Thoughts on resurfacing Turbo CD games

[Bardoly]

I've been into TG-16 games since '91/'92 but only the HuCard games.  I'm planning on getting into the Turbo CD games very soon, and I just had a thought.
I know that these CD games are not getting any younger, and I'm a little concerned about the wear and tear over the years on the read side of the CD's.  A couple of my local retro game stores also sell used movies, and they will allow you to bring CD's and/or DVD's into the store and get the disks 'resurfaced' for a nominal charge.  Does anyone here have any experience with this or opinions about this?  Like, should I just play the games, and then if glitches occur, then look at possibly resurfacing?  Or maybe I should copy the CD and then play the copy?  Any opinions/advice would be very welcome.  I'm just planning on trying to get Rondo X, and I just want to protect my $70-100 investment.

Thanks in advance for any help with this.

[NecroPhile]

I only buy games in good shape and treat them properly, and as such have never needed such a service.  Much like any other CD, though, resurfacing works fine if the disc is not too badly damaged and it's done properly.

[VestCunt]

should I just play the games, and then if glitches occur, then look at possibly resurfacing?  

Yep. Scratched CDs aren't much of an issue on the Turbo.
1) TGCD's didn't use stupid proprietary cases that were thrown away like the 3DO and Sega CD.
2) The CD-ROM was expensive enough that little kids didn't got their hands on it.
3) Turbo games were unpopular enough that they were never circulated by the Funcoland shredder and mainstream secondary markets.

I don't worry too much about condition when I buy used games and out of approximately 150 TG/PCE CDs purchased over the last fifteen years, I've only encountered problems with scratches on one (1) game. If you do get a scratched game, get it professionally resurfaced.

I know that these CD games are not getting any younger,

People keep saying this and it's nonsense: adult-owned CD's will last 'till you're dead. Don't fumble them. Keep them in cases and at room temperature. Don't store them in the living room if you live with alcoholics. The only thing that could wrong is if they get covered in dust and then exposed to so much moisture that mold grows on them.

I'm just planning on trying to get Rondo X, and I just want to protect my $70-100 investment.

Video games aren't an investment.

Or maybe I should copy the CD and then play the copy?

There's a lot of controversy on this and we've had countless discussions. I'm in the "CD-R's-will-ruin-your-lens" camp. Do some searches and do what you think is best.

[SignOfZeta]

Resurfacing only helps CDs that have been horrendously abused on the read side but somehow miraculously not on the label side. You only need resurfacing if you are a total slob or you bought your games from one.

The idea of playing CD-Rs instead is ludicrous. CDs don't wear out. Just don't destroy the poor things by leaving them laying around out of their cases, setting it down on the read side, allowing dirtbags to handle your stuff, etc.

[FiftyQuid]

Just buy them in good condition and they'll last forever.  CD-ROMs are not like VHS tape.  They won't wear out as you play them.  Hell, even records (albums, LPs) don't wear out if they are treated with respect.

[SignOfZeta]

LPs definitely wear out. Even with a quality low tracking force cartridge there is still a difference between the first time you played a record and the 100th.

CDs however do not depreciate in quality one iota no matter how many times you play them.

[Colossus1574]

Just buy them in good condition and they'll last forever.  CD-ROMs are not like VHS tape.  They won't wear out as you play them.  Hell, even records (albums, LPs) don't wear out if they are treated with respect.

Well put 50Quid, why do you think people have come into an age where collecting movies is fun and do-able? it's because digital media like LDs, CDs, and DVDs, BluRays....they can be played a gazillion times and still see no wear on it. My movie collection, i'm taking it with me to the grave, and they'll all still be in great working order!     Same can't be said for the StarWars collector's trilogy on VHS....i haven't played it in 10 years and it's wearing down on its own! hahaha

So yes, just be aware of the condition of the 2nd hand stuff u buy, but otherwise...unessecary to burn "to play" copies...

[CrackTiger]

I'm just planning on trying to get Rondo X, and I just want to protect my $70-100 investment.

Current games often sell for as much new and can be found in bargain bins within weeks. If you're placing value on something other than the actual game, to the extent that you're considering such drastic steps, then you're better off just sticking with the PSP collection.

