Zeroigar Translation Thread

[SamIAm]

It's finally happening. Thanks to elmer's generous (and skilled!) hacking contributions, the Zeroigar translation is moving out of limbo and into reality.

The FMV is fully subtitled and working. The in-game text is fully translated, with a finalized English font and print routine, and it's all synchronized with the speech. The power-up screen that you see after dying or beating a level is all in English, thank goodness. Even the important text in the title screen is in English now!

It all works on real hardware and in Mednafen alike. The only things that remain are a couple of bits and pieces in the Normal/Trial mode screens.

Long ago, members here made mock-ups of the "Zeroigar" above the title screen.
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10837.msg204630#msg204630
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10837.msg204476#msg204476

There are a couple more places where artists could make English graphics. For example:


I think everything but the numbers there is actually just graphics, not printed text. Elmer will have to weigh in on the details, but if you are interested in helping, please let us know.

Also, I would like a few people to do play testing, preferably on real hardware. If you are interested, please let me know. I have a couple people lined up, but I'd like to get a couple more.

I shouldn't say we are going to be finished by any particular time, but we are very close. Stay tuned!


Zeroigar is a 2D vertical shooting game released in August 1997 for the PC-FX. In addition to its unusual RPG-style level-up system, its most outstanding characteristic is its excellent story told through anime FMV cutscenes.

The cover:


My partner elmer and I (with thanks to Esperknight) have fully subtitled all of the FMVs with hardsubs that work on real hardware, and there is zero quality lost in the image. This was possible for several reasons. The original video had 16 pixel tall black borders at the top and bottom. We essentially cropped off the top border, doubled the bottom border, and stuck the subtitles down there. Because the PC-FX's playback chip is JPEG based and can essentially display two JPEGs at once, and because there was enough bandwidth, we simply appended the subs to the original video as a separate video that plays at the same time. It looks quite nice, if I do say so myself.



Also, there are many in-game dialogues that are voiced with text. These text segments have all been converted to English, with the text color changed to yellow and timings carefully adjusted to make them easily readable.



The "level-up" screen that appears after you die or complete a stage, which contains vital information and gets in the way of non-Japanese speakers understanding the game more than anything else, is also fully translated.



Certain Japanese kanji do remain, such as in the title. We left these because we thought they were beautiful, and because the game itself is so Japanese that it's best for it to retain that aesthetic.

The title screen menus and other secondary menus have been translated.



...and there are other things in English that I'll let you find yourself.

The translation is essentially finished. We are currently working on a recreation of the manual in English, and a handful of friends are playtesting the game for us. We hope to release this on August 8th, the game's original release day. Being a week before the 70th anniversary of WWII's end is also highly appropriate as well. Can you see the bombed out ruins of Tokyo in that screenshot above?

This is a very special game, and I love it to death. We hope you'll all enjoy it when it's released!

[NightWolve]

Approved!

[NecroPhile]

Looking good!  It'll be nice knowing what's going on. 

[CPTBadAss]

So I really don't know much about PC-FX so please be gentle. When SamIAm finishes the translation, he'll put in on a CD or flash card and one could play it on the PC-FX? Or is this an emulator only kinda deal?

[SamIAm]

So I really don't know much about PC-FX so please be gentle. When SamIAm finishes the translation, he'll put in on a CD or flash card and one could play it on the PC-FX? Or is this an emulator only kinda deal?

The PC-FX does not have any kind of copy protection. All you'll have to do is burn an ISO, and you can play this on real hardware.

It also works in Mednafen. Unfortunately, Magic Engine-FX does not run the game properly. Also, beware that many keyboards are limited two pressing only two buttons at once, and this is often not enough for this game.

[16bitgium]

So awesome serious tumbs up!

[Kommando1981]

AWESOME NEWS!!!!

[Aggie Tsubi]

It's looking fantastic! Thanks so much for your hard work!

I definitely wanna play this on my PC-FX someday, but my house is currently being renovated so I don't think I could get my system pulled out in a timely enough manner to volunteer for playtesting. But I wish all you guys the best of luck in finishing it off!

