Shooters: Hu vs CD

[TurboXray]

Ok, this needs to be discussed:

I found this supposedly complete list:
https://archives.tg-16.com/complete_list_of_tg16_pce_shooters.htm
of PCe shooters, and there's a good deal more of them in Hucard format than CD. True a few epic games, such as Lords/Gate of Thunder, Star Parodier, hell even Cho Aniki as well as others, are only available on CDROM, and a few of the Hueys might be garbage, or barely fit in the SHMUP genre if at all, but there seems to be a lot to love available on Hucard, SHMUP or otherwise, and Hudson did continue to release games on Hucard for as long as the Duo was in production, both in Japan and US.

Ok, Top tier CD vs top tier Hucard scooters, then 2nd tier, 3rd tier, etc.

My list...

-Top tier CD shmups in no particular order:

Gate of Thunder
Lords Of Thunder
Cotton
Spriggan
Spriggan Mark 2
Gradius 2
Sapphire
Macross 2036
Sylphia
Star Parodia
Kiaiden 00
Rayxanber III
Nexzr
Forgotten Worlds
Super Raiden
Super Darius II (I like this one, but it barely makes the top tier list)


-Top tier Hucard shmups in no particular order:
Blazing Lazers
Super Star Soldier
Final Soldier
Soldier Blade
Parodius
TwinBee
AeroBlasters
Air Zonk
Magical Chase
R-Type


NOTE: The link in that quote isn't the full list of shooters, and there are about 6 titles that don't belong on that list. Shmups.com has a better list (hu list and CD list)

[CrackTiger]

I agree about Super Darius II, but it is indeed "epic" on a level that no HuCards approach.

Don't forget about

Download 2
R-Type Complete CD
Cho Aniki
Ai Cho Aniki
Rayxanber II


HuCard:

Download


Really, Super Darius /Plus is also epic in a way unique for the generation. But so many other CD games could be included as well if you're judging the overall experiences and not ignoring aesthetics and atmosphere altogether.

[jtucci31]

Tatsujin is best hucard shooter.

Aldynes is great if you still want to consider it in the Hu category  (which it should be)

[esteban]

NOTE: The link in that quote isn't the full list of shooters, and there are about 6 titles that don't belong on that list. Shmups.com has a better list (hu list and CD list)

I think I missed Toy Shop Boys? Power Gate? Or something like that.... (I thought it would be funny to leave *one* off the list...but I may have missed more? Damn. That was not intentional.)

But what are the six to strike?

Note: I intentionally included games that are not "shmup", but would appeal to folks who like shmups (like rail shooter Space Harrier). They are labeled as such.

[Gypsy]

I agree about Super Darius II, but it is indeed "epic" on a level that no HuCards approach.

Don't forget about

Download 2
R-Type Complete CD
Cho Aniki
Ai Cho Aniki
Rayxanber II


HuCard:

Download


Really, Super Darius /Plus is also epic in a way unique for the generation. But so many other CD games could be included as well if you're judging the overall experiences and not ignoring aesthetics and atmosphere altogether.

Completely agree. The gameplay in Ai Cho Aniki takes some getting used to but it's a great game. Want to play the others you mentioned but haven't yet.

[CrackTiger]

I don't recommend R-Type CD, but it technically looks and plays like the PCE HuCard R-Types.

Download 2 is one of the systems killer apps and there's nothing else quite like it in the 16-bit generation.

[Otaking]

Hana Taka Daka

[spenoza]

I don't think ANY of the 16-bit ports of Raiden are particularly outstanding shooters, Super Raiden included, so I would probably not include it  : )

[esteban]

I don't think ANY of the 16-bit ports of Raiden are particularly outstanding shooters, Super Raiden included, so I would probably not include it  : )

You are crazy!

Even if you don't like Raiden, you cannot deny how awesome the PCE port is.

I played Raiden in the arcade all the time.

The TG-16 version did not feel like a cheap, inferior joke.

It was a very competent downgrade, sure, but perfectly respectable.

[StarDust4Ever]

Ok, this needs to be discussed:

[...]

