this with level 1. It's because of the better sound, however, that the CD version is my pick. That, and the neat intro. And the cooler user manual.

Also, I wished they'd fixed the sprite flicker for the CD version. I know the TurboGrafx/PCE is capable of handling this game without flicker. During some parts of level 5, the flicker is so bad you honestly don't know how many enemies are on screen. The CD version was released in 1991. That was late enough in the life of the console that most folks had figured out how to make games with minimal or no sprite flicker. Seeing as how R-Type is possibly the worst case of sprite flicker of all-time, if I were Irem I would have made damn sure to reverse this embarrassment. R-Type on the TG is a killer port of a great game, but IMO playability is hindered by this issue. And I mean, they had obviously already made the decision to go to the trouble of re-releasing the game with updated sound. Why didn't they go the whole distance and fix the graphics at the same time?

Anyhow... HuCard or CD? What do YOU think? Discuss.

runinruder · 11/19/2006, 06:56 PM

I only own the card version, but superior audio won't spur me to buy the CD rendition anytime soon. I appreciate the level design in R-Type but I've never enjoyed playing the game. As far as slow-and-tough Turbo sidescrollers go, I'd much rather play Sinistron or Psychosis.

nat · 11/19/2006, 07:44 PM

Quote from: runinruder on 11/19/2006, 06:56 PMI only own the card version, but superior audio won't spur me to buy the CD rendition anytime soon. I appreciate the level design in R-Type but I've never enjoyed playing the game. As far as slow-and-tough Turbo sidescrollers go, I'd much rather play Sinistron or Psychosis.

I enjoy the game, but I would enjoy it a lot more if the flicker were absent. For me, my biggest pet peeve in games is flicker. Momentary slowdown I can deal with (*cough* Gradius *cough*), but flicker? No way. At least not to the extent of R-Type. There's nothing more frustrating than playing a level, frantically blasting away at anything in sight, and then things come screeching to a halt as your ship is obliterated by an unseen bogie popping up out of nowhere at point-blank range and landing a fierce barrage of laser blasts on your hull. K-O! The worst part is, you literally never even saw him coming. You never had a chance. It's times like these I throw down the controller in frustration and turn off the game. In all fairness, this doesn't really become an issue until level 5 in R-Type. But they should have fixed it, dammit. But I digress.. I still like the game, especially the CD version.

As a side note, Psychosis is a kick ass game. There is very little flicker or slowdown. The graphics are extremely vibrant and it has some cool parallax, especially in level 5. It's also pretty challenging. I think Psychosis is a very underrated game-- I highly recommend to any shooter fan. It's got to be in my top 5 favorite shooters for the Turbo.

runinruder · 11/19/2006, 08:10 PM

Right on, Psychosis rules. Awesome idea for a shooter, with great music (especially in the first two stages) and an admirable level of challenge. I also like how you can get various creatures to help you out (the butterflies in stage one and turtle in four).

Joe Redifer · 11/20/2006, 07:48 PM

I prefer the HuCard version for it's all-around superior music (I do not care for the CD versions of the tunes). I think I prefer the Japanese version because it only has the first four levels. The final four levels are extremely dull for me so having just the good levels on one card is great! On the US version I always turn the game off upon reaching stage 5 anyway.

As for the flicker, at least it has a little bit less than the Sega Master System version.

Tatsujin · 11/20/2006, 09:43 PM

Quote from: nat on 11/19/2006, 04:29 PMAlso, I wished they'd fixed the sprite flicker for the CD version. I know the TurboGrafx/PCE is capable of handling this game without flicker. During some parts of level 5, the flicker is so bad you honestly don't know how many enemies are on screen. The CD version was released in 1991. That was late enough in the life of the console that most folks had figured out how to make games with minimal or no sprite flicker.

the flickering in the cd-version is even much worse than in its 3 year older hucard pendant. therefore i prefere the hucard-version much more.

VestCunt · 11/20/2006, 10:25 PM

The hucard music is classic. The CD music is...quirky.

I doubt even the supporters of the CD music would like it as much if they hadn't first been exposed to the original soundtrack.

Imagine it's the eighties or nineties and you're going to going to play an awesome looking, arcade shooter called "R-Type" for the first time and you hear some lame techno crap kick in.
No way.

That said, something about playing the disc version feels more like a finished product to me. The Turbochip feels a little plain somehow. I also have R-type on the SMS and PS1; but I like the Turbochip and Complete CD the most and they're tied in my book.

TR0N · 11/21/2006, 02:37 AM

SCD>Hucard

I perfer it on the hucard more since it has the original music.

Still does suffer from flicker as well.

Realy the, best the port of it that i ever played of it was r-types for the ps1.

Still if you realy like r-type that much i would recomend, Pulstar for the NeoGeo.

