Favorite Valis game?

[esteban]

I was surprised to learn the original Valis story (for Famicom) is just as wacky as the ad copy for Genesis Valis I:

https://archives.tg-16.com/EGM/EGM_1992_03_065.jpg


Totally wacky. Read that story.

[Spooky]

On a side note, I've been revisiting the various computer versions of Valis II over the past couple days. Man, what wasted potential. I may have been a bit too harsh by labeling them "unplayable", but those controls are absolutely insufferable, especially in the X68000 port.

Shame too, as there's some great gameplay ideas there, and I must concur with Supes that the style and atmosphere of the PC Valis II's are unrivaled. If they'd combined the best parts of each port, like say... the graphical style of the MSX2, the soundtrack and comparative smoothness of the PC-98, and the cutscenes & balanced difficulty of the X68K, I'd put it above those snoozefests Valis IV and Valis II PCE easily. As it is, it's just a missed opportunity... 

I think "missed opportunity" sums up the computer Valis II game very well, though I think it still ranks towards the top for me. It has the most interesting ideas and level designs (having finally played all the main PC-Engine titles), the best soundtrack, and as you said the best story. Unfortunately, the awful jumping and weird janky enemy movement and glitches hamper what could have been an action game to remember (for all the right reasons).

I wouldn't even call the Sharp port unplayable, just it took a hell of a lot of time to get used to, after many, many deaths on the first stage before I understood how its jumping worked. Thank goodness for emulators and savestates.

Haha, true that! There's no way I'd even get past stage 2 in the X68000 version without savestating like hell. Shame they dropped the ball so bad there... finally a system that could actually handle the auto-scrolling sections well, and yet the handling and jump physics are infinitely better on the PC-98. Go figure.

I really should get around to finishing X68000 Valis II. Though I prefer the music of the PC-88/98, and the 8-bit style is a bit more fitting over the technically superior X68k graphics, they did get rid of some BS moments (like the earthquake during the Stage 1 boss' intro), and apparently they truncated the length of the more boring levels, so I could see it becoming my favorite version overall if I manage to get used to its controls.

This thread inspired me to play Valis III on both PCE and Mega Drive to see some differences. During the 1st level the controls sent me into a pit nearly 6-7 times in the Mega Drive version. The PCE version sent me into a pit about 3 times. I think the game obviously feels better on PCE.

Trust me, you just need to play the MD version more. It's noticeably more responsive.

Try spamming power slide in the PCE. Now spam it on the MD. Tell me which has less recovery.

Try using the high jump to grab those power-ups at the very top of the screen in the forest level of the PCE. Now try grabbing them in the MD. Tell me which one you have better luck with.

Try spamming sword slash on the crystal when you rescue Valna in the PCE. Now on the MD. Tell me which sword slash comes out faster, etc...

[esteban]

Spooky, this is the problem! You're spamming. You should play with precision.

I'm only half-joking: spamming in some games, like Vigilante, reveals lack of skill. The game was designed to use variable-speed nunchaku/punches. Lots of goofballs use auto-fire on high, but they are fools. Same for Monster Lair, many weapons are designed for long-press or variable-speed.

My point is: don't use spamming as a test. Designers intentionally balance the gameplay.

You are entitled to have you preferences.

I love this discussion.

[roflmao]

I'd love it if these forums had a "thumbs up" or "+1" thing for posts. You'd get one here, este.

[EmperorIng]

To be fair, you just sit there and whack the crystal. No need for finesse.

[roflmao]

Whacking the crystal is a given.

[ClodBusted]

Isn't the Demon Lord called Loveless instead of "Rogles"?

[esteban]

I just want to state again:

Spooky gets my utmost respect for actually talking about the nitty gritty of the Valis games.





DIFFERENT SUB-TOPIC:
If you read the comments for the Valis commercial/promo video Gredler linked to, you'll notice that someone mentions a ROM hack to make the Famicom Valis more playable.

(1) I have not tried it, but even with a ROM jack, I have my doubts as to how much fun Famicom Valis could be. Of course, I hope I am 100% wrong

(2) Would superdeadite (or anyone) know about a hacked/modified version of X68000 Valis II that offers a different control scheme?

