Religion

[ParanoiaDragon]

I see Noah and the flood story were mentioned a few pages back... One of the things most memorable to me about Noah is that the Bible says he lived to be 950 years old.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on it paranoia d?

scripture link

At this time, I'm inclined to believe that the ages of ancient people is real, which is one of the reasons why I'm inclined to think that we may be in a sense, devolving, for lack of a better word.  However, it's always possible that there's something that's not currently understood in the Bible timeline.

Actually, seeing Stone Henge in there reminds me of something.  I just went to Stone Henge in January, & something I found to be odd, was that the information on the tours given there, seems to conflict with information given on the pedia's.  The main thing I recall from the tour, was that people seemed to disapear from the area all of a sudden somewhere about 4500 years ago, & the place was then rediscovered about 1000 years after that.  That's right around the time of the alleged flood.  Both my wife & I believe that it may predate the flood, & maybe was built by the nephilim.  There's no evidence to support it, it's just a theory of ours.   It ma seem ridiculous, but, those stones are sunken well into the ground, & there's no seismic activity in the area.  Hard to know though how much or little of the ground was surrounding the stones way back then.  The stones themseleves may have been much bigger then how they are now, given erosion.

 But, either way, I've been given conflicting non-biblical information, so that makes me wary of who to believe in regards to archeological history.  And even then, how trustworthy are the various methods of dating things?  Sure, it's nice when something seems to match up with Biblical history, but, either way, I'm sure every & all methods of dating are still fallible.  The carbon dating method is one I think of.  What if there was something cataclysmic that we don't know about that totally changed the amount of carbon in the atmosphere?  Wouldn't that give a false reading?  If there was some sort of waterband surrounding the earth, (making it so that there was light, but the sun & stars weren't clearly visable I would assume) it fell creating not only tremendous rain, but also froze the poles(an ice age, freezing mammoths with food still in their mouths, that still boggle's me) & changed the earth from maybe from tropical to the various zones we have today.  It would seem like something like that would have a big effect of the carbon, among other things, however, I'm no scientist, nor the inventor of that dating process, so, my knowledge is limited in that regard.  But it's all still something I think about.  

Without a time machine, there's really no way for anyone on any side to prove anything about time, other then maybe more recent history, even then, there can be error's.  Not to mention, all societies have changed their own recorded history. IIRC, Egypt has been specifically known to change their own records of atleast defeats in history.  So, what if those who came up with these timelines, as well as the processes to figure out the timelines are wrong.  It's not like we don't find out from time to time that they were wrong about something, just as anybody else, can be wrong.  Maybe in 100 years, recorded history with all it's dates that we have, could be completely off, there's just no way to know, which is frusterating to me.  I want the truth, & that's all.  

I feel like, or atleast I hope, someday, even if it's past my time, we'll all have the historical truth, no matter what it is, even if it doesn't line up at all with Biblical history.  But I say hope, only because, we're still dealing with humans, who make mistakes, that's just life, we all do it.  And if time travel were possible, that could really screw up time, so, I hope it's not possible, but that seems like the only way to find out things for sure.  I've often wondered if our current view of what dinosaurs looked like with skin & all is totally different from how they were for real.  What if none of them were actually carnivore's, what if there was a different reason for some having the sharper teeth(I'm not saying there weren't carnivore's, but it's something that's crossed my mind)?

So I guess, human error really bothers me & makes me wary of what to believe.  The Bible, at this time, still makes sense to me, if only for the changes in my own personal life that I've seen.  I won't get into all my personal life issue's, but, I have plenty.  But I've made biblical changes that have improved my personality among many other things.  So, I guess at that point, it boils down to faith in something that's helped me personally be a better person.  I'm tempted to say more, but I just don't want to get into a bunch of my personal life crap.  

Plus, with stuff like the earth being called a sphere in a time(assuming the dating of the scriptures is correct) when people did not believe it was, or like Nod said, back in those days, people believed sickness came from demon possession or whatever, but the Israelites were to be extremely clean, taking a dump outside of the camp, covering it with dust, not eating certain animals during a time when they were nomads & probably didn't have a decent way of getting rid of certain bacteria that would make them sick(atleast, that's what I get out of it).  These things don't seem like normal human knowledge for back in those days(once again, assuming the Bible was written when it says it was written).  And then there's prophecies that to me, seem to add up with known history.  But, I'm sure by most people, it'd be considered ridiculous, but it all seems clear as day to me.  However, I could be wrong about prophecies.  Even ones that were to have happened already.

