TG16/PCE cd archives

[Ninja16608]

 

[ToyMachine78]

Any discounts for volume? I may be interested in getting approx 20 made. Also, what is the return policy? What if I receive a disk(s) that will not play or have some other issue affecting play?

[Ninja16608]

Any discounts for volume? I may be interested in getting approx 20 made. Also, what is the return policy? What if I receive a disk(s) that will not play or have some other issue affecting play?

Absolutely a discount would be in order, and as for returns that is fine too, you would have an option to either have another copy sent out (after I get the first one back) or a refund for that disk/s

[Ninja16608]

Also just to clarify, None of the images I use are from the net because most of them are bad. All the games I own I have ripped and have good images of them, I own a near complete cd collection for the system. If you have a game I don't have you may be out of luck unless you can rip it and send me the image (will be destroyed after copy is complete) And yes I do have a legit copy of Dracula X, I have been importing games for my TG16 for a long time as the jap versions that are not heavy text driven are imo better in most cases. Not to mention a lot of the Jap games never made it here for the cd system.

[Lochlan]

Wow, $5 CD-Rs.  Good scam!

[LostFlunky]

Is this for real or did you just copy/paste a post from Usenet circa 1999?

[NecroPhile]

Is this an April Fools joke?  Copyright law only allows personal copies to be made, not for profiting from the sale of copies.  Who are you trying to kid with this 'archive' bull?

P.S. - Spell out Japan in full or use JP.

[Ninja16608]

Before you go yelling about copyright laws you should read up on them first,

§ 117 . Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs54

(a) Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy.—Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:

(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or

(2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html

[bob]

you have dracula x?  a legit copy?  really?
most JP CDs never made it here? wow...really?  i wish there was a site or forum out there where experts in TG/PCE could hang out and share experiences.
so the ones that arent text heavy are better?  we never thought of that.  somebody should sticky a thread about which games are playable with little JP speaking/reading ability.

if this is an april fools joke, i admit...you got me.

[NecroPhile]

Personal archiving is just that: personal.  Copying your game for someone else to use is not allowed even if they own another original; they would have to mail you their original and you send back both the original and the copy for it to be legal.

Is it legal to sell backup copies of computer software (in online auctions or on website)? Is it legal to buy and use a backup copy of software I already own?

No. The Copyright Act does not permit anyone to sell backup copies to third parties separately from the original copy of the software. If you lawfully own a computer program, you may sell or transfer that lawful copy together with a lawfully made backup copy of the software, but you may not sell the backup copy alone.

We have been made aware of websites that are offering to sell "backup" copies of software via download over the Internet or in a custom-burned CD-R format, under the guise that section 117 permits this. Section 117 does NOT permit the sale of backup copies. Again, section 117 does not allow you to sell backup copies to someone else except when such backup copies are sold together with the original lawfully owned copy. It does not allow anyone to solely distribute "backup" copies to the public. In addition to being a violation of the exclusive right of distribution, such activity is also likely to be a violation of the terms of the license to the software. In many cases these sites appear to be a front for distribution of illegal copies, which is copyright infringement. You should be wary of sites that offer to sell you a backup copy.

And if you do buy an illegal backup copy, you will be engaging in copyright infringement if you load that illegal copy onto your computer, i.e., the unauthorized reproduction of the infringing computer program into memory. Lesson: if you want a backup copy of a lawfully owned computer program, back it up yourself.

Try again, clownshoes.

[Ninja16608]

I like clownshoes, they are funny

[PunkCryborg]

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?250197-Turbografx-16-PCEngine-back-up-disks

[Sparky]

not a member over there so its blocked... whats it say.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

not a member over there so its blocked... whats it say.

Basically the same thing that Ninja should be told by us members here.  Offering to sell CDrs of games is a no-no and it's highly recommended that you modify your first post and lock this thread.

You seem a decent fellow, but please do these 'favors' for people you know or friends (via PM) and refrain from making public posts like this. 

[Psycho Punch]

"You should post this at pcengine-fx.com, they may be more receptive there."