(3) is it fair to say that, in general, the console versions stay true to the original PC story lines? Obviously, I am not expecting you to pick up on subtle nuances that are different, but rather, major plot points.

[Spooky]

Thank you, glad to be of service! 

(2) Would superdeadite (or anyone) know about a hacked/modified version of X68000 Valis II that offers a different control scheme?

If superdeadite links me to an X68K Valis II hack that controls half as good as the PC-98, I will bear his children.

[CrackTiger]

Okay, no more extreme blanket statements from Spooky without explanation, here is how these games actually play and what the differences actually are.

This will only cover the in-game stuff. Lots of cinemas are missing in the Mega Drive version, but what it includes is arguably the best of any 16-bit cartridge game.




General differences:


The PC Engine version has voice acting before each boss battle.

The players sprites and scrolling move much slower in the Mega Drive version.

In both the MD and PC Engine versions, the player sprite won't jump until fully landed. Slashing also requires timing. Both are fine soon after adjusting and suit the gameplay/stage design. While performing a series of consecutive jumps, for both high and normal, I missed more in the MD version, but it really does seem to just be a matter of getting used to not hitting jump again until you land.

Horizontal jumps seem harder to pull off in the MD version and the jumps look longer in the PCE version, but it's difficult to tell because of the slow speed of the MD version.

In the PC Engine version, if you use the full power of Yuko's sword slash, you cannot swipe again until the first projectile disappears or hits something. If you do this on an empty screen, it may seem like there is a delay between your first swing and a continued rapid swinging afterward, should you rapidly continue hitting the sword button. But in an actual gameplay situation, if you are wildly slashing at an enemy without strategy, the first projectile will reset upon impact, followed by consecutive slashes. If there is still distance between you and the enemy during the second slash, as it approaches you, then the time between impact and triggering the next slash with only be shorter. If you aren't timing your swings effectively and are just button mashing or using Turbo switches, then your attacks will always shoot the shortest projectile.

In the Mega Drive version, the sword slash projectile travels faster, but there is still the noticeable delay between a full powered slash and a consecutive fastest/shortest slash. Unfortunately, the MD version cuts off your projectile slash altogether should you button mash. This leaves your rapid swings completely useless until an enemy is already within collision distance to hurt you. Rapid fire in the PCE version still produces a projectile just long enough to hit an enemy before they're already walking over you.

Example: the very first fire breathing enemy of the first stage. If you are against the wall and facing the enemy and slash rapidly, you will not hit it, even though you and you sword swing are directly in-front of it. Rapid firing in the PCE version would damage an enemy that is further away than this.


MD: players share palette, HUD, explosions, misc enemy attacks and icons/powerups all share from same palette. This translates to flesh-colored explosions, lower-shade yellow coloring in-place of golden coloring on objects, some fire effects are just yellow. Yuko and Valna may be twins, but Cham takes a brutal hit using the same skin tones. Cham's sprite is also censored in the Genesis version.

MD: Player can turn left or right while crouching. Since the game wasn't designed around this being a feature, it doesn't have a use in the game, other than attempting to position yourself dangerously close to a static enemy. But chances are you will not be able to safely hit the enemy from that position because of the sword slash issues.

MD: It feels weird having to reach up to the start button to continue text and you'll often end up pausing and un-pausing the game a few times after each text segment finishes.


Holding down to slide feels most natural and should have been down + jump, while descending from platforms should have used an alternate command.





City Stage:

The thrilling bgm of the PCE version is slower and unenthusiastic in the MD version. The slow pace better matches the slower pace of the game, but it also lacks the intensity of the original and just feels unenthusiastic and more just obligatory. You can actually hear how the imaginary musician is struggling to pull off the solos.

Both have a gibberish far background.

PCE has mid-sized buildings and animated fiery sky.



MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:

New layers of parallax. Looks particularly nice in the first short section, where Yuko runs along in her pajamas.

Even though Yuko's pajama sprite is used in an isolated section, it still suffers from taking colors only from the shared player sprite palette.

While falling to catch the Sword of Valis, the skyscraper on the left looks like it's made of stone in the MD version.

Lots of lost color and variety in bg.