For instance, to paraphrase, I believe the "beast that was, but wasn't, but now is", was the Leagues of Nations, which disbanded IIRC when WW2 started, but then came back as the United Nations, & that that beast is going to turn on the harlot, which I believe is false religion that's been having relations with the nations, getting involved in polotics, taking advantage of people, etc.  And then whichever people is correct, will still be around, as it says that the beast will turn to God's people, but it will be like touching his eyeball, as in, he'd react immediately at that point, bringing on the great tribulation.  Ofcoarse, all of that probably falls into the "magic" category, but, it's what I believe at this time. So, at this time, I don't consider it unreasonable to believe that there is an intelligence of some kind well beyond humans.

[rag-time4]

I see Noah and the flood story were mentioned a few pages back... One of the things most memorable to me about Noah is that the Bible says he lived to be 950 years old.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on it paranoia d?

scripture link

At this time, I'm inclined to believe that the ages of ancient people is real, which is one of the reasons why I'm inclined to think that we may be in a sense, devolving, for lack of a better word.  However, it's always possible that there's something that's not currently understood in the Bible timeline.

Paranoia d, i agree; I also believe that the 900+ year lifespan of Noah, Methuselah, and Adam are true in the Bible. However, I think that it is society that has devolved. I think that it comes down to Noah et al eating way less food and much better quality food in terms of nutrition and purity. Today I think people tend to eat way too often and eat for pleasure rather than strictly for nutrition. Also, they all likely had very healthy spiritual and emotional lives as well.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree, but I do think it might be possible they were genetically superior to us as well. Since corrution was inherited from Adam & Eve, I think it may be a gradual process that passes it on little by little over the generations.  Not that I have any proof, it's just something I ponder about. Ofcoarse, they don't have things like polution & chemicals in their food like we have today.  Let's face it, 99.9% of the food we have available to day has something wrong with it.  They may have eaten less, I suppose that's a possibility.  By Roman times, the Romans themselves supposedly would eat for pleasure, making themselves throw up just to eat more food.

[Ceti Alpha]

Here are the passages for those interested in clarification:

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

    29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

I think it's mostly because once a woman is 'violated', she is worth less in monetary terms (in those days in that area), so she is forced to marry her rapist and her father is compensated.

Rapists get off lightly compared to adulterers though:

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her,

    24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death— the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

    25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.

That's some twisted logic right there.

Well then, it's a good thing we have the Bible to make sure we behave morally.

[_Paul]

Yes, people who go on about how it's a moral guide really need to read the book first.

[BlueBMW]

Well then, it's a good thing we have the Bible to make sure we behave morally.

Good to see you are still around Ceti!  Hadnt seen you in a while!

[RegalSin]

I did not read through the whole form but I believe religion is a scapegoat for ways of
life that reinforces our virtues ( I think that sounds right ). One half of Religion is spiritual, and was past down to generation and generation to learn from our mistakes, and while their is lies and truths mixed, they were created for us to live highly. Most laws are surrounded by Religious beliefs.

When the pilgrooms visited India they felt the people were immoral, because of the Yanksee statues carved on the many Buddist, and Hindu temples ( if that is correct ).
The Yakshees were all examples of fertility, and it was something that could be shared.

The other-side of Religion is control, and only control. A means to weaken peoples mind, so they can be submissive to society demands. So basically it is a protection
for the wrong doers as well. In "Rome" AKA the European Empire, it was mismanaged, and after eruptions of volcano's that led to the black plague/dark ages, they converted to Christianity. However that was also corrupted. They had this big empire, and not enough people, who was able to be loyal enough to the empire. The same could be said for modern day China, and WWII Germania. Even USA, and
the Common Wealth are examples of nations that are too spread out for control.
So with religion they weaken the hearts of the citizens giving them relief from the pain or worry of battle.

[thesteve]

wow, i never thought i'd say it, but well said regal

[OldRover]

Holy necropost Batman

And... yeah, it's strange, but RegalSin is right... for the most part.

[Ceti Alpha]

Holy necropost Batman

That's how I roll!

[ParanoiaDragon]

Here are the passages for those interested in clarification:

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

    29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

I think it's mostly because once a woman is 'violated', she is worth less in monetary terms (in those days in that area), so she is forced to marry her rapist and her father is compensated.

Rapists get off lightly compared to adulterers though:

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her,

    24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death— the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

    25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.

That's some twisted logic right there.

Well then, it's a good thing we have the Bible to make sure we behave morally.