[GohanX]

Only resurface a game if it's unplayable. Disc resurfacers (especially cheaper ones) can just as easily destroy a good disc as repair a bad one.

[kazekirifx]

I've found a lot more damaged discs on the Japanese market than in the U.S. -simply because the system was more mainstream here in Japan. I've purchased some fairly beaten up games at used stores. I've found that PC CD-ROM drives tend to be a lot less fussy than the TGCD drive, so when I bought a scratched-to-hell copy of Legend of Heroes II that basically didn't work at all, I just made a CD-R copy using the scratched-to-hell disc and, voila, perfect working CD-R backup.

Incidentally, that's the only case in which I will ever consider making a CD-R backup though. Normally they're not necessary as long as you buy working discs and just take care of them.

[Bardoly]

I'm just planning on trying to get Rondo X, and I just want to protect my $70-100 investment.

Video games aren't an investment.

You are correct.  I misspoke? miss-typed?  Perhaps I should have used the word property instead.  I stand corrected.


Thanks also for taking the time to address all of the issues that I brought up.  I've always been a cartridge/HuCard kind of guy, so getting into Turbo CD games will be my first foray into CD gaming, and I just want to make sure that I don't make too many mistakes.  I've already acquired several Turbo CD games and am in the process of getting a few more, and I'm getting my region-modded DUO from Keith Courage tomorrow!  I wanted to start off with a few good games first, and I want to make sure that I'm not going to get 3/4 of the way through a game and then start having glitches due to scratched disks and such.  I'm really completely unfamiliar with how much 'damage' - scratches, scuffs, etc... a normal Turbo CD game can take while retaining the ability to play fine with no problems.

[kazekirifx]

Video games aren't an investment.

They're not? Then how can I justify to myself buying $400 games on occasion?

[Hewitson]

An investment is generally something that is going to increase in value. With video games that isn't necessarily the case, it could well be worth less than you paid for it if you decide to sell it in the future.

[xcrement5x]

I only buy games in good shape and treat them properly, and as such have never needed such a service.  Much like any other CD, though, resurfacing works fine if the disc is not too badly damaged and it's done properly.

Emphasis mine.

The difference between someone who actually knows how to resurface a disc properly and the person who just slaps it in the machine is light years.  If you've gotten a resurfaced disc that you can tell has been resurfaced, the person isn't doing a good job.  There was a guy near me who was phenomenal at it and you could never even tell something had been resurfaced after you got it back, sadly he closed up shop and I've still got some games that need addressing. 

However, I'll only resurface a game if I actually have issue playing it.  Otherwise I'll just live with tiny scratches because they don't seem to cause any problems.

[FiftyQuid]

An investment is generally something that is going to increase in value. With video games that isn't necessarily the case, it could well be worth less than you paid for it if you decide to sell it in the future.

Video games > Gold

Every good reseller knows this. 

[VestCunt]

An investment is generally something that is going to increase in value. With video games that isn't necessarily the case, it could well be worth less than you paid for it if you decide to sell it in the future.

If value is even a factor, it's an investment. Too many people buy stuff because they think it's valuable.

I want to make sure that I'm not going to get 3/4 of the way through a game and then start having glitches due to scratched disks and such.  I'm really completely unfamiliar with how much 'damage' - scratches, scuffs, etc... a normal Turbo CD game can take while retaining the ability to play fine with no problems.

The Turbo is OK with scratched CDs. IME, scuffs and hairline scratches are no problem at all. Skipping audio has been never been a problem. I don't have any discs with deep scratches. My only problem disc is Psychic Storm - one of the later levels won't load because of a top scratch on the silver above the inner ring.

The only CD system I have to compare the Turbo to is a 3DO FZ-10, which is MUCH better. I have discs that look like they've been chewed by dogs play fine in that thing.

[wilykat]

Video games > Gold

Every good reseller knows this. 

QFT

Too bad eBay is full of seller who aren't good and expects to get over $100 from a loose, dirt-common game.  Or a VGA graded game for the price of a Ferrari.

I remember when eBay didn't have buy it now feature. Of course seller could have auction with ridiculously high starting bid or impossibly high reserve.