Water towers take a big hit and look too much like the background, as if it is missing vertical strips.

New enemy layout.

Blue insect moves slower.

Fire-breathing enemy's fire attack no longer looks like fire and is just a generic yellow taken from Yuko's sword slash colors. If you attack while ducking beneath the "fire" attack, you will take damage. Combined with the rapid fire issue of the Genesis version, this leads to you taking damage before you get a single projectile hit on the enemy, before you go back to swinging your sword hitting nothing but air, until you take another hit and repeating until one of you dies first.

Boss adds new difficult-to-dodge attacks, introducing "bullshit" moments. Nice graphical additions to the boss.

PCE version has a better neon sign with much more light animation and color.

Supposed to not be a real stage, so it's a waste to update the boss but not extend the stage, considering how much content is cut overall compared to the PCE version.






PC ENGINE EXCLUSIVE STAGE 1: Cliffs/Waterfall:

One of the nicest looking stages in the game and one of my favorite to play. Very nice color cycling effect on the waterfall.




Forest:


MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:

The bgm of this stage probably holds up second best compared to the original. Still loses that nice motivational pacing, but not tired sounding like the previous stage's bgm.

New layers of parallax, particularly effective in the forest segment. Some background assets are missing and some new ones are added and everything is touched up to balance the increase palette sharing. Looks very nice overall.

The insect enemy looks literally unfinished on PCE. It's very nice seeing it completed in the MD version.

The lake section is a pointless waste of space. Very little happens here and it was the kind of superfluous thing worth doing in a CD game. The artwork is very nice, but this and the forest section should have been greatly expanded or cut so that a proper gameplay section could have been included.

The lake section background takes a hit in color and shading. The (flesh-colored) boat, tower and boatman look unfortunate.

It's cool that the boss is segmented and flies around. Unfortunately it flies straight into the boat and introduces lots of exclusive "bullshit" moments as it is un-dodgeable and falling off of the boat means death. The boss also takes clashing shades from the background.





Tower Stage:

MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:

Blue background now scrolls independently. Some nice line scrolling during the brief horizontal segment.

Noticeable color recycling overall.

Insects added from missing stages lead to new "bullshit" moments.

Boss is even simpler than the PCE battle, but very nice upgrade to the artwork. Simplified fire columns.





PC ENGINE EXCLUSIVE STAGE 2: Aqueducts:

One of the nicest looking stages in the game. My favorite to play.






BELL RINGING:

MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:

Very nice variation of the bgm. Not as effective as the original, but doesn't feel too sedated either.

Why include these assets but not the stage?

Background and bell lose shades/color. Door no longer has its own palette. Neat that they used the alternating brick shades seen in the missing stage.





RAMP:


MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:

As with the rest of the soundtrack, it uses some nice Mega Drive sounds, but the best way to describe this take on the original is "sleepy".

Nice background addition with parallax to this superfluous section which also should have been cut.

In the PCE version the coin enemy's back says "TEAM RED ALERT". In the Genesis version it says "TELENET JAPAN".

Boss background is missing the stars.

In the following in-game cutscene, the background earth artwork is very nice, but a waste that it is different than the final boss battle background's earth artwork, since space was such an issue.





MD EXCLUSIVE STAGE: Robot Factory???

Bgm is solid, but way too slow.

Painfully generic "look I'm 16-bit!" background and stage. Lots of wasted space, meaningless platforms. Would look more at place in Ranger-X, but the minimal assets would only make up half the screen. Anti-Valis theme is an excuse to use the same simple palette on "robot" enemies.

Sliding background is distracting while trying to make out actual movement and platforming. Leads to plenty of "bullshit" moments.

Boss loses crucial sandpit mechanic, leads to unavoidable "bullshit" moments.





PCE EXCLUSIVE STAGE 3: Graveyard:

Lots of nice art and nice addition to the game's overall variety and a very-Valis theme. Plus, Rogless!





PCE EXCLUSIVE STAGE 4: Desert

Not polished enough visually, but fun to play and has some cool stuff like the giant rib bone platforming and sand pits.





ICE STAGE:

MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:

This bgm holds up best compared to the original.