I think I said this before, but either way, I have no idea why that translator rendered the original hebrew as "rape".  More litteral translations(which, can be very dry & even harder to read thru) render the original hebrew as "to lay down with/lies down with/lying down" which is just a blanket statement for sex, not rape.  Not to mention that it says, if "they" are found out, not "he".  So that would make it a consenual act, though I believe more blame is held on the man, rather then the woman.

Even then, all that was under Mosaic law, before the New Covenant was to be fulfilled, which doesn't apply to anyone today.  Israel(which included Jewish proselytes/people of other nations who joined Israel) was supposed to be a holy nation, & failed as a whole to live up to that.  They were supposed to be seperate from the other nations, & were instructed as a nation to not be like them. Then when the Messiah came, the new law (which they knew was coming) came into effect, & Israel had already been destroyed, with Jews(& later Christians) spred out among the nations by that time.  With them all spread out, the new law, was deffinitely more leniant.  While in the desert as Israel, they didn't really have any excuse to do be like the other nations in their practices.  Now that they were spred out, their was more influence to do what was considered immoral, & to "fall into sin" as it were.  So, atleast scriptually, God took that into account, which is where the Greek scriptures comes into play, & why people tend to call God in the Hebrew scriptures as being angry & wrathful in comparison.  There was deffinitely more emphasis on forgiveness in the Greek, but, atleast to me, it just goes along with the differences of circumstances of the Israelites & the Christians.


As for what Regal Sin said, I actually kind of agree as well.  Probably atleast some religions were made specifically to bend people to their will.  But all the more so, religions have twisted scripture to scare people into attending their churches.  The Catholic church is the most notorious, since they specifically adopted various pagan customs (such as hellfire, an immortal soul, a God that is three people in one) not only to win pagans over, but to scare their patrons into confession, etc. or they'll burn in hell for eternity, blah blah blah.  But, that's not in the scriptures, it was later added/twisted in the 4th century, starting with the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE(& Emperor Constantine eventually made Cathaholicism the state religion).  They actually rendered the words Sheol(Hebrew) & Hades(Greek) as hell or hellfire.  But when directly translated, they both litterally mean the common grave of mankind.  No fire & brimstone, no red men with pitchforks, none of that jive!  That's atleast one of the reasons "ye old church" specifically would torment & kill anyone that would attempt to translate the Bible into the common language in later centuries, since no one spoke latin anymore.  But ofcoarse, people, (despite torture, dismemberment, etc.) continued to work on translating it for everyone to read, for better, or for worse.

Ofcoarse, now church's are shrinking, & to try to keep people coming(so the priests can line their pockets), most church's are not speaking of hell, or judgment, etc.  Rather, they are just tickling peoples ears, telling them whatever they want to hear.  I've said this before, but, I honestly believe the time is coming soon, when the UN will just straight up put the smack down on religion.  Too many wicked things have been done in the name of God, & I think it's gonna come crumbling down, even if people don't expect it.  I think it'll be in my lifetime, but, maybe I'm wrong.

[Joe Redifer]

How would the UN put the smack down on religion?  I'm not a fan of religion in any way, but I don't think we should take away people's right to believe in whatever stuff they want to believe in.

[_Paul]

I think I said this before, but either way, I have no idea why that translator rendered the original hebrew as "rape".  More litteral translations(which, can be very dry & even harder to read thru) render the original hebrew as "to lay down with/lies down with/lying down" which is just a blanket statement for sex, not rape.  Not to mention that it says, if "they" are found out, not "he".  So that would make it a consenual act, though I believe more blame is held on the man, rather then the woman.

Fair enough, let's look at some other translations of Deuteronomy 22:

ASV 
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

NIV
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

YLT
28 `When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found,
29 then hath the man who is lying with her given to the father of the damsel fifty silverlings, and to him she is for a wife; because that he hath humbled her, he is not able to send her away all his days.

Even putting aside the 'rape/lay hold on her' translation issues, it still claims that - (and remember if the Bible is what believers claim it is then these are the rules set down by the creator of the universe) If a man has sex with an unmarried virgin, he has to pay her father money, marry her and never divorce.  From today's perspective, that's plainly a ridiculous law yet it is in the Bible, which is God's word and he is a perfect being who is never wrong. That is the best he could come up with?

Even then, all that was under Mosaic law, before the New Covenant was to be fulfilled, which doesn't apply to anyone today. 

