Looking for an artist to collaborate on a shooter

[Lochlan]

Hi!

I have a working game engine for a horizontal shooter and I am stuck on the art.  I'm fairly far along, the engine supports multiple enemy types and objects through a kind of primitive polymorphism, has collision detection, etc.  It's also fairly fast, I can support a pretty large number of objects on-screen simultaneously.  A lot of the finer points haven't been handled (how I handle player death, points, etc.) but that's largely because I've been trying to figure out the graphics myself...and failing to come up with satisfactory results!

Are there any artists here who might be interested in collaborating?  I want the game to be a fairly generic space shooter, thematically and visually.  I would need to maintain creative control of the project.

I'm not ready to show off to the forums at-large (my graphics suck!!) but I'm happy to e-mail a ROM of my WIP to anyone who might be seriously interested.   I am willing to do some kind of profit sharing with an artist who works on this project with me through completion, although any interested party should be aware that this a labor of love and realistically there is no money in this.

Anyway, if this sounds like something you (or somebody you know) could be interested in, please send me a PM (preferably with a link to some kind of portfolio).

Thanks for looking!

[Psycho Punch]

While I'm not an artist I'm looking forward to this game. Come on, share us some screenshots (:

[Tatsujin]

i would if i could but i can't 

hope you will find some nice artists for a soon awesome shoot'em up on our beloved system d'obey

[_Paul]

Get the game in a serious state of readyness, use crappy temp artwork for the time being.

If you build it, the artists will come...

[lord_cack]

Man, I have been working on some art for action side scrollers,  ARPG's, RPG's, platformers..... but shooters, not my thing. I hope some one comes around to help you out. Also, I have tons of stuff on my plate at the moment and more that I would like to do.

[Tatsujin]

I vote for paul as one of the most amazing "pixel artist" I have seen

[Lochlan]

Get the game in a serious state of readyness, use crappy temp artwork for the time being.

I don't know what constitutes a "serious" state, but it's already quite far along (engine-wise...level design still needs to happen).  IDK if Arkhan has showed you the ugly demo, but all the major components are in-place.  I haven't handled stuff like explosion animations etc. etc. but I feel stifled by a lack of art when it comes to that stuff.  My crappy temp artwork is seriously crappy!  I need something good!  Temporary artwork is fine, but I think people underestimate the role of graphics as a component of the mechanics.

Anyway,

Do you know of a better place to find a collaborator?  Maybe a pixel-art-centric site?  I'm totally ignorant of that world.  So far I've gotten only one very friendly but half-hearted offer, with many disclaimers of "I probably don't have time for this."

[OldMan]

My crappy temp artwork is seriously crappy!  I need something good!

If you really feel that way, why not look at some games you like, and 'borrow' the sprites, etc. from them? That should at least give you a feel for how you want the graphics to look, and how much VRAM they are gonna use.  They should be easily replaceable when you find an artist, and will allow you to sort out all the things that are missing.

[Lochlan]

^ I've been trying to avoid that route just because I think it's kinda lame...not to mention copyright infringement.  (Yeah, yeah, I know I'm not going to get sued--I'm just not into the idea.)  But maybe I'll just bite the bullet and move that direction anyway, something is better than nothing!

[OldMan]

My bad. I'm not advocating taking sprites from another game, so much as re-creating something similar to what you want. There aren't that many ways to draw a ship (or explosion, or shot) and still have it recognizeable. If you re-create it, it is unlikely you will have the exact same palette, etc.
AFAIK, it's not (yet) illegal to mimic someone elses work....

As far as copyright infringement: as an unreleased work, using the graphics as placeholders, I don't see a problem with that - but I'm not a lawyer. As long as everyone who plays it knows that the sprites are based on another game and will not be in the final, released version, I don't see a problem.

And you might actually come up with something you like from trying to copy something else
Fwiw: I'm sure there are free-to-use sprites out there. You just have to look long and hard in google

[Nando]

What paul and the old man said. Proof of concept and mockups help a ton.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Placeholder's are no problem.  For instance, I haven't worked on the Title Screen theme for Jungle Bros., so in it's place, we have the Sanford & Son theme until I do!

[touko]

@lochlan: You have ari feldman's sprites lib.
It's GPL and free to use for commercial or not .

http://www.widgetworx.com/widgetworx/portfolio/spritelib.html

[Siskan]

I might be able to assist. Some stuff by me:

(24*) (24) (9)
The original pocket watch design belongs to Daisuke Moriyama. The singer depicts Joey Tempest. Others are my original characters.
*Color count.

