If only the PCE was an SFC

[CrackTiger]

Don't you wish you could hear what PCE music would sound like if it didn't have a shitty 8-bit NES sound chip?

If Hudson hadn't wasted the game on a dead system, it could have sounded like this on the legendary SNES:

For those who are interested in having their ears bleed from bleep bloops, here's the Turbo/PCE version, recorded from real actual hardware:

https://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/7.mp3

[CrackTiger]

Dat reverb!

[mac]

Don't you wish you could hear what PCE music would sound like if it didn't have a shitty 8-bit NES sound chip?

If Hudson hadn't wasted the game on a dead system, it could have sounded like this on the legendary SNES:

Think I have heard better farts

[ishiyakazuo]

I just played the two tracks over each other... pretty effin' weird.
They both have their charms, I think.

[SuperGrafx]

I have to say, there's a certain charm about PCE chiptunes. 
With that in mind, I prefer the PCE version of the track.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Holy hell, that's horrible!  I feel like I have heard much better SNES renditions of PCE tunes, but, still, I like the warmer feel of both the Turbo & NES, over the SNES.  There are some fantastic soundtracks on SNES, so don't mistake me, Actraiser is one of my fave's.

[imparanoic]

surely, red book audio on pc engine super cd rom is much better than chip generated snes music, for example Dracula/castlevania rondo of blood vs vampire kiss or castlevania 4

[esteban]

surely, red book audio on pc engine super cd rom is much better than chip generated snes music, for example Dracula/castlevania rondo of blood vs vampire kiss or castlevania 4

Chiptunes4eva.

Red Book = cheatin'

[seieienbu]

Obviously the SNES Dracula X soundtrack doesn't compare with Rondo's CD audio.  That being said, I always liked the Dracula X soundtrack on the SNES; it does very well considering its limitations.

The SNES sound chip sounds very good in many games.  This Soldier Blade SNES rendition obviously doesn't rank among them.

[NecroPhile]

Holy shit, that is horrible!

[Opethian]

can you do soldier blade on the genny sound hardware? I want to hear the brown.

[ishiyakazuo]

surely, red book audio on pc engine super cd rom is much better than chip generated snes music, for example Dracula/castlevania rondo of blood vs vampire kiss or castlevania 4

Chiptunes4eva.

Red Book = cheatin'

Truth!  And seriously, you can't even say that Castlevania IV didn't rock ALL your genitalia off (both in music and in game) the first time you played it.

[pixeljunkie]

I actually expected to hit play and go, "that wasn't that bad...just different."


But nope, that's terrible. I never liked the SNES sound/music anyway. Most games seemed to always sound the same.

as far as music goes:

PCE>Gen>SFC

[BlueBMW]

It sounds like Mega Man X instruments but almost like they're off a bit or something....  Maybe muffled or something.  Seems like the sounds should be a little sharper.  Listening to that and then Storm Eagle's stage music...  yeah somethings not right.

[Joe Redifer]

I don't know why Hudson and NEC made the crappy PC Engine when they could have made the glorious SNES instead. They're so stupid. The PC Engine is like a NES only more NES-like than the NES. How crappy that system is. Everyone should hate it as soon as they can.

The TurboGrafx-16 kicks all sorts of ass, though.

[CrackTiger]

It sounds like Mega Man X instruments but almost like they're off a bit or something....  Maybe muffled or something.  Seems like the sounds should be a little sharper.  Listening to that and then Storm Eagle's stage music...  yeah somethings not right.

Did you listen to Storm Eagle's stage from a recording off of real hardware? SNES emulators enhance the audio, which has lead to a generation of hip young "8-bitters" believing that the SNES actually sounds that way.

[ishiyakazuo]

I don't know why Hudson and NEC made the crappy PC Engine when they could have made the glorious SNES instead.

FINALLY!  Someone gets it!

