Normal to see reproduced Cases on games that did not originally include them?

[jonebone]

I did my research (great resources here btw), and a lot of the later releases only came with the plastic tray and no inner case as far as I can tell.  For the specific game in question, I'm referring to Legend of Hero Tonma.

I saw this pop up on eBay and it says case / manual / hu-card with no mention of the case being a reproduction.  Just says "All in Mint condition".

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Legend-Of-Hero-Tonma-Turbografx-Hu-Card-Manual-Case-/282088064560

Is this commonplace or is that a sketchy move by the seller?  Is it assumed that any prospective buyer should know that the case is not original?  Just curious what the consensus opinion would be.

[bob]

...Is it assumed that any prospective buyer should know that the case is not original?

yes.

[CrackTiger]

Most Turbo collectors and resellers don't knpw what all the games are or what they came with. They also tend to be selective about what counts as "complete". So when it comes to people selling Turbo stuff, you tend to get a mixture of ignorance and deception.

[bob]

Most Turbo collectors and resellers don't knpw what all the games are or what they came with. They also tend to be selective about what counts as "complete". So when it comes to people selling Turbo stuff, you tend to get a mixture of ignorance and deception.

i remember a few years ago, somebody listed a VGA bricked tonma for like 600.  i messaged the guy and said if i bought it, i was going to break it open to play it.  he responded with, i am selling a collectors item and i cant be responsible for what is inside the box.

haha.  scumbag.

[esteban]

Most Turbo collectors and resellers don't knpw what all the games are or what they came with. They also tend to be selective about what counts as "complete". So when it comes to people selling Turbo stuff, you tend to get a mixture of ignorance and deception.

Absolutely.

To build on B_T's idea of "mixture ignorance and deception"...

An average person, casually looking at TG-16 sales/auctions, certainly gets the impression that jewel cases were included with all (or nearly all) standard releases.

Even if a buyer was aware that *some* TG-16 HuCARDs lacked the jewel case, I would not fault him for getting fooled by a nicely made label on a salvaged jewel case. Hopefully, upon actually inspecting the item, a buyer could determine that it was a repro.



PAY IT FORWARD
Ignorant buyers, in turn, can become ignorant sellers. That really creates an ugly situation, because the sellers have no reason to suspect that they are being deceptive when they sell their "genuine" items.




TRENDS
The whole "reproduction" trend has exploded in the last few years, so we see many more homemade jewel cases + labels. COMBINE THIS with the fact that most of the current buyers have little-to-no direct experience buying these games retail BITD...(the same is probably true for the sellers, too, now that I think about it).

I can tell you that 15-20 years ago, very few people were putting any TG-16 repros on eBay. And they were usually very amateurish.

I suspect that in the next few years we will reach the "tipping" point"....where 50% or more of most "collections" contain components (label, case, manual, game, etc.) that are reproductions. That trend will only increase.



I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER
A seller might put Soldier Blade in a Keith Courage jewel case...since the photos don't show the spine of the jewel case, an idiot might buy it thinking Soldier Blade came with a case. THIS WAS ME. I just impulsively wanted the NA version and looked at the photos in the auction... I forgot that Soldier Blade was a late release. The seller noted his auction included a generic jewel box, but I skimmed past that part of the description. So...I should have known better. However, that doesn't mean that I put 100% of responsibility on buyers.



IGNORANCE VS. DECEPTION
I think most people (buyers, sellers) are ignorant about TG-16. That's fine, because only a sad, sad person (myself included) is well-versed in all this arcana.

However, there MOST CERTAINLY are shady opportunists who feign ignorance...I have seen intentionally misleading/deceptive sellers. Every community has its wolves/parasites that prey and systematically exploit ignorance.

[CrackTiger]

"Repro" docs are becoming popular among flippers to pad their sale prices while feigning ignorance if caught.