It was made by the same ppl that did r-type.... not to mention pulstar plays so much like r-type.

Heck it's one of the best r-type clones i'd ever played.

esteban · 11/21/2006, 09:33 AM

I'm too lazy to get into this again, but R-Type CD's soundtrack is a welcome change

:

In defense of R-R-R-R-R-R-R-Type

As far as flicker is concerned, I never found it crippling, but of course I would have loved it if they reduced flicker in the CD version. I guess one's tolerance for flicker is relative to their yardstick: I'm used to the flicker of famicom /nes games, including the shooters, so the flicker in R-Type HuCard / CD seemed "acceptable."

nat · 11/21/2006, 11:23 AM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 11/20/2006, 09:43 PM
Quote from: nat on 11/19/2006, 04:29 PMAlso, I wished they'd fixed the sprite flicker for the CD version. I know the TurboGrafx/PCE is capable of handling this game without flicker. During some parts of level 5, the flicker is so bad you honestly don't know how many enemies are on screen. The CD version was released in 1991. That was late enough in the life of the console that most folks had figured out how to make games with minimal or no sprite flicker.
the flickering in the cd-version is even much worse than in its 3 year older hucard pendant. therefore i prefere the hucard-version much more.

Is it really?

See, I used to own the R-Type HuCard "back in the day". I sold it five or so years ago when I was "cleaning house" on some of my Turbo games. I guess I just hadn't played it in a while and thought I wouldn't miss it.

About a year ago I was really fiending for a game of R-Type, so I picked up the R-Type CD.

I always thought the flicker on the CD version was worse than I remembered but I thought my memory had to be tricking me since it had been roughly five years since I'd played the HuCard.

nat · 11/21/2006, 12:09 PM

Quote from: guest on 11/20/2006, 10:25 PMThe hucard music is classic. The CD music is...quirky.

I doubt even the supporters of the CD music would like it as much if they hadn't first been exposed to the original soundtrack.

Imagine it's the eighties or nineties and you're going to going to play an awesome looking, arcade shooter called "R-Type" for the first time and you hear some lame techno crap kick in.
No way.

That said, something about playing the disc version feels more like a finished product to me. The Turbochip feels a little plain somehow. I also have R-type on the SMS and PS1; but I like the Turbochip and Complete CD the most and they're tied in my book.

Actually, I don't think the CD music is lame at all. Aside from the first song which blows chunks compared to it's HuCard equivalent. But it's still decent. The rest of the tunes sound like an "upgrade" of the same music, basically, and I actually prefer the CD versions.

However, I agree completely on the rest of your points. Especially that the CD feels more like a finished product. Better manual, neat intro and cutscenes and technically superior music.

nat · 11/21/2006, 12:14 PM

Quote from: stevek666 on 11/21/2006, 09:33 AMAs far as flicker is concerned, I never found it crippling, but of course I would have loved it if they reduced flicker in the CD version. I guess one's tolerance for flicker is relative to their yardstick: I'm used to the flicker of famicom /nes games, including the shooters, so the flicker in R-Type HuCard / CD seemed "acceptable."

I was an NES player in the late '80s before I got a TurboGrafx. While there was quite a bit of sprite flicker and slowdown on the NES at times (even in games like SMB2 no less), the TG/PCE was a much more powerful machine. In the early days virtually none of my TG games had any flicker at all. It wasn't until a few years later, maybe 1994 or 1995, that I got my first copy of R-Type.

At the time it was like WOAH, this is a step backwards, technically. I knew the hardware was capable of so much more.

esteban · 11/21/2006, 05:11 PM

Quote from: nat on 11/21/2006, 12:14 PM
Quote from: stevek666 on 11/21/2006, 09:33 AMAs far as flicker is concerned, I never found it crippling, but of course I would have loved it if they reduced flicker in the CD version. I guess one's tolerance for flicker is relative to their yardstick: I'm used to the flicker of famicom /nes games, including the shooters, so the flicker in R-Type HuCard / CD seemed "acceptable."
I was an NES player in the late '80s before I got a TurboGrafx. While there was quite a bit of sprite flicker and slowdown on the NES at times (even in games like SMB2 no less), the TG/PCE was a much more powerful machine. In the early days virtually none of my TG games had any flicker at all. It wasn't until a few years later, maybe 1994 or 1995, that I got my first copy of R-Type.

At the time it was like WOAH, this is a step backwards, technically. I knew the hardware was capable of so much more.

I hear ya

. I think if you got R-Type sooner, you would have been more forgiving of the flicker

. At the time the HuCard was released for TG-16, it was a great port, flicker and all. Like the venerable NES and SMS, the new crop of consoles ("16-bit" era) didn't offer "flicker-free" gaming, so while flicker was undesirable, I didn't consider it unacceptable. It was just a part of life. We got fancier, nicer graphics, but there was still flicker, whether it was the result of sloppy coding, pushing the hardware to its limits, or otherwise.