[CrackTiger]

If If value is even a factor, it's an investment. Too many people buy stuff because they think it's valuable.

I gladly pay up to hundreds of dollars for games that I want to play a legit copy of. But I never expect or even hope that they will hold their "value" (to other people). Most PCE/Turbo games I have bought have dropped in value by 90+%. I paid $100+ for many games that now sell complete or even new for <$10 and I couldn't be happier. Whenever I see a pricey game that I paid a lot for steadily drop in price, I get excited. I don't shout "NO! My investment portfolio is ruined!"

Whenever I buy a game, whether I pay $5 or $500, it essentially becomes worthless dollar-wise to me. Because I don't buy games at reasonable prices to resell. I only buy games for myself to keep and play. If down the road for whatever reason I decide to part with a game, I don't whip out an investment list to base its value around what I once paid. I just figure out what a fair current price for it is and sell it for at least slightly less than that.

[Drakon]

For me whatever people are asking for a game I sit down and think "will I get 90$ worth of fun out of this game?" and if the answer is "yes!" then I'll buy it.

[RegalSin]

Oxygen and light is not our friend, in preservation. That is what I understand.

[Bernie]

Its you again......

[xcrement5x]

Oxygen and light is not our friend, in preservation. That is what I understand.

That's what I'm going to tell my kids when their Grandpa dies.  Short, sweet, and straight to the point.

[8bitForLife]

well a couple of my games got scratchs on them from my rx its totally resurfacable. I am not a slob or anything just accidents  from me opening the top of the system before it was done spinning.  I have been thinking of sending my 4 games to http://www.ebay.com/itm/271009578318?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 its an ok price.

[blueraven]

I only buy games in good shape and treat them properly, and as such have never needed such a service.  Much like any other CD, though, resurfacing works fine if the disc is not too badly damaged and it's done properly.

Yar.

[SignOfZeta]

well a couple of my games got scratchs on them from my rx its totally resurfacable. I am not a slob or anything just accidents  from me opening the top of the system before it was done spinning.  I have been thinking of sending my 4 games to http://www.ebay.com/itm/271009578318?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 its an ok price.

If you open a Duo while it's still spinning the only thing that will get scratched is the hub, and there isn't any data there.

Are you saying the discs won't play now? Or are these scratches just cosmetic? If the game still plays I wouldn't change a thing. If the games don't play properly then something else happened besides opening the door when the disc was playing.

[esteban]

TANGENT, OF SORTS:
I have Dungeon Explorer 2 (US) with a gouge in it. One of my favorite songs (cave drippy water song) just screws up ~60 seconds into the song and creates an ugly digital scratch/pop as the CD player corrects itself.

This makes me sad .

The disc is otherwise pristine.

I will gladly swap discs with anyone willing to do so.

I wish I wasn't 100% serious about this.

[MottZilla]

People were commenting that CDs will out live you. While that depends on your age, for younger people that is not necessarily true. Yes people tout CD-ROMs as having such a long life-span but there are CD-ROMs that have already failed. And they all will fail eventually. And depending on how old you are, and how old a particular disc is, you may out live it. And how well made the disc is and how well stored and handled it has been all play a factor. But even if you store it and treat it like a champ it may still fail on you one day. So don't go overboard worrying about it.

I agree that you should only resort to resurfacing if a disc is not playing correctly or at all. And that you should seek professional help and not try to get a cheap fix.

[VestCunt]

People were commenting that CDs will out live you. While that depends on your age, for younger people that is not necessarily true.

Could you please link some sources?

[MottZilla]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_rot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_bronzing

While I've not heard about any mass problems with any game CD-ROMs, these discs are not never ending. Eventually the reflective layer could get exposed to oxygen and begin to suffer from oxidation. Then it will eventually be useless. How that happens, who knows. You very well could find that a particular CD-ROM lasts 100 years after being pressed. But those are all estimates obviously as the format has not existed that long. We do know that heat and humidity are bad. Oxygen probably too. So if you store all your discs in a cool, dry, oxygen free room, you'll be in good shape. Really my point is just that you shouldn't worry too much about it as eventually the disc may stop working despite your best efforts to avoid any scratches or extreme temperatures.