Currently working on this piece (the lake was previously a sky, so it needs some adjustments to mend the messed up perspective):


If you're interested, I'd like some more info myself before promising anything.

[touko]

Wahou,beautiful.

[Nando]

Dam Siskan! Very nice!

[Siskan]

Thanks!

[Tatsujin]

what kind of pixelsoft are you using? btw. nice work sis

[ParanoiaDragon]

Word up!  We should have another nice looking shmup to look forward to now!!

[Siskan]

Thank you. I'm using GraphicsGale.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Thank you. I'm using GraphicsGale.

Better learn a paint program that supports PCX, then!

[Siskan]

No need to use anything inferior when you could just convert to pcx though.

[Nando]

Thank you. I'm using GraphicsGale.

I've been curious about the program, just don't want to deal with the learning curve as I already use photoshop. I'll have to look into it more one of these days. What I liked the best about it were the spline/curve tools and all the dedicated pixel art stuff.

Do you have "portfolio" with more of your work?

[Siskan]

I've been curious about the program, just don't want to deal with the learning curve as I already use photoshop. I'll have to look into it more one of these days. What I liked the best about it were the spline/curve tools and all the dedicated pixel art stuff.

Do you have "portfolio" with more of your work?

I've used Photoshop for many things other than pixel art for years and I have to say GraphicsGale is much easier to use. It's simple as it has many features tailored for pixel art, but not another million features Photoshop has that you won't use for pixel art. Since a couple of years back it's also easy to rearrange the user interface so that it feels logical to yourself.

One thing I like which my old version of PS does not have (not sure about newer ones) is the fact that GG
makes a difference between layers and frames. Which means you can have several layers within each frame. But most of all, it's the way the line tool works. Pixel art is all about planning each pixel, but if you do it the right way you can place several pixels at once with the line tool, as well as just one. So no need to switch tools. Also PS enforces automated anti-aliasing with most tools, which is a big no no.

I haven't done a very good job at making my work available online for many years now. I don't have any portfolio, but I have a deviantART account with mixed media. The majority is stuff from 2006-2009 but there are maybe ten pieces sporadically submitted during the last few years.

[Arkhan Asylum]

No need to use anything inferior when you could just convert to pcx though.

I'm not sure I would call PaintShopPro for example, inferior to Graphics Gale, and it really does help if you plan PCE palettes out ahead of time, especially when you're talking about multicolor backgrounds.

Otherwise you have to convert it with a utility and hope it does a good job. 

Sprites you can be a bit more sloppy with, at least.


Paint Programs That Support PCX, and seem to work nicely:

NeoPaint
PC Paintbrush
Grafx2
PaintShopPro
Photoshop (inverts the palettes because it's a dick)
Gimp (Can uninvert the palettes that photoshop screws up)

I prefer NeoPaint or PSP, myself.

[Siskan]

I'm not sure I would call PaintShopPro for example, inferior to Graphics Gale, and it really does help if you plan PCE palettes out ahead of time, especially when you're talking about multicolor backgrounds.

For the task in question, many of these are. I've tried basically everything I could find and one thing I've learned is that universal editors come with a lot of obstacles. In many cases I'd rather use an old version of MS Paint over these. Some editors which are very old benefit from their limitations, but the fact still is that they were designed for other techniques and that becomes evident in the end. Also, they don't support modern file types, which is what I want most of the time.

Also, as I've pointed out above, the way the line tool behaves in GraphicsGale really speeds up the process for me. So if the conversions take a few seconds, that's nothing compared to hours saved. I continuously try new software I come across though, but so far I've always missed some major features.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Well, Grafx2 was designed with demoscene pixel art in mind.   I'd suggest taking that one for a spin sometime.  It's all WYSIWYG, supports tons of file formats, and adheres to PCX palette stuff really well, which makes it really handy for PCE art.

The same goes for PSP, and I have a hard time believing that it's inferior to GraphicsGale. 

Same with NeoPaint.  That tool is pretty effective for the price.

Anyway,

The conversions of high-color backgrounds take a few seconds, with shades of gray.   You may not get what you want out of the conversion, especially if you're providing tiles for a multi-screen map.

So, you'd essentially be making more work for whoever is coding the game.

They already have the harder job, so why make it harder?

[Psycho Punch]

Photoshop (inverts the palettes because it's a dick)

I've found that if you invert the palette before saving it inverts the inverted palette which is the same as a normal palette. Pretty retarded fix but functional. It is good to reduce pictures to fewer colors.