[NecroPhile]

I'd volunteer to playtest, but I suck and you'd end up with testing of just the title screen, opening sequence, first level, and maybe up to the second level mid-stage boss (on a good day).

[SamIAm]

Anyone, and I mean anyone, can beat this game if they're willing to keep at it. And I'm not talking about the long term, either.

There are three things about Zeroigar's gameplay that I think non-Japanese players are prone to missing:

1. The points you earn are actually like experience points, and your ship levels up frequently throughout the game. That's what that starry black-background screen is all about. Every time you level up, you gain stronger shot power, more armor capacity, and more subweapon ammo capacity. Your level never goes down. If you keep playing indefinitely, you will level up until you are at god-like strength.

2. The powerups you collect during the stages give you more firepower in a sense, but this is different from the "Power" variable that goes up when you gain a level. The powerups you collect make you fire more bullets, but the "Power" stat that goes up with your level determines the strength of each individual bullet fired. If you're at Level 10, you're almost guaranteed to be stronger than you were at Level 1 even if you aren't firing as many bullets.

3. Use the Wind Cannon subweapon. Someone posted a clever walkthrough of Lords of Thunder that just said "Use the Earth Armor". This is similar. Anytime the enemies are getting thick, press that subweapon button. Just trust me, it works wonders. It doesn't drain very quickly, either.


So the moral of the story is, keep playing, because you will level up and get stronger, and just losing a bit of power because you got hit/died actually doesn't mean as much as you think it does.

[PunkCryborg]

Wow awesome news! Ive been a little turned off on the game partially because i didnt understand how to play it properly. I would be happy to test it out on my pcfx for you

[esteban]

I have been swamped with Real Life. Otherwise, I'd be playing this right now!

[mickcris]

Awesome.  I have played this game a bit, but it would be nice to know what was going on.  I had no clue what the different modes were on the title screen.

[elmer]

Awesome.  I have played this game a bit, but it would be nice to know what was going on.  I had no clue what the different modes were on the title screen.

Me, neither.

Before hacking the translation into the game, I had no idea of just how good it actually is, and how nice the story is.

I'm glad that when we're finished, a non-Japanese-speaking audience will finally get a chance to fully appreciate the game.

The "Normal Mode" translations are now in, and there's just the 2 "Trial Mode" screens to do.

I'll move further actual "development" talk into the "development" section ... where I'm hoping that someone will volunteer to help with a few of the art things that it would be nice to change.

[SuperPlay]

Great news, thanks for the update :-)

[elmer]

1. The points you earn are actually like experience points, and your ship levels up frequently throughout the game. That's what that starry black-background screen is all about. Every time you level up, you gain stronger shot power, more armor capacity, and more subweapon ammo capacity. Your level never goes down. If you keep playing indefinitely, you will level up until you are at god-like strength.

We're getting closer!

The Trial Mode screens are done, and I've been doing some clean-up tasks, like switching to a mixed-case font.

Here's the latest version of the "Repair" screen that you get when you die/finish a level.

So ... I have a question for everyone.

Sam has mentioned that the game relies heavily on the concept of "levels" and the accumulation of "experience points" that don't get reset when you die.

But ... I'm not loving the use of the abbreviation "Exp". I don't think that it fits particularly well on the screen, and it's difficult to make it look good on the game screen itself (that damned descender on the 'p').

Do gamers here find that calling the those points "Exp" instead of just "Points" actually makes it easier for people to understand how to play the game?

[Aggie Tsubi]

I think "Exp" looks okay on that screen. In the context of that screen, I think "Next Level Points" and "Current Points" would be clear, but without the "Next Level" I could see "Current Points" or just "Points" being confusing elsewhere, though. Like possibly confused with the player's score. (Or are the experience points the same as the player's score anyway?)

Would it maybe help to go with "XP" instead of "Exp"? Some RPGs use "XP" as an abbreviation for experience points.

[td741]

XP works well.

Would "Total" instead of "Current" (ie Total XP)  sound better? (Assuming that it the total overall and not the XPs generated on that level and that counter will reset later in the game session.)

[NecroPhile]

I'm with Aggie: Exp (or XP) is better than a generic 'points' which could be construed as score.