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah well...I've got a few CDs that are almost 30 years old and they are fine. I have about 1000 more that are of lesser vintage and I've not once seen a single issue of bit rot. As far as I'm concerned the shit is good forever.

Laserdisc collectors are quite familiar with rot since LDs are two CD-like discs glued together. Imperfections in the gluing process are what cause oxidation and what eventually leads to rot. Its the reflective aluminum later that oxidizes and this can only happen if there are impurities in the laquer top coat (CD) or glue (LD) that allow the oxidation to continue for years after manufacture. Oxygen in atmosphere as little to no effect since the aluminum in the disc is completely sealed. the Certain types of discs from certain factories are especially prone to rot, and others aren't. Conventional wisdom these days is that if a disc is ever going to rot, the causes for it were in place at the factory. It may take years to manifest, but it the rot was unavoidable from the point the defective disc was make. Aside from extreme heat/cold cases there really isn't anything you can do to cause or prevent rot. I'm inclined to believe the same thing is true of CDs. Additionally, rot in CDs is at least 1000 times as rare as rot in LDs.

If rot was ever going to effect PC Engine games, for example, some of which are as much as 23 years old, we would have seen at least a couple of rotters by now. I've never heard of a single one.

[motdelbourt]

People were commenting that CDs will out live you. While that depends on your age, for younger people that is not necessarily true.

Could you please link some sources?

[Ji-L87]

Hm...I bought two music CDs earlier this year that aren't very scratched at all (near mint, I would say) but both exhibited playback problems. Guessing, I'd say these are from the early 90s. I took one of them, a Sailor Moon CD to the local GAME store to see if a resurfacing would make any difference (this disc refused to play at all, in anything that could play a CD). After that I could actually be played back (first track not really playing well but still) but it costed too much for me to do it again with the other CD, which actually plays well after the first two tracks.

[8bitForLife]

well a couple of my games got scratchs on them from my rx its totally resurfacable. I am not a slob or anything just accidents  from me opening the top of the system before it was done spinning.  I have been thinking of sending my 4 games to http://www.ebay.com/itm/271009578318?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 its an ok price.

If you open a Duo while it's still spinning the only thing that will get scratched is the hub, and there isn't any data there.

Are you saying the discs won't play now? Or are these scratches just cosmetic? If the game still plays I wouldn't change a thing. If the games don't play properly then something else happened besides opening the door when the disc was playing.

it was a scratch in a circle all the way around the disc. It could of been pots or the laser calibration but I'm not sure as I dont know anything technical wise about the turbob. It would have trouble loading some games others the redbook would ether not play or take the laser very long time to start to read the track. I burned rayxanber III for shits and giggles to check it out and it wouldn't load that game for anything and I tried burning it with different programs and speeds but it wouldnt work but would play in my pc with magic engine just fine. I sent it to thesteve to fix any problems and mod it for a region switch and I think hes doing component to it. So hopefully when when i get it back all cd reading problems are fixed.

[soop]

CDs don't wear out. Just don't destroy the poor things by leaving them laying around out of their cases, setting it down on the read side, allowing dirtbags to handle your stuff, etc.

Well, I got Forza 4 brand new, and it was in my 360 the entire time before it fucked up, and straight from the drive for the first time, it was scratched.  That wasn't actually the issue, as I had it polished and it was still fucked.

But yeah, if a DVD can get scratched just from being in the drive, then I believe they're not exactly safe, even if the 360 is a different kettle of fish to a Super CD system

[SignOfZeta]

CDs don't wear out. Just don't destroy the poor things by leaving them laying around out of their cases, setting it down on the read side, allowing dirtbags to handle your stuff, etc.

Well, I got Forza 4 brand new, and it was in my 360 the entire time before it fucked up, and straight from the drive for the first time, it was scratched.  That wasn't actually the issue, as I had it polished and it was still fucked.

But yeah, if a DVD can get scratched just from being in the drive, then I believe they're not exactly safe, even if the 360 is a different kettle of fish to a Super CD system

So you are saying that the XBox scratched the disc? That's pretty fucking lame. I do know of an issue with PS2s doing this to CD (blue) games, but I didn't know 360s did it too.