[schweaty]

i dont think putting your original manual and original hucard in a donor case and slapping a new label on it is wrong at all.  i guess maybe if someone was trying to pass it off as an "original case" or something it would be deceptive, but i dont ever remember seeing that in a a description.  i also dont see anything wrong with calling it CIC (complete in case for the new folks).

if the game never came with a jewel case and you dont have the box, what are you supposed to do?  just leave the game and manual lying around on the kitchen countertop? 

seriously, if you as a buyer dont know which games came in a jewel case or box/tray only, should you be spending so much money on a video game?  some of this has to be on the buyer doing some due diligence

[esteban]

i dont think putting your original manual and original hucard in a donor case and slapping a new label on it is wrong at all.  i guess maybe if someone was trying to pass it off as an "original case" or something it would be deceptive, but i dont ever remember seeing that in a a description.  i also dont see anything wrong with calling it CIC (complete in case for the new folks).

if the game never came with a jewel case and you dont have the box, what are you supposed to do?  just leave the game and manual lying around on the kitchen countertop? 

seriously, if you as a buyer dont know which games came in a jewel case or box/tray only, should you be spending so much money on a video game?  some of this has to be on the buyer doing some due diligence

Nobody said there was anything wrong in making your own homemade cases. People have been doing that forever.

What *IS* unacceptable is when a person selling/trading and item does not BLUNTLY, PLAINLY IDENTIFY IT AS SUCH (a reproduction).

Obviously, the buyer is saddled with the ultimate responsibility (due diligence), but this situation does NOT ABSOLVE DECEPTIVE SELLERS.

Yes, I will hold merchants accountable to basic civility. Otherwise, we are settling for a sh*tty world.

[schweaty]

i guess here is where i draw the line:  if someone buys a game CIC (that did originally come with a jewel case) with a new label then sells it later without knowing/disclosing vs someone printing a manual/map and selling it.  i see these as completely different situations.  not in the same category at all of what is acceptable and what is not.

[NecroPhile]

Is this commonplace or is that a sketchy move by the seller?

I wouldn't say it's sketchy, seeing as it's impossible to pass off a reproduction as original when there's no such thing as an original in the first place.  A good seller would mention what it is, though, just so there's no surprises and complaints; and to this seller's credit, he did update the description to be more accurate.

Is it assumed that any prospective buyer should know that the case is not original?

Pretty much.  Anyone shelling out hundreds of dollars for a single title should know what they're buying, at least when it's this obvious that it's not original.

[jonebone]

I guess the answers make sense... best comparison from where I come from would be Super Mario / Duck Hunt.  Never came with a box, so if it is being sold as "Complete in Box", it is implied that the box is a reproduction.  However, I've definitely seen sellers neglect to mention that and try to sell it as a "RARE" CIB at significant markup, so there is a bit of buyer beware out there.

[xcrement5x]

I guess the answers make sense... best comparison from where I come from would be Super Mario / Duck Hunt.  Never came with a box, so if it is being sold as "Complete in Box", it is implied that the box is a reproduction.  However, I've definitely seen sellers neglect to mention that and try to sell it as a "RARE" CIB at significant markup, so there is a bit of buyer beware out there.

People abusing poor ol Tusk's hard work.

Yeah, with everything on ebay there is a level of caveat emptor.  The main reason I buy though people on forums over ebay is because people are normally more upfront about stuff since your rep is also on the line, instead of just your "valuable" ebay feedback. 

[SignOfZeta]

Do you ever wonder why you never see this issue with people who collect other things? I mean, I have a lot of white lable 12"s and I know a lot of people with a lot more. Nobody spends hours in Photoshop making dumb fake sleeves for them. Nobody gives a flying fuck how it "looks on a shelf". To even suggest such a thing would have you labeled a poseur and a slob for fucking with historical record.

Why are gamers so obsessed with this?

[esteban]

Do you ever wonder why you never see this issue with people who collect other things? I mean, I have a lot of white lable 12"s and I know a lot of people with a lot more. Nobody spends hours in Photoshop making dumb fake sleeves for them. Nobody gives a flying fuck how it "looks on a shelf". To even suggest such a thing would have you labeled a poseur and a slob for fucking with historical record.

Why are gamers so obsessed with this?