[OldRover]

...is this a joke? If it is, it's not a funny one, and if it's not a joke... dude... it's 2014... this shit is not only commonplace, it's fucking old-school nowadays. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together and a CD burner (which has been standard equipment on PCs for like the last 10 years) can make backups of their own discs that run fine on the real thing, especially on a forum like this where there are so many very knowledgeable people, not to mention people like myself, Arkhan, Bonknuts, TheOldMan, NightWolve, touko... people who know the special format left, right, backwards, upside-down, sideways, diagonal, and inserted into the anus of a forest boar carcass and served with toast. Something like this might have worked 15 years ago, when the internet was still relatively new and people didn't know any better.

[Ninja16608]

...is this a joke? If it is, it's not a funny one, and if it's not a joke... dude... it's 2014... this shit is not only commonplace, it's fucking old-school nowadays. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together and a CD burner (which has been standard equipment on PCs for like the last 10 years) can make backups of their own discs that run fine on the real thing, especially on a forum like this where there are so many very knowledgeable people, not to mention people like myself, Arkhan, Bonknuts, TheOldMan, NightWolve, touko... people who know the special format left, right, backwards, upside-down, sideways, diagonal, and inserted into the anus of a forest boar carcass and served with toast. Something like this might have worked 15 years ago, when the internet was still relatively new and people didn't know any better.

While all this is true, there are still people out there who can not do it.

[Keith Courage]

is this for CDRs or good professionnal pressed CDs?

[Ninja16608]

is this for CDRs or good professionnal pressed CDs?

I have looked into pressed cd's and the prices are fairly cheap. I'm just not sure if a pressing plant would handle a smaller order, I think 100 was a minimum I found and it was around a dollar a disk plain (no text on silver) and a little extra for printed surface that would have to be done.

[ToyMachine78]

Ive never tried to back up my games, but I do not have a PC to do it with anyway. Our house is completely tablets and mobile hardware. Besides I'm too damn lazy to take the time and trial and error to do it anyway. I'd rather spend that time playing with my kids or playing the actual game. Thats why i was interested.

On the other hand, I'm not down for being fined or prosecuted for a turbo game either. I'm just glad someone around here keeps up with the law regarding such things.

I think I'll go put on some Priest now.... Breakin' the law, Breakin' the law!

[OldMan]

Since Rover brought me up by name, I guess I'll put in my two cents....

While all this is true, there are still people out there who can not do it.

There are people who can't rob banks, either. Does that mean it's okay to do it for them?

As far as copyright law, yes you can make a complete backup copy, and it is legal.
My question is, how to you duplicate the unreadable tracks on a cd?
If you are producing a cd without that information, it is a derivative work (not a backup), and subject to prosecution.

As a developer, Yes I have talked to copyright lawyers about such things. It's amazing how many people
think that section grants them the right to produce copies, when its intent is to allow preservation of the software owners rights. You can only use the backup copy if/when the original is no longer useable. And it must be a 1-1 copy of the original.

Should you decide to provide this 'service', you should be aware that your client, purchasing your service, is also operating under the assumption that your sevice is a legal one, and will produce a correct backup. Should it not be so, you are liable for any damages, not your client. He was purchasing your service in good faith that you would produce a legal copy.


So my lawyer says....

[GohanX]

"You should post this at pcengine-fx.com, they may be more receptive there."

They see me trollin', they hatin'

[Bernie]

I see no monies coming your way...  Especially when folks like myself, will do this for the community for free.  Guess these are desperate times....

[Ninja16608]

I see no monies coming your way...  Especially when folks like myself, will do this for the community for free.  Guess these are desperate times.... 

It was never about the money, and no times are not desperate, I live quite comfy thank you. Seeing as how you do this for free just means you have more money than me, unfortunately I am not in a position where I can pay for cds (pressed or CDR), pay for mailing, etc. and if you do it for free then why are people still asking me about them? maybe they should talk to you. Yes I did come here on the suggestion of someone from another forum, I have been a member here for a long time (just reading) and I didn't think  it was a huge deal to make a mention that I knew how to do it and was willing to do for others like toymachine who in his case has no PC, and as far as TheOldMan says I'm not looking to cause legal troubles for anyone myself included, I'm no lawyer but reading that copyright section its seems that any "copy" holder of the copyright works can have one made and it does not have to be copied by the copyright owner?? Maybe I was mislead by the section 117?.

