Duo save capacity comparisons and/or alternatives requested

[Bardoly]

I've only recently gotten a PC Engine Duo, and I've already run into save problems.  I've been playing several different games, and my system is only allowing me to save about 10-15 different saves.  According to this Turbo Duo Game Save FAQ, different game saves take up different amounts of memory.  I understand this, and I also understand that there is something called a TENNOKOE BANK which can help with running out of save memory without having to delete saves, although I don't fully understand how to use this yet, and I don't even have one right now.

My question is this:  Do the TG-16 Turbo Duo and all of the various PC Engine Duos all have the same save capacity?  Or do some of them have more or less save capacity?  As in, can one of the various Duo releases store more saves than the others?  If so, then I might want to look into getting the one with more save capacity, since I'm not fully understanding the benefits of the Tennokoe Bank yet, and I'm wanting to be able to save more than 10-15 different games.

[NecroPhile]

They all have the same capacity of ~2000 units (bits?).  The Tennokoe Bank cards allow you to either move or swap the entire bank (no picking and choosing which files to archive) to one of three slots on the card.

[Bernie]

I believe they are all the same.  Invest in one of the tennokoe bank cards.  They are cheap and easy to use.  I can send you a basic guide if needed.  It would be nice if there were an option to make the save capacity bigger.  Not sure how that could/would be done though.

[Bardoly]

They all have the same capacity of ~2000 units (bits?).  The Tennokoe Bank cards allow you to either move or swap the entire bank (no picking and choosing which files to archive) to one of three slots on the card.

This is helpful information for sure.
So, are you saying that a single Tennokoe Bank card can basically store 3 times as much data as a Duo?
So basically, if I want to mantain all of my save game/high score/etc... save data, then I should probably get 2-3 Tennokoe Bank cards?

Also, aren't the Tennokoe Bank cards saved themselves by battery?  So when the battery dies, so do all of the saves?

Thanks.

[Bardoly]

I believe they are all the same.  Invest in one of the tennokoe bank cards.  They are cheap and easy to use.  I can send you a basic guide if needed.  It would be nice if there were an option to make the save capacity bigger.  Not sure how that could/would be done though.

If the guide is different from the GameFAQs guide link that I posted, then please send it to me.

Yes, it seems that it would be awesome if there were some way that a save card with SD card capability would be great, but alas, I too have no clue how that could be done as well.

[SignOfZeta]

Yeah, they are all the same and the Bank is pretty much your only option.

Honestly though, what are you really going to do with a save file for a game you haven't played in five years? I used to be really concerned about such things but after having owned turbo stuff for 20 years now I've come to realize that there just isn't much point trying to archive everything. By the time I come back to Dracula X I'm going to want to start from the beginning anyway.

[NecroPhile]

So, are you saying that a single Tennokoe Bank card can basically store 3 times as much data as a Duo?

Yes.  Keep in mind that it saves the system's memory three times separately (not one big file) and that's all it does - you can't save directly to the card from within games.

So basically, if I want to mantain all of my save game/high score/etc... save data, then I should probably get 2-3 Tennokoe Bank cards?

That depends on how many and which games you have, as games like Sim Earth and Might & Magic III can use up one whole slot on the bank card all by themselves.

Also, aren't the Tennokoe Bank cards saved themselves by battery?  So when the battery dies, so do all of the saves?

Yep.  If you want a more reliable solution, you can use the Nanami (sp?) Bank utility or Chris Covell's BRAM tool to make hard copies of each save file - a lengthy and laborious process where you write down (and input) each save manually, like the worlds most tedious password..

[Bernie]

Whats the nanami bank utility?

[NecroPhile]

Whats the nanami bank utility?  

Use search, ya phookin' noob!  

It's a utility (that you burn to CD like a game iso) that can display each save file's hex data on screen or can recreate previously 'saved' files.  Here's a quote from Termis that describes the process in detail:

1. You download nanami, and it's an iso that you burn on to a CDR.  
2. Then you execute it on your PCE CD-based system.
3. Then to "back-up" a file, all that nanami does is display all the hex data of the save file on screen, and you have to manually write this down on a sheet of paper.  (Though it's 10 billion times easier & much less error prone if you just to take a few snapshots via a digital camera.)
4. Then you run one of the nanami utilities on your PC, and once again, manually type in all that binary data back in.  Obviously this is the part where it takes the longest time.  (though quick for small save files, a long RPG game, you can be typing for a good 7-10 minutes).
5. This recreates the save file on your PC
6. Then you create an iso file using one of the tools included in nanami.A
7. Now you burn another CDR of this iso image.
8. Now with this CDR again, you have to option to write that save file back on to the PCE SRAM, or go back to step 3) whenever you want to "backup" another file.

