how about a "how much worth is this game"-section?

[Tatsujin]

as seen in other forums, this would be mainly to inform anyone about the actual market price of PCE/TG16 games.

what's needed:

- a separate forum section (where everybody can open a thread for a specific game and ask for its price) -> have to be defined, where to be placed the best.
- format/definition of the thread title: "title of game, system, region/country" (e.g) to keep a clean overview -> Sapphire, PCE ACD, JPN
- someone who administrates it (e.g. mod of the forums where this section would be placed in later) job: to actualize the roughly estimated price by the users, into the title. clean out multiple threads etc.
- rules how to use this section: e.g first use the search function before ask for a games price to prevent multiple threads of the same title etc.
- everybodys cooporation to get a good and representative price guide DB

how do you guys think about such an idea?

[Turbo D]

I think its a great idea!

[NecroPhile]

Not a bad idea, but with a few caveats: prices fluctuate (for a few titles anyway) and the threads would quickly become outdated; few people seem willing to utilize the search function; and lastly, there's too many variables (condition, completeness, who you're buying from, etc.) to easily set a definitive price.

[Tatsujin]

rolf..Comments & Suggestions...how should i 've found this, when this its not anymore on the top site

@nec..yes..of course the threads have to be maintained from time to time. so f.ex. if someone ask a year later again for the price of a game, it may be changed and people who're aware of the momentan price should give their input to update the DB

[guyjin]

I think it's a great idea.

If Aaron doesn't pick up on this, it would be a good feature to add to pcedaisakusen.

[SignOfZeta]

I think this is a bad idea. Lists like this tend to set/fix the prices rather than reflect worth a game might have on any given day. Now when people go to sell or buy any game they will just use this list, rather than something like, say, their brain, to decide what it is worth to them.

All that econ 101 stuff goes right out the window if there is a list somewhere just telling people what to pay. Let them go to digital press.

Also, that BS with "blah blah blah says its a rarity 6!" is just pathetic. These people should be collecting Yu Gi Oh cards...

[Sinistron]

Also, that BS with "blah blah blah says its a rarity 6!" is just pathetic. These people should be collecting Yu Gi Oh cards...

Not sure who you're referring to zeek- but if by chance it is me- my comment concerning Hero Tonma was

"Gets more expensive each time and yet I've seen it on some list as "rarity 4"- meanwhile it's priced like a rarity 7 going on 8."

...which basically means that I know that the lists are total bullshit.  Of course you may have been referring to someone else. 

I think this is a bad idea. Lists like this tend to set/fix the prices rather than reflect worth a game might have on any given day. Now when people go to sell or buy any game they will just use this list, rather than something like, say, their brain, to decide what it is worth to them.

Their brains?  When someone lists a boxed Magical Chase for 6 grand I think that that avenue's long past.
So- if sellers aren't using their brains- then the next available tool is Ebay pricing- which like I've just pointed out is beyond comprehension in too many instances.  SO- now that we've seen that brains do not cut it, nor does Ebay, nor do "rarity lists"- the next and most obvious thing is for the actual gaming community to set these prices together.  Obviously that won't be easy- but to say it isn't worth an attempt is really a short-cut to thinking.

This short-cut suits you.  I can sniff out one of your posts a mile awhile- the fume of someone's un-oiled mind cogs grinding and overheating scream out Gorba the Zeek or Zeta or whatever it is.  You definitely wear that uniform constant- a good character building device- though a little one-note.   

[NecroPhile]

I find that ebay prices are often decent..... if you're not trying to price a rarely auctioned game and as long as you look at sold prices only and ignore the bid war auctions that ended extremely high.

[Sinistron]

Games can be had for decent on Ebay- I've scored some good ones for good prices-
but I think the point is that the inflated auctions and BINs only serve to drive up the price when used as reference-
of course someone with better intentions wouldn't use just the first auction he peeps out as a reference-
but you really can't put it past most of these guys- and even if an over-inflated auction is one among many that a seller uses to gauge a price- it still cuts into his total calculating and reasoning.  It still inflicts damage to a realistic price -- slowly but surely distorting the views on a rational item value.