[Lochlan]

Times are not desperate, I live quite comfy thank you...I am not in a position where I can pay for cds (pressed or CDR), pay for mailing, etc.

Living in comfort, can't afford to mail CD-Rs.

I have been a member here for a long time (just reading)

Date Registered: April 09, 2013, 03:03:51 PM

This thread delivers!

[OldRover]

Well, that's almost a year, that's a long time by some measures.

[Ninja16608]

Times are not desperate, I live quite comfy thank you...I am not in a position where I can pay for cds (pressed or CDR), pay for mailing, etc.

Living in comfort, can't afford to mail CD-Rs.

I have been a member here for a long time (just reading)

Date Registered: April 09, 2013, 03:03:51 PM

This thread delivers!

Let me guess......umm your 29......um live in your parents basement....have no real bills of your own....and probably have no kids, wife, etc... am I close??? no that couldn't be it...

Lets see....I'm 39 two kids, two cars, two Harley's, a mortgage, car and bike insurance, oh here's a big one homeowners insurance, water bill, light bill, gas bill to heat my water and home, the list goes on...I am by no means a cheap ass but my real life comes first.

Hmmm

[Bernie]

Lol.

[Sparky]

I have more than my fair share of real life problems and I don't let comments from people I don't know get to me.

Hahaha..

[Lochlan]

Give in to your anger!

[Ninja16608]

Life is too short to get angry, If your looking for a fight thread go start one, you won't get it from me :-)

[HailingTheThings]

[NightWolve]

...is this a joke? If it is, it's not a funny one, and if it's not a joke... dude... it's 2014... this shit is not only commonplace, it's fucking old-school nowadays. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together and a CD burner (which has been standard equipment on PCs for like the last 10 years) can make backups of their own discs that run fine on the real thing, especially on a forum like this where there are so many very knowledgeable people, not to mention people like myself, Arkhan, Bonknuts, TheOldMan, NightWolve, touko... people who know the special format left, right, backwards, upside-down, sideways, diagonal, and inserted into the anus of a forest boar carcass and served with toast. Something like this might have worked 15 years ago, when the internet was still relatively new and people didn't know any better.

Heh-heh, yeah, agreed! 15 years ago there was Tru's ISO/CD-R Backup Business, selling any game you wanted at $5 bucks a pop on newsgroups and via his website. There was another known guy Kadamose, I believe, same thing after Tru. Back then, the CD-R burning failure rate was high, the CD-R recording software was finicky, the Internet was very, very slow via 56 kbps modems, so the market/demand was there to profit off of CD-R "backups" (AKA pirated copies).

Thing is, Ninja16608, it's almost pointless to market this as a service only if you can prove you own the original... People cared about this for the games that they did NOT own, but wanted!! Nowadays, with practically everything on the Internet, somewhere, if you look hard enough, and since we're way past the 56 kbps downstream days, these "backup" businesses got put out of business long time ago... For the most part anyway. I was apart of that after Tenchi-no-ryu founded a group called RIGG which taught you how to burn CD-Rs yourselves and offered the top PCE/TG-16 games free for download in RAR archives.

Now it's true, sometimes you do find a person that can't burn a CD-R themselves. It happens. I have had a handful of people over the years ask me to pre-patch Xak III and Ys IV with my English patches for them cause they failed to patch'n'burn a copy themselves. But given the rarity of the need, you couldn't establish something serious from it.

Anyway, call it hypocritical, but to publicly market a pirating service here in the forums is unwanted by the admin's wishes. That's the default PR distancing position. Now me personally, I feel that since the system is dead and NEC is out of the gaming business that the library has a level of de facto public domain status and I approve of copying so as many people get to enjoy these games. Especially since you have these insanely greedy profiteering nutjobs loose on eBay and here (like the barely literate wmac "Im...trust anal person" monagle - he disgusts me at this point). But, I also think that when you run a forum like that in principle, you attract [bad] members that are not worthwhile (or much worse) in my view and you put your forum hosting at risk, that is, if you were a pirating network in principle/general.