Kaminari · 11/22/2006, 11:31 AM

I've never been bothered by the flicker in R-Type either. I consider it as a mark of craftsmanship: a fantastic arcade game ported on a so-called 8-bit system by a bunch of garage coders still exploring its untapped power. Playing at the arcade machine by day and going back home to play at almost the exact same game on an obscure console, that made many of my Amiga friends kind of violent I tell you

esteban · 11/22/2006, 01:24 PM

Quote from: Kaminari on 11/22/2006, 11:31 AMPlaying at the arcade machine by day and going back home to play at almost the exact same game on an obscure console, that made many of my Amiga friends kind of violent I tell you

Precisely ;).

Joe Redifer · 11/22/2006, 09:27 PM

I don't care much for the music in the arcade version. The sound hardware they used was pretty tinny and weak sounding. I prefer the HuCard sounds and even the SMS sounds to the abrasive arcade. Sounds like an early Genesis game.

nat · 11/23/2006, 12:26 AM

So it sounds like the general consensus is the HuCard is the preferred version, despite the fact that the CD has technically superior audio. I played it again tonight, I still stand by the CD.

So has anyone here actually beaten the game? It sounds like most folks don't like the last few levels... is this just because they are too hard? I guess that's the deal for me-- I've never been able to beat level 6.

Joe Redifer · 11/23/2006, 01:29 AM

The final four levels just aren't as creative as the first four, and the music isn't as good, either. I have beaten the SMS version. I may have beaten the Turbo version but I can't recall. I bet I could beat it with a Game Genie... if one existed.

I am really sad that the bonus stage that's in the SMS version is missing from all other versions. That was a really cool level and had some great music. I'd definitely add it to the list of desirable levels.

_Paul · 11/23/2006, 01:15 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 11/23/2006, 01:29 AMI am really sad that the bonus stage that's in the SMS version is missing from all other versions. That was a really cool level and had some great music. I'd definitely add it to the list of desirable levels.

Yeah I loved that level. It had an admirable amound of sprites on screen for a Master System with no slowdown (at the boss) - as far as I remember anyway. I used to put the invincibility cheat in and let the screen fill up, seeing how full I could get it.

GUTS · 11/23/2006, 02:11 PM

The Master system port was amazing, I'm still blown away by how good of a job they did.

nat · 11/23/2006, 02:42 PM

So I wonder why we didn't get the extra level on the TG? Did Irem do both ports themselves? Which port came first?

_Paul · 11/23/2006, 04:20 PM

Quote from: nat on 11/23/2006, 02:42 PMSo I wonder why we didn't get the extra level on the TG? Did Irem do both ports themselves? Which port came first?

Sega programmed the SMS version and Hudson did the PC Engine one. The bonus level was probably added by the Sega team for a bit of fun and I guess is not official in any way so it wouldn't appear on any other version. Both were 1988 but I don't know the exact release date of the SMS version to say which is first.

Tatsujin · 11/24/2006, 02:25 AM

this isn't correct at all

compile programmed the SMS version, while hudson took the part of the PCE version. but contrary to all other R-Type versions existing, hudson contained an extralevelboss for the level 6, which you only can find on the pce r-type.

Joe Redifer · 11/24/2006, 02:50 AM

Quote from: Tatsujincompile programmed the SMS version

This makes an extreme amount of sense. There are Power Strike jingles hidden in R-Type SMS's sound test (the tune when you get an extra life that plays in Power Strike, Musha, Robo Aleste, etc). It is not used in the actual game that I know of.

Keranu · 11/24/2006, 03:16 AM

Cool shit, I didn't know about this stuff!

_Paul · 11/24/2006, 12:39 PM

Sucks for Compile - they didn't even get a credit on the title screen.

nat · 11/24/2006, 01:37 PM

Quote from: guest on 11/24/2006, 12:39 PMSucks for Compile - they didn't even get a credit on the title screen.

Well, that's why I was asking.

Hudson doesn't get a credit on the PCE/TG version, either, if they are really the ones who did the port. At least, not on the CD. Irem is the only company mentioned.

GUTS · 11/24/2006, 02:20 PM

Its weird how on those old games the companies that actually did the ports didn't get credit until you beat the game, or sometimes not at all.

_Paul · 11/24/2006, 02:27 PM

Quote from: nat on 11/24/2006, 01:37 PM
Quote from: guest on 11/24/2006, 12:39 PMSucks for Compile - they didn't even get a credit on the title screen.
Well, that's why I was asking.

Hudson doesn't get a credit on the PCE/TG version, either, if they are really the ones who did the port. At least, not on the CD. Irem is the only company mentioned.