[elmer]

Hmmmm ... OK ... I'll keep on trying to get "Exp" to look decent on the game screen.

I agree with Sam's opinion in the development thread that 3 letters is better than 2 ... "LV" just doesn't seem like a good abbreviation for "Level", it really needs to be "Lvl".

[SamIAm]

You know, one thing that I've been thinking for a while but neglecting to mention is that "Next Level Exp" might as well just be "Next Level" or "Next Level Up". Somehow that looks a little better to me.

Would "Total" instead of "Current" (ie Total XP)  sound better? (Assuming that it the total overall and not the XPs generated on that level and that counter will reset later in the game session.)

It's not the total overall. It resets every time you level up.

[elmer]

You know, one thing that I've been thinking for a while but neglecting to mention is that "Next Level Exp" might as well just be "Next Level" or "Next Level Up". Somehow that looks a little better to me.

I really want to keep "Exp" on that line somewhere to hammer in the link between the "Exp" on the in-game display and that it's the thing that gives you the level upgrade.

Do you think that "Next level at Exp" works any better?

Would "Total" instead of "Current" (ie Total XP)  sound better? (Assuming that it the total overall and not the XPs generated on that level and that counter will reset later in the game session.)

It's not the total overall. It resets every time you level up.

I bet that you were in a rush when you typed that!

"Yes", it does go down ... but it's not actually a "reset", just a subtraction.

So if you've get up to 38,000 exp on a level, and the next level-up is at 25,000 exp, then you get the level-up, and still have 13,000 exp left to go towards the next level-up.

It helps to keep the number manageable when you get into the high level 20's and need millions of exp to get to the next level.

[SamIAm]

I really want to keep "Exp" on that line somewhere to hammer in the link between the "Exp" on the in-game display and that it's the thing that gives you the level upgrade.

Do you think that "Next level at Exp" works any better?

That's cool.

Next Level Exp is totally fine. I'd like to avoid using little words like prepositions. I was thinking about "Exp to Level Up" but I don't like it for that reason.

I bet that you were in a rush when you typed that!

"Yes", it does go down ... but it's not actually a "reset", just a subtraction.

So if you've get up to 38,000 exp on a level, and the next level-up is at 25,000 exp, then you get the level-up, and still have 13,000 exp left to go towards the next level-up.

It helps to keep the number manageable when you get into the high level 20's and need millions of exp to get to the next level.

Let's go with your "in a rush" idea. That sounds better than my first idea, "I'm a moron".

[elmer]

To give people an update ... we're nearly done!

There's just the in-game icons left to do, and then I think that we'll be ready for some testing.

Here are some of the recent screens ...

[SamIAm]

Every time I see some English working in the real game for the first time, it gives me a huge buzz. Hats off to elmer for digging deep and hacking everything you will need to play this game to its fullest.

It really is pretty much done at this point. We could release it right this instant and still have it look polished, but it's better if we get an extra thing or two in there and get a couple play-testers to go through it first.

By the way, if anyone has the manual for this game, it would be great if you could send me some photos of all the pages. As long as the text is legible, you don't have to worry about quality. There are a couple of names and terms I would like to make sure are consistent.

Does anyone know if "Super God Trooper" is the official translation of 超神兵器? Does it appear on any official materials? It sounds like someone just read the kanji characters straight across, so I expect that it's actually unofficial.

[NecroPhile]

By the way, if anyone has the manual for this game, it would be great if you could send me some photos of all the pages.

I can bring mine to work and scan it next week.

[Filler]

For what it's worth I did a bunch of Google searching last night and I don't seen any references to "Super God Trooper", or any other translation, in official materials.

Great to hear that this is coming along!

[SamIAm]

By the way, if anyone has the manual for this game, it would be great if you could send me some photos of all the pages.

I can bring mine to work and scan it next week.

Dang, that would be awesome. First the Steam Hearts manual, and now this.

If there's a nice story introduction and/or character descriptions, I'll write those up, too.

Thank you!

For what it's worth I did a bunch of Google searching last night and I don't seen any references to "Super God Trooper", or any other translation, in official materials.

Great to hear that this is coming along!

That's good to hear. It wouldn't surprise me if the creators had no interest in making an English alternate title, given both the system of release and the extreme Japanese-ness of this game.