-Top tier Hucard shmups in no particular order:
Blazing Lazers
Super Star Soldier
Final Soldier
Soldier Blade
Parodius
TwinBee
AeroBlasters
Air Zonk
Magical Chase
R-Type


NOTE: The link in that quote isn't the full list of shooters, and there are about 6 titles that don't belong on that list. Shmups.com has a better list (hu list and CD list)

Pretty good list. I'd like to add Galaga 88/90 to the Hucard list as even though it's single screen, it's a fantastic game if you're a fan of single screen arcade SHMUPs.

So only Blazing Lazers/Gunhed, Super Star Soldier, and Soldier Blade come highly recommended in the Vertical SHMUP category? All three play very similar so if you love Blazing Lazers and want more, SSS and SB make worthy sequels...

Oh yeah and Twinbee is vertical too I believe. I've now got everything on the list except Twinbee, Aero Blasters, and R-Type (MC is a repro). Aero Blasters and R-type are tough though. Did they combine both R-types in the US?release? I notice the US ROM is bigger than the Japan one. How do I access the second part?

Also any other Hucard Horizontal Cute-Em-Ups come recommended besides the excellent Parodius, Air Zonk, and possibly Coryoon?

[TurboXray]

Of course, these just preferences/opinion of what you consider top tier. It's not that I don't like other shmups, because I definitely do (Psychic Storm is great), but not all of them are refined softs, etc.

 

I think I missed Toy Shop Boys? Power Gate? Or something like that.... (I thought it would be funny to leave *one* off the list...but I may have missed more? Damn. That was not intentional.)

But what are the six to strike?

Besides some PCFX stuff on there, yeah the games that aren't shooters but might have a shooter stage or two. I don't count those (or Space Harrier, After Burner, etc). Final Zone II is a top down run n' gun - not a shmup.

possibly Coryoon?

Coryoon's ok, but it's not top tier stuffs. Not even close to Air Zonk, which uses the same engine.

Did they combine both R-types in the US release?

Yup. I also like the CD version, but the game is just recycled. They didn't add anything new, or modified or enhance the engine at all! So not top tier. SideArms on CD is better, especially because it has the two modes/games, but I never thought of that game itself as top tier material (although I do like it and used to play it in the arcades as well).

[ccovell]

Did they combine both R-types in the US?release? I notice the US ROM is bigger than the Japan one. How do I access the second part?

Run a flathead screwdriver across the pins on the Turbografx's expansion port.  It'll boot up the 2nd half of R-Type eventually.  (You assume all risk of damage.)

[esteban]

I think I missed Toy Shop Boys? Power Gate? Or something like that.... (I thought it would be funny to leave *one* off the list...but I may have missed more? Damn. That was not intentional.)

But what are the six to strike?

Besides some PCFX stuff on there, yeah the games that aren't shooters but might have a shooter stage or two. I don't count those (or Space Harrier, After Burner, etc). Final Zone II is a top down run n' gun - not a shmup.

The page is entitled "Complete List of TG-16/PCE Shoot-em-ups/Shmups/Rail Shooters (TurboGrafx-16, PC-Engine, SuperGrafx, PC-FX, LaserActive LD-ROM)"...

I guess you didn't read the "notes" column (or click on the filter labeled "Hidden SHMUPS" at the top of the table)—I wanted to document any stage/mini game/etc. that was a shootemup, even if the game proper was an RPG, platformer, Ultra Box, etc.

https://archives.tg-16.com/complete_list_of_tg16_pce_shooters.htm?col=notes&val=hidden


Velder pilots a helicopter in TWO vertical shooter STAGES in Final Zone II.




These are all labeled "hidden" in the notes column (for lack of a better term) because most folks forget that there are shootemup sequences in games like Final Zone II and Yo Bro.



The goal was to be as "complete" as possible, so the boss stages of Monster Lair count, as do Bravoman submarine stages, flying skull in Ghost Manor, etc.

I would never claim that Shadow of the Beast is a horizontal shootemup. But is there a hori shmup sequence  in Shadow of the Beast?

Yup.

As I mentioned earlier, Rail Shooters are labeled as such. They appeal to many shooter fans, so I wanted to include them, especially because some of them are lesser known (LaserActive, Battle Ace).