Let me add something here concerning us making a value list-
It must be noted that the cheapest a game was bought for isn't a realistic fair market value- must be weighed against all prices within a reasonable range. If we decide that so and so is worth 16 bucks- someone telling about an isolated instance in which that game was actually paid for with two peanuts and a cigarette should not disrupt the common value.  That may sound counter to my above paragraph but isn't.  A seller looking to get cash and judging a selling price is different than a group of concerned fans looking to set a fair fixed price window.  Selling and buying - although hand in hand- really are two different things.  One is offense and one is defense (though if you score Drac X for 60 bucks then that may tactically be considered offense eh?  No defensive ground played- just a major killing!).

[PCEngineHell]

This thread def has my attention,and asap when I get home I am going to do a post in detail on this. The guide is a good idea,we need one.

[guyjin]

All that econ 101 stuff goes right out the window if there is a list somewhere just telling people what to pay. Let them go to digital press.

Have you looked at their price list for turbo games? lots of 'em aren't just wrong, they're insane. If anything, we need to insert some rationality back into the values of turbo goods.

[PCEngineHell]

Ok,back home,now for my super duper awesome post.

Zeta,you're still singing that same old song of yours birthed out of your new "low price" religion ehh?
New wordings,but same old bs from you. Again,its moot now for you to take this stance after the fact. I mean,if this is just a feeble attempt to try to fit in with our opinions,you're going about it all wrong anyway. Most of our pricing conflicts are aimed at the extremely insane people like Red Frog demanding we pay extremely high BIN amounts just because they think they can nab it with the TZD name under their belt,and sellers who set unrealistically high starting bid amounts due to over confidence or just plain being mis-informed.

This type of action does not describe everyone selling TG-16 and PCE on ebay and there is a fair middle ground to the prices for the software and the hardware both. Typically the average BIN prices tend to be the common value,and the low start bid amount auctions end at or close to the normal going rate based on supply and demand.Im on there daily and observe this to be the common case. I agree Zeta that buying a  PCE setup instead of a US system will save you money along with just buying the Japanese versions of titles,but its just a matter of fact that this is the time of retro collecting and alot of people want to experience the US side of things for all its ugliness and its gloriness,and collectors spend money. Its a requirement to get what it is you want.

Anyway Zeta,as I said before:

Yep,I was totally thinking this same shit. He bitched and whined about us complaining about the Red Frog thing,esp directing attacks at me,then all the sudden hes out saving the world from Red Frog on his gamessmell radio show. Now hes on here trying to inform and fight against the high prices,jeez Zeta,where were you at back when we all needed you oh wise and mighty savior? Oh yea,I remember now,you were on the other side of the fence telling us to shut the fuck up,thats where.Fucking bipolar.

As far as I'm concerned (not that this opinion matters to anyone besides myself) but you should be banned from taking part in any more of these types of threads,or simply excuse yourself from posting in them. Why you ask? Because you never manage to take part on the positive side of things,you cause more conflict then you do good,and your opinions flip flop more then  a politician's does and every time you still manage to disagree with everyone,almost like you do so just for the sake of being that way......

You just don't get our reasoning maybe and its clearly impossible for you to side with us for the common good on any of these types of subjects. Its too bad too,because I know you're not a idiot,and if you could get your empathy set in the right direction you could be a great help,not a complete hinderance to progress.

Now,as for the price guide. I would be willing to put some work into it if given a list of games to get priced and valued. I think it should be broken down to complete and not complete in this manner:
PCE HUCARD
Complete Upper class=Case,booklet,sleeve,card,mailer,and if extra content,that also.
Complete Lower class=Case,booklet,sleeve,card.
Loose=anything that doesn't = complete or simply put card only.
PCE Cd
Complete upper class=Case,booklet,cd,spine,mailer,and if extra content,that also.
Complete lower class=case,booklet,cd.
Loose=anything that doesn't = complete or simply put disc only.

TG-16 Hu-Card
Complete Upper class= Box,case or plastic tray,manual,sleeve,and game card.
Complete Lower class=case if game originally came with one,manual,sleeve,and game
Loose,anything that doesn't = complete or simply put card only.

TG-16 CD
Complete upper class=Box,case,booklet,cd,and if extra content,that also.
Complete lower class=case,booklet,cd.
Loose=anything that doesn't = complete or simply put disc only.


