Game Sack

[JoshTurboTrollX]

Lol, somebody had a Lynx growing up.

It's funny to see how much nostalgia affects someone's perspective. If you hold a NES vs 7800 poll on Atari Age, the 7800 wins hands down, but go literally anywhere else and post that same poll. I guarantee the 7800 loses every single time. For someone who isn't a fan of either, it's easy to see which console was superior, but those nostalgia glasses are awful rosy.

There's really no defense against this argument.  No matter what I say about the Lynx, you could always attribute it to nostalgia.  And there's no way to prove you wrong, just like you can't prove I'm blinded by nostalgia.  But many people who actually have played the Lynx come away from it impressed and wondering why it didn't catch on.  Many of the games are consistently well-reviewed.  And it still has a significant fanbase today, with new games being released every year.

As far as the 7800 vs NES, there's plenty of love for the NES at AtariAge.  I don't go to the 7800 portion of the forum, but I have been a member of AtariAge for many years and I've never noticed any unusual feelings toward the NES.

I can see the point on nostalgia or memories from gamings past being an opinion altering factor, but it also works both ways. I always grew up thinking "why on earth would anyone play the Atari Jag?" because I made, what I considered a mistake, and purchased one on clearance with a handful of games and basically wrote it off as a complete failure.  But now, in my wise old age, I have been randomly snatching up single Jag games every few months and shockingly enjoying it!  I picked up Ultra Vortek and Ruiner Pinball recently and actually find them pretty awesome!

As for the Lynx, I don't know exactly how someone can deny that it has a pretty good library of games. Especially when you play them side by side with Game Gear or GameBoy games.  I still enjoy playing titles like California Games (best version IMO), Dracula, Batman Returns, and even the port of Slime World which I think is better than the Genesis port. It was full of great games!

[ToyMachine78]

Lol, somebody had a Lynx growing up.

It's funny to see how much nostalgia affects someone's perspective. If you hold a NES vs 7800 poll on Atari Age, the 7800 wins hands down, but go literally anywhere else and post that same poll. I guarantee the 7800 loses every single time. For someone who isn't a fan of either, it's easy to see which console was superior, but those nostalgia glasses are awful rosy.

There's really no defense against this argument.  No matter what I say about the Lynx, you could always attribute it to nostalgia.  And there's no way to prove you wrong, just like you can't prove I'm blinded by nostalgia.  But many people who actually have played the Lynx come away from it impressed and wondering why it didn't catch on.  Many of the games are consistently well-reviewed.  And it still has a significant fanbase today, with new games being released every year.

As far as the 7800 vs NES, there's plenty of love for the NES at AtariAge.  I don't go to the 7800 portion of the forum, but I have been a member of AtariAge for many years and I've never noticed any unusual feelings toward the NES.

I can see the point on nostalgia or memories from gamings past being an opinion altering factor, but it also works both ways. I always grew up thinking "why on earth would anyone play the Atari Jag?" because I made, what I considered a mistake, and purchased one on clearance with a handful of games and basically wrote it off as a complete failure.  But now, in my wise old age, I have been randomly snatching up single Jag games every few months and shockingly enjoying it!  I picked up Ultra Vortek and Ruiner Pinball recently and actually find them pretty awesome!

As for the Lynx, I don't know exactly how someone can deny that it has a pretty good library of games. Especially when you play them side by side with Game Gear or GameBoy games.  I still enjoy playing titles like California Games (best version IMO), Dracula, Batman Returns, and even the port of Slime World which I think is better than the Genesis port. It was full of great games!

Lynx Slime World is the best version hands down. Turbo Express excluded,  I also agree that the Lynx was the best handheld for the time.

[Gypsy]

Now I gotta watch the Jag and Lynx episodes to see how funny they are. :p

[nopepper]

The problem with the Lynx is more with the hardware than it's games. Sure, it was cool upon release, but even then, it was bulky and the awful battery life, along with it's price, didn't do it any favors. I hope to one day own another one, but have it modded, as it really is powerful hardware that can do some impressive stuff for it's time, and has a lot of fun games.

I've never had the Jaguar, so can't comment much there, but I remember always thinking that I'd rather wait for real next gen hardware than get one. There was nothing exciting about it, and even today, when I have pretty much every console ever released (sans current gen), there is nothing that makes me feel like I'm missing out.