[CrackTiger]

Turbo R-Type is the complete game and runs at a slightly loser resolution, which is supposed to reduce flicker.

[NecroPhile]

I won't say they're "epic" (I'm not 12 years old), but I'd put Sylphia and 1941 in the top tier.  Galaga and Atlantean qualify too; they're not terribly impressive compared to all shewties, maybe, but they're damn good considering the early 80's arcade formulas they follow.

Run a flathead screwdriver across the pins on the Turbografx's expansion port.  It'll boot up the 2nd half of R-Type eventually.  (You assume all risk of damage.)

I see that stardust has earned some real friends here. 

[spenoza]

I don't think ANY of the 16-bit ports of Raiden are particularly outstanding shooters, Super Raiden included, so I would probably not include it  : )

You are crazy!

Even if you don't like Raiden, you cannot deny how awesome the PCE port is.

I played Raiden in the arcade all the time.

The TG-16 version did not feel like a cheap, inferior joke.

It was a very competent downgrade, sure, but perfectly respectable.

Oh, I think Raiden is an awesome game, but IMO the gameplay alone isn't quite enough for me. I need the full graphics and audio package to really enjoy it. It it one of those games that I think fundamentally suffers from the necessary downgrade that results from porting to 16-bit systems. I feel this way because I think Raiden is one of the proto-precursors of danmaku shooters. Pretty tight hitbox and bullet patterns that can get pretty heavy at times (for the era, anyway). It relies on being able to put a lot of pretty stuff on the screen and make you sort it out. And because the game is dodge and bullet heavy, with only two variants of each type of weapon, the mechanics end up being pretty simple. Shoot, dodge, bomb. I think the PCE port is the best 16-bit port, but I think that's still not good enough.

[CrackTiger]

The PC Engine versions of Raiden are best because it's the only hardware that is able to put a lot of pretty stuff on the screen and make you sort it out. The Genesis version scrolls painfully slow and has 2 - 4 times fewer enemies flying at you than the PCE version. A Black Falcon loves to brag about how the SNES version is the only 16-bit port to feature co-op play. What he doesn't ever tell you is that it throws 2 - 4 times fewer enemies at you than the Genesis version. So you literally often face a single enemy at times when the PCE version throws 8+ at a time and 20+ will come thriw within the span of that single enemy on SNES. To the Genesis' version's credit, it does look to be tossing around about as much as the arcade.

I don't own the arcade version of Raiden and haven't fooled around with the setting in emulators. So maybe every arcade play video I've seen just had the difficulty set to zero?

[geise]

For Hu I would add Override to that list.  Yeah it's a lot more "simplistic" of a shooter but it is a very easy pick up and play game.  It has enjoyable tunes and a decent weapon system.  It's a little easy, but a very fun game.

For CD I feel Psychic Storm and Hellfire S needs to be on that list.  I guess I'm in the minority with those games, but they are shooters I find myself always going back to and playing. Hellfire S especially.

[CrackTiger]

I love Psychic Storm and it has that epic feel to it with the transformations, special effects, crazy giant bosses and cinematics.

I don't really like Hellfire or Zero Wing in any form.

[TurboXray]

I love Psychic Storm too (play it quite a bit), but I don't think it's top tier (maybe border line). It's up there though. I wish Psychic Storm had come out here (it was listed as such).

[SavagePencil]

I would argue that Image Fight merits inclusion on the list.  I've never played the sequel, however.

[CrackTiger]

RAIDEN COMPARISON


Time counted from appearance of 1st enemy until last enemy before pre-boss music kicks in:

PC ENGINE: 1:34 -default difficulty
ARCADE: 2:00 -HARD difficulty
GENESIS: 2:34 -PRO difficulty (harder than HARD)
SNES: 1:12 -default difficulty


SNES version wasn't moving super fast and included some slowdown. Appears to have less length.

Confirmed that one of the GENESIS videos I watched was NTSC and not PAL. The GENESIS version scrolls slowly, which should allow more opportunities for waves of enemies, but it's both slower and less populated.

PC ENGINE version measured was the HuCard and not Super Raiden.




Number of enemies within the period measured above:

PC ENGINE: 170
ARCADE: 89
GENESIS: 89
SNES: 62


Likely counted extra for SNES, since the playthrough used a powerful weapon which killed many enemies before I could distinguish them from crates/medals. Counted the sounds either way.