I think there weren't any PCE/PC-FX mags still in publication when this came out, so if it isn't in the manual, I think we're safe. Thanks!

[elmer]

The new icons are working in the game! 

 

[esteban]

The new icons are working in the game! 

GORGEOUS!

[chadti99]

Can't wait for this guys, thanks for all of your hard work!

[Aggie Tsubi]

It's looking sharp, guys! I'm cheering you on!

[xcrement5x]

Just saw this thread, this is looking awesome!

[SamIAm]

WANTED: Someone with Photoshop (or any nice graphic editor) skills who could help me throw together a PDF-style instruction manual for Zeroigar here. This would not be a recreation of the original manual, but rather something akin to a FAQ with graphics in it. Actually, I would like to avoid having it be formatted like real manuals at all in order to deter bootleggers

I will supply the text and the in-game graphics. Your job will be to make stuff look pretty.

Any takers?

[elmer]

You can probably guess by SamIAm's call for help with the FAQ that we're getting really close now and just polishing everything up to be as good as possible.

Seriously folks ... having a real artist doing the FAQ would be great ... don't make me fumble about in Word or, worse, InDesign!

While waiting for volunteers ... here's an update on the latest in-game changes.

The speech text has been moved over so that it doesn't get lost against the speaker's picture, and I've experimented with changing the color of the speech so that it doesn't get so lost against the white in the background.

We've also disabled the SEL+RUN soft-reset from within the game itself because it's too easy to do it accidentally and lose hours of gameplay.

Changing the text color is definitely not set in stone ... so please let us know if you think that it's an improvement or just an abomination (you can compare it to the white text in last week's post).

[esteban]

You can probably guess by SamIAm's call for help with the FAQ that we're getting really close now and just polishing everything up to be as good as possible.

Seriously folks ... having a real artist doing the FAQ would be great ... don't make me fumble about in Word or, worse, InDesign!

While waiting for volunteers ... here's an update on the latest in-game changes.

The speech text has been moved over so that it doesn't get lost against the speaker's picture, and I've experimented with changing the color of the speech so that it doesn't get so lost against the white in the background.

We've also disabled the SEL+RUN soft-reset from within the game itself because it's too easy to do it accidentally and lose hours of gameplay.

Changing the text color is definitely not set in stone ... so please let us know if you think that it's an improvement or just an abomination (you can compare it to the white text in last week's post).

I would be happy to do this if there are no other takers.

I Would like to hear suggestion of the format (size), though, so we make it difficult for someone to make an instruction manual out of it (if that is still a goal).

[SamIAm]

You can probably guess by SamIAm's call for help with the FAQ that we're getting really close now and just polishing everything up to be as good as possible.

Seriously folks ... having a real artist doing the FAQ would be great ... don't make me fumble about in Word or, worse, InDesign!

While waiting for volunteers ... here's an update on the latest in-game changes.

The speech text has been moved over so that it doesn't get lost against the speaker's picture, and I've experimented with changing the color of the speech so that it doesn't get so lost against the white in the background.

We've also disabled the SEL+RUN soft-reset from within the game itself because it's too easy to do it accidentally and lose hours of gameplay.

Changing the text color is definitely not set in stone ... so please let us know if you think that it's an improvement or just an abomination (you can compare it to the white text in last week's post).

I would be happy to do this if there are no other takers.

I Would like to hear suggestion of the format (size), though, so we make it difficult for someone to make an instruction manual out of it (if that is still a goal).

Esteban! That would be great! Seriously, it's either you, or it's me and MS paint.

You know, I think just formatting it so that the pages are vertically long is enough. Seriously, just A4 proportions is all we can do. In the end, it's not much of a deterrent, but I just don't want someone to get the bright idea to print these out and sell them in jewel cases. As long as the general structure is such that it can't easy be squished into a square (or whatever rectangle it is that CD liner note pages have), that's fine. Putting a lot of info on one page is a good way to guarantee that.

I'll PM you soon. Many things are happening.

[esteban]

You can probably guess by SamIAm's call for help with the FAQ that we're getting really close now and just polishing everything up to be as good as possible.