In any case, boycotting a show, just because they don't share your same opinions seems very obtuse to me. IMO Game Sack is just fun, and not meant as a definitive source for anything. It's just a couple of relatable nerds talking about games...no need to take it more serious than that.

[Pfloydguy2]

In any case, boycotting a show, just because they don't share your same opinions seems very obtuse to me. IMO Game Sack is just fun, and not meant as a definitive source for anything. It's just a couple of relatable nerds talking about games...no need to take it more serious than that.

If I boycotted every show that presented a difference of opinion, I suppose you could call me obtuse.  But this is a little different.  I stopped watching one show because of its hosts' repeatedly ignorant views.  It's not like I'm going to run out of the room the next time I see somebody watching Game Sack.  It's just that there are better sources for retro gaming YouTube channels out there.

[nopepper]

I personally wouldn't make any parallel between the Turbo and Jaguar. During the dawn of 16 bit, the decision between Genesis or Turbo was a tough one...heck, I remember the Turbo just having more (good) games to begin with, but the future of the Genesis seemed more promising (even with Turbo CD on the horizon). Hardware wise, it was close, with each system having its own strengths and weaknesses, but being somewhat comparable.

All of my serious gamer friends at the time wanted one as well, so if we had been rich, we would've gotten both. Being poor teenagers, you had to make those choices... Anyway, Sega won that battle due to already having some brand recognition and once sports games with big names started to come out( and later, with Sonic and SNES). It wasn't due to bad hardware, lack of killer apps, complete gamer apathy, etc.

Basically, even with the modest sales numbers, the Turbo wasn't a complete failure in the West. It was the victim of a much smaller user base of serious gamers having to make decisions in order to move to next gen. Younger kids stayed with Nintendo, while most older kids/adults decided to go with Sega (or hold on for SNES).

The Jaguar came out and immediately seemed like a step down from all other next gen systems, either already out or in the pipeline. Even at the cheaper price, it was obvious that it was going to fail. No killer app, no software that showed off the hardware, an unappealing, backward thinking controller, lack of 3rd party support and excitement. You name an area, and the Jaguar was underwhelming in that front.

The Jaguar might be cool if you like esoteric consoles, might have a lot of untapped potential, heck, it might have some good games and we should all add it to our collections. But it was a failure, perhaps one of the biggest in console history. The Turbo, besides having underwhelming sales numbers in the US, was not a failure in any way, shape or form.

[crazydean]

In any case, boycotting a show, just because they don't share your same opinions seems very obtuse to me. IMO Game Sack is just fun, and not meant as a definitive source for anything. It's just a couple of relatable nerds talking about games...no need to take it more serious than that.

If I boycotted every show that presented a difference of opinion, I suppose you could call me obtuse.  But this is a little different.  I stopped watching one show because of its hosts' repeatedly ignorant views.  It's not like I'm going to run out of the room the next time I see somebody watching Game Sack.  It's just that there are better sources for retro gaming YouTube channels out there.

Agreed. That Metal Jesus Rocks is much more informative than Game Sack.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

In any case, boycotting a show, just because they don't share your same opinions seems very obtuse to me. IMO Game Sack is just fun, and not meant as a definitive source for anything. It's just a couple of relatable nerds talking about games...no need to take it more serious than that.

If I boycotted every show that presented a difference of opinion, I suppose you could call me obtuse.  But this is a little different.  I stopped watching one show because of its hosts' repeatedly ignorant views.  It's not like I'm going to run out of the room the next time I see somebody watching Game Sack.  It's just that there are better sources for retro gaming YouTube channels out there.

Agreed. That Metal Jesus Rocks is much more informative than Game Sack.

you HAVE to be trolling here.  Well done.

Also, you guys did know that GameSack initially started as a mockery of other people's Youtube review shows?  It just so happens that Joe's GameSack videos got way more attention than the videos he actually worked hard on! it caught on, Joe kept doing them and here we are... lol

[Winniez]

In general I do like Gamesack, good production values and just two blokes having a fun banter about games. And they actually dare to have opinions, sometimes even against the general consensus. Could do without the game value references though.

Something like Metal Jesus feels really bland to me, everything is always so awesome and cool. Can't stand the hidden gem thing either. I have nothing against the guy but the channel is just not for me.