I think we are all fucking retarded.

Some more than others.

Fucking.

Idiots.

[ginoscope]

Do you ever wonder why you never see this issue with people who collect other things? I mean, I have a lot of white lable 12"s and I know a lot of people with a lot more. Nobody spends hours in Photoshop making dumb fake sleeves for them. Nobody gives a flying fuck how it "looks on a shelf". To even suggest such a thing would have you labeled a poseur and a slob for fucking with historical record.

Why are gamers so obsessed with this?

I think we are all fucking retarded.

Some more than others.

Fucking.

Idiots.

LOL true story

[CrackTiger]

Tobias made repro laserdisc dvds in mini sleeves.

[SignOfZeta]

Tobias made repro laserdisc dvds in mini sleeves.

...ok. Not really the same thing. First off, he's a game bootlegger and these are game footage LDs we're talking about (I assume) so it's still pretty much game bootlegging. Secondly, once having made the thing it's only logical to make some kind of case for it. Shrinking the LD packaging was the closest thing to what he does with all his other overpriced crap.

To be clear, all collectors value completeness to some extent. With gamers though it seems to have gotten way out of control. A game can't just come with every single thing that originally shipped with it, %100 complete, it has to have a case or something, some 20 years later inkjet bullshit. It has to have a shock box. It has to be %115 complete. The "outer box" is the stupidest. It was stupid when they invented it, having no purpose whatsoever, but it's even stupider to reproduce the thing and then put it in plastic to protect from damage something that never should have been made in the first place since the standard CD case inside is more durable than the plastic or the cardboard already. A feedback loop of otaku fetish runaway.

A lot of Canadan CD singles in the 90s came with no insert, track listing printed on the CD, viewable through the case. I've ever seen anyone make a replacement one. The very idea would be ridiculous and fake and like something a child would do. 

I've see people make back inserts for pack-in Ys, the Hudson music sampler, cases for Magical Chase etc. There is apparently some kind of compulsion.

Is this the same thing as what Neo Geo Freak did, democratized and in a different era? Or is it some other disease?

I have a copy of JB Harold with all the note pages filled it. I love it. It's "unclean" but it's logical and cool and in-period and frankly it's cute. If I bought a game with a fake box I'd just give it to one of you weirdos or throw it in the trash unless it was really fun, like if you drew Super Mario vaping with Bonk and Flink as a cool new cover for Axelay. I'd keep that.

[SignOfZeta]

Wait! I got it! It's like playing with your food. Or picking your zits in public. Like, "leave that shit alone, it'll be fine." That kinda thing.

STOP IT!
(Slaps mouse hand googling for Bonk pics)

[neopolss]

I still cant make myself give a shit about completeness.  I see buyers fret if it doesnt have the stupid ads or a registration card.  Wtf are you going to do?  Mail it in?  I still trash that crap.  I also trash any repro crap that comes in my store, especially if its purpose is just to make something complete.  There is a purpose behind repro, dont get me wrong, but helping collectards make pretty shelves aint it for me.  Ive got a copy of ninja spirit with the label ripped out on the side.  I could replace it.  Even looked once or twice at auctions.  But in the end it does what it needs to just fine - hold the game when im not playing it.  Just play the games man.  None of your friends gives a crap how your games look on a shelf.

[CrackTiger]

An insert/tray liner for the OEM pack-in Ys and Gate of Thunder allows you to find it a CD rack or stack. It's functional, not collectible.

I've seen all kinds of custom and bootleg products for all kinds of collecting over the years. A lot of it is considered fan art by the people interested in it.

Bootleg laserdiscs were everywhere around here when I first moved to Vancouver. Also lots of bootleg deluxe sets/packages for CDs, VHS, laserdiscs, dvds, etc. Part of the influence is Japan's desire for fancy packaging.

Many people keep records and laserdiscs inside an outer plastic sleeve. I made custom jewel cases for my Sega-CD and Saturn games bitd, so I could keep them on CD racks with the rest of my CD games. I hand wrote and drew simple spine labels, not because I needed them 115% 65% complete, only because it made them functional.

