Which RPG has better enemy designs?

[Keranu]

The acient debate has resurfaced.

I vote Cosmic Fantasy 2. It had it's share of ugly and generic looking enemies, but for the most part they were a whole lot more creative than Dragon Slayer's cast of goons.

[DragonmasterDan]

The acient debate has resurfaced.

I vote Cosmic Fantasy 2. It had it's share of ugly and generic looking enemies, but for the most part they were a whole lot more creative than Dragon Slayer's cast of goons.

Definitely Cosmic Fantasy 2, not just the enemy designs, but in general has a better aesthetic style to it.

[SignOfZeta]

Hm....not much of a choice there...

[awack]

I havent played either game and was only able to find a couple of screens, from the little ive seen, ill go with Cosmic Fantasy 2.

[Keranu]

The acient debate has resurfaced.

I vote Cosmic Fantasy 2. It had it's share of ugly and generic looking enemies, but for the most part they were a whole lot more creative than Dragon Slayer's cast of goons.

Definitely Cosmic Fantasy 2, not just the enemy designs, but in general has a better aesthetic style to it.

I think the overworld graphics in Dragon Slayer's kick CF2's butt. CF2 could've looked phenomenal though with some touch ups.

[DragonmasterDan]

I think the overworld graphics in Dragon Slayer's kick CF2's butt. CF2 could've looked phenomenal though with some touch ups.

CF2 isn't exactly a Lunar or Chrono Trigger like masterpiece of visual style. But the character design, town design and existence of cutscenes beyond the intro and ending make it miles ahead of Dragon Slayer.

[Keranu]

The cutscenes are phenomenal, but I thought the towns were some of the ugliest and mudiest on PCE. I like DS' cutesy colorful look, even if it's super small.

[SignOfZeta]

CF2 isn't a CT or Lunar grade game on any level. The ONLY good thing about CF2 are the cutscenes. They are very good. Compared to the rest of the US library they are 10/10 (probably 8/10 in the Japanese library).

Everything else about the game is D+ or worse. Some can say that "the story" is really good, specifically the ending, but the good parts of the story are all in the cutscenes. Everything great about CT happened with no cutscenes.

The rest of CF2, the maps, the dungeons, the music, the gameplay (especially the gameplay, barf) is lame as hell. It makes Dragon Quest 1 look like Dragon Quest 5.

As for the enemy graphics...they are brown and lame just like the towns and the maps. I would argue that even Zork 1 has better enemies...and it doesn't even have graphics.

[DragonmasterDan]

CF2 isn't a CT or Lunar grade game on any level. The ONLY good thing about CF2 are the cutscenes. They are very good. Compared to the rest of the US library they are 10/10 (probably 8/10 in the Japanese library).

Everything else about the game is D+ or worse. Some can say that "the story" is really good, specifically the ending, but the good parts of the story are all in the cutscenes. Everything great about CT happened with no cutscenes.

The rest of CF2, the maps, the dungeons, the music, the gameplay (especially the gameplay, barf) is lame as hell. It makes Dragon Quest 1 look like Dragon Quest 5.

As for the enemy graphics...they are brown and lame just like the towns and the maps. I would argue that even Zork 1 has better enemies...and it doesn't even have graphics.

The story, pacing and localization of CF2 is decent for a 16-bit RPG. But I agree, it's not a CT or Lunar grade game in any way.

[Keranu]

Chrono Trigger sucks.

[DragonmasterDan]

Chrono Trigger sucks.

Blasphemy.

Great visual style, great game design overall. Well paced, great music.

[CrackTiger]

It depends on how much falls under "enemy designs" (the general design? the art? the graphic quality...?). Here's how I feel about the enemies as they appear in general.

Although I haven't played either game in years, one of the weakest aspects of Cosmic Fantasy 2 for me was always the enemy designs and one of the most appealing aspects of Dragon Slayer has always been its enemy designs. It was surprising in recent years to actually hear people saying anything negative about Dragon Slayer's.

I've noticed that CF2's do get dragged down by the visible background and I think that the battles would look much better with solid black bgs. Still, for every enemy in Cosmic 2 that I like or don't really dislike, they aren't nearly as memorable as all the ones I don't like. Part of it is the coloring, I know that many enemies would look better rendered differently and the original artwork probably looks cool. The bosses tend to look better as well.

Dragon Slayer's enemies have always stood out to me for their detail and color. They are what I wanted out of 16-bit graphics and when the game came out, RPGs still had a reputation for having poorer graphics than other genres. The graphics look "perfect". They're so shaded and detailed that they looked more like nice painted artwork than pixelated graphics on TVs back in the day. I also love how the all the coloring works together instead of clashing like many CF2 enemies. I'm assuming that DS's enemies use tiles to look so good.

Separate from the impressive graphic quality, DS's enemy designs are very original while CF2's aren't. Even if a particular enemy in DS is a standard monster, like a golem, the artwork looks nothing like any other game. DS has a noticeable and consistent style, while CF2's is more all over the place. All the extra little angles and barbs and textures and clothing patterns in the DS enemies all make a big difference when compared to other games. The artist went the extra mile to make them special. It's especially impressive considering the confined space they occupy. The DS enemies also look similar to the cooler enemies in the upgraded Ys III ports and other Falcom games.