In sum, the big cons of this system is that you have to waste a CDR every time you want to write the save files you have on your PC back on to your Duo, and step 4), since it's a pain-in-the-ass.  But the big Pro is the fact that you have a permanent save file much more secure than a ten-no-koe bank, and you can store virtually unlimited number of save files on to that one CD.  Once again, I only recommend that you "backup" files via nanami only after you know for a fact that the particular save file you want to save is the "final" version you want to archive.  I basically treat ten-no-koe as my "temporary" backup these days.

[esteban]

You say "laborious", I say "grueling" process! 

[Bernie]

Screw that mess!  Lol

[BigusSchmuck]

Whats the nanami bank utility? 

Use search, ya phookin' noob! 

It's a utility (that you burn to CD like a game iso) that can display each save file's hex data on screen or can recreate previously 'saved' files.  Here's a quote from Termis that describes the process in detail:

1. You download nanami, and it's an iso that you burn on to a CDR. 
2. Then you execute it on your PCE CD-based system.
3. Then to "back-up" a file, all that nanami does is display all the hex data of the save file on screen, and you have to manually write this down on a sheet of paper.  (Though it's 10 billion times easier & much less error prone if you just to take a few snapshots via a digital camera.)
4. Then you run one of the nanami utilities on your PC, and once again, manually type in all that binary data back in.  Obviously this is the part where it takes the longest time.  (though quick for small save files, a long RPG game, you can be typing for a good 7-10 minutes).
5. This recreates the save file on your PC
6. Then you create an iso file using one of the tools included in nanami.A
7. Now you burn another CDR of this iso image.
8. Now with this CDR again, you have to option to write that save file back on to the PCE SRAM, or go back to step 3) whenever you want to "backup" another file.

In sum, the big cons of this system is that you have to waste a CDR every time you want to write the save files you have on your PC back on to your Duo, and step 4), since it's a pain-in-the-ass.  But the big Pro is the fact that you have a permanent save file much more secure than a ten-no-koe bank, and you can store virtually unlimited number of save files on to that one CD.  Once again, I only recommend that you "backup" files via nanami only after you know for a fact that the particular save file you want to save is the "final" version you want to archive.  I basically treat ten-no-koe as my "temporary" backup these days.

Now I have a valid excuse to get rid of most of my cdrs.

[Bardoly]

Sounds 'exciting'...  So, is there a library of these iso's of certain saves which people like to save?  I would like to create my own, but I'm curious.

[VestCunt]

Sounds 'exciting'...  So, is there a library of these iso's of certain saves which people like to save?  I would like to create my own, but I'm curious.

Not exactly the same, but I have a flippin' sweet password for the last battle in Order of the Griffon!

[termis]

Sounds 'exciting'...  So, is there a library of these iso's of certain saves which people like to save?  I would like to create my own, but I'm curious.

Not a library of isos, but I have a library of bunch of binary save files (that's identical to the save file that's used in the PCE/TG16).  I just create a iso of with a number of these save files on one CD whenever I need them (I've since then found out that you can only link about a few dozen on one CDR at a time, so another weak link in the system there - however, you can still keep virtually unlimited amount of save files on your local hard drive, of course).

All this said, I've started going emulation lately, and it's much easier there because you can simply just cut out the binary code of just the save game portions from the system BRAM file and save that using a hex editor (you can verify the beginning and ending points using nanami bank).

Definitely not a quick black-box solution, but this is the only permanent solution I've seen so far...

And zeta also has a point... When't the next time I'm going to pull out the save file for some obscure RPG game like Aurora Quest and load it up my Duo?  Chances are pretty good that it'll be never.

[SignOfZeta]

IIRC we used the Nanami Bank utility to unlock Force Gear in Tokimeki Memorial. That one use alone justifies the existence of this tool.

I haven't used it since though...kind of laborious.

[esteban]

IIRC we used the Nanami Bank utility to unlock Force Gear in Tokimeki Memorial. That one use alone justifies the existence of this tool.

I haven't used it since though...kind of laborious.

I remember that. I still haven't played that*! Damn it!


* Force Gear, dumbasses.

[dshadoff]

First, the Tennokoe Bank's battery *can* go dead, and it does *not* recharge while in use in the Turbo system - so the original, 20-year-old batteries are probably basically dead or untrustworthy.