When I was younger, I kept the cardboard packaging from my Transformers and the card backs from GI Joe figures. When my parents told me I wasn't allowed to keep it, I cut out all of the artwork I was aaving them for and taped them into a notebook of lined paper. I learned a lot from referencing that artwork when doing my own.

[SignOfZeta]

There are only two PCE games in my collection without inserts. GoT and Ys Duo packins. If I'm ever positively flummoxed looking or them on the shelf I simply look for the two games that didn't come with inserts and there they are. The two easiest to find games in my NEC collection, honestly. A "functional" fake insert would not only be fake bullshit polluting my OEM-only collection but it would honestly make them harder to find.

As for bootleg LDs...like what? I'm interested in this. My experience with LD is that bootlegs are extremely uncommon compared to legit releases, even in places where bootlegging in general was the normal way of enjoying software. They sure don't turn up for sale very often. Recently on the LDDB forum some members have been discussing the Russian LD scene, which actually did exist, astonishingly. The players seem to be all reverse engineered home made stuff, astounding considering how complex an LD player is. Even in this scene the "Russian" LDs seem to have been pressed in the UK with only the jacket being Russian.

And yes, many people keep their LDs in plastic sleeves. Pretty much every serious collector since the format was current, me included. With JP LDs usually people just slit the top of the bag and re-use it. I don't see what that has to do with anything though as its just clear plastic and has no creative side, no bullshit graphics or whatever, and it's definelty needed to protect the jacket, especially shitty US releases. This is a long way from taking a perfectly durable copy of Dungeon Explorer II, making a fake cardboard outer box, then bagging the box. That's just wankery, pure and simple. Do you like games or do you like organizing things?

[NecroPhile]

There are only two PCE games in my collection without inserts...

So you've refused to buy cheaper incomplete games.  Good for you. 

And I guess you're too good for the likes of Motteke Tamago or any of the latter US hueys.  Or maybe you keep 'em loose because they don't deserve homes.

[TurboXray]

Do you like games or do you like organizing things?

False dichotomy.

[SignOfZeta]

There are only two PCE games in my collection without inserts...

So you've refused to buy cheaper incomplete games.  Good for you. 

I don't even understand what you are talking about. These games came free with my Duo. I left them alone. Whats your point? Always make your point when you used a douchebag eye roll emoticon. Otherwise all I see is an emoticon.

And I guess you're too good for the likes of Motteke Tamago or any of the latter US hueys.  Or maybe you keep 'em loose because they don't deserve homes.

I don't even know what the egg game is. Until it was brought up here recently for input on a English name I had never heard of it.

And yes, I'm way too good for late US HuCARDs. That goes without question. The cheap pieces of shit didn't even come with a fucking case.

[SignOfZeta]

Do you like games or do you like organizing things?

False dichotomy.

If you've played your games, it would be.

[TurboXray]

It's not an either/or situation.

[NecroPhile]

I don't even understand what you are talking about. These games came free with my Duo. I left them alone. Whats your point? Always make your point when you used a douchebag eye roll emoticon. Otherwise all I see is an emoticon.

You only own those two games without 'proper' cases, ergo every other game you've bought is complete.  It's really not that difficult to comprehend.

Some people insist on buying only complete games, and some people are content to buy less complete copies and making their own case.  Neither approach is more noble or less collectarded.

I don't even know what the egg game is. Until it was brought up here recently for input on a English name I had never heard of it.

Be proud of your ignorance! 

I couldn't care less if you have Motteke Tamago (or any of the other caseless games), but you having only two caseless games doesn't negate the fact that others have dozens, making fake case inserts entirely functional for them.

And yes, I'm way too good for late US HuCARDs. That goes without question. The cheap pieces of shit didn't even come with a fucking case.

Yeah, only assholes would ever want to play Neutopia II in English or Order of the Griffon.  And they're not just assholes but stupid assholes if they deign to put 'em in cases.