By the way Arkhan, not to hijack the thread but does the PCX import on PCEAS writes all 255 colors on rom or just the first 16 when the 17~255 is only black/white? If yes is there any way to force the .incpal to import only the first 16 to rom?

[Lochlan]

By the way Arkhan, not to hijack the thread

Pretty sure Arkhan already hijacked the thread, lol.

Thanks for all the replies everyone, PMs incoming!

[Arkhan Asylum]

By the way Arkhan, not to hijack the thread but does the PCX import on PCEAS writes all 255 colors on rom or just the first 16 when the 17~255 is only black/white? If yes is there any way to force the .incpal to import only the first 16 to rom?

What PCX import?

If you use the palette stuff, it will successfully extract a dickload of palettes out of a high color PCX (each 16 becomes a palette),

but the problem you run into is associating said palettes with tiles on screen.  EACH tile has to be told what palette to use.

So, if you've just run a highcolor tileset through a convertor instead of planning what you're doing, making a BAT file can turn out to be a real bitch.

[spenoza]

If siskan has a tool he's happy with and prefers it to others, don't tell him he's wrong for using it. The actual art portion of pixel graphics is harder than palettes and formats. Those can be altered and fixed more easily than trying to hijack artistic talent. You have to start showing a little respect for others' choices sometimes. You don't have a monopoly on correctness and good sense.

[Arkhan Asylum]

If siskan has a tool he's happy with and prefers it to others, don't tell him he's wrong for using it. The actual art portion of pixel graphics is harder than palettes and formats. Those can be altered and fixed more easily than trying to hijack artistic talent.

My point is, not planning for indexed palettes ahead of time can shoot you in the foot.

It can create more work for you in the long run.  Relying on conversions isn't always ideal.  Especially when you're making high color images.  You can get away with half assing the planning when color counts are low, but the more you add, the less-safe it becomes.

I think Graphics Gale will at least let you make a BMP that uses indexed colors, so you can probably do that.  (Make it 256 colors or less).  It should at least convert to PCX reliably.  It might invert the palette, though.

I didn't say Siskan was wrong for using Graphics Gale.  Don't put words in my mouth.

I argued that I doubt OTHER programs are actually inferior to Graphics Gale.  Most notabley, Paint Shop Pro.  The only inferior part might be that they aren't free like Graphics Gale, which can help create a bit of bias.

and, since pixel art is the task at hand here, I would still argue that a program like Grafx2 is the best for the job, provided you want an Amiga experience.   It was designed for pixel art.

I'd also like to know where you're coming from claiming things can be altered/fixed easily.   Do you even do pixel art?   Screwing with pictures and redoing work is annoying and tedious. 

You have to start showing a little respect for others' choices sometimes. You don't have a monopoly on correctness and good sense.

Spare me the lame philosophical bullshit, Spenoza. 

This is people discussing various paint programs and basically pointing out the pros/cons.

It's not me trying to force someone to make new life choices.  If Siskan wants to keep using GraphicsGale, that's fine.  If he's used all of the programs I mentioned and decided he doesn't like them, that's fine too.

If he produces stuff that ends up being usable, even better.     If not, I told you so.

Though, one thing I do have is the experience of dealing with putting crap on the PCE for what, 5 years now?   

Consider it cautionary advice from someone who's been there/done that.

I have GraphicsGale, Pixie, Grafx2, Photoshop, Paintshop Pro, and NeoPaint all installed.

Once you tread into PCX territory, I find that Gfx2, PSP and Neopaint do the best job of letting you deal with palettes.

[VenomMacbeth]

I've never done pixel art, but I doodle spaceships & things all the damn time.  I need to figure out how to translate my art to pixels, as I'd love to collaborate on projects such as this.

[lord_cack]

.... I use MS Paint.... and what  ....

[NecroPhile]

Unlike that pussy Ark and his fancy 'computer' things, I use crayolas and big chief tablets. 

[Arkhan Asylum]

Unlike that pussy Ark and his fancy 'computer' things, I use crayolas and big chief tablets. 

you best be using the 500 color pack with the built in sharpener.  That's how all the real bitches roll.

[spenoza]

My point is, not planning for indexed palettes ahead of time can shoot you in the foot.

If that's the core point, why didn't you just say that up front instead of couching it in terms of attempts to push other programs?