The Old Testament is still valid to Jews. Jesus himself said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them". This is a good example of the clever/muddled* (delete as applicable) way the Bible is written. For every phrase you can find inferring the Old Testament is not valid, I can find one that claims it is. The whole book is so full of these kind of contradictions that you can basically make it mean anything if you ignore the right parts. Cherry picking what you want to believe from the Bible is essential for any person of a religious persuasion.

[ParanoiaDragon]

If God says that sex outside the marital arrangement is not according to his purpose, then I don't see why there would be an issue with there being a penalty against a man who fornication with my daughter.  I mean, I deffinitely believe sex as being something that's deeply intimate between 2 people who have dedicated their lives to eachother.  I'm not saying anyone has to agree with me, but it just makes sense to me.  I wish I could say I was a "virgin" so to speak when I married my wife.  But I wasn't, & it's annoying to think I did it with someone else prior to her, especially now that I've been married for awhile.  It feels....wierd, for lack of a better word, that I was ever in that situation with some other chick.

When it comes to a purchase price, I also see no problem with that for the time period & just the general attitude people tended to have.  Once a woman lost her virginity, men usually weren't interested in them.  That's not God telling them not to be interested, that's men back then & the attitude they tended to have.  That's not to say that no one ever married someone who was no longer a virgin, like when Bo'az married Ruth who had lost her husband.  There's alot of things it seems like God allowed to happen, taking into account how people tended to be.  Like allowing men to marry multiple wives.  It was supposed to be just one man & one woman based on his purpose, but atleast for some time after the "original sin" etc. etc., he put up with men having multiple wives.  But by the time of the Christian congregation, it was made clear that a man should be the husband of one wife.  Might've even been(assuming it happened) for after the flood, to help fill up the population again, by having multiple wives to produce a plethora of kids?

Oh, & on divorce, yeah, that wouldn't fly today.  No doubt.  People divorce over very minute things these days.  In the scriptures, divorce was only allowed if the mate had commited adultry.  I have no problem with that.  I even have friends who wanted to divorce their mates because they were abusive etc., but they seperated from them, & later the abusive mate changed into a completely different person, & treated them with the utmost respect.  Now they're glad they never got divorced.  But, people are going to do, what they're going to do.

Yeah, techincally they're supposed to observe the Mosaic law, but they can't.  They have neither a temple, nor an ark of the covenant.  IIRC, I think they can't even rebuild the temple, since I think that's where the Dome of the Rock is, which is Muslim territory.  They could try to build a temple somewhere else I supposed & not be held up on one location, & make sacrifices, etc., but, they haven't thus far that I know of.

Yeah, Jesus did fulfill the law.  I usually look at it like 2 different laws, but a bunch of the laws did carry over.  They knew there was going to be a new law ahead time along with the Messiah.  I don't recall specifically, but it might've been around Jeremiah's time when the prophecy of a new law was supposed to have been written, though, I could be wayyyy off base on that.  Also, I find that the Old & New Testaments are valid, they're there for a reason.  I don't know what it'd be like, to only have the New Testament, seems like nothing would make sense.  Like Jesus sacrifice for "our sins" being forshadowed by the sacrifices in the temple, as well as the sacrifice that Abraham didn't have to do on his own son.  To me atleast, it just helps put it all together.  And certainly the Israelites & Christians in the Bible needed the scriptures prior to their respective times.  Plus, without Genesis & Job, we wouldn't really know why there's suffering, why God allows this or that, why "the Devil" exists & what his goal is, etc.  But, I have had some people at the door who only believe in the New Testament, & feel the Old Testament means nothing.  That to me, is cherry picking what a person believes or wants to believe.

Ofcoarse, I don't claim to understand it all, by no means.  Forever a student I shall be.  I've only read thru the Bible back to back once so far.  Sure, I've read millions of scriptures at various times, but only once totally in order of how it's presented.  I'm a horrible reader, so it takes me forever to get thru any kind of book.  So, my learning, in regards to anything in life, is slow to say the least

[OldRover]

All of this nonsense is why reasonable people either don't follow that book at all, or pick and choose the comfortable things and ignore the blatant hatred within it.

[RegalSin]

I do not know if you all are getting religion, anyways everybody has their fact opinion............whatever.

Just forget about it, all. All followings are made to benefit peoples lives. Mostly people who are of that nation. In India they have over billions, trillions, gazillion dollars worth of gold, rare metals, historical artifacts, and art inside a temple chamber. India right now if they, took all of that stuff, that was donated to Buddhism would never be poor. Guess what? Buddhism was founded on that idea itself, after the prince AKA Buddha, saw how his nation was poor, and in a self destructive manor. If Buddha had not made that move to start his following, then India would probably be another African mine nation, or even South Africa ( Criminal rape capital of the world ).