Seriously folks ... having a real artist doing the FAQ would be great ... don't make me fumble about in Word or, worse, InDesign!

While waiting for volunteers ... here's an update on the latest in-game changes.

The speech text has been moved over so that it doesn't get lost against the speaker's picture, and I've experimented with changing the color of the speech so that it doesn't get so lost against the white in the background.

We've also disabled the SEL+RUN soft-reset from within the game itself because it's too easy to do it accidentally and lose hours of gameplay.

Changing the text color is definitely not set in stone ... so please let us know if you think that it's an improvement or just an abomination (you can compare it to the white text in last week's post).

I would be happy to do this if there are no other takers.

I Would like to hear suggestion of the format (size), though, so we make it difficult for someone to make an instruction manual out of it (if that is still a goal).

Esteban! That would be great! Seriously, it's either you, or it's me and MS paint.

You know, I think just formatting it so that the pages are vertically long is enough. Seriously, just A4 proportions is all we can do. In the end, it's not much of a deterrent, but I just don't want someone to get the bright idea to print these out and sell them in jewel cases. As long as the general structure is such that it can't easy be squished into a square (or whatever rectangle it is that CD liner note pages have), that's fine. Putting a lot of info on one page is a good way to guarantee that.

I'll PM you soon. Many things are happening.

MEGA-sized DELUXE instruction manual for a DEEEEELUXE game.

I love that idea.

 

Zeroigar will crush all.

[NecroPhile]

You could make it the size of the big box PC-FX game manuals. 

[esteban]

You could make it the size of the big box PC-FX game manuals. 

Hell yeah.

 

[elmer]

You know, I think just formatting it so that the pages are vertically long is enough. Seriously, just A4 proportions is all we can do. In the end, it's not much of a deterrent, but I just don't want someone to get the bright idea to print these out and sell them in jewel cases. As long as the general structure is such that it can't easy be squished into a square (or whatever rectangle it is that CD liner note pages have), that's fine. Putting a lot of info on one page is a good way to guarantee that.

To be honest ... I'm not convinced that that'll be much of a deterrent.

Let's be clear here ... the primary person that comes to mind when we're talking about bootlegs is Tobias and his PCE Memories.

There are currently no PC-FX Memories ... but some day he'll run out of PCE games to bootleg, and Zeroigar sells for well north of $200 on eBay already, so it's a potential target.

My feeling is that we don't actually discourage that kind of bootlegging by making it harder for him to take any FAQ/manual ... he's not going to do that anyway. He's already got a "company" art style and process in place to produce his admittedly-lovely manuals ... he doesn't need our stuff.

It's like tobacco use ... attacking the companies and making smoking more difficult by raising the prices both did very little. Smoking only really started to drop off when the customers started turning away from it because it wasn't "cool" anymore, or for "health" reasons.

In a similar fashion ... IMHO, the only way to really discourage bootlegging is to make it really, really easy for people to put together a translated Zeroigar package that looks as professional as Tobias would do. That devalues his product.

IMHO ... that's the only way to stop him or people like him ... make it not worth his while by taking away a significant chunk of his potential market.

So I'd like to see a professional looking manual and case insert that people can print out at Kinkos, or buy here or somewhere else online at cost. Professional looking lightscribe and inkjet templates that people can use at home. Make it so that what he offers isn't worth the $50 or more to his potential "customer".

I'd quite like to see a community-supported pressing of a for-sale-at-cost CD ... but that is almost certainly going too far. It raises too many legal boogeymen to do in the USA.

Anyway ... it's another perspective.

Comments?

[SamIAm]

I believe that at one point, someone was illegitimately selling Ys IV CD-Rs that were a very far cry from what Tobias has been making. There is probably no shortage of enterprising folks who would be perfectly happy to burn a disc, print a manual, and sell it for a modest profit.

I love this community, and I would be happy for anyone who would like a pretty disc and manual to have one. However, it seems a very slippery slope. If we make and sell a CD, then who are we to say that someone else shouldn't? I don't think that talking about profit margins would convince bootleggers that we aren't hypocrites.