Nice use of parallax, similar to the forest stage. Best background in the game as far as maintaining the color and shading of the original.

Snowflake enemy a nice addition, but leads to new "bullshit" moments. Particularly, the floating platform segments with spikes to leap over, while dodging both flying enemy types. Especially with Yuko's short slash in this version.

Missing the destructible ice blocks.

Boss's attacks are now massive unavoidable rapid fire sprays, huge jump from zero "bullshit" moments to constant "bullshit" moments. You pretty much have to just take damage to do damage and it's a race to the finish. Seems to be the origin of the poorly thought out short rapid slash. It may compensate as a defense, but you still fail to damage the boss when you use it.





RED TOWER:

MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:

The sounds used for the bgm are solid yet again, but this track is painfully slow, even for the pace of the MD game.

Disappointing downgrade in "foreground" artwork, but nice upgrade of artwork to far background.

The use of column scrolling in the vertical background breaks the parallax. The horizontal parallax was also a bad idea.

Enemies use generic looking shared palette, like System-16 Golden Axe, but they made very good use of it considering. The yellow worms using the player sprite palette is disappointing though.
 
Extra red enemies against the red background equals poor contrast.

"Spiny" from Super Mario Bros is missing.

Missing skull platforms.

Missing destructible blocks, but adds static foreground columns at the end.





FINAL BOSS BATTLES:


MEGA DRIVE CHANGES:

Very nice updated artwork for the Earth and Moon.

During the second form, the background only scrolls one direction horizontally. In the PCE version the background scrolls very fast in all directions.



FINAL BOSS 1st FORM:


MD: Moves towards you, while flame swords fly towards you all at once and cannot be dodged. Rapid slash can be used as defense, but you must take damage to do damage.

Shorter sword slash is super fast and flies along the floor. You have to jump over it before it appears to avoid damage. Way more "bullshit" moments.


PCE: Giant sword slash and medium sword slash, both of which you can slide under. Flame swords can be dodged or destroyed as they come towards you.



FINAL BOSS 2nd FORM:


MD: Same attacks, flame swords are now extra "bullshitty".

PCE: New dodgeable orb attack replaces the flame swords. Single type of tall green sword slash.






Bottomline:


PC Engine/TurboGrafx-16 versions have better controls, gameplay, stage design, more stages, more variety, better coloring and shading, faster and better pace, better music which compliments the faster more intense gameplay, more and better cinemas, voice acting... and most important of all: massively fewer "bullshit" moments.

The overall stage visuals are a mixed bag for both. Each have better artwork for some things, but not others. The MD/Genesis version has good parallax in most places but most of the sprites took a hit in color/shading and the best background visuals belong to PCE exclusive stages.

I've been arguing for years that the Mega Drive/Genesis version is under-appreciated, more polished and that they made a lot of nice additions to compensate a bit for everything that is lost. It still is a great game with great aesthetics and one of my favorites for any platform. But after taking a close look at both versions, the TurboGrafx-16/PC Engine version is much better in comparison than I previously believed from just playing one or the other every so often. It's just too bad that the PCE version didn't get that final polish that the MD version did. Still the definitive version and the most enjoyable, no question.

[Mathius]

Dammit, BT. I'm in bed already but seeing your post is drawing me back out from underneath these warm blankets to play some Valis III. Any version will do.

...dammit.

[esteban]

CrackTiger confirmed my points, but then he EXPANDED the scope. Damn. There is nothing I can add.

Oh, wait, I can add this tidbit:








TEAM RED ALERT.

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=15242

CHALLENGE: In that old thread, nobody had any suggestions for what U.C.V. stood for (cross in graveyard stage). Read my two suggestions and then tell me you have a much better solution.

[Psycho Punch]

Yuko, let me show you some fancy action now !!!

[ParanoiaDragon]

United Cross Variation, Universal Crevice Vernacular, Unitarian Cranberry Vagabonds, Ungulate Cursory Velociraptors, Uber Christmas Vinyl, Utterly Confused Vindicators, Urban Cabin Virgin, Uptown Cheapskate Vultures, ................

[ClodBusted]

Your charming vagina.