However, it can be replaced with a new battery of type CR2016.
Note that the battery was not originally considered replaceable, and it is soldered in place rather than a battery holder.

CR2025 and CR2032 could also be used, and are higher-capacity batteries, but are thicker and would make the cartridge bulge even more than it already does.  I suggest buying a battery with leads already welded to it, as the leads will accept solder more readily than the battery itself would... and heating the battery directly with a soldering iron could be dangerous.  This type was used in the original cartridge as well.
For example:  http://www.batterymart.com/p-rc2016-3v-75m-lithium-battery-solder-tabs.html

The plastic cover on the cartridge is held on by super-thin double-sided tape.  I once had pictures of the replacement process and may even have made a webpage for it at one time... but I've forgotten where I put them.



OK, and the second thought I had was about the Nanami tool.
I really like it, but I had a few ideas for its improvement - though I likely don't have enough time to implement them myself:

1) Instead of requiring the user to painstakingly transcribe a long data stream, a 2D barcode could be displayed, and scanned by cellphone.  Not sure if this could make a file directly, but it could certainly go to a website (including QUERY data) to convert/generate such files for download.

2) Individual games' data should be separable and recombinable.  This is not so difficult, since the storage format is pretty well-understood.  There are two reasons for doing this: a) so that indivdual game saves could be archived, traded, studied, etc. (like the unlock of Force Gear in Tokimeki Memorial stated above), and b) to reduce the size of data displayed by the barcode, to make it less problematic.

[termis]

OK, and the second thought I had was about the Nanami tool.
I really like it, but I had a few ideas for its improvement - though I likely don't have enough time to implement them myself:

1) Instead of requiring the user to painstakingly transcribe a long data stream, a 2D barcode could be displayed, and scanned by cellphone.  Not sure if this could make a file directly, but it could certainly go to a website (including QUERY data) to convert/generate such files for download.

2) Individual games' data should be separable and recombinable.  This is not so difficult, since the storage format is pretty well-understood.  There are two reasons for doing this: a) so that indivdual game saves could be archived, traded, studied, etc. (like the unlock of Force Gear in Tokimeki Memorial stated above), and b) to reduce the size of data displayed by the barcode, to make it less problematic.

#1 - that's a clever idea.  me likes.
#2 - I might be misunderstanding you, but the tool does save individual files one at a time (rather than the whole bank like ten-no-koe).  In fact, you have to save the files individually.

I'd add #3 in creating an all-necessary-files-included, easy-to-use GUI interface.  I would guesstimate that currently, 80%-90% of potential users would probably fail to get this nanami bank working at the current state, or wouldn't even bother trying in the first place.  There's not only the cryptic command prompt interface, but you also have to download few additional tools, put them in your working directory, or set the right path in your settings, etc - And all this is all before any binary code recording/typing (though #1 would take care of that issue)...

[SamIAm]

Crazy idea: What if you made a program for the PCE that broke down the bytes of each internal save file into 1's and 0's, then played these as a steady stream of audio beeps (maybe taking advantage of stereo) that could be recorded via direct analog connection, analyzed based on waveform peaks, and converted back into a save file? It'd be like a modem, just a lot slower. Sounds more reliable than a barcode to me.

[NecroPhile]

Crazy idea: What if you made a program for the PCE that broke down the bytes of each internal save file into 1's and 0's, then played these as a steady stream of audio beeps (maybe taking advantage of stereo) that could be recorded via direct analog connection, analyzed based on waveform peaks, and converted back into a save file? It'd be like a modem, just a lot slower. Sounds more reliable than a barcode to me.

I believe Bonknuts did something like that.

[Bardoly]

So, grahf's Memory Base 128 thread got me to thinking about save capacity again.

I did some searching, and I came up with he following information which I would like to either have confirmed or denounced as incorrect:

This webpage says that the PC Engine Duo-RX has more save capacity than the PC Engine Duo and Duo-R.  I would like to have as much save capacity as possible without needing to deal with additional hardware, so if this is true, then I suppose that I need to hunt down a Duo-RX.

[SignOfZeta]

I'm not an expert on such things, and I've never owned an RX (just an R, which I had always though was identical to the RX save the controller) but this guy is saying that the Duo had 2kb of save space and the RX had 192. Nearly 100 TIMES as much save space? Which he says "somewhat rectified the issue".

If one system at 100 times the save space as a IFU/Duo/DuoR then it would more than "somewhat" fix "the problem" it would eliminate it completely because, seriously, you really don't need saves for a game you haven't played in 7 years. Just play it again, you won't remember WTF you were doing anyway.