... But seriously though, I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the PC Engine was originally pitched to Nintendo to be a successor to the Famicom, and Nintendo basically told them to shove it, because Famicom was still insanely popular at the time.  Sounded like they also intended PCE to be somewhat backwards compatible with Famicom when they originally designed it, but it took a different turn after Nintendo shunned them.
Soooo... maybe if Nintendo had jumped on that, it WOULD be called Super Famicom.
Wish I could find that article now...

[ccovell]

It sounds like Mega Man X instruments but almost like they're off a bit or something....  Maybe muffled or something.  Seems like the sounds should be a little sharper.  Listening to that and then Storm Eagle's stage music...  yeah somethings not right.

The instruments sound off-key, that's most likely.

Also, tracked music that uses samples from systems (ie: SNES/Gen) usually don't include pitch bends, filters, or flanging that the original games used, so these re-makes often sound a bit flat.

[Digi.k]

I've recently come to appreciate Cyber Core's chip tunes. Lots of deep bass in them. So many games have PSG tracks that fail to exploit the low frequencies... such a shame.

Those low frequencies tho when I hear them...

[VenomMacbeth]

can you do soldier blade on the genny sound hardware? I want to hear the brown.

Stand by, I'm working on City of Death (stage 3) in Thunder Force 4 synths.

[SamIAm]

Why is it that this thread reminds me of this Chris Rock bit?

Hmm...

[spenoza]

In defense of this horrible track, it appears that someone just took a MIDI version of the game music and applied a Megaman X soundfont to it. I'm not sure you can sabotage such an effort much worse than that.

[ClodBusted]

I think the Turbo is able to deliver good chip generated music if done by talented people. Gradius, Salamander and R-Type are very faithful to their Arcade versions. Bomberman 94 is just pure joy for the ears. I've got mixed feelings for Blazing Lazers' music, though.

The Turbo's Redbook audio can be nice if accompanied by good sound effects.



SNES' music is a hit-and-miss. Some games have outstanding music that couldn't have be done anywhere else without redbook (Terranigma comes to my mind), while there are still lots of games with boring or even really bad sounding music.


I have no clue of the Genesis' music capabilities aside from Sonic 1 & 2, Rocket Knight Adventures and Jurassic Park.

[shubibiman]

The PCE soundchip is perfect as it actually is. I'm not fond of the SNES soundchip. Sounds like shit. So I might say it's a soundshit :p

[esteban]

In defense of this horrible track, it appears that someone just took a MIDI version of the game music and applied a Megaman X soundfont to it. I'm not sure you can sabotage such an effort much worse than that.

Yes. I hardly think we can judge SNES by this.

It would be like using Rastan Saga II as the only representation of the PCE/TG-16's sound capabilities.

[CrackTiger]

In defense of this horrible track, it appears that someone just took a MIDI version of the game music and applied a Megaman X soundfont to it. I'm not sure you can sabotage such an effort much worse than that.

Yeah, that's supposed to be a given. The instrument sounds aren't being used the way they were intended, they aren't matched to the music very well and the recording doesn't sound good. Yet straight SNES conversions of other consoles' music seems fairly popular.

But too many of these kinds of poorly conceived quick conversions get way too much praise and in SNES vs Genesis sound debates in Nintendo zealot circles, stuff like this is posted as proof that everything sounds better on SNES.

[o.pwuaioc]

Did you listen to Storm Eagle's stage from a recording off of real hardware? SNES emulators enhance the audio, which has lead to a generation of hip young "8-bitters" believing that the SNES actually sounds that way.

It sounds just fine on real hardware.

[CrackTiger]

Did you listen to Storm Eagle's stage from a recording off of real hardware? SNES emulators enhance the audio, which has lead to a generation of hip young "8-bitters" believing that the SNES actually sounds that way.

It sounds just fine on real hardware.

Although I'm a fan of the Mega Man X soundtrack due to nostalgia alone and appreciate that they went for more of a metal style, people love to trash the sound of the first MMX game. I don't care how many farts and sharts are in the game, I like most of the compositions and the sounds suit the overall style of the game.

While emulation sounding different is a separate issue (*try listening to Drac XX's "Vampire Killer" on youtube), you can still hear each instrument from that Soldier Blade cover in the MMX music and the difference between polished emulation sound and real hardware is that real hardware sounds more like that cover.