[nopepper]

Metal Jesus has actually gotten a lot better once he started bringing in guests that at least knew a little bit about what they are talking about. He has also gotten better in front of the camera, so I don't immediately skip his videos when they autoplay like  I used to do when I just couldn't bear his awkwardness and general ignorance towards console gaming.

It is a channel geared more towards collectors, so I don't relate to most of those peeps very much, but it has definitely gotten more likeable recently.

[TR0N]

[ClodBusted]

Every Youtube show that has episodes with more than 20 minutes of content and does not make me fall asleep within that time should be awarded with an Emmy or something.

[Gypsy]

So I watched the Jag episode and felt it was fair. Couldn't find the Lynx episode.

[TDIRunner]

They've never done a Lynx episode.  However, they have reviewed 4 different Lynx games during 4 different episodes.

[nopepper]

So I watched the Jag episode and felt it was fair. Couldn't find the Lynx episode.

Yeah, they covered Raiden, Iron Soldier, Tempest 2000 and AvP. So serious question, besides those, what are the "good" Jaguar games? Protector, Missile Command 3D? Anything that somebody would consider a system seller?

[CrackTiger]

The Jaguar has a lot of games which are generally considered good, but are available on other consoles. It has the kind of library that ignorant people insist the PC Engine needed.

There are still some neat exclusives which are enjoyable to experience, like Super Burnout, Atari Karts and Power Drive Rally, but the library is mainly for hardcore classic console gamers who appreciate unique versions of games and aesthetics like chiptunes.

[Joe Redifer]

We haven't done a Lynx episode but I really liked Blue Lightning on a real Lynx. The only way we could do an episode now, of course, is via emulation. As for the Jag yeah there are a few decent games on it and a few I'd still like to try (Rayman, Super Burnout, the other ones CrackTiger mentioned, etc) but overall nothing that makes me compelled to own one. I hear they are working on a decent flash cart for it finally so maybe that will tempt me.

PS - The Jag CD was awful. I had a friend who had it and the Blue Lighting game on that was much worse than the one on the Lynx. I couldn't believe it.

EDIT: I could just see someone complaining "The PC Engine sucks because it needs more games like the Jaguar had". That legit wouldn't surprise me. And it absolutely amuses me!

[majors]

So serious question, besides those, what are the "good" Jaguar games?

Probably not the best forum to ask that question.

MGC was started out for "Jagfest" and there is always a small outpost of rabid fans with a few systems running, I bet they would tout the Jags merits. Personally, T2K is the only reason to own one.

One of the early Jaguar emulators was called "PT"...short for Project Tempest. It seems the programmers just wanted to play Tempest

[nopepper]

It has the kind of library that ignorant people insist the PC Engine needed.

EDIT: I could just see someone complaining "The PC Engine sucks because it needs more games like the Jaguar had". That legit wouldn't surprise me. And it absolutely amuses me!

I'm not sure if these statements compute...You mean to tell me that some of these "rabid fans" actually think the Jaguar library is superior to the PCE?

Probably not the best forum to ask that question.

MGC was started out for "Jagfest" and there is always a small outpost of rabid fans with a few systems running, I bet they would tout the Jags merits. Personally, T2K is the only reason to own one.

Man, I will not join another forum just to ask this question, as I have very little interest in the Jaguar. Besides, there is at least one of these fans in these forums (Pfloydguy2), who can hopefully answer my questions.

Right now, my curiosity has been piqued as to why there are "rabid fans" for a system that has always looked like almost complete garbage to me. Am I missing something? Are these rabid fans just mostly peeps who grew up with Atari and thus migrated to the Jaguar? Is it because its very easy to develop for and has a healthy homebrew scene (which has been my impression since the early 2000s).

Also, I was never a huge fan of the original Tempest in the arcades, so the excitement for Tempest 2000 was lost on me. Super Burnout looks like a decent super scaler ripoff...that is probably the most appealing game I've seen for the Jaguar so far. <shrugs>

[seieienbu]

lol Project Tempest is the only Jaguar emulator I've ever used.  I downloaded it when I wanted to play Tempest one night while my Jaguar was somewhere else.