I didn't say Siskan was wrong for using Graphics Gale.  Don't put words in my mouth.

Ummm... Your opening response to Siskan was...

Better learn a paint program that supports PCX, then!

If "you're using the wrong program" isn't what that explicitly meant, then what language are you communicating in, again?

This is people discussing various paint programs and basically pointing out the pros/cons.
...
It's not me trying to force someone to make new life choices.

No, you're not trying to force him, but you sure are trying REALLY hard to convince him (persistently, though not particularly successfully). Besides, this thread isn't about comparing various paint programs. It's Lochlan's thread soliciting an artist, and Siskan spoke up. If Lochlan wants PCE-ready art (rather than merely attractive pixel art to modify to PCE-ready status himself) let him and Siskan sort it out. You've already made yourself available for assistance. Let them come to you when they want/need it, not before.

Sometimes I like to eat my pie or cake with a spoon. I don't care if you like a fork better.

[Arkhan Asylum]

If that's the core point, why didn't you just say that up front instead of couching it in terms of attempts to push other programs?

Because sometimes, suggesting other programs is how people find new software to try out?...  If I just went with the ONE program I found instead of digging around and asking around, I'd still be using PC Paintbrush in DOSBox.    I'm sorry you have a problem with "oppression".

Ummm... Your opening response to Siskan was...

Congratulations.  You can't read.

That says "better learn a paint program that supports PCX".   That doesn't mean "The one you're using means you are wrong."

It means, jee, it would be good to know how to work one that can support PCX for various reasons including conversion and palette information. 

It doesn't mean "Stop what you're doing and abandon it forever.". 

You'll note, during the course of this discussion, that the inverted palette issue popped up and one way to work around it was suggested (by someone else, not me.).   So, again, this is a discussion.  People are talking about things.   If you don't like it, go read a different thread instead of being a boyscout.

If "you're using the wrong program" isn't what that explicitly meant, then what language are you communicating in, again?

English.  You just chose to read into it a certain way because you're always quick to go all PC boyscout during discussions that you think might be heated or whatever.  That's your problem.

No, you're not trying to force him, but you sure are trying REALLY hard to convince him (persistently, though not particularly successfully).

If you think that is persistence and hard effort, I question how much you pay attention to me on this forum.  This is normal.

Besides, this thread isn't about comparing various paint programs. It's Lochlan's thread soliciting an artist, and Siskan spoke up. If Lochlan wants PCE-ready art (rather than merely attractive pixel art to modify to PCE-ready status himself) let him and Siskan sort it out. You've already made yourself available for assistance. Let them come to you when they want/need it, not before.

Who says a topic can't diverge a little bit into another discussion?  You?   Fuck that.

The only person complaining is you, and you're going about it for the wrong reasons.

Sometimes I like to eat my pie or cake with a spoon. I don't care if you like a fork better.

This is a matter of "sometimes the fork might be upside down, or the tines might go the wrong way.  You should make sure you're aware and ready to deal with this issue.  Here are some suggestions that will help."


I mean, Siskan's workflow can go something like this:

Paint in graphics gale
Open in PaintShopPro or Grafx2
Save as PCX
Make sure palettes look like they are indexed right
Hand file to Lochlan
Insert into game
Success.

[Siskan]

I mean, Siskan's workflow can go something like this:

Paint in graphics gale
Open in PaintShopPro or Grafx2
Save as PCX
Make sure palettes look like they are indexed right
Hand file to Lochlan
Insert into game
Success.

Exactly. So there's no need to actually use these to create the pixel art in the first place. So I don't see why it's so important for you to have me change my ways. Sure, the initial pointers were appreciated but after that I got the impression that you tried to talk me over rather than explaining something I didn't know.

Also, I can see why you want to get your point through and all, but I see no point in making it such a big deal. Spenoza may or may not have read your words the way you intended, but he kept a good tone while I'm afraid you didn't. Better learn a new way of argumentation that supports a peaceful discussion climate. ; )

[NecroPhile]

Better learn a new way of argumentation that supports a peaceful discussion climate. ; )

Ha!  What is it with these can't-we-all-just-get-along people lately?  Did I wander into a hippie commune again; if so, where's all the nekkid womens of loose virtue?

[Arkhan Asylum]

Exactly. So there's no need to actually use these to create the pixel art in the first place. So I don't see why it's so important for you to have me change my ways. Sure, the initial pointers were appreciated but after that I got the impression that you tried to talk me over rather than explaining something I didn't know.