Call me crazy, but I think we should contact Tobias and tell him preemptively that we don't want him to make a bootleg of Zeroigar. Naturally, that won't necessarily mean he won't do it, but it does mean that he would tarnish his reputation further if he went through with it. If we wrote an open letter and made a bunch of noise, he would probably feel obliged to reply, too.

It's like tobacco use ... attacking the companies and making smoking more difficult by raising the prices both did very little. Smoking only really started to drop off when the customers started turning away from it because it wasn't "cool" anymore, or for "health" reasons.

In a similar fashion ... IMHO, the only way to really discourage bootlegging is to make it really, really easy for people to put together a translated Zeroigar package that looks as professional as Tobias would do. That devalues his product.

I think that no matter what we provide, most people either aren't going to be able to put together a nice-looking home-made game, or they aren't going to want to try. That is exactly where a bootlegger could say "Hey there! Scared to try this on your own? Check out what I made! Yours for ($$$)."

Making bootlegging uncool is definitely the key, but I think the most effective way to do this would be to adopt an unwavering and vocal stance against it. Consider that Gideon Zhi of Aeon Genesis, by far the most prolific fan-translator programmer to ever do it, has barely said a thing even though he's against repros. I've looked for statements from him, and all I can find is this one forum post. I haven't dug too deeply, but searching a few other famous names hasn't turned up much either.

Until now, it seems that most fan translators have only put a little notice in the readme that says "Don't distribute this with the ROM and don't take credit for our work." I haven't seen anyone really come out swinging at bootlegers at the time of a release. We could do that.

There's plenty to think about and debate, that's for sure.

For a little perspective, you might enjoy looking through this thread and the other threads linked within it.
http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,17617.0.html

[esteban]

I see both elmer's and Sam's perspective.

I will do whatever we ultimately/jointly decide.

I like the idea of creating a large-format manual/poster (simply because it is kool).

I could easily create a standard-sized version of the manual as well.

COMPROMISE: I think we could have a blurb, tastefully placed in the manual, that simply educates folks about DIY ethics. As I have said in past discussions, the punk/indie bands in the 80's knew that their records would eventually end up in mainstream shops at grossly inflated prices, so they attempted to educate the "ignorant" consumer with basic info ("Pay no more than ____ for this record. You can buy it cheaper here ____________ because _____________.")

We could be even simpler on our Public Service Announcement:

We could simply put a hyperlink to a webpage, so the motivated consumer could find out more about fan-produced video game projects and DIY ethics.






I guess my own sympathies lean towards elmer's approach to bootleggers...we have to (1) educate folks and (2) make it easy to create nice stuff without need for profiteering bootlegger.

I like the DIY spirit of our community, since it is empowering to produce stuff on your own. That's why I made this page:

https://www.tg-16.com/print_your_own_stuff.htm

If you suck at crafts, have a friend who has more skills print/assemble it for you!

[SamIAm]

I could definitely get behind a strong DIY push. We could make a CD-case-size manual with the first page dedicated to an anti-bootleg, pro-DIY message.

Printing and selling our own discs, even if only at-cost, on the other hand, I fear would have the reverse effect of what we want.

Let it be known that no matter what happens, I'm not going to take my ball and go home. In the end, I want to see games in English. I also know you guys have the best intentions. I just hope we can stay clean on the ethics side of things.

[NecroPhile]

IMHO ... that's the only way to stop him or people like him ... make it not worth his while by taking away a significant chunk of his potential market.

It's PC-FX, so is there really a market anyway?  NEC did the job for you! 

Making bootlegging uncool is definitely the key...

Maybe for you, but there's plenty of people here (including translators/hackers) that have no problem with bootlegs when max profit gougetards are removed from the equation.

[elmer]

There is probably no shortage of enterprising folks who would be perfectly happy to burn a disc, print a manual, and sell it for a modest profit.

Where there is a market ... there will be someone who will take the opportunity to cater to that market. IMHO, that's basic human history.

Back in the 80's there were plenty of market stalls with bootlegged copies of home computer games on tapes and discs ... right next to the bootlegged music tapes.

Publishers used to send people around to spot the sellers and get the police to confiscate the counterfeit copies.

Those sellers just moved somewhere else for a while, then came back in a few weeks.