I always thought Battlesphere sounded cool.  The idea of a 16 (I think?) player game on the Jaguar seemed both unlikely to ever happen but something I wanted to see at some point.

The Jaguar definitely isn't my favorite console but I think it has enough unique games that it's worth a look from anyone who's never given it one.

[Joe Redifer]

Yeah I think if a proper flash cart does indeed come out I'll pick one up along with some RGB SCARTz. I don't want to actively collect for it.

[majors]

Right now, my curiosity has been piqued as to why there are "rabid fans" for a system that has always looked like almost complete garbage to me. Am I missing something?

I do not think you are missing anything. I have no love for Jag(but I did repair one last week for a buddy who run a games store, that in the past 6 months have sold 3 Jags). As for the fans' fever for it, I think it's like you said...hardcore Atari fans with the bonus of a decent homebrew scene.

To be fair, I was working Babbages for the Jag launch...it never seemed to have taken a foot hold in the market, even 3do sold better and had better game line up. I'm not a Atari hater by any means...I love my Lynx but I'm first to admit it has a limited library of games I enjoy.

Sounds like you've got the itch already, only solution is to EMU or get a console to scratch that itch.

[Pfloydguy2]

So I watched the Jag episode and felt it was fair. Couldn't find the Lynx episode.

It's been awhile since I watched most of their stuff.  I believe they mention the Lynx and Lynx games in a few episodes, but as Joe mentioned, there isn't a dedicated Lynx episode.

I went back and watched the Jaguar episode again last week, to see if maybe I was just remembering things poorly.  It seemed obvious from the beginning of the episode that both guys assumed the Jag was a joke.  Some things stuck out to me as bad information, like when Joe said Wolfenstein 3D on the Jag didn't look any better than the other versions.  The Jag version (and I think the Mac and 3D0 ones maybe?) had a significant graphical upgrade over the PC version and most others.  The difference is quite obvious when you compare them side by side.  It's just things like that that give the impression they didn't do their homework and thus didn't give the Jag a fair analysis.

Yeah, they covered Raiden, Iron Soldier, Tempest 2000 and AvP. So serious question, besides those, what are the "good" Jaguar games? Protector, Missile Command 3D? Anything that somebody would consider a system seller?

I wouldn't consider anything on the Jag a system seller today.  I thought Alien vs. Predator was phenomenal back in its time, but that's the closest the Jag has to a system seller.  AvP really hasn't aged well.  The framerate is really choppy, but it was incredibly immersive in 1994.

So ignoring that and Tempest 2000, Iron Soldier, and Raiden, I'd recommend the following:

Rayman.  It's graphically comparable to the Playstation and Saturn ports, but those versions added some features that made the game frustratingly difficult to play, like slippery surfaces.  I find the difficulty in the Jag version very well-balanced.  If anything, it's a bit on the easy side, as I usually have tons of lives saved up by the end of the game.  I want to like the Playstation version, but it's just frustratingly tough by the second area.  The later versions have a CD-quality soundtrack with largely ambient background music.  The Jag's soundtrack is midi, and it's much more melodic than the PS1/Saturn soundtrack.  I really prefer the Jag's soundtrack, but maybe I'm the only one.

Syndicate.  I don't usually get into the 3/4 overhead "god games," but I adore Syndicate.  It's not a technological marvel, but it's quite a bit more advanced than the SNES and Genesis versions.  It makes good use of the Jag's keypad.  Originally a PC game with keyboard controls, it presents a bit of a challenge in porting to a console, because the commands all need to be mapped to a controller.  I've never played the SNES/Genesis versions, but from what I've read, it sounds like some of the game's features had to be removed due to control restrictions.  The Jag version is quite fun, with a good deal of depth, although plenty of Jag fans don't care for it.

Doom.  There are a lot of better options for Doom in 2018, but the Jag version was impressive in its time.  The Jag port was programmed by John Carmack himself.  It runs faster than most of the ports of the 1990s and has a better lighting engine, and most of the early console ports were based on the Jag version's code.  Carmack wasn't able to get the soundtrack playing during the levels without compromising the Jag's performance, so the soundtrack plays between stages, which is a big drawback.  Some people say they prefer to play the game without music as it's more immersive, but without the option to turn it on or off, I can only consider it a loss.  The Jag port also has scaled-down levels, missing levels, and no Cyberdemon, Spectres, or Spider Mastermind, and also no blur artifact (invisibility) or night-vision goggles.  Still, it's a great game on the Jag, even if it's been surpassed in years since.