My talking over was more of me mostly just questioning the truth behind your statement of something like PSP being inferior to GraphicsGale.   There's a reason one costs money and one doesn't.  I've yet to see real reasons that back up the inferiority.

and yes, I'm not 100% suggesting you drop one paint program to use another.  You probably could, with some of the suggested programs, but that's not the point.

It just helps to be familiar with ones that actually support PCX.  Even if you're just opening a PCX, viewing the palette, possibly saving/editing a color, and then closing the program down.   Otherwise you'll be constantly fiddling with a file, running it through a convertor, and then seeing if the results are what you want. 

Also, I can see why you want to get your point through and all, but I see no point in making it such a big deal. Spenoza may or may not have read your words the way you intended, but he kept a good tone while I'm afraid you didn't. Better learn a new way of argumentation that supports a peaceful discussion climate. ; )

lol, what.

Welcome to PCEFX.  I'm Arkhan.  This is how I talk.

[Siskan]

and yes, I'm not 100% suggesting you drop one paint program to use another.

Well it sure seemed so judging by your later posts.

I should have been more clear about one thing though. I never really had any kind of conversion utility in mind. What I really meant was saving what I've used in a software supporting pcx, such as the ones you mentioned.

lol, what.

Welcome to PCEFX.  I'm Arkhan.  This is how I talk.

You probably don't care, but it sure would be nicer for most people (including yourself) if you had a friendlier attitude.

I personally dropped out of this software conversation because I wasn't interested in arguing with you. Then someone stepped in and to defend my cause and got some ugly feedback from you. So even if I'd rather not be involved, this still largely involves me. So think twice and show some consideration.

I came to this site to share my enthusiasm with other people and educating myself, not to end up being the subject of some bad tempered argument. Though seeing as NecroPhile's post seems to indicate it's strange to want a nice environment, I'm not sure I've come to the right place anymore.

[turboswimbz]

I'm not sure I've come to the right place anymore.

You seem like a good guy Siskan.   Don't take it to heart.  Sure you've come to the right place.  But you have to realize this place is more of a back ally than a main street at times.  This forum isn't like to many others.  It is not always nice here.  That's not to say it isn't full of some of the nicest damn people you'd ever want to meet, It means we are all VERY crazy.  All in our own way.

FOr instance Ark's like that crazy frat brother that is always right and telling you where to stick it.  But you gotta realize he means well most the time or is just joking.  Like the Frat Bro, he's also the first one next to you at the gym, saying "come on dude you got this".  NecroPhile on the other hand, is that wise guy in the corner just waiting for something to start so he can point out the stupidity or call ya out on something.  Anyway you look at it NecroPhile and the majority of us like the drama around here for sure. Keeps things fun and interesting, but we rarely mean it mean spirited.  Kinda like a locker room round here, we joke, we call people out on stuff, we even partake in flan,  And in all it keeps this place different from the other forums.
 
This most likely isn't a place to have a serious discussion on being nice, it'll just get shot down too easy as you taking things to seriously.  I understand what you're getting at, but I'm just pointing out that the best thing to do is to just end the conversation if you feel someone is acting inappropriate like you did before. 

But overall to my point, most of the folks here are great.  And I guess that's why I'm responding to your post Siskan, I love this offbeat little corner of vidya game-in. Yeah a few are a little more boisterous than others, but hey that's the great thing about the PCE, it brings many different people together to enjoy it.  I've learned a ton from NecroPhile, Ark, and the boisterous posters, I laugh with Tats and Estebans crazy and silly posts, and guys like BlueBMW, Chop5, Turboken, theSteve and so many more are so darn generous and helpful it'll all but kill ya.

[Siskan]

I'm not sure I've come to the right place anymore.

You seem like a good guy Siskan.   Don't take it to heart.  Sure you've come to the right place.  But you have to realize this place is more of a back ally than a main street at times.  This forum isn't like to many others.  It is not always nice here.  That's not to say it isn't full of some of the nicest damn people you'd ever want to meet, It means we are all VERY crazy.  All in our own way.

FOr instance Ark's like that crazy frat brother that is always right and telling you where to stick it.  But you gotta realize he means well most the time or is just joking.  Like the Frat Bro, he's also the first one next to you at the gym, saying "come on dude you got this".  NecroPhile on the other hand, is that wise guy in the corner just waiting for something to start so he can point out the stupidity or call ya out on something.  Anyway you look at it NecroPhile and the majority of us like the drama around here for sure. Keeps things fun and interesting, but we rarely mean it mean spirited.  Kinda like a locker room round here, we joke, we call people out on stuff, we even partake in flan,  And in all it keeps this place different from the other forums.
 