It is like us with fiction, we need to make our fiction number one and dedicate our lives preventing Hollywood robbing us blind. Making babies is a nice thing but the cost to our way of life is staggering. I know nobody will care, in a million billion, gazillion years. But, It is the "Last Armageddon", dammit and we have to battle in the name of fiction, and the name of our world. Yeah we are the bad guys, just like the nightmares of the windfish, our world is danger. That is a reality.

..........

In western ( European Religion ), Judism, Christanity, and Islam all follow the same god. When you get married, sleep with a woman, or even have make a child with somebody, that person belongs to you, ( meaning they are apart of your world, like
the film "The Cell" ). These religions are directed towards men, but women can follow these rules as well.

These three Religion was made for three kinds of people. People who lived in a desert land, with little water, and food. People who were once slaves. People who
had no other belief. In Judism they talk about people marrying out of their race. The truth is that Jewish people are racist and want to make their own blood grow. This is why they have certain medical problems because they are inbreeding sometimes. The Christian is a fools religion, it guards a fool. ( the Knight, the Wizard, the trickster ( I learned that from "Eternal Darkness" ), Christians are used to defend the people of Judism. In Jewish religion they have ideas, that Jews do not fight wars.
Islam believes that all land that was owned/conguerd by Muslims, is religion grounds.

The biggest problem with western religion is

The Age of exploration - All of those negative jokes, caused many problems.

The post WWII era - People rejected the west and started to love the east.

The internet - People started to research on things that they would ignore.

.............

Here is another problem, Psychology is another region.  However people call it a practice of learning. Psychology is for people, while they have had training with god, they look for money, for being among smart people, and for power and control. 

The internet is another religion. Think of it like sitting in front of a Shinto Shrine all day long. clapping your hands to the sounds of keys, pledging or praying for something. That is what my terminal looks like. All I need to do is get down and start praying. People let the information world absorb their lives. Considering everything else optional. It has become so strong, it intertwines all aspects of our lives.

law - is a religion based on religion, and is religion for the land, designating the land follows it's following. Like in India, a men
can touch, fondle, young women, young girls ( to my understanding )
but they can not kiss them, or have intercourse of any sort. That is why Priya Rai ( Indian model who wants be famous ), makes video of a fan who is blind-folded, and tied down, but never allowed him to actually have any sex with her. This is an example of law and religion mixing.

In the western religious text, they say, you are not a grown person until you have reached the age of thirty. That sounds insane, but that is hidden among the text, their. That is part of the reason why nation standard of adult age is around 16-18-20-26. It is obvious the law makers feel this is lubricious, that is why the law is bent, against the religion.

[esteban]

Thank god I'm an atheist.

One of my favorite directors, Luis Bunuel, supposedly said that. Ha! Check out all his Mexican-era films for a treat. I wrote about some of them in threads of yore. You'll find Bunuel's French films more easily (and they're great), but the Mexican stuff kicks ass.

And that's all I have to say about religion, really...

[RegalSin]

Their is no such thing as an atheist.

One time I was playing around, and my friend choked me. All I saw was a white field, similar to something from Starfox. Imagine that stage in StarFox where you fought the monorail robot ( Difficulty medium/easy, Path to the Venom city ). However the path was centered, and I forget how the distant look but maybe the path was above and below me at the same time. The distance was another entrance, also reflecting on the top and bottom. It was pure white, like a blank sheet of paper but something was in the distance. Imagine Mega Drive Cotton, or starfox. I could not feel anything, I did not know what feeling was or is, what sight, sound, or what alive was.

However I remember this feild very clearly. It was beyond me, I was an emotion that was not fear, but the emotion probably has no name.

When I came back, it was like gasping for air after being in water. All my functions returned instantaneously. My freind said I knocked him in the head real hard. ( using the back of my head ).

One day I am going to get christian, ( since people say it does not count when your a baby ). You know my Chinese name, the teacher said I need alot of earth. Don't we all need Earth.

If Atheism, was a real belief. They would halt all projects and begin spice production. Health would the number one issue, and people would spend their lives standing like trees and living in tents, and their would be no violence at all.

If somebody is a real Atheist they will abandon all hope for, any joy asides being alive, to be alive. Dedicate their lives to making people live longer and being youthful.