For that matter any game price should have both the low common average it goes for and the high average it can fetch listed. This can easily be cross referenced on ebay completed auctions,and all it takes is common sense to look at the bidders and see who was just stupid and paid too much versus the normal going amounts auctions ended at and leave the dumb amounts that don't happen hardly ever out of the list values.

Prices should be judged on a assumption everything is in near mint to very good condition,and that if the item is in average condition then $3.00-$4.00 should be deducted off the value for any case unless the disc or hucard has simply just been sand blasted with scuffs and scratches or the manual is held together by faith alone.

Like I said,I would be very willing to put effort in on this if needed,all someone mod wise would have to do is ask me and I would contribute.

[rag-time4]

Now,as for the price guide. I would be willing to put some work into it if given a list of games to get priced and valued. I think it should be broken down to complete and not complete in this manner:
PCE HUCARD
Complete=Case,booklet,sleeve,and card.
Loose=anything that doesn't = complete or simply put card only.
PCE Cd
Complete upper class=Case,booklet,cd,spine,mailer,and if extra content,that also.
Complete lower class=case,booklet,cd.
Loose=anything that doesn't = complete or simply put disc only.

Michael, just wanted to point out that you left off extra content for PCE Hucards... I think Detana!! Twinbee, for example, comes with a sticker sheet. Dunno how many PCE HuCards come with goodies but as a collector I would pay a little extra to get a truly complete copy with the goodies, whether it's a sticker sheet, poster map, artbook, etc...

And also what about reg cards (mailers) for PCE HuCards?

[PCEngineHell]

Yea,I over looked that. I never got a PCE card game with any bonus stuff,but I shouldn't have left out the mailers lol. Ill edit that.

[SignOfZeta]

Mike...you write too much. Let us please take a break from trying to tear into me and stick the subject matter at hand.

All I'm getting at is that once you set a value in a price guide it is *extremely* hard to make the value go down again because most sellers will never price anything lower than that and the buyers will pay it if they want the thing because a guide is telling them that that is what it costs. The idea behind a price guide, in theory, is that the values in the guide are supposed to reflect the real market, but in the end it almost always goes in reverse with all the sellers just relying on the guide to tell them what to charge. I still remember when Wizard magazine came around and jacked the prices of so many comic books completely out of the realm of reason and it would suck to see this happen to games. It very well could too since there are so many people buying overpriced stuff and never playing it. I guess its probably too late already since its pretty obvious people often times enjoy paying a lot of money for stuff much more than they enjoy using the stuff.

Its quite likely that making a PCEFX price guide would bring the values of blue chip games down (especially the US stuff which is verging into the home equity loan territory) and that is a great thing. However at the same time its going to cement the prices of mid-range stuff too almost certainly, and that's a bad thing.

eBay madness with its high BINs can really fuck shit up, but for the normal games, games bought by gamers as opposed to collectors, eBay is extremely effective at setting reasonable prices and adjusting values from day to day. For example the value of Circus Lido absolutely crashed on eBay (more like Yahoo Japan, probably), as it should have, when a huge cache of them was discovered. Without eBay the value would have declined much much slower.

To use another comic book example: the big comic distributor in the US is Diamond. There was a time, this was around 1993/4 I think, when they started selling new copies of books with guide values of $10-50 for a fraction of that. A shitload of stores tried (unsuccessfully in the end, but it took a while) to boycott diamond and use other distributors because they claimed Diamond was undercutting their prices. To me this was insane since Diamond was selling never before used stock of books (Spawn #1 for example) that had been sitting in the warehouse since they were originally released. The stores were purposefully not ordering new copies because they wanted to sell one $10 copy of a book instead of five $2 copies.

This price guide is going to happen eventually no matter what because its just too fun for people to make these lists and watch the value of their collections grow. I guess the good news is that the prices on most stuff will be pretty realistic since the people here know their stuff. The people here still think $100 is a good deal for Might and Magic 3 though, so the list is bound to have its silly points.

[Sinistron]

All I'm getting at is that once you set a value in a price guide it is *extremely* hard to make the value go down again because most sellers will never price anything lower than that and the buyers will pay it if they want the thing because a guide is telling them that that is what it costs.