[esteban]

(U)ncle (C)ock's (V)agina

[Spooky]

Some final thoughts on the computer versions of Valis II.

MSX2

Couldn't bring myself to finish it, only got halfway. Runs noticeably slower than the others, and the scrolling is even more janky than the PC-98. The weakest of the lot by far.

PC-98

Controls the best out of the three, but unfortunately it's all for naught. The PC-98 was ill-equipped to handle demanding action games such as this, so while the earlier levels are easier than the X68K due to the improved controls, the extreme choppiness makes the later levels unbearable. Good luck dodging anything on those last couple stages; your best bet is to keep using the freeze spell before enemies have a chance to come on-screen.

That said, it does have the best soundtrack of any Valis game, bar none. So it's not completely without its merits.

X68000

I take back what I said about Valis I PCE being the closest this series ever came to achieving greatness. Valis II X68000 is the closest it ever came.

They royally goofed the floof with the jump physics and handling, so most people won't even bother getting past Stage 2. If you are able to suffer through that initial hurdle, you'll find a most enjoyable game waiting for you on the other side. There's no real platforming challenges after Stage 1, and by Stage 3 your HP meter will be adequately leveled up, so the sub-par controls are of little consequence. You can almost see the difficulty curve as being inverted from the PC-98; smooth sailing from the second half onward.

The later sections benefit greatly from the X68000's superior scrolling and added autofire. Goes without saying that it's the nicest looking of any version of Valis II, (perhaps of any Valis game period?) though the music is a slight step down from the PC-98. The changes they made to enemy placement and level design are all for the better. Basically, Valis II X68K gets everything right... except for the gameplay. Still, I'll have to concur that it's a standout game in the series, if not mainly for its ambitious nature.

[EmperorIng]

Damning praise? Ha!

I have to somewhat agree; I might like Valis II on the x68k more than Valis I PCE now, even with its bad jumping controls. Right you are in that the first two stages are the biggest hurdle to getting into the game, but aside from the labyrinthine castle level (stage 5), the game proceeds smoothly. The glitchy attack spam that happens whenever you are hit is both funny and useful for killing bosses in seconds.

I think I prefer the stronger, meatier synths of the x68k, but that's a bit subjective. I think it's probably the best Valis soundtrack, with PCE-CD Valis II coming in second place. The effort put into the game makes me think it was Telenet's attempt at making the next big hit; too bad they were Telenet or they might have succeeded.

It's a game that people who are ostensibly fans of the series owe it to themselves to play, and to wonder why the series didn't try to iterate on its design, instead favoring the bland PCE Valis II as the template for future games. Valis III, while enjoyably stylish, lacks its predecessor's intensity.

[esteban]

CONCLUSION: One of these years I will have to play the X68000 and PC-98 versions.

[escarioth]

i love valis but im not a great fan

but i really love the music back from the snes.
as for turbografx games, between the 2 i have here.
i really enjoyed valis II
but got myself stuck around the end of valis III ( harder then the previous one ._. )

so i will say that i like the III since its more challenging

[EmperorIng]

Just a bump to share a few thoughts on Valis IV.

Spooky said the game was "painfully average." My feeling is closer to "painfully frustrating." While there are occasional good moments within levels, I seem to remember many more instances of enemies popping into existence and knocking you into a pit, unless you had memorized their spawn point and planned accordingly.

Ultra long levels combined with damage sponge enemies, with a dash of slow and sometimes-unresponsive attack controls (Amu's bird often decides it wants to home in exclusively on the space above enemies) - oh boy. I have to LOL at anyone who says there is a "strategy" to the game. Yeah, maybe in the broadest sense of "move out of the way of an attack, retard," but Castlevania this is not. Hope you don't die (and thus be stranded on a boss with the weakest weapon and no magic) and mash II and slide out of the way (oh, make sure you have Reina because you'll want those sliding invincibility frames to abuse). My reward for this effort was a credits scene with a musical number that repeats the same four bars over and over again; this is in stark contrast to an otherwise excellent soundtrack.

I think if the game was shorter and had been better tweaked in difficulty and balance, it would be a much stronger title, but I guess that's a complaint you can lob at every entry.