BTW, the Memory Base 128 is mostly useless and I think the guy writing this article doesn't know what he's talking about, AFAIK.

[NecroPhile]

Yarr, that guy's full o' beans; they all have the same amount of save space.  Maybe he's mixed up with the extra 192kb of ram that all Duos have.

P.S. - I bet if you searched the interweb tubes long enough you'd find a site falsely claiming that the Duo-RX has the Arcade Card built in.

[CrackTiger]

Hi Leg Fantasy overwrote all of the save files in my Duo RX. I'm assuming, because there wasn't enough space. I ran into save file space warnings with various games on my Duo RX, the same as on every other PCE/Turbo CD-ROM (I haven't tried a Super CD-ROM yet though).

[Tatsujin]

never heard of that as well.

[grahf]

Super CD-rom has the same 2k as the others.

[Tatsujin]

so, super gayjin ultra gamer was wrong?

[Official Ninja]

First, the Tennokoe Bank's battery *can* go dead, and it does *not* recharge while in use in the Turbo system - so the original, 20-year-old batteries are probably basically dead or untrustworthy.

However, it can be replaced with a new battery of type CR2016.
Note that the battery was not originally considered replaceable, and it is soldered in place rather than a battery holder.

CR2025 and CR2032 could also be used, and are higher-capacity batteries, but are thicker and would make the cartridge bulge even more than it already does.  I suggest buying a battery with leads already welded to it, as the leads will accept solder more readily than the battery itself would... and heating the battery directly with a soldering iron could be dangerous.  This type was used in the original cartridge as well.
For example:  http://www.batterymart.com/p-rc2016-3v-75m-lithium-battery-solder-tabs.html

The plastic cover on the cartridge is held on by super-thin double-sided tape.  I once had pictures of the replacement process and may even have made a webpage for it at one time... but I've forgotten where I put them.



OK, and the second thought I had was about the Nanami tool.
I really like it, but I had a few ideas for its improvement - though I likely don't have enough time to implement them myself:

1) Instead of requiring the user to painstakingly transcribe a long data stream, a 2D barcode could be displayed, and scanned by cellphone.  Not sure if this could make a file directly, but it could certainly go to a website (including QUERY data) to convert/generate such files for download.

2) Individual games' data should be separable and recombinable.  This is not so difficult, since the storage format is pretty well-understood.  There are two reasons for doing this: a) so that indivdual game saves could be archived, traded, studied, etc. (like the unlock of Force Gear in Tokimeki Memorial stated above), and b) to reduce the size of data displayed by the barcode, to make it less problematic.

Hi. I removed the top of my Tennokoe Bank card and I see a battery CR2320 in there. So was my battery already replaced maybe? It looks like the lid was hot glued and not two sided tape... I ordered a CR2016 with solder tabs and will replace the battery as soon as i get the new one. I'm just wondering. Is CR2320 the original or was it replaced?

[A Black Falcon]

I'm not an expert on such things, and I've never owned an RX (just an R, which I had always though was identical to the RX save the controller) but this guy is saying that the Duo had 2kb of save space and the RX had 192. Nearly 100 TIMES as much save space? Which he says "somewhat rectified the issue".

If one system at 100 times the save space as a IFU/Duo/DuoR then it would more than "somewhat" fix "the problem" it would eliminate it completely because, seriously, you really don't need saves for a game you haven't played in 7 years. Just play it again, you won't remember WTF you were doing anyway.

I believe that guy is confusing RAM and save memory.  They are not the same thing. :p  I've never heard from credible sites that the RX actually has more save memory.  I guess it'd be nice if someone could confirm that for sure though.

BTW, the Memory Base 128 is mostly useless and I think the guy writing this article doesn't know what he's talking about, AFAIK.

Actually, if you read that MB128 thread that was linked, I'm pretty sure that via certain, specific games you can in fact back up the system's internal save onto the MB128, and thus CAN use it as a big memory backup unit... so yes, it is quite useful!

[xcrement5x]

I was thinking about this the other day.  Would it be easy to change it so that a QR code is displayed with the save data embedded?  So many smartphones have QR recognition abilities the it would be easy to take a picture of that rather than copying the text or whatnot.

[MottZilla]

Someday the Turbo EverDrive flash cart could support backing up your save data to the SD card. Perhaps even file management.

[A Black Falcon]

Someday the Turbo EverDrive flash cart could support backing up your save data to the SD card. Perhaps even file management.

I'd buy a Turbo Everdrive just for that, if it (or some other flash card) had such an awesome feature...