Here are the enemies from both games that appeared in screenshots on The Brothers Duomazov-


/dsvscf2.png


It's not the best selection for comparing the two games directly, but they highlight many of the strengths and weaknesses to me. Those first three CF2 enemies are a good example of what I'm not crazy about. The snake wasn't too bad of a drawing, but the coloring really ruins it. The second enemy just looks ugly in general to me. When I look at its individual components they look nice, but the pose overall just makes it unappealing from a distance. That spider suffers from terrible coloring. The shading and detail may be very nice, but all I can see is a mess of clashing colors. The wolf man comes close but there's just something off-putting about it. Maybe if his eyes weren't dark green. The two-headed dog/cerberus looks awesome in every way and really stands out in CF2. If only most of the enemies looked like that. The dark knight boss probably looked much better on paper, but turned out frumpy, awkward and kinda gaudy. Galam looks perfectly acceptable, although his right hand might look confusing on real hardware. His coloring still comes of pretty dull though, especially compared to the consistent DS enemies. It's too bad his skin is colored the same as his golden armor. The red in his legs against the same coloring in his cape makes it look like he has holes in the middle of knee-high boots and you can see-through his legs.

In the end even the more average CF2 enemies looked pretty good by 16-bit RPG standards at the time. I never hated them overall, but they added to the game's overall unevenness to me. I was pleasantly surprised to find DS quality fully touched up vibrant enemy graphics in Cosmic Fantasy 3, but disappointed that they were so cartoony. If only CF2's enemy designs got CF3's treatment. I still love CF2 as a whole and always prefer uneven games that do some things special to many bland overly consistent games.

Of course, it seems that nowadays I'm considered the crazy one and will likely get flamed both for questioning Cosmic Fantasy 2 in any way as well as appreciating Dragon Slayer's recently fallen from fame enemies.

CF2 could've looked phenomenal though with some touch ups.

Agreed.

CF2 isn't exactly a Lunar or Chrono Trigger like masterpiece of visual style. But the character design, town design and existence of cutscenes beyond the intro and ending make it miles ahead of Dragon Slayer.

CF2's cinemas are masterpieces compared to Lunar SS Sega/Mega-CD.

The story, pacing and localization of CF2 is decent for a 16-bit RPG. But I agree, it's not a CT or Lunar grade game in any way.

The original Lunar SS for Sega/Mega-CD is pretty shabby looking and Cosmic Fantasy 2's enemies look much better overall. The story, pacing and localization wasn't so hot either. They had a lot of great ideas, unfortunately they never got to finish the game the set out to make. The (underrated) Saturn update gave a clearer version of their vision, but isn't a perfect game either, although it is much more fun. Between the two it's a cool experience. Chrono Trigger is at the very least majorly overrated by fanatics who won't admit any imperfections (often the same goes for Square and Nintendo games in general). It'd be cool if those who call most/all Square and/or Nintendo games perfect gave the same respect to equal or greater games on various consoles, but they tend to to shut everything else out.

Chrono Trigger sucks.

Blasphemy.

Usually I'm interested to hear why others have radically different views of games. Quotes like this sound completely unobjective.

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah, things got way way better for CF3 and the CF4s. Not just the enemy graphics, but everything else as well.

[CrackTiger]

Yeah, things got way way better for CF3 and the CF4s. Not just the enemy graphics, but everything else as well.

I have yet to play through them, but the Cosmic Fantasy 4's look amazing. I especially love the world map graphics. From what little game time I have with them and what I've seen in screen shots, they appear to be some of the nicest looking 16-bit RPGs. Cosmic Fantasy 3 did a much better job with that pointillism style for the maps, but it's still kinda weird and there's no overworld map. The dungeons, cities and everything in-between are all on the same plane.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Cosmic Fantasy's are a bit more detailed.

DS's are more crisp/colorful.   

I like CF2s more though.  They mostly look more sinister.

[ParanoiaDragon]

I personally like DS's better, even though CF2 is the game that got me into RPG's.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

I like Dragon Slayers baddies better than Cosmic Fantasy 2's. 

The bastards might actually look a little simpler/less detailed than CF2, but they are better done IMO.

And at least DS's baddies know how to miss once in a while when they attack!!  lol

[NecroPhile]

Dragon Slayer's foes have better coloring and look more polished, but they also look too similar to one another and more generic than those in Cosmic Fantasy.

[Keranu]

Dragon Slayer's foes have better coloring and look more polished, but they also look too similar to one another and more generic than those in Cosmic Fantasy.

Basically my same opinion.

[blueraven]

Dragon Slayer. Because the game is simply more badass.

I'm amazed at the massive defense of CF2. Maybe the sprites in the other 4 CF's are influencing peoples opinions?

I like Dragon Slayers baddies better than Cosmic Fantasy 2's. 

The bastards might actually look a little simpler/less detailed than CF2, but they are better done IMO.

And at least DS's baddies know how to miss once in a while when they attack!!  lol

True.