I played every Valis game that matters, perhaps sans trying out the Famicom game or getting into the nitty-gritty of the Genesis ports. You can now use this official, indisputable quality chart to decide which of these games are worth not-buying-and-just-burning (answer: all of them).

//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//

UPPER QUALITY:
Valis II X68000
Valis I PCE-CD 

MIDDLING QUALITY:
Valis III PCE-CD 
Valis IV PCE-CD

LOW QUALITY:
Valis II PCE-CD

//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//

[grolt]

Just a bump to share a few thoughts on Valis IV.

Spooky said the game was "painfully average." My feeling is closer to "painfully frustrating." While there are occasional good moments within levels, I seem to remember many more instances of enemies popping into existence and knocking you into a pit, unless you had memorized their spawn point and planned accordingly.

Ultra long levels combined with damage sponge enemies, with a dash of slow and sometimes-unresponsive attack controls (Amu's bird often decides it wants to home in exclusively on the space above enemies) - oh boy. I have to LOL at anyone who says there is a "strategy" to the game. Yeah, maybe in the broadest sense of "move out of the way of an attack, retard," but Castlevania this is not. Hope you don't die (and thus be stranded on a boss with the weakest weapon and no magic) and mash II and slide out of the way (oh, make sure you have Reina because you'll want those sliding invincibility frames to abuse). My reward for this effort was a credits scene with a musical number that repeats the same four bars over and over again; this is in stark contrast to an otherwise excellent soundtrack.

I think if the game was shorter and had been better tweaked in difficulty and balance, it would be a much stronger title, but I guess that's a complaint you can lob at every entry.

I played every Valis game that matters, perhaps sans trying out the Famicom game or getting into the nitty-gritty of the Genesis ports. You can now use this official, indisputable quality chart to decide which of these games are worth not-buying-and-just-burning (answer: all of them).

//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//

UPPER QUALITY:
Valis II X68000
Valis I PCE-CD 

MIDDLING QUALITY:
Valis III PCE-CD 
Valis IV PCE-CD

LOW QUALITY:
Valis II PCE-CD

//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//

I liked reading that, thanks. Interesting that the best and worst game is both Valis II. What makes the ports so different?

[EmperorIng]

Read a few of the posts in the last couple of pages. Both games are completely different, made by different teams. All they share in common is the name and a few of the same characters.

[stinkoman]

Do the PC Engine versions require knowledge of Japaneses to play or is it pretty straight forward?

[Mathius]

Do the PC Engine versions require knowledge of Japaneses to play or is it pretty straight forward?

Unless you are interested in story details you'll be fine with the Japanese versions.

[EmperorIng]

You don't even get the complete series story in English anyhow, so you might as well just watch cutscenes on youtube if you are really in to it.

I actually suspect that despite their awful dubbing, the English Valis II and III are fairly faithful to their source material. Knowing the general outline of the games' plots, they probably just do a straight translation of all the game text (e.g. the flavor conversations pre-boss fight, cutscene text), except with NEC's famous in-house team of amateurs.

[esteban]

Just a bump to share a few thoughts on Valis IV.

Spooky said the game was "painfully average." My feeling is closer to "painfully frustrating." While there are occasional good moments within levels, I seem to remember many more instances of enemies popping into existence and knocking you into a pit, unless you had memorized their spawn point and planned accordingly.

Ultra long levels combined with damage sponge enemies, with a dash of slow and sometimes-unresponsive attack controls (Amu's bird often decides it wants to home in exclusively on the space above enemies) - oh boy. I have to LOL at anyone who says there is a "strategy" to the game. Yeah, maybe in the broadest sense of "move out of the way of an attack, retard," but Castlevania this is not. Hope you don't die (and thus be stranded on a boss with the weakest weapon and no magic) and mash II and slide out of the way (oh, make sure you have Reina because you'll want those sliding invincibility frames to abuse). My reward for this effort was a credits scene with a musical number that repeats the same four bars over and over again; this is in stark contrast to an otherwise excellent soundtrack.

I think if the game was shorter and had been better tweaked in difficulty and balance, it would be a much stronger title, but I guess that's a complaint you can lob at every entry.