The only things that have changed over the years are the products, and the venue ... the sellers and their customers are still the same.

Call me crazy, but I think we should contact Tobias and tell him preemptively that we don't want him to make a bootleg of Zeroigar. Naturally, that won't necessarily mean he won't do it, but it does mean that he would tarnish his reputation further if he went through with it.

That seems worth doing, as he does seem to have been putting in a fair bit of effort to gain a good reputation with his target market (who don't know/care about the source of his "memories").

I think that no matter what we provide, most people either aren't going to be able to put together a nice-looking home-made game, or they aren't going to want to try. That is exactly where a bootlegger could say "Hey there! Scared to try this on your own? Check out what I made! Yours for ($$$)."

Agreed, there will be lots of people like that ... and there always will be ... and if there are enough of them that want something enough to pay for it, then someone will appear to sell it to them.

We can't stop that, in the same way that companies haven't been able to stop bootlegged music, counterfeit perfume, watches, jeans, etc.

But we can do something for those people that are willing to make some effort, but don't have the talent to make it look nice by themselves.

Making bootlegging uncool is definitely the key, but I think the most effective way to do this would be to adopt an unwavering and vocal stance against it.

Hahaha ... that strategy hasn't proved to be particularly effective against drugs, teen smoking, teen sex, speeding on the highways, cheating on taxes, etc! 

But you're absolutely right ... the stance does need to be taken.

I love this community, and I would be happy for anyone who would like a pretty disc and manual to have one. However, it seems a very slippery slope. If we make and sell a CD, then who are we to say that someone else shouldn't? I don't think that talking about profit margins would convince bootleggers that we aren't hypocrites.

Hahaha ... I think that we've already both got a foot on that slippery slope, and that the ground is already shaking somewhat in regards to hypocrisy ... when it's clear from the nature of the questions in our posts that neither of us owns an original copy of Zeroigar! 

But your basic point is absolutely right, and I actually lost sleep thinking about this some more ... there's a line here that I personally don't want to cross.

I don't want to have any sales of the translated Zeroigar CD that uses my code that doesn't have the agreement of all the parties that are involved, specifically including the original copyright holders ... that goes against the nature of what we've tried to do here.

Printing and selling our own discs, even if only at-cost, on the other hand, I fear would have the reverse effect of what we want.

Agreed, you're right. I was wrong to suggest it as a possibility. Take it as a momentary lapse in judgement. 

For a little perspective, you might enjoy looking through this thread and the other threads linked within it.
http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,17617.0.html

Thank you, that's an interesting thread!

I think that the one post that stood out to me was from tomaitheous (aka Bonknuts, here) ...

Did a lot of work to get Megaman up and running on the PCE. A ~lot~ of hours went into that. Of course, I never intended to sell any of them; I don't own the rights to the material that is Capcom's. But it did suck, knowing someone else was making money off my work. I was offered money (share) or if I wanted it removed. I declined the money; there's no way I could take it even if I wanted to.

I think that that's exactly how we both feel about the Zeroigar translation.

One could easily make a case/manual/cart - but leave the cart shell empty. Let the people that want the translated game, in a nice fancy case, buy a flash card and put it in the new cart themselves.

I think that the closest that we're likely to get is to actually make the files for the manual/inserts/etc available, and know that we've given people a way to produce a great version for themselves if they're willing to put in the minimal effort.

It does make it easier for Joe SixPack to just burn/print a few copies and sell them on eBay ... but if we have a nice PDF manual with a page or two on the issues of for-profit-bootlegging in it, then I think that we're doing as much as we can to educate the fraction of end-users that will accept the message.

At the end of the day, I'd like people to be able to put together a professional-looking package of the game that really showcases for English-only speakers what it is that the original developers created, and all the hard work that we've put into translating it.

I hope that we can focus more on those good people who will appreciate and enjoy the contribution of everyone who was involved in making the game, rather than aim our focus on those selfish folks who will take advantage of the situation for their own profit.

[elmer]

I like the idea of creating a large-format manual/poster (simply because it is kool).

I could easily create a standard-sized version of the manual as well.