I don't see why it's so *extremely* hard to make the value go down again.  Most price lists are created and are never fixed to represent the current market.  The community here is ever present on these boards and if we see certain games suddenly more available than before then we would simply adjust the value on the list to reflect these changes.

Regardless of what you feel the impact of price lists are upon the market- the fact is they exist and are already referenced to.  Yet you seem to feel that one more list- a fair one from an official community of fans and collectors no less- will be the tipping point that will suddenly sink the buyer's market into total oblivion.

The people here still think $100 is a good deal for Might and Magic 3 though, so the list is bound to have its silly points.

You CAN chime in too you know.  You are a part of this community and as a fan yourself you probably know a thing or two about fair pricing.  The making of this list I gather would reflect ALL of our opinions.  If your opinion on an item value is not reflected then the chances are good that your opinion on said item is solitary.

[PCEngineHell]

I type too much,compared to what you just typed you mean?????? I think WE were sticking to the subject at hand until you,Zeta,AKA Grumpy Smurf,AKA Zork @ Gamessmell Radio came along to discourage everyone and tear the idea of doing a price guide down. Let me educate you about some things,first by quoting you in short term:

Mike...everything you write is absolutely right half the time,and I only disagree often because mom dropped me on my head often as a suckling. Let us please take a break from trying to set me straight and instead watch as I razzle dazzle you all with my comparisons of the Turbo/PCE market to that of the comics market of the 90ies,my references of Diamond,but avoid the simple fact that the comics market crashed spectacularly in 90-96 and its nothing like the game market. To help you forget the facts these are two entirely different markets I will now post a pic of my best friend Mark.

Ok,now,comics comics comics,high prices suk,low prices good,comics cheap,Diamond sold Spawn and Youngblood 1 cheap,comics are like games,first I said ebay was full of people buying useless shit,but my new religion I made up on the fly states now its extremely effective at setting reasonable prices and adjusting values from day to day on worthwhile items like video games. I luv reading my own words,I hate myself and thats why I always disagree with everyone,the warm bath and razor  is waiting,comics comics comics. The Price guide will happen regardless cause no one listens to a moral flip flopper like me on Gamessmell Radio,oh and BTW I think Nat was a dumb ass who forgot to take his Ritalin when he bought his Might and Magic 3. I'm a gripey brat,nuff said.

Seriously. Comics and games,two different markets Zork. Only punks read Wizard,everyone else stuck with Overstreet anyway and comics prices went up and down far too often just because a character was killed off or a artist left. That kinda shit never happens in the game market. Richter could die tomorrow,Dracula X would still sell over $100. Konami could start making Sonic titles next year,but Sonic 2 will still sell for around $5.00 or less complete on Genesis.

 A price guide here could do alot of good,and no real harm if done right and help anyone new here to get a idea as to fair prices on stuff. You can take your comment about Nat buying Might and Magic 3 and stick it up your ass. He paid the going value on the game,and from a collectors point its worthy to have if your goal is to get the rare items. No matter what you still manage to disagree with everyone and try to be negative about progress. To say the least,you still continue to un-impress me with your obvious contempt for your fellow members here.

[SignOfZeta]

Do you truly think you are being anything other than an infantile twat right now?

[Joe Redifer]

How about a single thread, maybe a sticky?  No need for an entire forum dedicated to the subject.  And I don't even see the thread having much activity except once in a blue moon when someone pops in and asks "How much is dis game worf yo?" and nobody answers him.

[PCEngineHell]

A sticky would work. I think it would get more activity then you think,but not major amounts. If its something I would be involved in,I would be willing to check it every few days,its not like I plan to leave here anytime soon,been here since Jan 2k5. Im obviously sticking around

Do you truly think you are being anything other than my mentor and iconic inspiration right now?

I don't know,a few on the shout box thought it was sold gold funny last nite Zork,check the archive. On a serious side,I wouldn't even bother with you if it wasn't for the fact you piss me off so much because you go out of your way to tear nice members down or be negative in most threads when a idea is proposed. Anymore your name = misery,argue,or insult post. Thats not a good thing when thats all anyone thinks about you.