[NecroPhile]

I'm in the same boat, NW.  I gives no fucks if somebody wants to make a copy (unless it's homebrew), but this ain't the place to publicly offer copies for profit (however meager), and I can do without the self-righteous "It's legal!  Only if you already own it!" bullshit.

[ToyMachine78]

At what point do these games become Abandonware? There are plenty of old games from defunct developers and publishers? Obviously not all turbo/pce games fall into this category, as I'm sure publishers like Konami and Namco etc still protect their IP, but surely a good many do. Obviously this stuff isn't too enforced or there would not be so many ROM sites etc that are thriving.

[NecroPhile]

Abandonware just means it's out of print and no longer supported by the publisher; it doesn't mean rights have been relinquished, the copyright holder just doesn't give a shit.

Generally, copyrights expire 70 years after the creator's death or 95 years after first publication for anything that is done for hire.

[ToyMachine78]

Abandonware just means it's out of print and no longer supported by the publisher; it doesn't mean rights have been relinquished, the copyright holder just doesn't give a shit.

Generally, copyrights expire 70 years after the creator's death or 95 years after first publication for anything that is done for hire.

Well I echo your sentiments then. If the publisher/owner is out of business is just doesn't give two shits then why should we. Unless being a self righteous/pious rule follower makes you feel good about yourself.

I've always been a little antisocial personally. I guess its the punk/skater in me.

[ToyMachine78]

I think if everyone is gonna get their panties up their ass over this, then everyone using copyrighted artwork or images as their avatar pictures need to remove them or give credit in their signature.

Hell look at me. I use an active brand as my handle and their artwork all over the net. Here, Google, YTube, and EBay. I'm not really concerned that Ed Templeton is going to take legal action against me. Hell he would probably like advertisement.

[bob]

I don't even think it's in Ed's hands anymore.  Tod Swank may care more.

[ToyMachine78]

I don't even think it's in Ed's hands anymore.  Tod Swank may care more.

Oh yeah... I forgot they are a part of Tum Yeto now.

[NecroPhile]

Again, I don't think anyone here cares that much about the making of CDRs in and of itself.  It's his bullshit attitude about it being a "legal" service while he turns a small profit.

Besides, for what do you need archives of games you legitimately own?  It's not like the laser is going to wear them out, and it's not that hard to teach children boundaries.

[ToyMachine78]

Again, I don't think anyone here cares that much about the making of CDRs in and of itself.  It's his bullshit attitude about it being a "legal" service while he turns a small profit.

Besides, for what do you need archives of games you legitimately own?  It's not like the laser is going to wear them out, and it's not that hard to teach children boundaries.

I think its more of the game-pocalypse fear that at some unknown date in the future all retro games will be raptured up to game heaven, at which point they will degrade/delaminate or become corrupt and fail to work.

[Keith Courage]

I could definitely see this service being useful if it were for actual pressed copies of the games. I know I cringe anytime I take my Bonk 3 CD out of its case to play it because I'm so afraid of scratching or dropping it.

[Ninja16608]

It's his bullshit attitude about it being a "legal" service while he turns a small profit.

There was no bullshit attitude man, I really did think by reading the copyright laws 117 to be exact, that you could perform a backup for someone else. That is how it reads. It was also pointed out that they must be a 1-1 copy or they are not an archive. I'm curious as to why a copy would play without the error track/s would the system not look for them

[OldMan]

I'm not trying to take sides on the debate. I don't care if you offer to make backups. Really.
However, like some other people, it bothers me to hear people repeat the same mis-information over and over as justification for their actions.
<ie, Magical chase is worth $5000, because there are only 500 copies in existence.>

I really did think by reading the copyright laws 117 to be exact, that you could perform a backup for someone else.

Go back and read section 117 closely, with a lawyers eyes. There are only 2 cases when it is legal to make a backup copy, whether the owner does it or someone else is paid to do it:

1) If it is -essential- to the operations -of the program-.