Wolfenstein 3D.  Jag Wolfenstein is one of the best ports and among the best games on the system, in my opinion.  It looks great compared to the PC and SNES versions.  It runs very smoothly, although the Game Sack guys thought it ran too fast if I recall correctly.  I never had any issues with it being too fast and have played through it several times.  The Jag version added two weapons, a flamethrower and a rocket launcher.  Jag Wolfenstein also has an in-game map.  I don't think the PC or SNES versions did, but I could be wrong about that.

Battle Sphere / Battle Sphere Gold.  This came out after the commercial life of the Jag, but it's a good example of the Jag's power.  It's a space combat game with a ton of depth and the ability to play against 15 other people with the system link.  Unfortunately, it's stupidly expensive ($1500-ish), as if it wasn't already impossible to find 15 other Jag owners nearby.

Super Burnout.  I haven't played this a ton, but it's a very well-done motorcycle racer, and both super fast and silky smooth.  Some fans list this as the best game on the Jag.  But if you're not into racing games, Super Burnout isn't going to change your mind.

Zool 2.  This game is solid, but not brilliant.  It's a mascot platformer that plays a little too fast for its own good, and for some awful reason jump has been mapped to both an action button and Up on the D-pad.  But I've gotten plenty of fun out of it.  The soundtrack is really catchy and the graphics are gorgeous for 1994.

Ultra Vortek.  Game Sack really ripped into Ultra Vortek, but it's a solid fighter.  It unashamedly rips off Mortal Kombat, but that doesn't make it a bad game.  Graphically it's pretty nice and it controls very well with a variety of moves and character types.  It doesn't offer anything too original, but it's still a good game.  I'm not huge into the 1 on 1 fighting game genre, so I can't comment on the depth of the gameplay.

NBA Jam TE.  The Jag version doesn't have anything you can't find in the SNES/Genesis versions other than slightly better graphics, but it's just as solid as the other home conversions.

Baldies (Jag CD).  This is an overhead "god-game" comparable to the early Warcraft games.  It's pretty addicting and unique.  You control a group of Bald dudes and have to fight against their enemies, the Hairy men.  Your army is divided into four categories of Baldies, each of which has a different purpose depending on whether they're inside a building or outside.  There's a good deal of depth, and it's got the sense of humor of something like Worms or Lemmings.  You can develop a minefield and place it right outside an enemy castle, and then develop a stink bomb and drop it on the castle, forcing its inhabitants outside and right into the minefield.  Or inflict your enemies' territory with a plague of land-sharks.  Lots of good fun.  There's also a PS1 port, but it uses some fugly early polygons in places.  The Jag version is 100% pixel art, which I prefer, but that's subjective of course.

Blue Lightning (Jag CD).  A lot of people hate the Jag version, but I really enjoy it.  It doesn't have the depth of something like the Lynx original, but it's a fun mindless blaster.  I'm probably in the minority here though, so approach with caution.

Primal Rage (Jag CD).  It's about the same as the other home ports.  Better graphics than the SNES/Genesis ports, but inferior graphics to the Playstation/Saturn ports.  Also, some fatalities have to load after you input the right command, which really interrupts the matches.

Vid Grid (Jag CD).  It's essentially a jigsaw puzzle where the picture you're assembling is a moving video rather than a still photo.  I had a lot of fun with this, and I don't know why people don't talk about it more.  It's not a system seller, and it's nothing brilliant, but it certainly is fun, and it's a unique take on the FMV genre.

[Pfloydguy2]

Right now, my curiosity has been piqued as to why there are "rabid fans" for a system that has always looked like almost complete garbage to me. Am I missing something? Are these rabid fans just mostly peeps who grew up with Atari and thus migrated to the Jaguar? Is it because its very easy to develop for and has a healthy homebrew scene (which has been my impression since the early 2000s).

I dunno about the rabid fans thing.  Every console has fanboys - does the Jag have more than most?  If it takes one to know one, maybe I'm in a good position to make that call. 