[esteban]

Did you listen to Storm Eagle's stage from a recording off of real hardware? SNES emulators enhance the audio, which has lead to a generation of hip young "8-bitters" believing that the SNES actually sounds that way.

It sounds just fine on real hardware.

Although I'm a fan of the Mega Man X soundtrack due to nostalgia alone and appreciate that they went for more of a metal style, people love to trash the sound of the first MMX game. I don't care how many farts and sharts are in the game, I like most of the compositions and the sounds suit the overall style of the game.

While emulation sounding different is a separate issue (*try listening to Drac XX's "Vampire Killer" on youtube), you can still hear each instrument from that Soldier Blade cover in the MMX music and the difference between polished emulation sound and real hardware is that real hardware sounds more like that cover.

I would love a few videos/or mp3's that showcase the "real hardware" vs. emulation.

For example, a billion years ago, there was a short comparison (.mp3) of a PSG tune from Tengai Makyo.  It was interesting to hear the differences.

 

[PukeSter]

Some SNES games sound great, especially MegaMan X.

But dear lord, those MegaMan X instruments killed the song. >

[imparanoic]

I don't know why Hudson and NEC made the crappy PC Engine when they could have made the glorious SNES instead. They're so stupid. The PC Engine is like a NES only more NES-like than the NES. How crappy that system is. Everyone should hate it as soon as they can.

The TurboGrafx-16 kicks all sorts of ass, though.

Super famicom was released in November 1990, PC engine was released in October 1987 ( by comparison, Master system ( mark 3) was released 2 years prior to pc engine) ,

3 years is long period of time, performance and technology over 3 years would increase several folds, it's compare super famicom to a PSX (ps1) which was released 4 years ( Oct 1994) after SFC and how much of performance difference between both systems, same logic can be applied to Sega Dreamcast compared to PSX(ps1) which was released 4 years later

a simple comparsion like that is a bit unfair.

[SamIAm]

I agree in a sense, but comparisons are inevitable since the two systems were in competition for a certain period.

Now, I have no intention of using this to argue one system over the other, but I think the Bomberman games give an enlightening perspective on the audio of the SNES and PCE. Many of the basic melodies are the same, for one thing. For another, Hudson put real effort into them, and it shows. The first two Super Bomberman games sound dull, but by the third, they had gotten the hang of it.

(The following are all the same songs.)

Super Bomberman 3 (via SPC, 32khz sample rate):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/muthmi0k9tjtg8e/1-1.%20Super%20Bomberman%203.mp3?dl=0
Bomberman PCE (via HES):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lcaloito7ffpfbh/1-2.%20Bomberman%20PCE.mp3?dl=0

Super Bomberman 3 (enhanced with 44.1khz sound):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j07jtpcr6if7szj/1-3.%20Bomberman%203%20SNES%20Enchanced.mp3?dl=0


Super Bomberman 3 (unenhanced):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kyrhm55xlx17yvw/2-1.%20Super%20Bomberman%203.mp3?dl=0
Bomberman 93:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ptjxjqpwtxwqw83/2-2.%20Bomberman%2093.mp3?dl=0


Super Bomberman 4 (unenhanced):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/olqg1o6ib8g7g2b/3-1.%20Super%20Bomberman%204.mp3?dl=0
Bomberman 94 (HES):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bumei7d6togbtv9/3-2.%20Bomberman%2094.mp3?dl=0


Also, here is the official OST rip of the title screen of Magical Chase, preceded by a HES version:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h9y7shn7ws80ita/4-1.%20Magical%20Chase%20-%20HES.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cyr1tesd9le3d6a/4-2.%20Magical%20Chase%20-%20OST.mp3?dl=0

I remember comparing the OST to the real game when it came out, and they're very close.


By the way, I used to compare the sound of SPC (emulated SNES sound) to the real thing. If you adjust the settings in your SPC player to be close to the real thing, particularly the sample rate, it's pretty similar. I used a real system, but you can judge for yourself by using an official CD soundtrack.