[SignOfZeta]

I don't even understand what you are talking about. These games came free with my Duo. I left them alone. Whats your point? Always make your point when you used a douchebag eye roll emoticon. Otherwise all I see is an emoticon.

You only own those two games without 'proper' cases, ergo every other game you've bought is complete.  It's really not that difficult to comprehend.

Some people insist on buying only complete games, and some people are content to buy less complete copies and making their own case.  Neither approach is more noble or less collectarded.

OK but...I still don't see your point of bringing this up. Almost all of my collection is PCE. Most of it was accumulated years ago. Even now it takes more work to find a case-less PCE game than one that's complete but it was even moreso a decade ago. Are you saying I'm undermining my own argument by not looking harder for shitier copies of things? Truly, I don't know WTF you're on about.

And yes, I'm way too good for late US HuCARDs. That goes without question. The cheap pieces of shit didn't even come with a fucking case.

Yeah, only assholes would ever want to play Neutopia II in English or Order of the Griffon.  And they're not just assholes but stupid assholes if they deign to put 'em in cases.

All I said was that US releases aren't good enough for me. TTI didn't think they were even good enough for a $1 case so the idea wasn't originally mine. They were sabotages by their own creators.

And it has nothing to do with "wanting to play" the games. If someone actually wants to play Order of the Griffon that's one thing, but some toner sniffing ***-ager who collects a US Air Zonk on purpose and then has to put in effort to make a shitty cardboard box for it and wrap it in plastic when he could just get PC Genjin for half the price and have a way better case that doesn't need extra plastic to protect it and a full color manual. Those guys...yeah, I feel comfortable calling them stupid and if they pisses them off then they go take a flying fuck at the moon. That's stupid behavior. That's what stupid behavior looks like in action. Go ahead and type that post about high horses and thinking I'm perfect. I'm sure its just a CTRL=V away but...yeah, that's dumb. Not like buying a tool you're never used dumb or dropping your phone in a lake dumb, more like regrettable tattoo dumb or "whoops, I bought a Chrysler" dumb. Bad priorities dumb. No way does this guy have his credit cards paid off dumb.

As for the egg game. I'm not "proud of my ignorance", asshole. But I'm not ashamed of it either. I had never heard of the game until that one thread and haven't had time to look it up yet. What the fuck is your problem with that? I'm not strutting...or whatever it is you're getting at. I was just saying "I have no opinion of that game since I don't know what it is at all." I don't know what hidden message your antagonistic as hell ass imagined but it isn't real.

[SignOfZeta]

It's not an either/or situation.

It is if you haven't played your games.

Just because YOU aren't in a group of idiots doesn't mean that group doesn't exist. Since half the traffic of this forum is spent flaming collectards I would assume you are familiar with people, such as a cock munch a few weeks ago that genuinely said, no joke, that he was going to get every (US, of course) game and THEN he would play them. Did you not see that? For him I'm saying he's more in love with checking boxes than savoring PSG chip tunes. Some people actually are in the 100th percentile of something, that's how the system works. The broke ass "buying games is for idiots" flash card evangelists are the first percentile.

[esteban]

Zeta, I think the one point that you missed was this:

The *practical* and *utilitarian* aspect of a homemade case.

If a person has a lot of loose CD's/HuCARD's, it is reasonable for them to be housed in a vessel of some sort.

Personally, I use a CD jewel box, unless I have an extra TV Sports Basketball to sacrifice for one of my homeless HuCARDs.

Surely you can see the benefit of having a vessel to store CD/HuCARD.



Otherwise, we love reading your rants, even if you are spitting venom on anyone who comes within three feet.

[NightWolve]

*grabs popcorn*

Otherwise, we love reading your rants, even if you are spitting venom on anyone who comes within three feet.

I haven't seen the forum turn on him in a while, not since Professor I think. This should be good (so far anyway)!

[TheClash603]

The only sure thing on this forum is that there is no sure thing.  People do all sorts of things to their games, I think the buy them all before playing them is a perfect example of idiotic behavior...