My lawyer refers to this as the hard-drive clause; you can make a copy (ie, install to a hard drive or other medium) if it is required to use the program. More specifically, if the program runs fine from the supplied medium. you may -not- make a legal copy (not even copy to a hard drive). You must use the original medium.

2) It is an archive copy of the program.

This clause allows you to make (or cause to be made) backup, archive copies of programs. Many people believe this is what allows you to make copies for others; in a sense, this is true. You can hire someone to backup up all of your computers and it is legal - provided the copies meet the definitions of backup/archive copies. Which means they must be stored securely, and only used in the case of failure resulting in the loss of the original program. Even then, they may only be used to restore the computer to its original state.

I fail to see how a cdr copy of a game, that plays fine from a cd without installation, meets either of these clauses.

.....................
My other remark was more of a warning to you. Once you accept money for performing a service, you have certain legal requirements. One of those is that you must make sure the copies you provide are legal copies. That means lots of paperwork and verification to make sure they are stored correctly (generally under lock-and-key for backups) and not used in violation of the law. Should you fail to provide such proof, -YOU- are liable for any damages, not the person receiving the copies. Any profits could quickly evaporate under even a single copyright suit - not to mention your house, car, etc.
...................
As for the need of a 1-1 copy for backup? It's an easy way to prove whether a copy is a legitimate backup or not. If information is missing, by definition the copy is -not- a backup. It's an easy way to prove whether or not the copy was produced "in a lawful manner".  Note that this does not mean you have to have a direct copy of the original discs; it is possible to make a 1-1 copy of software installed to a hard drive, provided -all- information from an original installation is preserved.
For the record, a company I used to work for often embedded information in unused sectors on a disc, via a program they wrote, just to detect whether people were making copies of their software.
The software would install and run fine; but if the signature/serial was not present on the disc when the sotware was installed, it would e-mail the company with information about where it was installed, and when. Many companies rushed to buy extra licenses when they were informed about their copies being leaked to employees for home use

Just fyi: as was explained to me, the 'derivate work' clause essentially means you may alter user-editable files (ie, configuration files) and still have a legitimate copy.
...............
As for everyone shouting 'abandonware': Legally, someone still owns the rights to the software. Living in the era of patent trolls and blanket lawsuits over music sharing, I can easily picture a day when some bright person puts together a company that buys the rights to out-of-print games, for pennies in many cases, and then proceeds to sue everyone who has ever made a copy and distributed it.
Filing a lawsuit is cheap. Even if the company only wins 1% of their cases, they will make a profit - and that's the actual intent of the company. If they can get people to settle out of court, even for $10, that's probably more than they paid for the rights in the first place. Multiply that by the number of sites offering roms, and by the number of roms they distribute. It's all profit for them. And disaster for those who get caught. By offering to make many copies cheaply, you'll be one of the first in their sites.

Finally, remember copyrights last a long time. 30 years from now, some one could decide to sue you over a breach made now. Their proof? Let's check the WayBack machine, or the internet archives....

'Nuff said.

[bob]

So if i wanted to purchase a copy and use it as a frisbee, essentially, thats illegal right?

[Ninja16608]

I'm not trying to take sides on the debate. I don't care if you offer to make backups. Really.
However, like some other people, it bothers me to hear people repeat the same mis-information over and over as justification for their actions.
<ie, Magical chase is worth $5000, because there are only 500 copies in existence.>

I really did think by reading the copyright laws 117 to be exact, that you could perform a backup for someone else.

Go back and read section 117 closely, with a lawyers eyes. There are only 2 cases when it is legal to make a backup copy, whether the owner does it or someone else is paid to do it:

1) If it is -essential- to the operations -of the program-.

My lawyer refers to this as the hard-drive clause; you can make a copy (ie, install to a hard drive or other medium) if it is required to use the program. More specifically, if the program runs fine from the supplied medium. you may -not- make a legal copy (not even copy to a hard drive). You must use the original medium.

2) It is an archive copy of the program.