I played every Valis game that matters, perhaps sans trying out the Famicom game or getting into the nitty-gritty of the Genesis ports. You can now use this official, indisputable quality chart to decide which of these games are worth not-buying-and-just-burning (answer: all of them).

//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//

UPPER QUALITY:
Valis II X68000
Valis I PCE-CD 

MIDDLING QUALITY:
Valis III PCE-CD 
Valis IV PCE-CD

LOW QUALITY:
Valis II PCE-CD

//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//

Mama Mia!

Of course strategy is involved. And enemies spawning at inconvenient times/places, which may "knock you down" is so broad it can be leveled at nearly every platformer. Yes, I know you meant: you were saying that Valis III has a lot of "cheap" moments. I think you just need to spend a little more time with Valis III. Have you replayed it?

SNARKY: I submit that you would level this critique ("it's cheap") at Super Mario Brothers, too, if you had only spent a little time playing SMB.

You mention that Valis III is "not Castlvania", yet both games exhibit the same type of platforming design+ enemy placement... But I'll go further, I will argue that Castlevania is MUCH MORE LIKELY to exhibit "cheap" moments (say, a tricky jump + winged creature, or a tricky jump + an enemy with a mid- to long-range attack) than Valis III.

Valis III's aqueduct stage is brilliant. I don't think it is cheap. It is all about strategy and executing some platforming skills (freeze + jump, repeat).

Then there are moments where you use *slide attack* to overcome  challenging platforming/enemy placement.

Perhaps you need to explore/experiment with slide attack/magic/different characters.

BORING/UNINSPIRED: Sure, some stages in Valis III are boring/uninspired...but the same is true for Castlevania. Stairs in Castlevania are lame and lead to many cheap moments. I love the Castlevania series, but let's be honest in our discussions.

BOTTOM LINE: There are enough charming/satisfying segments/stages in Valis III to praise it. And it certainly holds its own against the antics in Castlevania.

IF YOU ENJOY CASTLEVANIA, you can enjoy Valis III. 




LOVE: Please note that I am a huge Castlevania fan... But I acknowledge that it isn't everyone's cup of tea. I don't think  the classic Castlevania series is particularly cheap, but if you are going to level that charge against Valis III, then I certainly have to call you out for ignoring how Castlevania exhibits similar "problems"...

NOTE: I love reading all of your recent posts. You are playing the damn games and talking about them

We need more discussions like this.

[Medic_wheat]

Personally I am digging the SD Valis game for the Genesis.

[Mathius]

Personally I am digging the SD Valis game for the Genesis.

You may well be the only one. ;)

[Medic_wheat]

Personally I am digging the SD Valis game for the Genesis.

You may well be the only one. ;)

That's ok with me
What's can I say I just seem to dog those chibi games.

[CrackTiger]

I was shocked by how much I didn't like Syd of Valis the first time through. I thought that it would be pretty much a SD version of the Turbo Valis II, but it just wasn't any fun to play. Maybe if I spend more time with it will turn out to be better.

[blueraven]

I just realized something.

I've never, ever played any one of the Valis games... DAMN.

Just added them to my wishlist.

[esteban]

I just realized something.

I've never, ever played any one of the Valis games... DAMN.

Just added them to my wishlist.

Jesuschristo. Play one, goddammit.

I was shocked by how much I didn't like Syd of Valis the first time through. I thought that it would be pretty much a SD version of the Turbo Valis II, but it just wasn't any fun to play. Maybe if I spend more time with it will turn out to be better.

Agreed. I just don't find it particularly engaging, which is funny, because I give everything a chance.

I'm always willing to give it another chance...but at this point...

I actually like the cute chibi/SD designs! Most of the small, generic enemy designs have far more personality in Syd than in the original source material. What a shame...

Personally I am digging the SD Valis game for the Genesis.

You may well be the only one. ;)

Hjahahahahjajaha. I concur with Mathius.

However, to defend medic_wheat, I actually wanted and expected to enjoy Syd of Valis...so maybe my expectations led to "disappointment" that I would not otherwise have felt.

I'll give Syd another chance. Someday.