I think the issue is that the Jag has always been lambasted as a joke of a console.  It's the go-to system for a lot of people when looking for an example of a console failure.  And it IS a failed console, so that alone isn't a problem.  The problem is when you have people who have never played it who criticize it for flaws that don't exist.  There's a ton of embarrassingly-poor games on the Jag.  There are also some well-made games that are worth playing.  I don't think the Jaguar should be on the same level as the PC Engine.  The PC Engine's library is clearly superior in just about every way.  But that doesn't mean the Jag is garbage.

Also, the Jag fanbase does have a lot of people who grew up with the Jag or other Atari platforms.  But there's plenty who got into the Jag long after its demise and even just recently.  Unfortunately, the collector's market has made Jaguar collecting prohibitively expensive, so it's probably not worth looking into if you're not already interested.  From what I'm told, Jaguar emulation is spotty with 2D games and awful with 3D games, but I haven't tried it much myself.

[Bloufo]

Where would Atari Karts rate?

[Pfloydguy2]

A lot of people hate Atari Karts.  I only picked it up last year and haven't played more than an hour of it.  I actually liked it quite a bit.  It's very pretty and controls very well, but it doesn't have the depth or comedy of Mario Kart.  And I think it's only 2-player max, but I could be wrong about that.

[Winniez]

A lot of people hate Atari Karts.  I only picked it up last year and haven't played more than an hour of it.  I actually liked it quite a bit.  It's very pretty and controls very well, but it doesn't have the depth or comedy of Mario Kart.  And I think it's only 2-player max, but I could be wrong about that.

What are your thoughts on the Jaguar controller btw? I really don't like it, to me there is an element of cheapness and bad design in it. D-pad feels mushy, the buttons are so so and its bit awkward to hold. But I don't mind the numpad, in fact I quite like it. Its unique for its time and adds character. Quite useful too.

To Jags credit I must say that after trying the Wolf 3D port after a long time it really is quite excellent. In fact one of the best ways to play the game, even today. Its not like with Doom where the Jag port was great for its time but you have so many better versions to play today,

[TR0N]

[ClodBusted]

Awwwww, that video preview thumbnail is just adorable.

[nopepper]

I wouldn't consider anything on the Jag a system seller today.  I thought Alien vs. Predator was phenomenal back in its time, but that's the closest the Jag has to a system seller.  AvP really hasn't aged well.  The framerate is really choppy, but it was incredibly immersive in 1994.

So ignoring that and Tempest 2000, Iron Soldier, and Raiden, I'd recommend the following:
...

Sorry for the super late response, but missed your reply until now. 

Frankly, there is hardly anything there to warrant excitement towards the Jaguar; the majority can be played in other systems and the few exclusives do not appear to be groundbreaking or essential (as you concede in your post).

Going back to Game Sack, I think their take on the Jaguar seemed pretty fair. They only missed a couple of your recommended games, so I'm not sure why you have such strong negative feelings towards them, but to each their own. I find their show entertaining, well paced and with high production values. I also really enjoy the music chosen for each section. I don't always agree with their opinion on games/systems, and they do make mistakes from time to time, but I don't expect everyone to share my opinion on everything or to be perfect (especially for a 2 man operation...), so it's all good for me.

I do appreciate you taking the time to make that list, as there were a couple of games there I had never heard of.

[TR0N]

[Pfloydguy2]

What are your thoughts on the Jaguar controller btw? I really don't like it, to me there is an element of cheapness and bad design in it. D-pad feels mushy, the buttons are so so and its bit awkward to hold. But I don't mind the numpad, in fact I quite like it. Its unique for its time and adds character. Quite useful too.

To Jags credit I must say that after trying the Wolf 3D port after a long time it really is quite excellent. In fact one of the best ways to play the game, even today. Its not like with Doom where the Jag port was great for its time but you have so many better versions to play today,

I like the controller overall.  It does feel a bit cheap, but part of that is how light-weight it is.  I like how it fits perfectly in my hands.  I have big hands, so some controllers like the NES's and PCE's are a little uncomfortable.  And I like the idea of the keypad, because it gives you a lot of control potential for PC ports like Syndicate, Baldies, and Theme Park, without an overly cumbersome control scheme.  It also allows you to go right to the weapon you want in games like Doom, where most console ports make you cycle through all the weapons to get to the one you want.  The keypad is in a good spot where you can access it on the fly without having to look down at your controller, and it doesn't get in the way of the fire buttons and D-pad.