Unenhanced SPC:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/30c36igosuvd5nw/5-1.%20Corridors%20of%20Time%20-%20SPC.mp3?dl=0
OST rip:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9s4s76mhqd555gb/5-2.%20-%20Corridors%20of%20Time%20-%20OST.mp3?dl=0

EDIT: I might as well add the enhanced SPC if anyone is interested.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7p5w2f7m0tpjcii/5-3.%20-%20Corridors%20of%20Time%20-%20Enhanced.mp3?dl=0


Finally, to my ear anyway, Genesis music seems to get the most drastic boost from emulation enhancement. I'll see if I can track down a good rip from a real system for comparison.

VGM rip at 44.1khz:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wu1hmcpy2d4qjzv/6-1.%20Wave%20131%20VGM.mp3?dl=0

Direct rip:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2akg75i5kwfy4w6/6-2.%20Wave%20131%20Rip.mp3?dl=0

[Joe Redifer]

Depends on the Genesis. Sounds like a bad model 2 or maybe a model 1 VA7 you have there for your direct rip.

Never use OST released to just a console's sound quality. Quite often the OST will add unneeded bullshit like reverb or echo and other idiotic effects. I can say, though, that your SPC player sounds awful. I just compared your Chrono Trigger SPC recording with mine that was recorded using a real-life SNES system. The SPC sounds very shrill. The OST actually sounds pretty much like the SNES version.

[SamIAm]

The guy who ripped the Genesis track did it with a VA6.

SOURCE: Modded Model 1 Sega Genesis - Unamplified audio signal from VA6 motherboard
AUDIO CAPTURE HARDWARE: Amplified by FiiO E6, captured by Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1 Pro
AUDIO CAPTURE SOFTWARE: Audacity 2.0.3

Yeah, the SPC player I'm using isn't very good at simulating a real SNES; it's just got the best hi-fi options. On the other hand, there's an SPC plugin for winamp that I used to have long ago that nobody seems to use anymore since it didn't have 44.1khz playback. It only had 32khz, which is what the real system used. It sounded very good.

I'm at work now and I only have dollar store ear beads to listen with, but I'll look into this more deeply later.

But the Chrono Trigger and Magical Chase OSTs are basically straight rips, and I think they're OK to use for comparison.

[SamIAm]

Here we go. Compare this direct rip of Soldier Blade Operation 3 to the HES version, and you can hear my single biggest beef with the format: drums get screwed up a lot. Listen at 0:25.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cysia232mui05oe/7-1.%20Operation%203%20HES.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vmq7v4guxfo0j69/7-2%20Operation%203%20Rip.mp3?dl=0

Also, I added an enhanced SPC file for the original/emulation comparison above. In addition, I think that I figured out why my first SPC rips sounded so bad. The original SNES uses Gaussian interpolation, so my SPC player defaults to Gaussian when choosing "Like the SNES" mode. However, in emulation, this winds up sounding a little strange for some reason. I used cubic interpolation together with 32khz sampling and re-ripped everything, and updated all the "unenhanced" files I uploaded before accordingly. It's much closer to the real thing now.

[Joe Redifer]

I like listening to stuff on the actual hardware (or recordings made from them). I don't like the emulated sounds. I can play SPCs on my SNES and with a bit of work making them into ROMs, VGMs on my Genesis. HES will also play on the Turbo if you rename them from .hes to .pce and play them from the Turbo Everdrive. Unfortunately only part of the PCE library has been made to HES. Would love some giant ROM that has the chiptunes from all games (CDs included) on it with a text GUI so we know what we're listening to. NSFs can't be played on real hardware yet to my knowledge.

[SamIAm]

!!

.hes files will play in a real system with an Everdrive!?

Damn, I might have to try my hand at ripping the Aldynes soundtrack. That drum issue I mentioned is audible in nearly every track. It's a shame, because it's one of my favorite PCE games and soundtracks.