COMPROMISE: I think we could have a blurb, tastefully placed in the manual, that simply educates lks about DIY ethics. As I have said in past discussions, the punk/indie bands in the 80's knew that their records would eventually end up in mainstream shops at grossly inflated prices, so they attempted to educate the "ignorant" consumer with basic info.

Something along those lines sounds good to me!

If we were to move forward in this direction, then are there large-format cases easily available?

I'd kind of hate to have to take apart an exisiting PC-FX game just to use the box.

I guess my own sympathies lean towards elmer's approach to bootleggers...we have to (1) educate folks and (2) make it easy to create nice stuff without need for profiteering bootlegger.

I like the DIY spirit of our community, since it is empowering to produce stuff on your own. That's why I made this page:

https://www.tg-16.com/print_your_own_stuff.htm

I hadn't seen that, it's a very cool page!

Now I'll have to go an print some of those out for my TurboDuo games.   

That's exactly the sort of thing that I was thinking of.

Making bootlegging uncool is definitely the key...

Maybe for you, but there's plenty of people here (including translators/hackers) that have no problem with bootlegs when max profit gougetards are removed from the equation.

We all get to decide where we draw our own line on what is basically the unauthorized and illegal duplication of copyrighted works ... whether they're seen as "abandoned" or not.

I think that, at the end of the day, SamIAm and I have pretty similar opinions ... but IMHO, others are welcome to have different ones, and it's all shades-of-grey.

We all agree that the max-profit guys are the ones that are well into the "black", and should to be avoided.

[Filler]

Something worth considering. I recently suggested specifying a Creative Commons license for translation patch releases (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/) such as "Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs CC BY-NC-ND" or "Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike CC BY-NC-SA" on another forum.

Info on marking a work with a CC license: https://wiki.creativecommons.org/Markin ... CC_license

and specifically marking a derivative work:
https://wiki.creativecommons.org/Markin ... ative_work

[elmer]

Something worth considering. I recently suggested specifying a Creative Commons license for translation patch releases (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/) such as "Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs CC BY-NC-ND" or "Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike CC BY-NC-SA" on another forum.

Thanks for the links and the suggestion. I'm sure that there are lots of very long debates on this subject on romhacking.net and many other forums. 

The CC "BY-NC-ND" or potentially the CC "BY-NC-SA" (if I go ahead and release my part of the project as Open Source) seem like basically good licenses ... but ...

Lawyers love vague wording based upon intent ... it furnishes them with big houses and shiny cars.

The CC NonCommercial clause (the legalcode version, which is the only one that actually counts) defines NonCommercial as ...

NonCommercial means not primarily intended for or directed towards commercial advantage or monetary compensation. For purposes of this Public License, the exchange of the Licensed Material for other material subject to Copyright and Similar Rights by digital file-sharing or similar means is NonCommercial provided there is no payment of monetary compensation in connection with the exchange.

Apart from the consideration that we're much more concerned with the physical reproduction of games for commercial purposes than charging for downloads ... isn't "primarily intended" just a bit too vague and open to interpretation?

For instance ... taking PCEWorks as an example, just because they're the easiest to point to that people here know ... PCEWorks says "For The Love Of It" right on the front page of the website.

He's preserving gaming history, right? He's just charging what he needs to to cover the costs of making those beautiful boxes and manuals and trinkets that the YouTube "reviewers" are swooning over ... and honestly, the actual CDs are pretty much put in for free. Look, he's even given away CDs to people that have asked, and payed for the shipping! He's a paragon of virtue, a true shining knight in a world of crass commerce!

Anybody is free to feel that PCEWorks may really be "primarily intended" for "monetary compensation", but it'll cost you $1000/hr to get someone to argue that "intent".

<sigh>

But some legalese needs to be put in, and perhaps the public perception of the intent is all that's needed to curtail the worst of what the community feels is "profiteering" ... whatever that means in people's minds and different circumstances.

[elmer]

Some more updates and pictures ...

We'd missed one of the Trial Mode results screens ... so that had to be fixed.

We're still playing around with the text to try to get it more readable on certain levels, like the one below.

If you look carefully, you'll also see that the Weapon Power icon has changed a little.

Basically ... polish, polish, polish.