On that note, I don't care much for the D-Pad.  Like the Genesis D-Pad, it's effective, but it doesn't feel as satisfying as something like the SNES or Dualshock.  The Pro Controller is a step up with shoulder buttons and three extra fire buttons, but it's stupidly expensive, so a lot of people have never tried it.  There is a project at AtariAge to make more Pro Controllers but obviously without the Atari logo.

[Pfloydguy2]

Going back to Game Sack, I think their take on the Jaguar seemed pretty fair. They only missed a couple of your recommended games, so I'm not sure why you have such strong negative feelings towards them, but to each their own. I find their show entertaining, well paced and with high production values. I also really enjoy the music chosen for each section. I don't always agree with their opinion on games/systems, and they do make mistakes from time to time, but I don't expect everyone to share my opinion on everything or to be perfect (especially for a 2 man operation...), so it's all good for me.

Game Sack is entertaining.  I have nothing wrong with somebody evaluating something and coming to a different conclusion than me.  My biggest issue with Game Sack's take on the Jag is that right from the start, they treated it like it was a joke.  It didn't seem like they were giving it a fair chance at all, based on their snickering, the goofy faces they make when they mention the Jaguar, and their sarcastic comments about the quality of the system.  It's clear their minds were made up before they even played the games.  It's a bit like the difference between constructive criticism and playground bullying - the problem isn't the criticism, but the way it's delivered.  I've watched probably 20-30 Game Sack episodes, and they don't usually treat their subject material that way unless they're making tongue-in-cheek stabs at each other about Sega vs. Nintendo.  Dave even acknowledges at the end that he knows he probably pissed off any Atari fans watching the video.

[nopepper]

On that note, I don't care much for the D-Pad.  Like the Genesis D-Pad, it's effective, but it doesn't feel as satisfying as something like the SNES or Dualshock.

Hey now, please tell me you are not talking about the 6 button Genesis dpad, because there is no way the Jaguar (or any other) controller can approximate the perfection that controller's pad achieved, especially compared to the the SNES's or Dual Shock's dpad. I guess that can be subjective, but man, that dpad just feels soooo good in comparison to everything else pretty much, ever (yeah, even the Saturn). The only one that comes close, oddly enough, is the Gameboy Micro.

Game Sack is entertaining.  I have nothing wrong with somebody evaluating something and coming to a different conclusion than me.  My biggest issue with Game Sack's take on the Jag is that right from the start, they treated it like it was a joke.  It didn't seem like they were giving it a fair chance at all, based on their snickering, the goofy faces they make when they mention the Jaguar, and their sarcastic comments about the quality of the system.  It's clear their minds were made up before they even played the games.  It's a bit like the difference between constructive criticism and playground bullying - the problem isn't the criticism, but the way it's delivered.  I've watched probably 20-30 Game Sack episodes, and they don't usually treat their subject material that way unless they're making tongue-in-cheek stabs at each other about Sega vs. Nintendo.  Dave even acknowledges at the end that he knows he probably pissed off any Atari fans watching the video.

Game Sack has taken the same snarky approach towards other beleaguered consoles/handhelds and have come away impressed after actually playing them (such as the Game Gear). So it might just be that the Jaguar is simply not that good in their eyes...and that they are aware that the Jaguar's fan base is emotionally attached in such a way to get defensive about their stance on it (something I was not until now).

[Pfloydguy2]

I was referring to the stock 3-button Genesis pad.  I've always thought that thing felt cumbersome.  The one I use is a 6-button, because it feels far better than the original.

[esteban]

I was referring to the stock 3-button Genesis pad.  I've always thought that thing felt cumbersome.  The one I use is a 6-button, because it feels far better than the original.

I don't like the d-pads on 3- or -6 button Genesis controllers.

They are sloppy and mushy and just don't have "precision" I need.

Then again, I am *not* a fan of the versus-fighting genre... so maybe the six-button pad worked really well with SFII its brethren?

At least the Genesis controllers were better than the SMS pads... I'll grant you that.

Ha!



It really is a subjective topic, though, obviously. I've talked to so many folks who *like* the various first-party Genesis controllers... despite their sloppy, crappy mush.