This might sound like sacrilege, but I like the sound of the VGM format for Genesis at 44.1khz more than I like the real hardware. I've used most of the models out there, but I like how bright VGM sounds. Plus, it led me to the discovery that my favorite Genesis song, Hydrocity Zone Act 2, sounds better if you slow it down a little.

Or a lot.

[esteban]

SamIAm: I will be listening/comparing these different files this weekend. Thank you posting all of the comparisons.

 

[ccovell]

Unfortunately only part of the PCE library has been made to HES. Would love some giant ROM that has the chiptunes from all games (CDs included) on it with a text GUI so we know what we're listening to. NSFs can't be played on real hardware yet to my knowledge.

That's a good idea, and I've dreamt of it too...  maybe some distant future project.

And the NES PowerPak has an NSF playing mapper, so they can be played on real hardware.

[NecroPhile]

Thanks for sharing the tunes, sam.

Super Bomberman 3 (via SPC, 32khz sample rate)

This one sounds like shit, with way too much reverb/echo, but the other two tracks sound okay compared to the PCE originals.  I wouldn't say they're better, though, just different.

[SamIAm]

^^^Really? I like that one first one the best out of those three. Sure it has a lot of reverb, and sure the SNES has a lot of games where the audio programmers got carried away with reverb, but I think that track uses it well. It's got a very nice bass, too.

Here's another example of why HES kind of bums me out. The first stage of Legendary Axe has a white-noise percussion effect going on, and in HES, it gets considerably amplified. It's grating, and it's hard to hear the melody.

HES:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jh6dj66k96s2jii/9-1.%20Legendary%20Axe%20-%20Rip.mp3?dl=0

Direct rip:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/15lrzbwb4ungu8c/9-2.%20Legendary%20Axe%20-%20HES.mp3?dl=0

[ccovell]

Perhaps it's not the HES' fault, but the player?  (Like WinAmp plugin, etc?)  Perhaps it's because the Turbo sound hardware uses logarithmic volume, while PC sound card DACs use linear?  Just a theory.

[SamIAm]

Yeah, I should have been more specific. It's most likely the player itself that's causing the problem. AFAIK, I'm using the best player available.

On the other hand, even some emulators are more accurate. It should be possible to use the renaming trick for HES files to get very clean rips from emulators.

[esteban]

I am finally listening to the goodness! Yay weekend!


My thoughts to follow...

[spenoza]

I confess that I am very impressed with those two SFC Bomberman tracks. I actually kinda like them a little better than the PCE versions. They are not overly laden with reverb and other SNES trickery and are better straight tracks.

Also, it DOES sound like they're playing with the equalizer a little on the Magical Chase OST track. It sounds a little better, with the bass boosted a little, over the original hardware.

[SamIAm]

I confess that I am very impressed with those two SFC Bomberman tracks. I actually kinda like them a little better than the PCE versions. They are not overly laden with reverb and other SNES trickery and are better straight tracks.

Also, it DOES sound like they're playing with the equalizer a little on the Magical Chase OST track. It sounds a little better, with the bass boosted a little, over the original hardware.

Which two did you like? There were three SNES Bomberman tracks. I'm curious if I'm alone in liking the first one.

Also, you might be right about some equalization being applied to Magical Chase. I still haven't compared it to a real console, but the stereo separation seems slightly different in the OST. It would be nice to get a proper direct rip of this game.

By the way, there's a dude on the ffshrine forums who has been making lots of quality direct rips, which I've been pilfering for this thread.
http://forums.ffshrine.org/f72/iron-goats-console-audio-soundtracks-master-list-174131/

[cr8zykuban0]

I gotta go with the pc engine music better. the snes version just sounds bad and distorted a bit.

[spenoza]

Which two did you like? There were three SNES Bomberman tracks. I'm curious if I'm alone in liking the first one.

The second two. The first one was an interesting mix, and I think they did some creative things with it, but I just didn't find to be any better to listen to.

[SamIAm]

Well, esteban? Any thoughts.

[esteban]

I have a lot to say. 

Unfortunately, I am so p@ssed off at my crappy hosting service (for tg-16.com) that I can't think straight.



My thoughts on topic....pending...