But I think maintaining consistency on a shelf is less idiotic.  I don't have barely any TG16 boxes, and they actually cause me quite a bit of stress because my shelf size is hard to determine.  If I put them on the same shelf, I am losing several inches of space because the few boxes are taller than the jewel cases, so that's obnoxious.  If I move them to a different shelf then I have to look for my games in various places and that can be a hassle.

95% of my NES games are loose and fit well in a plastic container I bought, I purposely look for only loose games now because I don't know how to conveniently store the damn games in boxes now.

What does all this mean?  Who the fuck knows.

[TurboXray]

such as a cock munch a few weeks ago that genuinely said, no joke, that he was going to get every (US, of course) game and THEN he would play them. Did you not see that?

I have not. There a number of weird fuckers out there, though, no doubt. Limiting oneself to US games, I think is highly retarded considering the majority of games originate from Japan itself. I mean, this isn't like some C64 or Atari think, were guys are all about western designed games. Waiting until you have all them of before you play a single one... some sort of christmas day fetish. Yeah, no.

[jelloslug]

If I sold a game with a reproduction anything I always listed it as such.

[NecroPhile]

OK but...I still don't see your point of bringing this up.

I brought it up because you brought it up, implying that having only those two uncased (half-cased?) games is the norm and that there's no good reason for anyone else to have more.  You're wrong on both counts.

Almost all of my collection is PCE. Most of it was accumulated years ago. Even now it takes more work to find a case-less PCE game than one that's complete but it was even moreso a decade ago.

Incomplete disc games aren't terribly common, true, but it's not at all difficult to find cheaper, loose hueys.  Also, there's quite a few games that never had regular cases (mooks, special hueys, demos, etc.); they may not be top ten material that everyone should own, but neither are they games that nobody would want.

Are you saying I'm undermining my own argument by not looking harder for shitier copies of things? Truly, I don't know WTF you're on about.

I'm saying there's nothing wrong with buying complete games or incomplete games and making your own case, which is exactly what I said in my previous response had you bothered to read more than the first line before pitching a hissy fit.

And it has nothing to do with "wanting to play" the games. If someone actually wants to play Order of the Griffon that's one thing, but some toner sniffing ***-ager who collects a US Air Zonk on purpose and then has to put in effort to make a shitty cardboard box for it and wrap it in plastic when he could just get PC Genjin for half the price and have a way better case that doesn't need extra plastic to protect it and a full color manual. Those guys...yeah, I feel comfortable calling them stupid and if they pisses them off then they go take a flying fuck at the moon. That's stupid behavior. That's what stupid behavior looks like in action.

I'd agree with you if you were just mocking those that go full out and try to repro everything under the sun (boxes, obis, registration cards, etc.), but you're off base lumping all repro stuff together as 'only for slobbering idiots'.  It's not a black and white world.  I didn't have to go hungry to make cases for latter day TG-16 games, replace damaged spine labels, make translated spine inserts, or print inserts for games that didn't come with 'em; but they sure do come in handy, letting me readily find specific titles without having to first pull 'em off the shelf.

As for the egg game. I'm not "proud of my ignorance", asshole. But I'm not ashamed of it either. I had never heard of the game until that one thread and haven't had time to look it up yet. What the fuck is your problem with that? I'm not strutting...or whatever it is you're getting at. I was just saying "I have no opinion of that game since I don't know what it is at all." I don't know what hidden message your antagonistic as hell ass imagined but it isn't real.

Like I said in the second sentence (another one you couldn't be bothered to read), Motteke Tamago specifically isn't the point.  It's but one of many games that never had real cases, where your only choices are fake cases, equally fake generic cases, or leaving them homeless.

[NightWolve]

Yeah, get 'im, get 'im, Necro! And I thought this thread had already flamed out! ;)

[NecroPhile]

Sorry, my weekends are filled with working a second job to pay for all that 110lb cardstock and toner. 

[esteban]

Sorry, my weekends are filled with working a second job to pay for all that 110lb cardstock and toner. 

Hhahahahahjahjjaha.



I know Zeta printed a repro box and manual for Timeball.