Oh well.

(That last comment was a gratuitous troll.)

[Strider77]

The Genesis 3 and 6 button pads are fine. It's 8 way and digital...    you press it one way and it goes. You don't have to press extra hard for the diagnols etc. They aren't lacking any precision. Fighting games are where precision arguably factors in the most. Double rolls motions etc require alot more precision than pointing in a single direction to move a sprite.

Especially the 6 button pad...    it's basically a Saturn pad (the best pad the world has seen). The digital pad has the same design on both the 6 button Genesis and Saturn pads in the way it functions.

Having said that, I didn't have issues with pads till the 3DO or PS1 pad showed up. Ive had some PCE pads where the diagnosis were a little stiff but that seemed to go away after they were broken in more.

[ClodBusted]

I'm not keen on the Genesis 3-button controller either. The build quality, even speaking for the official Sega Mega Drive and Genesis 3-button controllers packed in with the systems, was all over the place. Some were acceptable, some were worse.
I can tolerate the 6-button, however.

Another problem on mushy d-pads, they make going straight left and right without accidentally pressing diagonally a chore. This is especially a problem for games where you need a precise discrete input in all eight directions, e.g. both traditional (Contra) as well as overhead run & guns (Shock Troopers), any game that uses "up" for jumping (lots of 2D fighters), hell even traditional Castlevania's method of using secondary weapons relies on a reliable 8-way pad.

[majors]

Let see that Dave and Joe have to say on controllers!

[nopepper]

I still prefer the 6 button genesis controller over the Saturn, because it feels less plasticy when you press the buttons. I dont find the pad mushy at all, and think it is extremely precise for any type of game.

In regards to the Game Sack controller episode, I learned that Joe has girl hands that Seinfeld would approve.

[Strider77]

The "mushy" claims are silly. If you can't manage to go in a straight line with ANY of these pads it's you, not the pads.

All d-pads are "mushy" lol...   except for the Neo Geo pad.

[esteban]

The "mushy" claims are silly. If you can't manage to go in a straight line with ANY of these pads it's you, not the pads.

All d-pads are "mushy" lol...   except for the Neo Geo pad.

First party Sega 3-button controllers... seriously, you like them? I know lots of folks don't mind them, but they have a lot to be desired.

I didn't like them at launch, I don't like them now (but, obviously, I've learned to live with them...doesn't mean I actually like them).

But, it's very subjective... so, we can still hug and be friends.

[TR0N]

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[NightWolve]

This ought to be good, thanks Game Sack!

Nevah forget the legendary Last Alert special by Gameological Society! No better video to complement this new episode!

[DragonmasterDan]

This ought to be good, thanks Game Sack!

Nevah forget the legendary Last Alert special by Gameological Society! No better video to complement this new episode!

it's no Castle shikigami 2

[NightWolve]

This ought to be good, thanks Game Sack!

Nevah forget the legendary Last Alert special by Gameological Society! No better video to complement this new episode!

it's no Castle shikigami 2

Haha, what happened there ? OMG, they had a literal Babelfish translator with no editing skills... And voice actors had little choice but to force themselves to read off cards with that crap on them!

I know how frustrating that is too, to be looking at literal translations and not have enough editing skills to make sense of them into naturalized English... I wasted way too many hours on Xak III in editing after I got the results back from Paul England, burned myself out a bit in addition to the Ys projects, but at least for Ys scripts the NeoGeo/XSEED Cockflasher had much better editing skills compared to all other translators I had worked with (Shimarisu, Paul, Akimaru, etc.) so there was little to fix beyond spelling, occasional grammar, understandable context failures, consistency in naming conventions, etc.

Anyway, never heard of this game, but wow, that IS terrible! The voice actors sound competent with experience, but they're forced to read the Babelfish translations that were put in front of them in a OK-if-that's-really-what-you-want-me-to-say fashion, heh heh.

[DragonmasterDan]

This ought to be good, thanks Game Sack!

Nevah forget the legendary Last Alert special by Gameological Society! No better video to complement this new episode!

it's no Castle shikigami 2

Haha, what happened there ? OMG, they had a literal Babelfish translator with no editing skills... And voice actors had little choice but to force themselves to read off cards with that crap on them!

This is the only explanation