This clause allows you to make (or cause to be made) backup, archive copies of programs. Many people believe this is what allows you to make copies for others; in a sense, this is true. You can hire someone to backup up all of your computers and it is legal - provided the copies meet the definitions of backup/archive copies. Which means they must be stored securely, and only used in the case of failure resulting in the loss of the original program. Even then, they may only be used to restore the computer to its original state.

I fail to see how a cdr copy of a game, that plays fine from a cd without installation, meets either of these clauses.

.....................
My other remark was more of a warning to you. Once you accept money for performing a service, you have certain legal requirements. One of those is that you must make sure the copies you provide are legal copies. That means lots of paperwork and verification to make sure they are stored correctly (generally under lock-and-key for backups) and not used in violation of the law. Should you fail to provide such proof, -YOU- are liable for any damages, not the person receiving the copies. Any profits could quickly evaporate under even a single copyright suit - not to mention your house, car, etc.
...................
As for the need of a 1-1 copy for backup? It's an easy way to prove whether a copy is a legitimate backup or not. If information is missing, by definition the copy is -not- a backup. It's an easy way to prove whether or not the copy was produced "in a lawful manner".  Note that this does not mean you have to have a direct copy of the original discs; it is possible to make a 1-1 copy of software installed to a hard drive, provided -all- information from an original installation is preserved.
For the record, a company I used to work for often embedded information in unused sectors on a disc, via a program they wrote, just to detect whether people were making copies of their software.
The software would install and run fine; but if the signature/serial was not present on the disc when the sotware was installed, it would e-mail the company with information about where it was installed, and when. Many companies rushed to buy extra licenses when they were informed about their copies being leaked to employees for home use

Just fyi: as was explained to me, the 'derivate work' clause essentially means you may alter user-editable files (ie, configuration files) and still have a legitimate copy.
...............
As for everyone shouting 'abandonware': Legally, someone still owns the rights to the software. Living in the era of patent trolls and blanket lawsuits over music sharing, I can easily picture a day when some bright person puts together a company that buys the rights to out-of-print games, for pennies in many cases, and then proceeds to sue everyone who has ever made a copy and distributed it.
Filing a lawsuit is cheap. Even if the company only wins 1% of their cases, they will make a profit - and that's the actual intent of the company. If they can get people to settle out of court, even for $10, that's probably more than they paid for the rights in the first place. Multiply that by the number of sites offering roms, and by the number of roms they distribute. It's all profit for them. And disaster for those who get caught. By offering to make many copies cheaply, you'll be one of the first in their sites.

Finally, remember copyrights last a long time. 30 years from now, some one could decide to sue you over a breach made now. Their proof? Let's check the WayBack machine, or the internet archives....

'Nuff said.

Very nice explanation, that does shed a lot of light on the subject. I have always understood that the reason a back up copy was made, was to be used so as to not ruin the original?? Am I mis-informed/under informed?

After thought: So it is a safe bet that this would also go for pressed disks as well? The only reason I ask is I don't know if a pressing house has any special pull, or they just don't ask and don't tell? I have heard of games being pressed here in other forums and wonder if it was successful or not.

[Bernie]

Most your pressings like those take place over in Asia, where they gives no shits. We have actually entertained the idea of doing something like that before with some of the higher priced games, a bootleg version.  . But....it has not happened yet....YET....

[Ninja16608]

Most your pressings like those take place over in Asia, where they gives no shits. We have actually entertained the idea of doing something like that before with some of the higher priced games, a bootleg version.  . But....it has not happened yet....YET....

Yes, that would be cool, but if I'm not mistaken being caught with them would hold the same penalties? Especially a bootleg, due to the code being modified? I'm not lawyer but TheOldMan made it pretty easy to understand lol. As I said before I'm not looking for legal troubles now or in the future, but if there is a legal way to do it I would be all in.

[ToyMachine78]

Most your pressings like those take place over in Asia, where they gives no shits. We have actually entertained the idea of doing something like that before with some of the higher priced games, a bootleg version.  . But....it has not happened yet....YET....

You know my Mother thought about doing a China pressed bootleg once.... Once!!