This most likely isn't a place to have a serious discussion on being nice, it'll just get shot down too easy as you taking things to seriously.  I understand what you're getting at, but I'm just pointing out that the best thing to do is to just end the conversation if you feel someone is acting inappropriate like you did before. 

But overall to my point, most of the folks here are great.  And I guess that's why I'm responding to your post Siskan, I love this offbeat little corner of vidya game-in. Yeah a few are a little more boisterous than others, but hey that's the great thing about the PCE, it brings many different people together to enjoy it.  I've learned a ton from NecroPhile, Ark, and the boisterous posters, I laugh with Tats and Estebans crazy and silly posts, and guys like BlueBMW, Chop5, Turboken, theSteve and so many more are so darn generous and helpful it'll all but kill ya. 

Thanks for taking you time. Well, I'm not really so fragile that I'm taking all this to heart and feeling all bad and so on, but I'm not entirely comfortable around it either. And I'm surely not here for drama just as well as I'm not the kind of guy who thinks it's funny when people are being rude (unless it's fiction).

[turboswimbz]

I understand that. And that is fine. In fact it's cool you are quite nice. I'm just saying don't let one bad experience take you away from here, small stuff like this happens all the time.  I like fellows like yourself.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Drama? lol, Where? 

This is normal stuff here. 

What you are taking as hostility isn't, really.   It's not going to impact me talking to spenoza later.   Especially if he shows up in person again at conventions.

I think, Siskan, that you're kinda just new here so you think we're all verbally abusive assholes trying to kill each other.

It's more like a bunch of siblings that call each other retard/douchebag/homo/asshole/etc. and then get on with life.

As far as I know, we weren't ever arguing. 

and I'm not sure who around here would think it'd be nicer if I suddenly start posting like I'm made out of cotton candy and unicorn piss.

[lord_cack]

It seems to me that every 6-9 months this sort of thing just runs crazy through the various threads across these forums.

Usually it does involve someone new getting into it with someone who has been around for awhile.

Also, and this is probably more of a side note, but ARK is usually involved. That is in no small part because he is very active here. But, he is probably the most difficult person to understand completely. But, from personal experience and from just what I have seen around here, he almost always is coming from a place of genuine concern. Especially when it comes to game development issues. His verbiage is sometimes a source of conflict but people really need to give it time. ALSO, he is generally a person who sniffs out BS when he sees it and doesn't just sweep it under the rug, I respect that 

Also, as the only person across ALL of these threads who has released more ACTUAL PCE titles than ANYONE else here, I think that his opinion on types of programs that work better should be taken as some rock solid advice.

My comment about MS Paint is true. The graphic work I did with Mysterious Song, Pyramid Plunder, and Jungle Bros. (along with others I have been working on) have ALL been done in MS Paint. Proving that it technically doesn't matter WHAT paint program you use. But, if I were to think about getting a better program, it would be one that supports the files natively. Since I don't know which ones do, it would be nice to have someone looking over my shoulder telling me, "Hey dude, that program works but, this one supports the type of file you will be using and will make things easier in the long run.".... and that seems to me is all that was said.

Either way, it really is whatever as it will pass and siskan I would just say to you that in general if you give it time, you will see that most of what happens here is less harsh that it can first seem. It does take a measure of skin thickness but considering, as far as I know we are mostly adults here.... even if we don't always act like it. But, if this place isn't your thing, that's OK too 

(maybe im wrong though..... Im sure someone can tell me I am hehe)

[OldMan]

maybe im wrong though..... Im sure someone can tell me I am

Ok. You're wrong

he graphic work I did ....have ALL been done in MS Paint.

Really ? You should try neo paint. It supports pcx files directly, has a similar interface, and (most importantly) we know how to convert things (without annoying pallette problems) from it to formats we can use. Especially useful when it comes to 100+ colors And the grid for marking 8x8 tiles helps too

[Tatsujin]

basically all what turboswimbz said

plus the fact, that you probably won't find any other forum that is so club oriented but such big-hearted, honest, deticated and loyal to something like peeps are here to the PCE/TG16.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Plus, in text(whether it be on forums, or texting from a phone) things can get lost in translation.  People can sound mad, sad, lofty, pushy, etc. when they don't mean to be, not to mention that every person is capable of taking it differently then the next.