I've read several times that the SNES version only runs at 30fps. I can't say for sure, but it sure looks like it in a 60fps video I watched.

Likely counted fewer than PC ENGINE actually features, because it is so hard to keep up with the constant barrage of enemies filling the screen.

PC ENGINE Raiden still includes the shadow sprites from the ARCADE version! It appears from videos and screenshots that the GENESIS and SNES versions do not include the extra shadows.

PC ENGINE version handles all of this and still uses sprites for the score/lives/bombs HUD, while the SNES and GENESIS versions put that stuff on a tile layer to try to cut down on sprites even further.








Between the enemies that you can see just died and the ones still flying around the screen, this random scene from the PC ENGINE version alone features 17% of the total number of pre-boss enemies in the SNES version and 19% of the total number of enemies found in the GENESIS and ARCADE versions. Literally a single screen from the PC ENGINE version.




In comparisons on various forums and in comments on videos that both attract the best and worst kinds of commentators, you still see console war enthusiasts describe the GENESIS version as "a little blander color, but more of everything" or how "it's the only port that isn't stretched". Obviously that play area window isn't 224 x 256, so no matter what it isn't going to be the arcade perspective and detail at home. If you actually look at the GENESIS version re-sized to 4:3 perspective and compare it to the arcade at 3:4, it's still distorted. Some ways better and some ways worse than the PC ENGINE version. Both the GENESIS and PC ENGINE versions re-proportioned and/or re-drew certain assets to make them look better on a TV screen.


Like too many 16-bit comparisons or casual comments about single versions, most people just talk out their ass and can't even tell what is or isn't going on in gameplay videos or even when they play the games themselves.




Anyhow, if you like action and intensity in shooters and appreciate only-in-the-arcade far-beyond-the-arcade level of sprite pushing, then the PC ENGINE versions are the only ones to play.

[exodus]

When it comes to raiden, the jaguar port is real smooth!

[SignOfZeta]

I agree that all these early ports suffer so much visually that I'd rather just play something else. Raiden is wonderful looking in the arcade but it's not all that amazingly unique as a shooter so when the graphics take a hit the game suffers as a whole for me.

I also agree that the Jag version was a huge step up but then the PS version came out which I seem to remember being super good.

[esteban]

DAMN.

B_T's post is Le Truth.

I love how methodical he is (he used to do stuff like this all the time )

ALL HAIL PCE RAIDEN

I agree that all these early ports suffer so much visually that I'd rather just play something else. Raiden is wonderful looking in the arcade but it's not all that amazingly unique as a shooter so when the graphics take a hit the game suffers as a whole for me.

I also agree that the Jag version was a huge step up but then the PS version came out which I seem to remember being super good.

I have the PlayStation Raiden. I also played Raiden in the arcade tons (back in the day).

PCE version is still awesome. See B_T's post.

[TurboXray]

B_T you need to do a webpage on this!

[spenoza]

RAIDEN COMPARISON

All of that is interesting and informative, but doesn't change the fact that I don't like the way the PCE version looks, sounds, and plays compared to the arcade and the PS1 Raiden Project. Facts are awesome, but in this case they don't change how I feel when I'm playing the game. You can tell me all the wonderful and better things in one plate of food compared to another, but the one that tastes best to me is the winner, everything else be damned.

I love your comparisons, but a convert it did not make.

[TurboXray]

Frag and I did a hack to the SCD version. We ran out of room to finish it (ram), but it had alternate sound tracks, ship color options, turn off extra levels, respawn options, high res mode, and difficulty modes.

 Since TED 2.4 is out, with SCD+512k, I might finish the hack.

[esteban]

RAIDEN COMPARISON

All of that is interesting and informative, but doesn't change the fact that I don't like the way the PCE version looks, sounds, and plays compared to the arcade and the PS1 Raiden Project. Facts are awesome, but in this case they don't change how I feel when I'm playing the game. You can tell me all the wonderful and better things in one plate of food compared to another, but the one that tastes best to me is the winner, everything else be damned.

I love your comparisons, but a convert it did not make.