Hudson do on the card, I wasn't aware they didn't on the CD version.

Joe Redifer · 11/24/2006, 07:30 PM

I thought IREM themselves did the HuCard version and the CD version since the game runs in the higher resolution that IREM games tend to have and that Hudson games never seem to have.

nat · 11/24/2006, 11:13 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 11/24/2006, 07:30 PMI thought IREM themselves did the HuCard version and the CD version since the game runs in the higher resolution that IREM games tend to have and that Hudson games never seem to have.

Me too, to be honest. I don't have the HuCard handy to check, but I'll take Paul's word that Hudson is credited. Maybe Hudson had no part in the CD version at all. And maybe Hudson's role in the HuCard version was minor to begin with. Perhaps Irem really DID do the port themselves, but Hudson just released/published it. This would actually make sense. If you notice, when you boot the cart, you go straight to the title screen. When you boot the CD version, you first get the "Irem" logo splash screen before anything else. This screen is present on all the Irem games I've played on the TG except the R-Type cart.

I wanted to ask about that high resolution, actually. Is Irem the only company that utilized it? As mentioned, it seems most all Irem games use it. Why didn't more games use it? Were there restrictions it imposed that using the "normal" resolution didn't? Were you still able to use as many colors on screen at the higher resolution?

TurboXray · 11/25/2006, 03:32 AM

Quote from: natI wanted to ask about that high resolution, actually. Is Irem the only company that utilized it? As mentioned, it seems most all Irem games use it. Why didn't more games use it? Were there restrictions it imposed that using the "normal" resolution didn't? Were you still able to use as many colors on screen at the higher resolution?

There are a number of games that use it. There no difference in number of colors and palettes for any of the resolution, but dithering tends to work better with higher res. The res mode your refering to is medium resolution mode 352(376max) x 224/240 - high resolution mode is 512(536max) x 224/240 and low resolution mode is 256(288max) x 224/240. When running in mid res mode, you number of graphic tiles to build the display increases as well as the tile map - in other words 64k of vram now fits less than with low res mode. But the biggest draw back by far is that the sprites per scanline line limit does not increase with the increase in horizontal resolution - unlike the genesis. This basically means that there is more of a chance for flicker.

The good number of games that use it and some switch between low and mid resolution modes - Monster Maker goes into mid res mode for the battle scenes. I've seen game cinemas do this also.

_Paul · 11/25/2006, 03:55 AM

Quote from: nat on 11/24/2006, 11:13 PM
Quote from: Joe Redifer on 11/24/2006, 07:30 PMI thought IREM themselves did the HuCard version and the CD version since the game runs in the higher resolution that IREM games tend to have and that Hudson games never seem to have.
Me too, to be honest. I don't have the HuCard handy to check, but I'll take Paul's word that Hudson is credited. Maybe Hudson had no part in the CD version at all. And maybe Hudson's role in the HuCard version was minor to begin with. Perhaps Irem really DID do the port themselves, but Hudson just released/published it. This would actually make sense. If you notice, when you boot the cart, you go straight to the title screen. When you boot the CD version, you first get the "Irem" logo splash screen before anything else. This screen is present on all the Irem games I've played on the TG except the R-Type cart.

Maybe you're right. It could be that Irem wasn't going to jump in and distribute their stuff right away so let Hudson do the work. Although there is one thing that I'm unsure of - all Irem games have the same style of sound on the PC Engine, it's pretty distinctive (very tinkly, I don't like it much). However R-Type sounds completely different and much better. Maybe it was a co-production?

CrackTiger · 11/25/2006, 07:09 PM

Quote from: TurboXray on 11/25/2006, 03:32 AM
Quote from: natI wanted to ask about that high resolution, actually. Is Irem the only company that utilized it? As mentioned, it seems most all Irem games use it. Why didn't more games use it? Were there restrictions it imposed that using the "normal" resolution didn't? Were you still able to use as many colors on screen at the higher resolution?
There are a number of games that use it. There no difference in number of colors and palettes for any of the resolution, but dithering tends to work better with higher res. The res mode your refering to is medium resolution mode 352(376max) x 224/240 - high resolution mode is 512(536max) x 224/240 and low resolution mode is 256(288max) x 224/240. When running in mid res mode, you number of graphic tiles to build the display increases as well as the tile map - in other words 64k of vram now fits less than with low res mode. But the biggest draw back by far is that the sprites per scanline line limit does not increase with the increase in horizontal resolution - unlike the genesis. This basically means that there is more of a chance for flicker.

The good number of games that use it and some switch between low and mid resolution modes - Monster Maker goes into mid res mode for the battle scenes. I've seen game cinemas do this also.

I believe that Shadow Of The Beast jumps between all 3 resolutions during it's intro.