Also,I mean,from a argument stand point you don't even have good retorts,you're a wash out in the department and you have  a hard time making a good argument. Case in point: comics and games markets were alike. That was the dumbest thing I had ever read in the longest time. I collected comics from 90-97,I can easily testify to them being 2 different markets.

They developed differently in all areas about except for 2 key points,1 being writers/artist go work elsewhere often just like programmers/script writers,ect.. do,and 2 being parents,certain government people, and religious groups gave a hassle about both comics and games. Home video games became a major business in the late 70ies early 80ies being sold EVERYWHERE. Comics were not sold at Sears. If you wanted comics you had to hit the mom and pop drug stores,food stores, or comic shops.

Even after the crash when Nintendo got involved in the home market games could be found everywhere again. Since then there has been no crash. Games that have hit collectible status like the Castlevania series or Mega Man series don't go down in value when a programmer leaves,or the newest title sucks,or when a character dies. The money involved in the gaming business is far larger then that of comics field. There are even more reasons why they are so different,but why bother listing everything,its too obvious anyway without doing so.

My summery for you Zork,you're just one of those guys who don't know when to quit,like Yakov Smirnoff.
Just like him,you continue to sing the same old songs. Your words are different,youve created the new "low price" religion act,but your manners are always the same and you're always negative,grumpy,complaining,and disagreeing. Like Yakov,you think you're so damn witty,but you're not and now you are finding out people are tired of it slowly and surely.

[Tatsujin]

all i can say, we did this years ago in a german console forum and it works and maintains itself just perfectly. event the prices are not 100% accuarte (coz there are no 100% accurate prices), it helps a lot lot to people who wants to know in which price region a game is (e.g. before a purchase, after a purchase, just curious to know...). 

so we can try it or we can let it be. but in any cases it won't hurt anybody. so nothing to loose, just something to win.

[Keranu]

Just wanted to throw my opinion that I would prefer not to have a price guide. It could inflate prices, but it's also hard to find an agreeable price value for some games (I think Bomberman '93 would be a great example here since some say it's very expensive and others say it's averagely priced). Also I don't want PCEFX to turn into the next neo-geo.com .

[Sinistron]

Maybe we should cast a vote.

[Tatsujin]

I think Bomberman '93 would be a great example here since some say it's very expensive and others say it's averagely priced

this can be answered relatively easy. bomberman '93 is a cheap as hell title and shouldn'd be charged with more than $15. if someone wants exorbitant amount for that, he's a racketeer. and exactly for that reason, a guide would help those people who dosen't seem aware of any pricing.

[NecroPhile]

Now,as for the price guide. I would be willing to put some work into it if given a list of games to get priced and valued. I think it should be broken down to complete and not complete in this manner:

I'd just start a thread with 1941's value, as requested in another thread, and then add other titles only when someone asks for 'em.  Trying to compile a comprehensive list now would be an exercise in futility, as few here would bother to review hundreds of titles for accuracy, not to mention that few people would fret over the cheap and common titles anyway.  I also fear that having a complete list now will discourage people from asking about values down the road, which would prevent members from commenting on the current price.

this can be answered relatively easy. bomberman '93 is a cheap as hell title and shouldn'd be charged with more than $15. if someone wants exorbitant amount for that, he's a racketeer. and exactly for that reason, a guide would help those people who dosen't seem aware of any pricing.

Not so fast, Tats.  I'll bet that Keranu was talking about the US version, in which case $15 would be a bit cheap, even for a loose card; a US game with slip cover and manual will run $30-40.

[nat]

this can be answered relatively easy. bomberman '93 is a cheap as hell title and shouldn'd be charged with more than $15. if someone wants exorbitant amount for that, he's a racketeer. and exactly for that reason, a guide would help those people who dosen't seem aware of any pricing.

Not so fast, Tats.  I'll bet that Keranu was talking about the US version, in which case $15 would be a bit cheap, even for a loose card; a US game with slip cover and manual will run $30-40.

I got a crisp minty copy complete with box around three months ago for like $35 or something.

I guess my point is that any kind of good list would need to include a "reasonable price range" for different conditions, completeness, etc.

[PCEngineFX]

If someone creates a thread that becomes worthy of being a sticky, then by all means I will sticky it (just bring it to my attention).