[Psycho Punch]

Telenet games mediocre-to-bad, sky blue, water wet

[Mathius]

Okay already! I'll give it another chance. *sigh* peer pressure

[esteban]

Okay already! I'll give it another chance. *sigh* peer pressure

I've been so harsh on the crappy Syd of Valis since it was released...

I feel like I am biased.

Also...peer pressure

[EmperorIng]

Bumping the Valis power-rankings because they are so right they deserve to be on a second page. I am messing around with the Mega-Drive/Genesis Valis game on emulator, and I kinda like it. It's way sloppier than the good PCE-CD remake, but it's sorta charming.

//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//

UPPER QUALITY:
Valis II X68000
Valis I PCE-CD 

MIDDLING QUALITY:
Valis III PCE-CD 
Valis IV PCE-CD

LOW QUALITY:
Valis II PCE-CD

//OFFICIAL VALIS POWER RANKINGS//

Of course strategy is involved. And enemies spawning at inconvenient times/places, which may "knock you down" is so broad it can be leveled at nearly every platformer. Yes, I know you meant: you were saying that Valis III has a lot of "cheap" moments. I think you just need to spend a little more time with Valis III. Have you replayed it?

I was talking more about my experiences with Valis IV, which suffers because it is a much longer game and enemies have way more health than they need to. Valis III has its problems but Valis IV magnifies them.

You mention that Valis III is "not Castlvania", yet both games exhibit the same type of platforming design+ enemy placement... But I'll go further, I will argue that Castlevania is MUCH MORE LIKELY to exhibit "cheap" moments (say, a tricky jump + winged creature, or a tricky jump + an enemy with a mid- to long-range attack) than Valis III.

The difference is that Castlevania gives you far more time to react. The enemies are spaced fairly and you are not forced to memorize stage layouts to the degree that you are in Valis. In the best CV games (X68000, CV1&3, etc.), a mixture of reflex and skill can get you out of nearly any situation. The attack animations are measured and consistent, and you and your enemies follow rules that are exacting, but ultimately fair.

This contrasts with Valis IV, which seems fond of placing you on a moving platform and activating a turret-enemy's debilitating attacks before he has even entered the screen. You are given less time to react, and thus skill is downplayed while memorization is brought to the forefront. And furthermore, Castlevania enemies that like to surprise you while jumping are usually one-hit-wonders, whereas the fetuses in Valis IV like to take upwards of 12 hits to kill - or soldiers with mid-range attacks 5 (or up to 8 if you are not powered up).

Valis III's aqueduct stage is brilliant. I don't think it is cheap. It is all about strategy and executing some platforming skills (freeze + jump, repeat).

It's novel, but requiring the use of freeze magic (and thus punishing the player by making them wait... slowly... for enemies that drop random refills gets old. It's very much something you need to do correctly, the first time, with little room for improvisation (especially with the huge knockback). I agree that it's a neat concept but it needs to give a lot more for the player to work with.

BORING/UNINSPIRED: Sure, some stages in Valis III are boring/uninspired...but the same is true for Castlevania. Stairs in Castlevania are lame and lead to many cheap moments. I love the Castlevania series, but let's be honest in our discussions.

Stairs -can- lead to frustrating moments, but it's a quirk of the series that has been proven through clever levels (the great tower stage in CV3) or giving players plenty of tools to react to situations. Climbing the stained-glass window tower in the Sharp X68000 Castlevania is no problem, even with pesky bats, because there are multiple routes through the section, and bats are never so strong or cumbersome as to be more than a whip-lash away from death.

NOTE: I love reading all of your recent posts. You are playing the damn games and talking about them

We need more discussions like this.

Thanks for the compliment; misery loves company and I love sharing my misery about frustrating games. I still don't hate the Valis series but as Punch pointed out, Telenet games are pretty infuriating in their sketchiness. I'm playing Travel Eple right now and am wondering why I bothered. 

[esteban]

^ EmperorIng: I did not realize you were also referring to Valis IV...yeah, IV was a letdown after III, for me.

I concur about the mediocrity of Telenet PCE titles...but I have a soft spot for them, nonetheless. I also tend to love the Telenet House Band responsible for the soundtracks. Composers/musicians/whatever...many Telenet games share a common feel/sound that I like.

Anyway, POWER RANKINGS.