I stand by my earlier statement: you are crazy.

I still love you, but you are crazy.



P.S. What?! Crazy.

[CrackTiger]

I'm not a fan of Raiden in general and one of the reasons is that when it came out I didn't like visuals. That kind of style was cool for older games like Tiger Heli, but unlocking the potential to do pretty much anything by going sci-fi... and this is what you wound up with?

Still, I like the challenge of the PCE versions throwing an impossible amount of enemies and bullets at you.

[Dicer]

For me...

Hueys:
Blazing Lazers
Final Soldier
Super Star Soldier
Magical Chase
Psychosis(Paranoia) love the concept and all that
Cyber Core
Parodius Da!
Download

CD:
Download 2
Spriggan
Spriggan MkII (The superior spriggan, come at me)
Gates/Lords O' Thunder
R-type Complete (Yes I like the cut-scenes and goofy remixes)
Psychic Storm
Star Parodier (The ultimate cute-em-up)

Both seem to come out evenly for me, there are more I could add to each list but those are the stand-outs.

[esteban]

There was NOTHING groundbreaking about Raiden. Quite the opposite. However, despite its inherently generic nature, it remains  a nicely executed regurgitation.

[CrackTiger]

When it comes to raiden, the jaguar port is real smooth!

It's a remake with re-drawn visuals which are unfortunately airbrushed, similar to the fugly fm-towns version of Sgadiw of the Beast. The Playstation version is at least a proper port of the arcade.

The Jaguar version is still one of the better games for the system, but it's very disappointing to look at.

[Otaking]

I never really played Raiden mush in the arcades, but I have always loved the PC Engine HuCard version. Never managed to beat it though.

[spenoza]

My Playstation copy of Raiden Project is my Raiden jam. I just can't get on board with a lesser port. Probably because it's one of the few shooters I encountered in the arcade a lot well prior to a home port. I just couldn't help but be disappointed with less. Raiden is also one of my all-time favorite shooters, too, so that doesn't help.

I actually prefer the PCE original shooters to arcade ports, anyway. Blazing Lazers will always be one of my favorite PCE shooters.

[johnnykonami]

I was never interested in Raiden bitd, but I have always remembered all the 6meg! hubbub.  I like a little sci-fi or fantasy in my shooters, so stuff that just involves planes, helicopters and tanks is a hard sell on me.  I recently softened up my stance on 1941 and 1943 on the PCE/SGX though and am starting to enjoy them.  P47 is also decent in my book.

[esteban]

My Playstation copy of Raiden Project is my Raiden jam. I just can't get on board with a lesser port. Probably because it's one of the few shooters I encountered in the arcade a lot well prior to a home port. I just couldn't help but be disappointed with less. Raiden is also one of my all-time favorite shooters, too, so that doesn't help.

I actually prefer the PCE original shooters to arcade ports, anyway. Blazing Lazers will always be one of my favorite PCE shooters.

Super Raiden PCE crushes the sad little PlayStation Raiden.

[spenoza]

So, BT, when are you going to do a massive comparison video putting the various 16-bit Raiden ports in their place, eh?

[imparanoic]

So, CrackTiger, when are you going to do a massive comparison video putting the various 16-bit Raiden ports in their place, eh?

[CrackTiger]

So, BT, when are you going to do a massive comparison video putting the various 16-bit Raiden ports in their place, eh?

Probably after I retire. I don't have enough time to finish comparisons for games I actually care about.


imparanoic: those kinds of videos are only good if someone is curious about what a particular version might look like or they're the type who want to know what versions might exist,  can't be bothered to google.

They literally compare nothing and usually just feature shoet clips of imperfect emulation in an order that makes it difficult to follow. There is a decent side by side comparison video with the Genesis and TG-16 versions of Raiden.

By decent, I mean that it is at least side by side and not too short. It still doesn't do anything to actually compare any aspect and as such, the few English comments are the typical "PCE version sux".

[Gentlegamer]

Anyhow, if you like action and intensity in shooters and appreciate only-in-the-arcade far-beyond-the-arcade level of sprite pushing, then the PC ENGINE versions are the only ones to play.

It has the far-beyond-the-arcade feel!

[esteban]

Indeed.