[MottZilla]

The older CD-ROM systems *should* be less likely to scratch up the discs for you.

Anyway, CDs with proper handling should last a long time. But shit happens, and eventually unavoidable issues may arise and cause the disc to no longer be readable. It should hopefully be a long way off. But I wouldn't make any plans to be playing your Turbo CD on your 95th birthday just yet.

[SignOfZeta]

I'm pretty sure it's completely impossible for a CDROM2 to scratch a disc unless the thing falls apart while playing, and even then a 1x drive can only do so much.

[VestCunt]

Mottzilla, I hear what you're saying and it's good to be cautious, but your fears are a bit extreme.

As a sound engineer, avid video gamer, and a bit of computer dork, I've yet to hear a complaint about CD players or CD-ROMs wearing out CDs (other than Soop's post about DVD's in an XBOX). Can you find individual anecdotes and freak occurrences? Yes. And there are certainly some faulty players and poorly made devices, but it's not a failure of CD's or optical technology.

CD Bronzing is only a problem with music discs made at one factory over the course of five years.

Disc rot exists, but it's not a widespread problem. If it were, sites would be devoted to tracking it like collectors do with poorly made LDs. Disc rot is a problem with CD-Rs and LDs, not replicated CDs.

You keep waving your arms about CDs wearing out, but there's no evidence of a problem on the horizon. CDs have had ample time to exhibit disc rot and they haven't. Other than bronzed CDs from the Blackburn plant, there don't seem be any other large-scale manufacturing mistakes in the West. I have yet to see disc rot on a glass-mastered CD. Gamers come here every day with broken hardware, but we haven't heard about CDs damaged by anything other than abuse. Until I see concrete evidence or frequent reports, I'll worry about my hardware first, cartridges second, and CDs last.

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah, your CDs are far more likely to be destroyed by your house burning down or something like that than bit rot.

Most of us here have seen a SHIT LOAD of CDs in our lives. I started collecting CD in 1991 and I have quite a few older than that (old enough to have "emphasis bits"). I own hundreds of audio CDs, a few hundred games, and then there all the stupid discs like driver CDs, OS install discs, etc. Then there are all the other people I know who are much more avid collectors, people with literally thousands of CDs, and I'm pretty sure I can't think of a single case of a CDROM or audio CD crapping out.

CD is a very mature technology. There are thousands of stamping plants on six continents operating in all sorts of conditions and at all sorts of budgets, from ISO compliant clean rooms on Switzerland to shacks with no plumbing in Nigeria. If it was in any way a problem-prone technology we'd be swimming in the shit by now since BILLIONS of CDs have been pressed since 1982.

What has crapped out for sure; DVD, HDDVD (a somewhat large percentage, actually) Laserdisc, and usually (always?) the double sided types. Are there two sided Bluray discs? If so, I wouldn't at all be surprised to hear of them rotting.

Laserdisc is the most rot prone optical medium by far, and even there rotters are pretty rare. If you only buy 90s LDs from Japan you may have to have 1000 discs before you see your first rotter. If you bought a lot of Discovision...you are pretty familiar with rot, but that's because those discs were made before rot was even discovered, and before safeguards were put in place.

[wilykat]

In my life I've had only 1 bad CD and 1 bad DVD

Cd was ruined by cat pissing on it.  The ammonia content ate through the label side and turned most of the silver layer almost black.

DVD was one of the early dual layer, a few were affected by imperfect process when pressed dual layer were made commercially (late 1990's) but it's still rare.

Neither of them got "ruined" while in a player.

[soop]

FYI, we did go through this whole thing a while back (probably more than once) - here's my topic you can read through, there's some good stuff in there. https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=11394.0

[kazekirifx]

If you only buy 90s LDs from Japan you may have to have 1000 discs before you see your first rotter.

I agree it's rare, but not quite that rare. My collection is probably a couple hundred LDs at most; I'm sure I don't have 1000. I have 3 rotters in my collection that I know of, and all are 90s LDs from Japan. I know that one of them is a known frequent rotter. Not sure about the other two.